Resist capped Brute vs Def Capped Bruts

I recently read some logic on one of these pages which stated Def soft capped brutes would take less damage then a resist capped brute. They were speaking on Avs and Ae missions.
The logic was simplisticly flawed. The major flaw was it presumed the mobs in question would hit the 0 def brute 90 resist brute 100 percent of the time. Mobs base to hit is 75 percent and adjust by level but do cap at 95 percent so ever persuming a super Av with 95 percent to hit resist brute would still be missed 5 percent of time. While Defense capped brute with no Resists would still get damaged 7.5.

Granted no brutes had 0 resists and very few have 0 def.

I am curious as to parses if anyone has done them.

Thanks
DevilPrince.

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I find paper calculations about survivability, in general, to be flawed. The best source of information is obtained from experience and playing the game.

In this example, just run hero stats while 1 brute is softcapped with zero resistance (use lucks) and another is capped to resis with zero def (use sturdies). Do this about 50 times and record your results.

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I recently read some logic on one of these pages which stated Def soft capped brutes would take less damage then a resist capped brute. They were speaking on Avs and Ae missions.
The logic was simplisticly flawed. The major flaw was it presumed the mobs in question would hit the 0 def brute 90 resist brute 100 percent of the time. Mobs base to hit is 75 percent and adjust by level but do cap at 95 percent so ever persuming a super Av with 95 percent to hit resist brute would still be missed 5 percent of time. While Defense capped brute with no Resists would still get damaged 7.5.

Granted no brutes had 0 resists and very few have 0 def.

I am curious as to parses if anyone has done them.

Thanks
DevilPrince.

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The highlight part is just plain wrong.

Mob base to-hit is 50% until you're dealing with +6s; instead the mob gets an accuracy modifier. With 0 defense against an even-level AV (1.5x modifer), that becomes 75%, but it's not 75% for Bosses (1.3x), Lieutenants (1.15x), or Minions (1.0x).

And in your case of a to-hit capped AV, the Brute would be taking 0.95 (percent of incoming attacks that hit) * 0.10 (damage taken per attack that hits) or 9.5% of the potential damage; the defense capped Brute (which would need at least 14% additional defense above the 45% softcap to have the same scenario, since 63.3% to-hit will become 95% after AV accuracy modifiers) would take 7.5%.

The only thing that sounds flawed is your understanding.

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The highlight part is just plain wrong.

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I wholeheartedly agree. It's in red. And red is terrible on these boards. Use a bold yellow .

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bold yellow .

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fabulous. ; )

and out of curiosity, what is the resist cap? i don't play brutes : p

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90% Res for Brutes.

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bold yellow .

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fabulous. ; )

and out of curiosity, what is the resist cap? i don't play brutes : p

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Same as Tankers - 90%.

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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm

The Point is the 90 resist brute would take 10 percent damage minus whatever the miss rate would be of the mobs. A capped defense brute would still take the 7.5 percent damage. While it looks like 10 percent damage is more then 7.5 def it does not take into account that the 90 resist brute is still being missed a decent percentage of the time.

Devilprince

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He does have a point, against mobs with really high accuracy the resist capped brute takes less damage than the defense capped brute, in all other cases they take the same amount. The cutoff point is 90% accuracy. This due to the 95% toHit cap. I'm not sure what kind of accuracy AVs have though, I think it's less.

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All of this does not take into account a concept called "probability of ruin", which I think is applicable here.

The quesion is about survivability.

If you chip away at a Res capped Brute, he'll survive quite a while, regening damage along the way.

If you hit a Def capped Brute, he'll take the full brunt of the damage. If another unlucky roll hits soon (soon meaning, before enough HP is regenerated), you have a dead Brute.

So the question isn't about average damage taken over time, it's about surviving over that time.

I haven't done any real analysis of this. Intuitively, it "feels" like the Res capped Brute will survive more often than the Def capped one.

I'll be getting some Monte Carlo simulation software installed soon, I just may play around with it to delve into this when I get it.

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it's pretty damn hard for non-invuln brutes to hit that resist cap

but willpower can hit 60% easily, and usuallyi can get close to 30% def to all typed dmg at the same time - while having really really good regen

you can have all the def and resist in the world, but when the hit does get through you gotta do something with it right?

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The Point is the 90 resist brute would take 10 percent damage minus whatever the miss rate would be of the mobs. A capped defense brute would still take the 7.5 percent damage. While it looks like 10 percent damage is more then 7.5 def it does not take into account that the 90 resist brute is still being missed a decent percentage of the time.

Devilprince

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And if there are Defense Debuffs/Resistance Debuffs? Resistance builds will take the entire Brunt and dual-mitigation will take some as well - My Crab DETESTED Longbow Nullifiers, but my DM/EA Brute strolls into 3 or 4 of them without batting an eye.

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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm

Lets go this way:
Cimoreans and thier -Def and Longbow with -Resist.

Cimoreans with -Def will eventually be at 95% to hit the resist capped brute, but the Def capped brute will remain at very low toHit chance because most +Def powers comes with DefDebuff resist. So there is little increase in damage to the +Def brute but almost double damage to resist capped brute.

Longbow with -Res wont hit the now Resist debuffed Def capped brute any more than before, so even if you -100% resist the Def brute, its only a damage doubler. Against the Resist capped brute, something as low as a 15% resist debuff is a 150% increase in damage taken. a 100% resist debuff is a 1100% (11x) increase in damage taken.

So its really contextual as to which is more effective. Without player debuffs, the Resist Capped will give you better milage, but when debuffs come into play, Def capped will perform better.

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Tanker Tuesday #72 Oct 5 @Champion

"I am not sure if my portrayal of being insane is accurate, but damn its fun all the same."

Overall having caped resists is about the same as caped defense. They perform the same mathmatically. Defense does better with controls/debuffs that are not auto hit since they can be avoided, while resists does not have to deal with the random number generator to survive.

The only real reason to want defense over resists I can think of is the defense is far easier to cap.

Also Darkside, I am not at home, and will check when I get home, but I always thought resistance always resisted resist debuffs, unless flagged unresistable. Which was why resists based sets hated nullifiers since theirs were unresistable.

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Dirges

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The Point is the 90 resist brute would take 10 percent damage minus whatever the miss rate would be of the mobs. A capped defense brute would still take the 7.5 percent damage. While it looks like 10 percent damage is more then 7.5 def it does not take into account that the 90 resist brute is still being missed a decent percentage of the time.

Devilprince

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Standard "base" to-hit rate of 50% and it's a wash.

Brute with 90% resistance and 0% defense.<ul type="square">[*]Minion: 50% chance to hit for 10% damage; 5% of potential damage.[*]Lieutenant: 57.5% chance to hit for 10% damage; 5.75% of potential.[*]Boss: 65% chance to hit for 10% damage, 6.5% of potential damage.[*]AV: 75% tohit for 10% damage, 7.5% of potential damage.[/list]
Soft-capped defense and 0% resistance:<ul type="square">[*]Minion: 5% chance to be hit for 100% damage; 5% of potential damage.[*]Lieutenant: 5.75% chance to be hit for 100% damage, 5.75% of potential damage.[*]Boss: 6.5% chance to be hit for 100% damage, 6.5% potential damage.[*]AV: 7.5% chance to be hit, 7.5% of potential incoming damage.[/list]
Now, throw in a to-hit buff (15%) and you end up with the 9.5% of potential damage coming in on the resistance Brute (6.5% from a minion), and the defense Brute can possibly be taking 30% from an AV (20% from a minion) or if you have the extra defense to cover it, the exact same numbers as before.

Defense debuffs can work similarly and are more common, but are resisted by defense sets. Also, defense is easier to come by via Lucks than resistance can be come by via Sturdies.

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No matter how hard you try, HP regen must be factored unless heavy debuffs are employed to neuter regeneration.

You'd really be looking at resist values + regen versus defense values +regen. 90% resistance wins against everything within reason due to better synergy here.

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No matter how hard you try, HP regen must be factored unless heavy debuffs are employed to neuter regeneration.

You'd really be looking at resist values + regen versus defense values +regen. 90% resistance wins against everything within reason due to better synergy here.

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Against Longbow? Not Likely - Spec Ops have their EMP Grenade for -1200% Regen.

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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm

Yes, that MOB would be one of the reasons I qualified my statement by mentioning debuffs.

One thing to consider: 90% resistance has 90% debuff resistance. 45% defense has variable debuff reistance based upon secondary. That's a significant advantage for resistance toons.

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hmmm Granite Armor for the win?

well Granite Armor + a huge amount of recharge for the win.

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InidiousX - lvl 50 Ill/Rad Controller
Black-Talon - lvl 50 DM/SR Scrapper
Night-Blade - lvl 50 Katana/Dark Screapper
Bone-Shredder - lvl 50 SOA
Red-Phantom - lvl 50 Elec/SR Brute

All on Champion!

Factoring darkest night to either a resist build or a def build is going to have a huge effect. Its a great debuff for brutes, although heavy on end but with a pricy build you can maintain it easy enough.

Well looks like on paper they take the same damage. Neither cap taking less or more damage. Points noted on the regen factor and ruin risk factor though. But thats seems to be balance by easy of build. Soft capping def a bit easier then getting that resist cap.

Devilprince

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But how hard is it to cap resistance on a brute without granite?

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To the OP, and from PERSONAL experience over the last 5 years of playing this game, capped defense (50%+ for safety) is definately better than capped resistance (90% cap).


The reason being?


Simple. On my defense capped "Brute" I'm being missed by several upon several types of "debuffs, mez's, damage types" and whatever else is might be coming my way. Even if a defense debuff "does" hit, my resistance to defense debuffs with provide enough "resistance" to them, that I'm still sitting with a pretty hefty amount of +defense, which means that a "second or third" defense debuff is alot less likely to land in succession. Also, -res powers which do happen to hit end up affecting me very little due to me not relying on "+res" for survivability in the first place. On top of that, same as with the defense debuffs, thanks to my good defenses it's alot less likely for a second or third -res attack to land and bring my resistances even lower. So the "stacking" of several -res powers, or even -defense powers, is very unlikely in most situations.


As for the "resistance capped" Brute, he has to fear...well...EVERYTHING. Every debuff will most likely hit him. Every mez. Every attack. It's ALOT more likely for even 1 Defense debuff attack to land on the +res Brute and cause a cascading effect of -defense than it is for a +def Brute.


Why?


Because the +res Brute is relying on basic MOB "chance to-hit" values for his "minor" form of defense. He also has no defense debuff resistance. So when even just "one" defense debuff attack hits him, his chances to naturally "avoid" attacks simply PLUMMETS, and fast. By the "second" simple defense debuff hit, he's pretty much being hit by almost every mob now. Furthermore, due to him "not" being good at avoiding attacks, he's more likely to be hit with most -res attacks, especially if even a couple "simple" defense debuffs have been applied (even just a assault rifle...). Because of this, it's ALOT more likely that the -res toon will experience a severe and painful "cascade" -res effect on himself, reducing his resistances to bare minimums and FAST. With how plentiful -defense attacks are, the base chance to-hit values of most mobs is going to go up very fast when on a +res toon. Add in +tohit buffs which some mobs have, and things get even worse.


To elaborate on this, +res toons will also have a slightly harder time getting off a self heal power such as "aid self" due to the consistency in which they are being hit.


Defense capped toons need only worry about the "unlucky" streak breakers, auto-hit powers, and being too cocky for the most part, and one of those is totally avoidable (&lt;---being too cocky lol).


Trust me though, in this game: Capped Defense &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Capped Res

(if those are the only parameters.)

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But how hard is it to cap resistance on a brute without granite?

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This. The only brute I have at 50 is my Elec Armor and the only resist he can cap is Energy... even with Power Surge.

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But how hard is it to cap resistance on a brute without granite?

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This. The only brute I have at 50 is my Elec Armor and the only resist he can cap is Energy... even with Power Surge.

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I have an elec armor brute and I could have sworn his Power Surge caps all resistance except toxic/psi. I'd have to go ingame and double check which is not likely to happen for 12-15 hours.

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Actually, I take that back. I was thinking of Powersurges numbers on it's own. I have it slotted with 1 resist IO (and 3 Recharge) and the numbers are all around 60%, I think. When tied with the other armors, it probably would cap out most of the resist types. Ugghh... i hate having to rely on that fricken power, though. Without it, all my resists (other than energy) are around 40 to 50 percent.

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