Magic Wand & Wizard Staff Ranged Powersets

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yes the dragons would require a new skeleton, how is that any different than other things that have been put in the game that require a new skeleton. It wasn't a big deal then, and it is not a big deal now.

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What else in the game required new skeletons? Nothing is springing to mind.

I'm going to see if I can dig up some of the past discussion about skeletons and animations.

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My appologies Memphis, I really do feel like this idea is good, and seems like everyone else that is posting is just trying to poke holes in it. Despite the fact that a lot of people I have talked to in game have said it sounds cool. So I am a bit heated about it. I am all for having fun but I want to keep this thread on topic. I spent a lot of time the other day researching, and concepting, sprouting ideas and bringing them to fruition. I want serious feedback please, be it negative or positive. As long as it is genuine.

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What else in the game required new skeletons? Nothing is springing to mind.


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Novas are completely unlike the regular hero skeleton. The monstrous legs were modified. Lusca and Sally are different as well.

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Lusca and Sally are both Giant Monsters. They don't interact have to do the same things a pet would. Monstrous and robotic legs still use the basic skeletons. Here's the most recent explanation of why new skeletons require a lot of work. (It wasn't in the Monstrous Hats thread. I had such hopes, too...)

There's nothing wrong with asking for a new skeleton. It might open up things which have been requested before, like a shape shifting set. But it does sound like a lot of work for one power in one set. Is there anything which would work instead of the classic dragon, like an earth elemental? Gnomes? Maybe the classic dragon is the only thing which would work. It just seems like your idea would be more feasible if it could work with a preexisting model.

As for this:

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I really do feel like this idea is good, and seems like everyone else that is posting is just trying to poke holes in it. Despite the fact that a lot of people I have talked to in game have said it sounds cool.

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Of course people poking holes in it. It's not out of malice, it's to help make the idea better. No matter how good the original concept is, do you really think you thought of everything? That someone isn't going to come in with something which could make it that much cooler? It's good for your idea to get talked about, to looked at with critical eyes. If there's a reason something should be some way, explain why! Maybe I won't agree. Maybe I never will. Who cares? More thinking is better.

I've already said I liked the overall concept.

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The primary looks ok, but the secondary requires a lot of work to bring it more in line with what the other blaster sets have for a secondary.

No other blaster set has that level of debuffs/team buffs. in fact all buffs in a blaster secondary are self only. a PBAOE heal and a summon in a blaster secondary? Also 2 holds may be a bit too much as well as the team buffs.

A hold and an immobalize would bring it in line as well as adding say a sleep spell, but not 2 holds and an immob. The team buffs I would say would have to be scrapped in favor of some kind of self buff in line with aim, build up, boosted range, etc.

The summon would also have to be scrapped I would say, devices is the only other blaster set I can think of that summons anything and the auto turret is kind of a one trick pony.

Instead of the massive summon in the end and the team buffs you can still have some kinds of summons, say like the little vet pets that are untargetable and grant +per and +acc like a targeting drone.

sounds like an interesting concept, but the secondary is far too overpowered for a blaster secondary.

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Thanks Textilian, that makes me feel a lot better about it. Yes I understand the purpose of critique more than the average individual (im an art school graduate). That is why I posted it on here instead of trying to pitch it directly to the devs. I just expected more positive stuff I guess. Like I said i am glad it is being talked about, whether it is positive or negative, as long as it is genuine. So thank you all for your opinions!

There are reasons this needs a new skeleton, aside from the original Magic Origin concept; (if that concept is changed due to conceptual limiting, which I still stand firm on, then the former does not apply), and that reason is "It needs to be done sometime". It has to start somewhere. If this game is going to expand and become greater, new skeletons need to be made. I went to school with 3D animation majors at a private tech school. I have also used 3D Studio Max before. So I understand it is tough. But they can't lean on that excuse forever. Change and evolution is an integral part of any system that means to advance.

And I do not want to get into a discussion about the following, but I felt compelled to mention, I am not being bias toward a Magic Origin set. I would also like to see a tech based set, all about robotics or something. Or a science powerset, based on chemical formulas, biological experimentation, etc. I just prefer magic personally, there should be good powersets like this for every origin if possible. I just want to keep this one strictly magical because there is a lot of everything else. Magic is a minority in my opinion. There is a new found popularity thanks to the Magic Booster. But that is mostly a costume thing, it needs powers to back it up.

P.S. I was just thinking about monstrous hats the other day when on my magician toon I created a "dragon" sg costume.

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Thanks Bureaucrat, but in rebuttle, the reason that I chose those powers is primarily because it is new and different. That is the basis of its appeal. Maybe the secondary would be better suited for a Defender primary or something else. But I would like one toon to be able to use both sets. I could take some nerfing on the abilities as well, like the dragon could only breathe fire. That would be fine. The same goes to the team support powers like Riigenatus Emoveil, you could take away the team +Regen, as long as the foe -Regen stayed.

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Thanks Bureaucrat, but in rebuttle, the reason that I chose those powers is primarily because it is new and different. That is the basis of its appeal. Maybe the secondary would be better suited for a Defender primary or something else. But I would like one toon to be able to use both sets. I could take some nerfing on the abilities as well, like the dragon could only breathe fire. That would be fine. The same goes to the team support powers like Riigenatus Emoveil, you could take away the team +Regen, as long as the foe -Regen stayed.

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It is different, but there is an issue of balance. Blasters are the glass cannons, their job is to do massive amounts of damage, their secondary adds some melee and a few self buffs that help them deal more damage. Debuffing is strongly in the defender or controller job description and they can use that strong tool because they have much less damage output.

You could easily make it a defender set by taking out a hold and adding another debuff. As a defender set, spawning a single pet at the end wouldn't be out of the ordinary either. Heck toss out the buffs/debuffs and add more holds and its a controller primary.

With some modification it could be a solid debuff set, or control set, with some major modification (toss out team buffs and debuffs and tier 9 pet summon) it could be a good blaster secondary.

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And I do not want to get into a discussion about the following, but I felt compelled to mention, I am not being bias toward a Magic Origin set. I would also like to see a tech based set, all about robotics or something. Or a science powerset, based on chemical formulas, biological experimentation, etc. I just prefer magic personally, there should be good powersets like this for every origin if possible. I just want to keep this one strictly magical because there is a lot of everything else. Magic is a minority in my opinion. There is a new found popularity thanks to the Magic Booster. But that is mostly a costume thing, it needs powers to back it up.

P.S. I was just thinking about monstrous hats the other day when on my magician toon I created a "dragon" sg costume.

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When I think about monstrous hats, I think about them having teeth and scurrying along the floor.

Someone else, earlier in the thread, suggested having this be an unlockable AT. That would account nicely for it being magic only. I think it would need some more powers, then, to choose from, if it was unlockable.

How about a series of 3 thematic task/strike forces or trials? Something at 30-35, 35-40, 40-45. We could see more of the Midnighter's story, or Ourobourous, or the Shard. Maybe more about the CoT or the Carnival. Three seems like a good number to me, thematic, mystical. Trials in those ranges would also be excedingly helpful to villains as well as providing more options to heroes. (I was thinking seperate, not co-op, trials)

So a current charecter comes along and does those 3, learns more, gets a badge, and unlocks the Magic EAT.

I would expect an EAT to be more powerful than standard ATs, too. And it wouldn't bother me in the least if other origin-specific EATs were unlocked in a similar way.

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(QR) Well, the thing is...what you have here is very definitely a magic-origin powerset. It is incredibly specific.

Stuff like Assault Rifle, Archery, and the melee weapon sets have been brought up in this thread. But frankly I see a variety of origins using those - AR blasters are often Tech or Natural. Archery users are Natural, Tech, or even Magic. The melee weapons get used by a lot of different origins, really.

The Epic ATs have powersets tied to origin, yes. But they're a special case. So are the Mastermind pet sets. What you're proposing here is something new...you say you'd like to see more origin-specific powersets.

And perhaps that's a good idea. But I suspect the developers are really gonna go for powersets that are as broad as possible in potential usage. If you look at recent history, many folks were meh about Dual Blades and Shields in particular when we heard they were in the pipeline, precisely because they seemed too specific.

That said, since Positron's hinted that we're getting Dual Pistols and Demon Summoning soon, something as specific as your Wand/Staff powerset might be possible.

That still doesn't address the way you've set up the powers here. A lot of what you have represents new and unprecedented mechanics. That's not in itself a bad thing. New mechanics add variety. I am concerned that there's too much different - which again, limits the likelihood a developer will come in here and say 'whoa, this is awesome, we should totally do this'.

Historically, new powersets introduced by the developers have frequently done one, maybe two new things. Your proposed power lists are WHOA ZOMG WTF different - and as noted by other posters, possibly overpowered.

If something sounds too powerful, then it comes off more like a fantasy wish-list rather than a viable proposal for the developers to look at.

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@Acyl

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Blue: Realpolitik, Leading Lady, Glass Lass, Superball, Alec Kazam
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My main concern is that it's so conceptually limiting. Yeah, it can be altered some with having the wand being able to be (as part of weapon customization,) say, an athame, crsytal of some sort, etc, but... you're not just limiting this to a Magic origin, but a Magic user who would use wands, as opposed to spells, books, scrolls, or just "innate" magic.


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Well, for the magic-user who just uses "Innate" magic, we have quite a few ranged attack sets where the user waves his hand and tosses out Fire, Ice or Dark Energy for example.

Perhaps, among the wands used, we can include Wand: None, placing an invisible one in it's place, or Wand: Staff could place a thick, gnarly staff protruding from the caster's hand in both directions. Depending on the gestures made by the caster, (and the angle the wand is held at) it could work to represent a staff, although grasped in one hand. The problem would be that the attack beam would be set to project from a point that is X distance from the caster's hand, preventing the staff from being too terribly long.

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In general, I think the issue with the secondary is it does too much to be viable for either blasters or defenders.

Blasters are primary damage / secondary damage, so the secondary presented simply isn't a viable blaster secondary. Debuffs really have no business being in a blaster secondary unless they're a damage power with a very minimal debuff component, and while a stun, immobilize, or other soft control (or even the odd hold) is appropriate, a pair of stackable holds would only likely only be tolerable if their combined magnitude was 3, or if their recharge was so high (or duration was so short) that they wouldn't be viably stackable. Essentially, the issue here, is that it provides far too much utility for a secondary set that should focus on doing extra damage in some form.

As a defender primary / corruptor secondary, it's more viable except, again, every power does a little too much. The only way it would be viable is if its numbers were significantly worse then any other set, which wouldn't make you happy.

For example, the rainfall power:
A knockdown patch is appropriate for a defender; however, there's a reason Oil Slick Arrow is only targetable once (and when it's lit, the knockdown component is supposed to end). Additionally, 'electricity' isn't a damage type in the game, all electricity attacks do energy damage; which is one of the most common damage types available to players. Also, if the targetable 'pet' component of the rainfall patch doesn't die after a single attack, that makes it astoundingly useful as a target for howling twilight, dark and kinetics heals, transference, and other utility powers that need an available enemy in order to work. Finally, it just doesn't make logical sense for rain to knock things down. Ice and tar are slippery. A wet carpet just makes 'squelchy' noises when you step on it.

Instead, this power would be more appropriate as (either a patch or a toggle) -range, -accuracy (possibly also a -perception, but honestly it really shouldn't be a no-agro power); as the rain gets in your enemy's eyes and the high wind blows their projectiles off course.

Honestly, the reason why people are trying to pick the secondary apart is because it's simply too good to be a defender secondary. No other defender gets more then a single pet; likewise, the focus on control is inappropriate, as is the emphasis on aoe buffs and debuffs. Now, yes, plenty of defenders do get a lot of AoE powers; but they all have some drawback (Toggles that drain endurance and reduce your ability to blast, long recharge times, high end costs, or a focus on single-target powers early on).



Here's something new and different that may be more appropriate for a defender set:

Curse of Vertigo:
Single target (enemy), -range (-80% range, (-20% range to AVs)), 5% chance per second of mag 0.67 knockback, duration (about 10-14 seconds)

Distort Space:
Single target (Ally), +range (Equivalent of boost range), +ToHit (5% ish), +defense (ranged, AoE), +special (adds 1 extra foot of range to melee attacks)

Call Rainstorm:
Toggle (target enemy AoE debuff) -range, -ToHit, -damage (Fire), -resist (Energy, Cold)

Shield Spell:
Single Target (Ally), +resistance (smashing/lethal), +defense (Melee, AoE)

Spell of Vitality:
Single target (Ally), Target +max health, +regen. Extremely long recharge, and the +regen should be very low to keep this power from being significantly better then Frostwork.

Magic Mirage:
Toggle PBAoE, Team Stealth, foe confuse (mag 2, medium chance every second, low duration, with a second chance for an additional +1 mag to confused foes at the start of the confuse's duration)

Curse of Blindness:
Single Target, Foe -ToHit, Foe -Damage (all)

Mass Haste:
PBAoE, long recharge. Allies +recharge, +recovery, +defense (all, 2.5%)

Magestorm:
Summon pet (thunderstorm, but mobile, with the following powers: Flares, Charged Bolts, Ice Bolt, and Neutrino Bolt). Damage for these powers should be about 60% of defender level because the thunderstorm is untargetable. recharge should be marginally higher then duration. Alternatively, the pet could fire each attack once and, on firing the last attack, vanish--but that would require more work).



Advantages to this version: No new skeletons, fills a gap in the defender sets (no set significantly modifies range yet), provides enough varied utility to be 'appropriate' for a magical set without being truly 'jack of all trades'.

Disadvantages: Limited concepts, altering range is a largely untested variable.

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Yeah that is a lot of good stuff you guys have in mind. But as for the Summon Dragon, its appeal is that it uses a new skeleton. It breaks that barrier. Summoning a storm is something we already see in the game. These new mechanics are exactly what I want out of this. Something that changes things up! As for the balance issue, we have talked about that, now there is beating a dead horse, and beating a bloody spot in the ground where a horse used to be. Like i have said over and over again, this is a concept that would be up to the devs to decide how to make it work. That being said these ideas are not set in stone, and your new ideas for this set are good. The reason I like mine better is because it brings something new to the game. There is already a storm summon in the game.

The idea about taking pets that already exist (veteran pets) is a pretty good idea also. But the problem with that is; I am tired of seeing the same things recycled in this game and applied to something else. It is boring, and lazy on behalf of development. If i wanted to summon a storm I would play a storm troller. If I wanted a Gnome pet I would use my veteran pet power for the redcap.

So leave the balance issue to the devs, and strive for something new!

I really like the idea of making this a new unlockable set. It could be like the Kheld sets in the unlockable aspect. And it wouldnt have to be limited to 9 power choices either. If they wanted to expand the story of the Midnight Squad and tie this to it somehow that would be great! Good Idea Textilian. I would love to see this as an unlockable EAT. That way it can keep its unique abilities. That is what im interested in anyway, change.

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The idea about taking pets that already exist (veteran pets) is a pretty good idea also. But the problem with that is; I am tired of seeing the same things recycled in this game and applied to something else. It is boring, and lazy on behalf of development. If i wanted to summon a storm I would play a storm troller. If I wanted a Gnome pet I would use my veteran pet power for the redcap.

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Erm - FYI, stating the devs are lazy is never a good idea if you want your idea examined by them.

We get new stuff all the time, and there is a chance that your idea for new stuff might be adopted (Standard Code Rant here). To imply or state otherwise is not a good idea, and I'm hoping you didn't really mean that.

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Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."

I'm not going to respond to the specific powers suggested as Power Sets here, because I don't see that as the overall topic. Rather, it's the idea of a staff or wand as a weapon for a Ranged Set.

My first thought is that this is something I've thought about for Power Customization. Instead of having the current Fire Blast or Ice Blast powers come out of the hands, have them come out of a staff. Obviously this is far beyond the current concept of weapon customization and would require work equivalent to Power Customization, if not being that itself. But that being said, it would be a way to, for example, cast a fireball.

The problem is the difference in timing in animations that involve using the hands to summon effects, and using a weapon/wand/staff. To be completely balanced, Power Customization would have to have no effect on cast time. So, perhaps in that sense a staff or wand use as a DIFFERENT Power Set would be a better concept.

Plus, there's the fact that I really want a Staff as a melee weapon. This for once provides a weapon that can actually be used as both melee and range, unlike, for instance, a sword or a gun. The concept is a bit constrained, because usually normal staves do not fire attacks, but you could have a Staff Melee set, and a Staff Ranged set, and have that as a new set of Power Sets for a lot of ATs across the game.

I suppose it gets down to the conceptual constraint of the Set, which to me gets down to the question, would you rather have a staff from which you can fire a Fire Blast, or would you rather the Staff be a totally new set? One is an option which can be opted out of, allowing other concepts to use it, but the other is far more flexible, and actually can be implemented under the current game engine.

I suppose my answer to the question of concept would be to point out that it's interesting that a magic using or mutant hero can use a machine gun, and that's considered secondary to whatever his "real" power is, and yet it's not considered as likely that a Tech or Science hero would use a wand or other magic to augment his power. I've noticed this discrepancy about Natural heroes before, it's usually acceptable for them to use gadgets, but the use of magic pushes them toward the Magic origin. Magic seems to be regarded by most people as something that is "not compatible" with science or technology, you cannot use magic and use anything else.

I will point out, though, that the Nemesis Staff is a perfect example of a technology based staff. It may not be a usual sort of thing, but it does exist in this game, and suggests that there are some technologists who try to develop weapons that look like they could be magic. And of course, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." A REALLY high tech staff, looking so advanced that it seems like, say, a crystal with some sort of energy conduits feeding it, would probably be accepted as firing out blasts of energy or fire, even if such a thing doesn't exist in the real world.

I personally say it should be given a try. Heck, the wand option could be a small energy pistol in Technology form. Something like a Phaser. Although bringing that up, I don't know if they should both be the same set, with a wand or staff selectable from the options, or two different sets. Usually a wand attack would come from the hand, while a staff would be more of a "flinging" animation, like current staves have.

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Ad_Astra, first lets make one thing very clear. I did not call the devs lazy, yes they have made lots of new stuff. My praise to the booster pack, and the MA supports that fact. What I was saying, is your idea is a lazy way of getting around what I want to achieve with this powerset, which is something new, and change.

Jade Dragon, you bring up some interesting ideas. But I dont think people will understand what I am talking about unless I draw it out. Thankfully I have the skill to do that. So I will produce a few drawings with some different staff weapon customization options illustrating how you could use the same powerset for both wands and staffs. This will take a couple days so dont expect it right away.

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Question:-

You've designed a staff/wand primary set. Which is cool. And you've got a secondary laid out too.

The primary definitely works with the staff out, yes - I take it so does the secondary? Meaning it's something like Trick Arrow and Archery? Using the powers requires you to draw the staff, and pairing one of these sets with any other would cause redraw?

Having two powersets that are...so closely designed to go with each other is a potential problem. You're billing these as powersets, rather than an entire AT (unlock requirements aside).

Trick Arrow and Archery suffer somewhat as defender sets, since people seem reluctant to pair them with anything else. There are exceptions, and I do know folks who play TA/Dark, Sonic/Archery, or whatever, but for whatever reason...theme, redraw, synergy... people tend to stick with the 'logical' combination.

That has adverse effects on the popularity of the set in general, as part of the appeal of the CoH power system is the ability to mix and match secondaries to give vastly different results. In a way, this represents a step backwards in terms of build customization options, not forward.

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@Acyl

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Blue: Realpolitik, Leading Lady, Glass Lass, Superball, Alec Kazam
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Well personally I mix and match things like this a lot. We discussed its applications, and the primary would be good for blasters, but the secondary would not be. So in that aspect blasters would have to mix and match by force. As for defenders, that could be completely up to them. Maybe they like the secondary but not the primary or vice versa. But if this becomes an EAT like the Kheldian sets. Then it would probably be set up as its own AT with a set origin. I don't really care either way I just think it would be great to see this in the game. What people choose to do with it is up to them.

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Okay, so I promised some sketches but I haven't had any time to do them. But as soon as I do, I will post them right away!

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At first glance, I really don't think the devs want to tie any powersets as closely to Origins as this set is.

Assault Rifle can be a high-tech gun, natural skill, or a magic morphing gun. Something explicitly described as 'Magic Wand' is rather limiting.

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At first glance, I really don't think the devs want to tie any powersets as closely to Origins as this set is.

Assault Rifle can be a high-tech gun, natural skill, or a magic morphing gun. Something explicitly described as 'Magic Wand' is rather limiting.

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How do you see a magic morphing gun when you look at the Franken gun, or any of the Weapon Customization options?

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I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

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At first glance, I really don't think the devs want to tie any powersets as closely to Origins as this set is.
Assault Rifle can be a high-tech gun, natural skill, or a magic morphing gun. Something explicitly described as 'Magic Wand' is rather limiting.

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How do you see a magic morphing gun when you look at the Franken gun, or any of the Weapon Customization options?

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Someone once played an AR/Fire Blaster, with a backstory about how his rifle was possessed by a fire demon. Hellboy is largely magical, being a demon and all, yet he still uses a giant six-shooter. I'm pretty sure Hellsing's guns are blessed and at least slightly magical. There are ways around.

The one BIG thing I would say against this idea, and there's really nothing else I can comment on it until it is addressed, is that I am severely bothered by what feels like either Harry Potter or, at most, a high-fantasy high mage casting things with a wand. Personally, I DESPISE the one-handed one twirling, and it's made watching Harry Potter movies almost impossible for me for that reason alone. Weapons I can get, as most are used in fairly direct ways - draw weapon and either hit things with it or shoot bullets out of it. I have a VERY hard time imagining how waving a wand and making stuff happen would be COOL, and that's a big thing for me. I would quite literally rather shoot fire from my hands than do it out of a wand.

Two-handed staffs I can kind of see, but for the life of me I can't see them actually being USED with two hands, which ends up making them into a glorified Nemesis Staff. Even Force Mages use theirs one-handed, and it's an animation very much akin to lower-tier Blaster blasts, but customized. If anyone can come up with a COOL way to use a two-handed staff with two hands to cast spells ASIDE from striking it into the ground and shouting the gramatically incorrect "You shall not pass!" then I might concede, but I'm just not seeing it.

Personally, I'm not against a set that does a variety of damage types or has lots of tricks and doodads. I am squarely against doing this out of a wand and chanting Latin at the same time. I understand we sort of moved past that, but I'd still like to say I want to keep the names English, or at the very least pick a language that's not as overused in this area. The next-gen Prince of Persia did a very good job of using Arabic, I think, for the spells Elika uses, even though a setting is never directly named.

This brings in the other problem with one-handed wand waving - yes, you can technically turn it into a microwave on a stick ala the Tech Mace, but the fact remains that the character is waving it and chanting. This is pretty far removed from something... Well, anyone but a bearded wizard or a glasses-wearing kid would do, and the polar opposite of a technologist who, silly fiction aside, doesn't need to chant to his equipment.

The whole thing actually reminds me of the final confrontation in Little Nemo: Adventures in Slumberland, where he had to hold King Morpheus' staff and chant off what felt like two paragraphs of text while the evil kind of the darkness... Thing was trying to suck him out of his flying bed. It's interesting as an idea, but it only really works in a mystical setting.

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I do agree with Sam here, that the idea of wand-waving seems wrong in this game. I don't care for the mechanic at all.

Powersets with mixed damage types seems intriguing, although I must imagine it would be a bear to balance and determine in what order you got the various damage types.

But to be honest, I do have to point out to Sam that there is at least one popular series of books out right now where a modern day younger man is out waving a wand (albeit a "blasting stick" similar to a hockey stick) using verbal trigger words. I recommend reading Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden novels to anyone who has even a slight interest in modern fantasy.

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Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."

I love the suggestion. I think a few "Origin Specific" powersets would not break the game and might make it fun. I particularly like the idea of say a magic set and a maybe a Tech set. After all we have devices etc..

And I think some of you are taking it too seriously. They were suggested ideas for a new powerset that was magic based. Instead of critisizing maybe you have alternatives to the concept. Instead of picking apart someones idea until you've made them wish they had never posted it?

And I do have a question? WOW why so negative this was a suggested new powerset from someone that is obviously passionate about it. And they apparently put some thought into it. Hows about not chewing them a new one just because they posted an idea.

I like the concept for sure.

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"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from Science!" - Agatha Heterodyne

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