We have our first Hall of Fame...and the winner is
By
AddamsFamily,
Posted on: 2009-05-04 01:20 in Mission Architect
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You're missing his point. If someone played his arc through, he'd get tickets for the play-through. If that person then voted a 1 or 0-star for his arc then that'd be a difference in opinion.
But when someone doesn't even play the arc, but still votes a 1 or 0-star then that's griefing. And the author can tell when his arc is or is not getting played by the number of tickets he can collect from the MA guy.
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I wasn't aware missions gave you tickets for simply someone playing it through. I know I've never received any and most of my ratings have been 5-stars. I don't see anything about it on the Wiki, either.
Regardless, though, I would expect that a large number of people who do end up giving 0 or 1 stars never complete the arc. That's not a good measure of whether or not someone is griefing you.
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You have to collect your tickets from the ticket vendor. If you've gotten a lot of 5 star ratings, you should have a lot of tickets waiting for you under the claim button at the vendor.
But here I had thought 0 and 1 star ratings didn't give you tickets... but if they do that means I got griefed on an arc that didn't even have any other ratings yet.
I am pretty sure you get tickets when people rate your arc: 20 tickets for 4 stars, 25 tickets for 5 stars. Whether or not they finish the arc doesn't seem to matter.
Admittedly I don't have a huge pool of data, but that's my understanding.
So it's hard to tell whether someone finished when they rated (though you can use badge progress as a hint), and when they rate, how they rated, unless they give you a 4 or 5.
I'd actually really like to see anonymized statistics on what people are giving as ratings for my arcs. I realize it might be hard to truly anonymize it in the presence of named feedback, but I think I would find it very useful.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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I am pretty sure you get tickets when people rate your arc: 20 tickets for 4 stars, 25 tickets for 5 stars. Whether or not they finish the arc doesn't seem to matter.
Admittedly I don't have a huge pool of data, but that's my understanding.
So it's hard to tell whether someone finished when they rated (though you can use badge progress as a hint), and when they rate, how they rated, unless they give you a 4 or 5.
I'd actually really like to see anonymized statistics on what people are giving as ratings for my arcs. I realize it might be hard to truly anonymize it in the presence of named feedback, but I think I would find it very useful.
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I know how you get tickets for an arc being rated and I know where to collect them.
What I seem to be being told is that someone just playing all the way through your arc gives you tickets therefore if someone rated you 0, 1 or 2 stars and you get no tickets they did not play all the way through.
Otherwise, I still have no idea how these people know that someone rated their arc anything at all and did not play it.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
You don't get tickets when people rate an arc if they didn't play through. One of my friends who was messing around during the reactivation weekend 5 starred both my story arcs. The first he actually played through, the other he didn't have time to yet. I only got 25 tickets as a result.
I believe one of the badges keeps track of how many people have played your arc. Having rarely ever opened the Badge tab, I couldn't tell you exactly what they're looking at, but usually in discussions of play/rating disparity people mention this method of recording.
Edit: Also, a 3-vote is worth 15 tickets.
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You don't get tickets when people rate an arc if they didn't play through. One of my friends who was messing around during the reactivation weekend 5 starred both my story arcs. The first he actually played through, the other he didn't have time to yet. I only got 25 tickets as a result.
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One of my friends 5-starred my arc without playing through it (I know, because I was standing in the AE building with her when she did it and she never even entered the "matter stream") and I got 25 tickets for it.
Just for the record, she told me she did it after she did it, I'm actually kind of annoyed about it.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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I believe one of the badges keeps track of how many people have played your arc. Having rarely ever opened the Badge tab, I couldn't tell you exactly what they're looking at, but usually in discussions of play/rating disparity people mention this method of recording.
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That may very well be, I wouldn't know either. However, I know I have 1-starred arcs after playing through 2 or 3 missions and getting to the point where it's obvious it's not going to get any better so I'm sure others do too. That has nothing to do with trying to hurt someone's ratings, it's because the arc is unbearably bad.
Edit: Yes, I saw the badge that tells you how many people have completed an arc. In my case, all but 2 of my ratings where from people who finished it. I know who one of the people who didn't finish it was, which means the other must have been a griefer.
Except that my arc has never been on any first page of anything so maybe someone just thought it was so bad they quit before finishing it and that was one of my two 1-stars?
I think I'll choose the latter, but that's just me. Anyone else can think whatever makes them feel better.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
Call me old-fashioned, but with very few, very unusual exceptions, every other "Hall of Fame" I'm familiar with inducts members forever.
Guess what guys.
I just checked the hall of fai..erm, fame and it was empty.
Oh and also, 74/15 is not 4. 
Edit:
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Personally, I have 2-Starred a Dev's Chioce Mission.
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Oh no you didn't!
I'm appalled by your behaviour. 
Ack.
Guess I was just talking out of my [censored] then. I had compiled that earlier post from what I had read from other people. I myself don't even have an arc up.
Sorry about that.
Statesman said let there be heroes, and there were heroes.
Lord Recluse said let there be villains, and there were villains.
NCsoft said let there be nothing, and there was nothing.
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You're missing his point. If someone played his arc through, he'd get tickets for the play-through. If that person then voted a 1 or 0-star for his arc then that'd be a difference in opinion.
But when someone doesn't even play the arc, but still votes a 1 or 0-star then that's griefing. And the author can tell when his arc is or is not getting played by the number of tickets he can collect from the MA guy.
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Or, someone could have started the arc, gotten into it about halfway, decided it sucked already for whatever reason and quit it before they finished (thus keeping him from gaining tickets) and rated it 1-star upon leaving.
No actual griefing, the guy just had a boring or way too hard arc.
I've done that on a couple of arcs. One was boring. The tag made it sound interesting, It had a good rating. Ended up being a farm with no way of knowing that going in. I played a few of the groups to see if any text popped up that would make it less of a chore as I had picked it for a solo and ended up just leaving because it happened to be a cleverly disguised farm with no cleverness inside it. didn't finish it, but 1stared it because it was crap.
There was another with no description but an interesting title. 4 star rated. I enter and it has a time limit and the entry text says "see how many you can kill!" It was on the highest difficulty possible (every enemy was a boss and they traveled in packs and did I mention every single one was purple?). After dying 4 times before getting 10 feet past the entrance, I gave up, quit early and 1 stared it.
Again, no griefing. But also no completion of the arcs. It happens.
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Ack.
Guess I was just talking out of my [censored] then. I had compiled that earlier post from what I had read from other people. I myself don't even have an arc up.
Sorry about that.
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No worries, done it myself a time or two.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
I don't see why people think we need proof when groups are admitting to doing it, but let me put it as bluntly as possible.
My arc is on the first page with 200+ votes and the tickets are coming in at a rate that shows every. single. vote. is 4 or 5 star (mostly 5, in fact). It is a mathematical certainty based on tickets divided by votes. Suddenly, I'm at 4 stars with just a few votes. Every one of them would have had to have been 0 stars because I got zero tickets for them. No comments saying "I don't like this." No "ur arc sukks." No nothin'. Having never received a zero star before it was the highest rated arc that wasn't dev choice on the front page (and trust me, just like every other arc that's been there, it didn't last long), it suddenly dropped due to a handful of votes.
These votes were all done within maybe 15 or 20 minutes.
Ever single person I know who has had their arc on the front page in that same position has had the exact same thing happen. You're clipping along with an occasional 3 star based on dividing tickets earned by new votes when WAMMO you've suddenly got 5-10 0 star votes in rapid succession.
Is there a group that waits for your arc to be the first one under the dev choices to play it that hates everything? Do they only play in largish teams that vote in blocks together? Does their team leader say "I didn't like this, so vote one or I'll kick you from the team" or something?
It's happened to Muu's Footsteps Initiative, for instance. We talk all the time. We're buds or whatever. His arc was doing great on the way to being Hall of Fame and then suddenly there were a slew of 1 and 0 star votes, all at the same time. He had enough ratings to recover from it and eventually it got there, only to get a block of 1 and 0 star votes, all at the same time. It keeps happening over and over again for him because people vote it 4 or 5 because they enjoy it and then as soon as it hits 5 stars again it gets a slew of ones and zeroes.
Coincidence is one thing, but c'mon. When it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duck, and openly says, "Hey, I'm a duck," it's probably a duck.
I don't think anyone's out to get me or anything. Hell, since I dropped from the first page I'm back to getting 4 and 5 star ratings almost exclusively again. The tickets I get for free from publishing a decent arc mean more to me than the rating anyway, so that's fine with me. I mean, I wish more people were playing it since that means mroe tickets, but whatever.
It isn't even a large number of people doing it. One zero star vote takes multiple fives to make up for. It only takes a small group of people saying "Hey, my bud's Naruto fanfic is on the last page and these meanies are getting all the votes. I'm going to vote them down to get his arc closer to the front," to mess the whole thing up.
The best part? All of the arcs I know of that have had this happen only get ones or zeroes when they have five stars and are on the front page. Since I dropped off the front page I've gotten all fours and fives again (maybe a three or two). Whenever Footsteps falls off from Hall of Fame status, he starts rolling in tickets again because it isn't on the front page, so people aren't voting it down just because.
If I was getting constant feedback saying people hated my arc and were rating it down because of that, then I'd just think they have a different idea of fun than I do and call it a day. The fact is, even the "negative" feedback I've gotten has come along with at worst a three star rating. Even then, it usually came down to me thinking my arc is clever and insanely fun and them wishing it gave more XP. Since I don't care about the XP, we just don't see eye to eye. And that's just fine.
Nobody has a right to complain if people are rating them down because they don't like it, but that isn't the only factor at work here. Thinking it is simply means you're ignoring the experiences of those with highly rated arcs and the statements of those who openly admit to the behavior.
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I don't see why people think we need proof when groups are admitting to doing it, but let me put it as bluntly as possible.
My arc is on the first page with 200+ votes and the tickets are coming in at a rate that shows every. single. vote. is 4 or 5 star (mostly 5, in fact). It is a mathematical certainty based on tickets divided by votes. Suddenly, I'm at 4 stars with just a few votes. Every one of them would have had to have been 0 stars because I got zero tickets for them. No comments saying "I don't like this." No "ur arc sukks." No nothin'. Having never received a zero star before it was the highest rated arc that wasn't dev choice on the front page (and trust me, just like every other arc that's been there, it didn't last long), it suddenly dropped due to a handful of votes.
These votes were all done within maybe 15 or 20 minutes.
Ever single person I know who has had their arc on the front page in that same position has had the exact same thing happen. You're clipping along with an occasional 3 star based on dividing tickets earned by new votes when WAMMO you've suddenly got 5-10 0 star votes in rapid succession.
Is there a group that waits for your arc to be the first one under the dev choices to play it that hates everything? Do they only play in largish teams that vote in blocks together? Does their team leader say "I didn't like this, so vote one or I'll kick you from the team" or something?
It's happened to Muu's Footsteps Initiative, for instance. We talk all the time. We're buds or whatever. His arc was doing great on the way to being Hall of Fame and then suddenly there were a slew of 1 and 0 star votes, all at the same time. He had enough ratings to recover from it and eventually it got there, only to get a block of 1 and 0 star votes, all at the same time. It keeps happening over and over again for him because people vote it 4 or 5 because they enjoy it and then as soon as it hits 5 stars again it gets a slew of ones and zeroes.
Coincidence is one thing, but c'mon. When it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, smells like a duck, and openly says, "Hey, I'm a duck," it's probably a duck.
I don't think anyone's out to get me or anything. Hell, since I dropped from the first page I'm back to getting 4 and 5 star ratings almost exclusively again. The tickets I get for free from publishing a decent arc mean more to me than the rating anyway, so that's fine with me. I mean, I wish more people were playing it since that means mroe tickets, but whatever.
It isn't even a large number of people doing it. One zero star vote takes multiple fives to make up for. It only takes a small group of people saying "Hey, my bud's Naruto fanfic is on the last page and these meanies are getting all the votes. I'm going to vote them down to get his arc closer to the front," to mess the whole thing up.
The best part? All of the arcs I know of that have had this happen only get ones or zeroes when they have five stars and are on the front page. Since I dropped off the front page I've gotten all fours and fives again (maybe a three or two). Whenever Footsteps falls off from Hall of Fame status, he starts rolling in tickets again because it isn't on the front page, so people aren't voting it down just because.
If I was getting constant feedback saying people hated my arc and were rating it down because of that, then I'd just think they have a different idea of fun than I do and call it a day. The fact is, even the "negative" feedback I've gotten has come along with at worst a three star rating. Even then, it usually came down to me thinking my arc is clever and insanely fun and them wishing it gave more XP. Since I don't care about the XP, we just don't see eye to eye. And that's just fine.
Nobody has a right to complain if people are rating them down because they don't like it, but that isn't the only factor at work here. Thinking it is simply means you're ignoring the experiences of those with highly rated arcs and the statements of those who openly admit to the behavior.
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If you have 150 5-stars and 50 4-stars and 1 person 1-stars you then you will stay 5-star. If you have 100 5-stars and 100 4-stars and 1 person 1-stars you then you drop to 4-stars.
While you initially state most of your ratings were 5 star and all your ratings were 4 or 5 star, you then mention some 3-star ratings so it's something of a jumble trying to put it together. The problem is, with this rating system, just a few 3-stars in the mix with a preponderance of 5's and alot of 4's puts you only 1 or 2 1-stars away from dropping off the front page. The rating system itself is ridiculous when it's based on averages.
Also, very few people will send you feedback when they rate you so low.
There are numerous explanations for getting a sudden slew of 0 or 1 stars when on the front page. A team might have done your arc and one of the things I keep hearing is only the team leader can see some of the texts. That could very easily lead a team to vote on your arc solely based on how much of a challenge it was for the team, or how much xp/minute they got.
When you're further down in the list, people tend to be looking there for arcs that sound like content they want to play. If your arc is good, then odds are you'll mostly get high ratings then. On the front page, especially high up on it, you have the impatient, radio mission PuG crowd who are likely to choose your mission just because it's the first one they see.
The thing is, a few posters claiming they are going to grief arcs can only do so much damage, as they can only vote once. Every time your arc gets knocked off the front page, if it's due to griefing, it's a different bunch of griefers.
To me it's like UFO sightings. Yes, lots of people have seen 'em, but, there are usually more likely explanations.
However, as I said, believe what you will.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
Hey leave me outta dis yo, alls I ever said was you'll average a lower vote if you're on page 1.
Prolly a million reasons why.
I've had my arc get on the first 3 pages of the MA search on three separate occasions, each time with almost all 5-star votes (and the occasional but rare 4 star). Each time, within 30 minutes of this happening, the arc is bombarded with several 1 and 0 star votes. Every time. This has happened, this exact same way, in the exact same time frame, to a half dozen other people I communicate with regularly in game.
After that blitz, when the arcs are buried again from the low votes, they go back to earning almost exclusively 4 and 5 star votes until they crawl back up again. After which the cycle repeats. This happens to all of us, not just me.
Gemini:
If the arcs were really so bad as to deserve multiple 1 and 0 star votes over the course an hour of them reaching front pages why is it only when they reach the front page do they get these votes, and only for a tiny window upon reaching that point? Predictably and reliably, with the low votes ceasing every single time completely and utterly after they are off the front page?
I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on how this pattern can happen over and over and over again and not be suspicious at all.
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I've had my arc get on the first 3 pages of the MA search on three separate occasions, each time with almost all 5-star votes (and the occasional but rare 4 star). Each time, within 30 minutes of this happening, the arc is bombarded with several 1 and 0 star votes. Every time. This has happened, this exact same way, in the exact same time frame, to a half dozen other people I communicate with regularly in game.
After that blitz, when the arcs are buried again from the low votes, they go back to earning almost exclusively 4 and 5 star votes until they crawl back up again. After which the cycle repeats. This happens to all of us, not just me.
Gemini:
If the arcs were really so bad as to deserve multiple 1 and 0 star votes over the course an hour of them reaching front pages why is it only when they reach the front page do they get these votes, and only for a tiny window upon reaching that point? Predictably and reliably, with the low votes ceasing every single time completely and utterly after they are off the front page?
I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on how this pattern can happen over and over and over again and not be suspicious at all.
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I've thought I'd given them. As Mu said, there are probably a million reasons why. I already gave one possible example. What you seem to be failing to take into account is that you have more exposure on the front page and that means more exposure to the dillweeds who play the game too.
I would ask you, as you say this happens time after time after time after time, etc.... do you really and truly believe there are that many griefers out there? It can't just be a handful of guys.
Anyway, it's 2 hours past my bedtime and putting together a coherent sentence is a chore right now so a fuller answer is going to have to wait for another time.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
Thank you. Like I said, how many duck-like characteristics does it have to have before it's a duck?
Sorry to drag you in, Muu. I know your 0 and 1 stars have been for other reasons too ("this isn't funny I want serious arcs rarrr my games are my life" and such).
I think, at the least, we can agree that a 5-star system is a really terrible idea for the sole reason of subjectivity. I don't believe a mission like Footsteps Initiative deserves a 0 or a 1 in any circumstance, because it's A) playable and B) has a coherent storyline. 1 or lower would be "almost completely unplayable" for me, like if it were just a long string of Extreme Stone Armor Archvillains or something. If you happen to play a cat-angel or look amazingly like MEGA PUNCHER, though, it's very easy to just hit it with a 1-star rating and never look back, even though that's not very objective.
with an estimated 150,000 subscribers, if even say, 0.05% of them were griefers, that's still 75 of them, more than enough to wreck any arc's rating given that a vote of 1 requires 9 5-stars to counteract, and a 0 requires 11.
It only requires 10 griefers 0-voting an arc to require 110 5-star votes to bring it back to 5 stars, which is vastly more votes than most arcs ever see, and thanks to being pounded instantly back into obscurity the moment they see any sort of actual chance at exposure, the more than many will likely ever see without a large network of allies spreading word of mouth, and aggressive promotion. The way HoF works, each 0 vote effectively cancels out the votes of a dozen other people, giving anyone who wants to sabotage an arc's voting absolutely tremendous power to do so, should they be so inclined.
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with an estimated 150,000 subscribers, if even say, 0.05% of them were griefers, that's still 75 of them, more than enough to wreck any arc's rating given that a vote of 1 requires 9 5-stars to counteract, and a 0 requires 11.
It only requires 10 griefers 0-voting an arc to require 110 5-star votes to bring it back to 5 stars, which is vastly more votes than most arcs ever see, and thanks to being pounded instantly back into obscurity the moment they see any sort of actual chance at exposure, the more than many will likely ever see without a large network of allies spreading word of mouth, and aggressive promotion. The way HoF works, each 0 vote effectively cancels out the votes of a dozen other people, giving anyone who wants to sabotage an arc's voting absolutely tremendous power to do so, should they be so inclined.
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I was doing the math for an epic post and then you made it simple. Yeah.
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Yep, three movies in the entire recorded history of moviedom satisfy the IMDB equivalent of our HoF. That right there tells me we're doing something wrong. Star Wars wouldn't make our HoF; Casablanca wouldn't make it; Schindler's List wouldn't make it.
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Whats really funny, Those 3 movies are no longer the top 3. This does need a more permenant system; Those movies may be a few years old before they got bumped out or up into that kind of recognition, but these HOF arcs only last a day or two, tops that ive seen.
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There are numerous explanations for getting a sudden slew of 0 or 1 stars when on the front page. A team might have done your arc
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Except, as people keep telling you, the 1-star ratings come too fast to have reasonably allowed for completion of the arc, and are never accompanied by progress on the "X people have completed your arcs" badge bar.
This happens to all arcs on the first few pages, regardless of quality, challenge level, custom vs. in-game mobs, author, votes from SG-mates (i.e. undeserving) vs. legitimately earned votes by word of mouth, etc. And it happens in obvious spurts, with the first couple of pages enjoying a relative stasis for a day or two, when suddenly, within the space of an hour or two, the whole landscape changes.
There are "numerous explanations", yes, but those of us familiar with the scientific method tend to winnow down those possibilities by excluding ones that don't fit the available evidence.
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When you're further down in the list, people tend to be looking there for arcs that sound like content they want to play. If your arc is good, then odds are you'll mostly get high ratings then. On the front page, especially high up on it, you have the impatient, radio mission PuG crowd who are likely to choose your mission just because it's the first one they see.
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So your view is that an impatient radio mission PUG would rather check out several arcs in a row, sample them, and then once they find them unsatisfactory, go through all the trouble of 1-starring, quitting, disbanding, and reforming the entire team just to find the perfect "XP MISH". Rather than sticking it out and getting what xp they can, or abandoning any pretense of caring about the story and just heading straight for the Comm Officer farms.
Somewhere, William of Ockham is crying.
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The thing is, a few posters claiming they are going to grief arcs can only do so much damage, as they can only vote once. Every time your arc gets knocked off the front page, if it's due to griefing, it's a different bunch of griefers.
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And heaven knows there can't possibly be two groups of griefers in this game! Why, the chances must be astronomical!
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However, as I said, believe what you will.
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Likewise. It's also best to acquaint oneself with the evidence at hand, but at least you're not claiming your opinion to be fact anymore so I'll take whatever middle ground I can meet you on, cheers
One time I got 25 tickets, so I checked up on my arc and somehow I had hit 5 stars, which combined with my number of ratings, put me on the first page. Before I could even refresh again, "someone voted on arcname", banished back to page 3740287.
I dunno I don't think my arc is that great compared to some others, but I don't see what world it could deserve 1 star in. Everything works, I put effort into the writing, I tried to make my custom critters as inoffensive and "can be played by anyone" as possible, ans everyone who HAS given me feedback, has claimed to have fun with it, or at least given me ways to improve it.
Couple that with the fact you never receive feedback with these votes ever, so you have no chance to improve, it's just a frustrating phenomenon. It kinda makes me wonder if we'll ever have a legitimate, lasting hall of fame arc, if any arc that hits page one doesn't stay there more than a couple hours.
⊂二二二（ ＾ω＾）二二二⊃
@6X - Arc IDs: 9882
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You're missing his point. If someone played his arc through, he'd get tickets for the play-through. If that person then voted a 1 or 0-star for his arc then that'd be a difference in opinion.
But when someone doesn't even play the arc, but still votes a 1 or 0-star then that's griefing. And the author can tell when his arc is or is not getting played by the number of tickets he can collect from the MA guy.
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I wasn't aware missions gave you tickets for simply someone playing it through. I know I've never received any and most of my ratings have been 5-stars. I don't see anything about it on the Wiki, either.
Regardless, though, I would expect that a large number of people who do end up giving 0 or 1 stars never complete the arc. That's not a good measure of whether or not someone is griefing you.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.