Limit Council Marksmen to 1 per spawn
By
Bookkeeper_Jay,
Posted on: 2009-05-02 12:54 in Suggestions and Ideas
I don't really see the point. It's not as if they can completely screw up your life with a single attack like Sappers can. The only time they're dangerous is when there are a number of them, which I think is the point.
I've found that it heavily depends on your AT if they're an annoyance or sheer poison. Traditionally, the ATs that suffer the most from this are meleers who are built to take the hit and move on. Def builds don't care all that much and Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders and MMs don't really care one way or another in my experience. (Granted, some might, but not the sets I'm playing, not even the heavily Recharge-dependent Kins).
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Winston Churchill
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Seems like you found a piece of paper to your rock.
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A few years ago a "scrapper driver" suggested that Rularuu Overseers ought to be nerfed because they were apparently the only critters that actually gave him a challenge or some such. It was almost as if he was personally outraged that the Devs would put in an enemy that he'd actually have to "worry" about. 
I personally don't think there are any challenges in this game that are "tough" enough to have to be limited any further than they already are. I didn't even think the original Quants and Voids were that hard against Khelds, but I suppose my definition of what's hard seems to be set at a higher standard than others...
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Honestly? Signed.
And not because they're 'hard'. They're not, not even if you've got a respectable pile of them. Really, they don't do enough damage to be much of a danger even to squishies, not even in large numbers.
But they're in every... [censored]... spawn. In a single Council mission, you're going to be fighting dozens of the irritating, useless nuisances even on Heroic/Villainous. They don't even do anything, they're just "Oh look. I'm slowed to a crawl. Again. Whee."
Either make the sods dangerous, or lose the stupid slow. I hate 'em. They're boring and slow everything down to no real effect.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
Well honestly I've probably run 100s (if not 1000s) of Council missions both solo and on teams and these Marksmen have never bothered me enough (running all kinds of ATs) to even notice an undue annoyance from them in the slightest.
To compare Council Marksmen to Malta Sappers is like comparing the annoyance levels of a mosquito to an atom bomb. I suppose there are just maybe like 93 other things that annoy me more when I'm fighting them than these guys. *shrugs*
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Well, note that I never compared them to Malta Sappers- no real comparison, to be honest.
I just despise them, especially at low levels (where you'll still be encountering them >.< when you've only got a few attacks. At high levels, yeah, they barely even qualify as a nuisance.
And on a Kheld.. ugh. The number of times I've been crab-tanking one of the HEAT missions (which start feeling like the All-Council Revue after a while) and been reduced to sitting there, watching ten or so of the aggravating sods plink at me to no real effect while my recharge starts running backwards... just... GAH!
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
Well I guess my main point (and the one I think posters like Eisregen were alluding to as well) is that it doesn't really bother me that there are perhaps a few enemy types in this game that are relatively "annoying" or difficult for any given powerset/AT combo. If there was absolutely nothing in this game that made a given character of mine have to 'worry' about them then it would be a mighty boring game.
I think critter types like the Council Marksmen should only be changed if EVERYONE universally has a problem with them. I'm quite sure there are plenty of powerset/AT types out there who don't even consider them a mild annoyance much less one than needs to be nerfed.
As far as Khelds go you supposedly played this game long enough to get a level 50 character before you have a Kheld. If you can't figure out how to tactically handle a situation with a bunch of Quants and Voids then that's not really the Devs' fault. The relative difficultly Khelds have is supposed to be your "reward" for being an experienced player. So called "epic" ATs aren't meant to be easy, they are meant to provide an "epic" level challenge for their players. Frankly I thought it was sad when the Devs nerfed that challenge.
Remember even Superman has his Kryptonite.
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I think critter types like the Council Marksmen should only be changed if EVERYONE universally has a problem with them. I'm quite sure there are plenty of powerset/AT types out there who don't even consider them a mild annoyance much less one than needs to be nerfed.
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See, I don't think you're catching my meaning here.
I don't think Council Marksmen are a 'problem'. They're... speedbumps. In a game that prides itself with fast-paced, kinetic combat, having a particular enemy group that can just overload you with slows (and yeah, when you've got 3-4 Marksmen in a single spawn, you're going to be crawling), but not do much else... it's just... bleah.
I'm going to try and spell this out clearly.
Council Marksmen are not dangerous; they're boring.
They bring combat to a grinding, shuddering halt and contribute nothing else, and are only even remotely dangerous if they're combined with something else. They're like enemies with cage powers; it doesn't really accomplish much, other than make it so you can't do anything for a while.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
Well.. considering Council is just barely above a fluffy kitten on threat level to most heroes, I'd say they don't really need to change anything, then. Stopping you from having access to your powers does slow you down - and it can be lethal in some situations.
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Stopping you from having access to your powers does slow you down - and it can be lethal in some situations.
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Not often enough. It's the fact that they're so low-threat that bugs me, to be honest. Council are bland enough as it is, and adding in things that make their missions take even longer through their stupid ratmaze bases? Blech.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
I dont think limiting them to 1/spawn is necessary
I would like to see them pulled from the level 1-10 range spawn tables.
When you have only 2-3 attacks and those without any reasonable slotting, the -recharge make things much more unfun than it needs to be.
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I dont think limiting them to 1/spawn is necessary
I would like to see them pulled from the level 1-10 range spawn tables.
When you have only 2-3 attacks and those without any reasonable slotting, the -recharge make things much more unfun than it needs to be.
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This I agree with. Bump them up to 15-30, for me. =-3
-Rachel-
The marksmen are pretty annoying. My opinion is that most of the challenges in the game don't really defeat you, but simply slow you down in some way. What I think the dev can do is to buff the councils, such that when the marksman slows you down, the rest of the councils can actually defeat you. 
Atomic bombs are really that annoying unless you have to live in the fallout.
Oh, come on, that'd be taking a good chunk of the challenge out of the council.
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Council Marksmen have these horrible Cryo round bullets that slow you down a lot. If you get 2 or three of these in a spawn and can't manage to stop one or two of them quickly, they can all but shut down your recharge. They really should be limited to only one Marksman per spawn, like Sappers are.
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I find it sad that you would complain about marksmen of all things. Prehaps the Vahz tranq darts from the beginning being annoying? Besides I'm sure theres plenty of harder stuff that slows you down. (But then again I might be playing MA too much)
I'd rather see the War Wolves fixed first, myself. But yeah, I do find Marksmen to be incredibly irritating. Don't forget that they get a slow, a reasonably nasty DoT, and most importantly, knockdown.
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Council Marksmen have these horrible Cryo round bullets that slow you down a lot. If you get 2 or three of these in a spawn and can't manage to stop one or two of them quickly, they can all but shut down your recharge. They really should be limited to only one Marksman per spawn, like Sappers are.
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I find it sad that you would complain about marksmen of all things. Prehaps the Vahz tranq darts from the beginning being annoying? Besides I'm sure theres plenty of harder stuff that slows you down. (But then again I might be playing MA too much)
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Only Vahz Lts get those tranq darts. I shouldn't have to explain that Lieutenants are much less common than minions, or that Vahz cap out at 20 while Council stick around til 50.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Either make the sods dangerous, or lose the stupid slow.
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I'd agree with that. They're not like Sappers, where they're weak alone, but they set you up so the rest of the spawn wipes you out. They do next to no damage, even with the flame rounds, and the -recharge isn't a big enough penalty to make the rest of the spawn a challenge. Council as a whole aren't strong enough to capitalize on the stumbling block the way Malta are. Maybe if one of the other attacks did more damage, or added another debuff or mez, the Marksmen would be dangerous rather than merely annoying.
We'll always have Paragon.
I agree with NeverDark and TeChameleon. No reason to make the game any easier than it already is.
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Only Vahz Lts get those tranq darts. I shouldn't have to explain that Lieutenants are much less common than minions, or that Vahz cap out at 20 while Council stick around til 50.
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I'm reasonably sure the Reaper minions also have them. Plus Vaz are actually very dangerous to lowbies since they do toxic damage few characters can resist or defense against and in higher quantities than most other sources of any damage around that level. The LT. shoots you, the abomination then catches you and pukes on you, and then the other explodes and you wonder why you just died in several seconds on heroic. (Exaggeration, of course.)
Back on topic, I remember the Council Marksmen being a terror to my Peacebringer when she was a lowbie since I couldn't resist the damage yet, had low health, and almost no damage. Now, they're just a mild nuisance. Heck, by the time you're level 10 or so, a Skull/Hellion/Lost/whatever Brawler is more dangerous because they attack so fast. If there's anything the Council spawns that ever worries me on some of my toons, it's the War Wolves with their high, knocking back smashing damage, higher health, higher speed, and the fact they laugh at attempts to slow them or stop them.
On the other hand though, Council Marksmen are more dangerous than the minion level Galaxy soldier...
Here's another idea: give the Marksmen a new power. This power does nothing for the Marksman, but all nearby Marksmen have their slows reverse-power boosted (as in, they get weaker). This way, when you have multiple Marksmen nearby, their slows get weaker and weaker. A sort of "Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu" for Marksmen's cryo rounds.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Doing that would be difficult to code AND would make it so that if I get shot and slowed, you can avoid the slow by staying close to me.
An easier solution would simply be to give it the "doesn't stack regardless of caster" flag that Vengance has, instead of the "doesn't stack from same caster" tag it currently uses.
@Roderick
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Council Marksmen have these horrible Cryo round bullets that slow you down a lot. If you get 2 or three of these in a spawn and can't manage to stop one or two of them quickly, they can all but shut down your recharge. They really should be limited to only one Marksman per spawn, like Sappers are.
[/ QUOTE ]... Because we all know how difficult council are.
Council Marksmen have these horrible Cryo round bullets that slow you down a lot. If you get 2 or three of these in a spawn and can't manage to stop one or two of them quickly, they can all but shut down your recharge. They really should be limited to only one Marksman per spawn, like Sappers are.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.