Going Back To i12 pvp petition?
By
Akuma_Mishima,
Posted on: 2009-04-26 14:28 in Everything about PvP
This thread isn't going to go anyplace. Take a step back and look at it from a business perspective:
1. Going back to i12 would mean that months of programming were wasted. And lets be honest, some things in i13/14 aren't that bad (selectable maps, extra arena options). The real question they business would need to ask is: Would people come back to the game if they reverted the PvP changes? I would doubt it at this point, to be honest.
2. Going back to i12 would alienate the new people that actually like i13/14 PvP for what it is. I can't fault someone for liking the new PvP even though I can't see how in the world they can. I can't understand why people like liver, but it doesn't negate from the fact that some people truly enjoy the food.
3. The most successful MMOs in the past have always looked forward and improve with a forward vision. Looking back leads to delays and un-innovative content.
4. Looking at the track record for the programmers of this game - if they make a change, they stick to it and weather the storm. i4/i5/i6 nerfs are a prime example of this. Adding loot to the game is an example. These changes are most likely not going to get pulled (Imagine having to revert in old code and then put the new content from i13/14 on it it would take months to get right.)
The PvP I knew and loved in i12 is not here anymore. I may not like what's replaced it, but until we receive hard numbers from the data mining collected, no one can really say which version is more popular. For all I know, i14 PvP is more productive and generally more enjoyable.
There are several changes I would like to see in i15/16 in regards to PvP:
1. Find a way to make support viable again. I have listed several different ways I would changes Heal decay/Mez resistance vs. protection/DR to allow support players to have a role in the past. I would personally like to see:
-All CM/Clarity/ID/etc to give protection up to a certain point. This would be beneficial for people that want to run offensive toggles that are currently forced to retoggle every 10 seconds.
-Lessen heal decay/DR from inspirations. Since you can only have 20 at a time, if you are careless and pop them too soon, you will be eaten alive later in the match.
-Heal casters should have no heal decay. If heal decay is required to stay, I guess self heals could decay.
-All suppression to be buffable. I was never a fan of the blanket "No suppression" movement that swept these boards during the beta. Suppression has a place in PvP, but it should be overcome by teamwork or using a toon that has a 'no suppression power' (Elude)
2. Please add in more options to the arena PvP kiosks
-Larger than 8v8s (no SG) battles
-Turn on/off Mez protection/resistance
-Turn of/off Global resists
3. Arena kiosks in zones please (At the rings in sirens, at the globe of warburg, at city hall in RV - not sure in bloody bay) Exemp each user to their zone respective zone levels by default (fighting at level 30 doesn't exist at the moment).
4. If mission architect ever gets to the point that we can fully customize a map (instead of just using normal maps or reskinning maps). Allow PvP missions to be created. These would have to be scheduled obviously, but one team can attack, the other can defend and then switch. Similar to base raids, but allow for more dynamic goals:
-How bout a Counter Strike mission, where your team has to find and kill the other team before time runs out.
-Capture the flag would be fun
-First person to launch a warburg nuke wins (You can kinda to this now if you get people who you trust and want to have a good time)
5. And finally, please either add a zone that lets you have cross faction teams. I would change RV to this method instead of adding a zone, but thats just me.
In closing (Yes this is another long winded post, but I like to hear myself talk in my head), If we - the players - want more changes to PvP, we should focus on what we specifically want changed. This almost sounds like a wasted exercise, because we already did this once. But, in the end, asking 'canIhasi12PvPnao?' is just going to get ignored. Asking for an i12 button for arena will probably get ignored. I honestly think the developers of this game are very creative people, and if we come up with some suggestions that might spur their creativity, we may see some nice enhancements.
The other thing we can do is continue [censored] about the current PvP setup - but that hasn't lead us anywhere.
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This thread isn't going to go anyplace. Take a step back and look at it from a business perspective:
1. Going back to i12 would mean that months of programming were wasted. And lets be honest, some things in i13/14 aren't that bad (selectable maps, extra arena options). The real question they business would need to ask is: Would people come back to the game if they reverted the PvP changes? I would doubt it at this point, to be honest.
2. Going back to i12 would alienate the new people that actually like i13/14 PvP for what it is. I can't fault someone for liking the new PvP even though I can't see how in the world they can. I can't understand why people like liver, but it doesn't negate from the fact that some people truly enjoy the food.
3. The most successful MMOs in the past have always looked forward and improve with a forward vision. Looking back leads to delays and un-innovative content.
4. Looking at the track record for the programmers of this game - if they make a change, they stick to it and weather the storm. i4/i5/i6 nerfs are a prime example of this. Adding loot to the game is an example. These changes are most likely not going to get pulled (Imagine having to revert in old code and then put the new content from i13/14 on it it would take months to get right.)
The PvP I knew and loved in i12 is not here anymore. I may not like what's replaced it, but until we receive hard numbers from the data mining collected, no one can really say which version is more popular. For all I know, i14 PvP is more productive and generally more enjoyable.
There are several changes I would like to see in i15/16 in regards to PvP:
1. Find a way to make support viable again. I have listed several different ways I would changes Heal decay/Mez resistance vs. protection/DR to allow support players to have a role in the past. I would personally like to see:
-All CM/Clarity/ID/etc to give protection up to a certain point. This would be beneficial for people that want to run offensive toggles that are currently forced to retoggle every 10 seconds.
-Lessen heal decay/DR from inspirations. Since you can only have 20 at a time, if you are careless and pop them too soon, you will be eaten alive later in the match.
-Heal casters should have no heal decay. If heal decay is required to stay, I guess self heals could decay.
-All suppression to be buffable. I was never a fan of the blanket "No suppression" movement that swept these boards during the beta. Suppression has a place in PvP, but it should be overcome by teamwork or using a toon that has a 'no suppression power' (Elude)
2. Please add in more options to the arena PvP kiosks
-Larger than 8v8s (no SG) battles
-Turn on/off Mez protection/resistance
-Turn of/off Global resists
3. Arena kiosks in zones please (At the rings in sirens, at the globe of warburg, at city hall in RV - not sure in bloody bay) Exemp each user to their zone respective zone levels by default (fighting at level 30 doesn't exist at the moment).
4. If mission architect ever gets to the point that we can fully customize a map (instead of just using normal maps or reskinning maps). Allow PvP missions to be created. These would have to be scheduled obviously, but one team can attack, the other can defend and then switch. Similar to base raids, but allow for more dynamic goals:
-How bout a Counter Strike mission, where your team has to find and kill the other team before time runs out.
-Capture the flag would be fun
-First person to launch a warburg nuke wins (You can kinda to this now if you get people who you trust and want to have a good time)
5. And finally, please either add a zone that lets you have cross faction teams. I would change RV to this method instead of adding a zone, but thats just me.
In closing (Yes this is another long winded post, but I like to hear myself talk in my head), If we - the players - want more changes to PvP, we should focus on what we specifically want changed. This almost sounds like a wasted exercise, because we already did this once. But, in the end, asking 'canIhasi12PvPnao?' is just going to get ignored. Asking for an i12 button for arena will probably get ignored. I honestly think the developers of this game are very creative people, and if we come up with some suggestions that might spur their creativity, we may see some nice enhancements.
The other thing we can do is continue [censored] about the current PvP setup - but that hasn't lead us anywhere.
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wow nice post i agree with you 100% are you sure u dont work for the devs? lol now i wanna go play CS after those ideas! MY god that would be so cool if we can make are owne small pvp maps! I like all of those ideas to bad it wont ever happen. and im still waiting for items of powers to come back.... and we will never see that again =( that was so fun back in the day.
Positron's comments on PvP
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On PvP:
04-28-2009 18:21:19 [Local] Delenda: any new in Pvp? a capture the Flag mode for exemple? new arena modes?
04-28-2009 18:21:39 [Local] Positron: We're working on some new arena modes, no idea when they will be done though
04-28-2009 18:21:47 [Local] Sunblushed Horizon: Can I just ask with the amount of problems that this new PvP has caused and the amount of begging asking for a i12 pvp re-roll with some additions from now. what is the devs current view on (sorry for personal opinion) the disgrace pvp currently is
04-28-2009 18:22:18 [Local] Positron: We love the way PVP currently is
04-28-2009 18:27:14 [Local] Sunblushed Horizon: how about not taking it from a devs point of view i now i12 pvp had its problems but this new pvp system has even more
04-28-2009 18:27:19 [Local] Sunblushed Horizon: how is that an imporvment
04-28-2009 18:27:51 [Local] Positron: I think the old PVP system was severly flawed, and the new one is still flawed, but far less so.
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Told ya so 
Posi also believed that certain AT's were unbeatable in PvP, so it shows that he really doesn't have too much of an idea of what he's talking about.
As a PvE dev, fine, but he needs to stay away from the PvP aspect of the game and get someone better suited for the job in there.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Nope, I enjoy the new PvP more than the previous version.
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I'm honestly interested, what do you enjoy more?
Please compare and contrast the "old" system vs the "new" system. Be sure to show your work for full marks 
Personally, everything I find improved could have been added to the old system like pvp rewards, the -range on taunt (as long as it rolls a tohit), and...well that's all I've got at this time, but I do know there are a few more details I personally like that were implemented.
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Okay I'll bite, though honestly, everything stated here in is just my own personal experience and opinion, Your experience and opinions may differ and that is fine, I am just stating my opinion.
I've found that a fight lasts longer. Honestly, instantly dying as was often the case in pre-I12 wasn't fun if I were the winner or if I were the loser [Mostly loser]. With travel suppression, toons can still joust but my melee toon does have a chance to hunt them down and deliver the hurt. I've seen a situation where one controller and 3 or 4 Empaths frustrated 20 some villians going after the RV AV's, I doubt that is possible anymore. I also feel that melee is viable now.
In general my PvP experience has been more positive now than it was before. And just to re-illiterate, this is all just my personal opinion and experience, if it differs with yours, that is okay. The world would be a strange place if we were all the same.
"I accidently killed Synapse, do we need to restart the mission?" - The Oldest One on Lord Recluses Strike Force
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As a PvE dev, fine, but he needs to stay away from the PvP aspect of the game and get someone better suited for the job in there.
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seems like the harder developers try to "make pvp gud" they fail harder.
has there been any dev who's been singled out as either successfully developing or improving pvp in any MMO? my knowledge of many MMOs, especially their pvp history, is very limited.
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Posi also believed that certain AT's were unbeatable in PvP, so it shows that he really doesn't have too much of an idea of what he's talking about.
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Wow, which build did he think was unbeatable?
He never specified. It was in the tentonhammer interview for i13. He said, and I quote, "certain AT's were unbeatable" and another list of non-PvP'er complaints about how certain techniques were "unfair and unfun"
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
owwww
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As a PvE dev, fine, but he needs to stay away from the PvP aspect of the game and get someone better suited for the job in there.
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yeah we got Castle.......................
Oh and btw, i asked Castle today on test if it would be possible to add no heal decay option so players wouldn't be forced to play with DR off just to get rid of heal decay...
answer was: It is hard, no
:/
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owwww
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As a PvE dev, fine, but he needs to stay away from the PvP aspect of the game and get someone better suited for the job in there.
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yeah we got Castle.......................
Oh and btw, i asked Castle today on test if it would be possible to add no heal decay option so players wouldn't be forced to play with DR off just to get rid of heal decay...
answer was: It is hard, no
:/
[/ QUOTE ]I wished you'd have aked for a i12 button in arena, and seen his response. I could live with that.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
As Posi said "we love the way pvp is currently"
Pretty hard to interpret that any way but one. If you enjoyed i12 pvp and want it to shift back toward that design it isn't happening in this game.
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He never specified. It was in the tentonhammer interview for i13. He said, and I quote, "certain AT's were unbeatable" and another list of non-PvP'er complaints about how certain techniques were "unfair and unfun"
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I bet it was Mind/Thorns Dom. UNBEATABLE!
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He never specified. It was in the tentonhammer interview for i13. He said, and I quote, "certain AT's were unbeatable" and another list of non-PvP'er complaints about how certain techniques were "unfair and unfun"
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I bet it was Mind/Thorns Dom. UNBEATABLE!
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It was actually all those AR/Darks you hear about clearing out the zones, and totally schooling rad/psi defenders in the arena.
Damn AR/Darks, take THAT society!
Former King of PWNZ
Franziska Von Karma says you will listen to every word I say.
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Posi also believed that certain AT's were unbeatable in PvP, so it shows that he really doesn't have too much of an idea of what he's talking about.
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Wow, which build did he think was unbeatable?
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The only thing that I can kinda see as 'unbeatable' would be a double phase ice/em tank in i11 - but ive seen good rad/psis win there too
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Posi also believed that certain AT's were unbeatable in PvP, so it shows that he really doesn't have too much of an idea of what he's talking about.
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Wow, which build did he think was unbeatable?
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The only thing that I can kinda see as 'unbeatable' would be a double phase ice/em tank in i11 - but ive seen good rad/psis win there too
[/ QUOTE ]I used to think in i10 good reg stalkers were unbeatable until i seen a gravity rad controller kick his virtual butt all across the arena. I then later believed a good fire/fire dom was virtually unbeatable, until i seen a em/sr stalker wreck him in the arena, all i remember was him kiting and got TF'd in the head to his death lol. I can go on the point is... THAT was pvp at it's best, a good player, good build that's tough to beat is countered by another good player with good strategy. Now pvp is like a cookie cutter, button mash fest and it's sad. Who can mash out the most damage before they die? The New PvP? It's not about the builds or the strategy, it's about the mash...
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
Maybe Castle got the idea for the pvp changes from the same select few "i got a pocket dev" buddies he entrusted the restructuring of dominators to.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post13396958
Leader of the NITES of DARKNESS VG
Join my fan club today!
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Maybe Castle got the idea for the pvp changes from the same select few "i got a pocket dev" buddies he entrusted the restructuring of dominators to.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post13396958
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I think the changes to PvP stemmed from:
1. Survey that went out by ncsoft that had PvP on it?
2. Base raid play testing that 'wasn't fun' when the devs were testing some base raid changes (I would have suggested either bringing a Kinetic or asking whoever was playing the earth controller to stop putting quicksand in front of the raised door)
3. The extreme skill cap that PvP had. Lets face it, the players who practiced PvP were a whole lot better than the ones that didn't and thats not right! Now the training wheels are on and its like someone put saltpeter into the community's drink
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Maybe Castle got the idea for the pvp changes from the same select few "i got a pocket dev" buddies he entrusted the restructuring of dominators to.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post13396958
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I think the changes to PvP stemmed from:
1. Zone first timers that expected to solo an enemy team
2. People going afk only to get WTFPWNT by a stalker, then complaining about it
3. The extreme skill cap that PvP had. Lets face it, the players who practiced PvP were a whole lot better than the ones that didn't and thats not right! Now the training wheels are on and its like someone put saltpeter into the community's drink (can't mess with that one, it's pretty spot on)
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"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Maybe Castle got the idea for the pvp changes from the same select few "i got a pocket dev" buddies he entrusted the restructuring of dominators to.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post13396958
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I think the changes to PvP stemmed from:
1. Survey that went out by ncsoft that had PvP on it?
2. Base raid play testing that 'wasn't fun' when the devs were testing some base raid changes (I would have suggested either bringing a Kinetic or asking whoever was playing the earth controller to stop putting quicksand in front of the raised door)
3. The extreme skill cap that PvP had. Lets face it, the players who practiced PvP were a whole lot better than the ones that didn't and thats not right! Now the training wheels are on and its like someone put saltpeter into the community's drink
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Lighthouse told us that the PvP changes were not for the PvP players, I take that to mean past, present or future given how small the PvP playerbase is in game and those who didnt PvP wouldnt be interested regardless of "rules"
I see the PvP zones simply as a live testbed for Castles bad ideas on how to "save" COx with CO and DCU coming up fast. I just wonder how many powersets we could have had with all the effort he went through to ruin PvP and turn it into a generic fistfight where primary melee attacks are not worth taking when you can get the ET beating wonder that is flurry
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I just wonder if everyone who prefers i12 style pvp over this new pvp, if we all made a petition would castle change it back?. With hard numbers of player base disapproving of the new pvp?
Castle has to be a reasonable man, i just refuse to believe he's this stubborn on purpose. When i13 was in closed beta, we pointed out what wasnt really good about it and he just seemed to ignore us. Then that whole debacle with the "things you like positive about i13 pvp" (which was like 3 pages long) And "The things you don't like about i13 pvp" (which was like 100 or so pages long)
It was an incredible disparity, sometimes you just have to man up and go back to the drawing board. I13 clearly needed to be reworked, re thunk, redid, reconditioned and any other re's i missed just take it away. I did well in i12 pvp, i did well in i13 pvp, i guess what? still do well in i14 pvp. And to be honest i can use toons in i13-14 pvp that i didn't really excel with in i12 or before i12.
Yet i12 was way more fun, more competitive, less button mashers, all it needed was a tweak here or there. A buff to a set here, a added power there and it would be cool. But i put this out there and hopefully the devs will look at it.
I12 pvp in it's old form, add the new patrons/epics, buff weaker sets like dark melee, electric blast. Add the taunt -range deal, i can even take DR on outside buffs heals. That would be cool DR on OUTSIDE BUFFS or HEALS, Id even suggest a feature that makes buffs weaker the further you are from the caster that would cut back on base bot using super toons.
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Uh NO...I like pvp just the way it is, thank you.
No dropping toggles and no assassin strike being unresistable.
AS is unresisted again.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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...And for someone to even make a comment like adapt in move on probably wasn't successful in pvp until i13. Or just can't understand the difference, from lack of pvping. And yes it's a shame when things have gotten so bad that the old way seems good in comparison.
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Let's get something really clear. The players in old pvp...the pre I-13 widow players, the 3 button click stalkers, the perma-doms with 4 accounts to buff their character and teleport them to safety...may have been successful, but that does NOT mean they were any good. These are not the types of players that make good company on teams.
The players, like me, that love pvp, think all the complainers and whiners of old pvp are out to lunch. So, now that I've said my piece I'm going to RV and I'm going PWN me some stalkers...like I always do.
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Maybe Castle got the idea for the pvp changes from the same select few "i got a pocket dev" buddies he entrusted the restructuring of dominators to.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post13396958
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I think the changes to PvP stemmed from:
1. Survey that went out by ncsoft that had PvP on it?
2. Base raid play testing that 'wasn't fun' when the devs were testing some base raid changes (I would have suggested either bringing a Kinetic or asking whoever was playing the earth controller to stop putting quicksand in front of the raised door)
3. The extreme skill cap that PvP had. Lets face it, the players who practiced PvP were a whole lot better than the ones that didn't and thats not right! Now the training wheels are on and its like someone put saltpeter into the community's drink
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Lighthouse told us that the PvP changes were not for the PvP players, I take that to mean past, present or future given how small the PvP playerbase is in game and those who didnt PvP wouldnt be interested regardless of "rules"
I see the PvP zones simply as a live testbed for Castles bad ideas on how to "save" COx with CO and DCU coming up fast. I just wonder how many powersets we could have had with all the effort he went through to ruin PvP and turn it into a generic fistfight where primary melee attacks are not worth taking when you can get the ET beating wonder that is flurry
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Yawn...thou doth protest too much.
no Travel Suppression kthxbye!