How to Deter Farming and Improve Missions Overall
By
Adam_Alpha,
Posted on: 2009-04-22 09:54 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Risk v Reward. This is a common formula in every mmo that a player looks at.
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I'm gonna have to call "citation needed." What makes you think that?
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1) Increase exp from Contact missions.
---> Make it so that, while in a mission given to you by a contact, all exp is increased. You can do this by either making it so that there is a set 25% bonus to all or every enemy you defeat gives exp as if it was actually +1-2 levels higher than it really is.
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That... kinda seems like the opposite of risk vs reward, if that's your paradigm here. It's more like, "Hey! Free reward!"
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2) Get rid of defeat x enemies in contact arcs.
3) Change newspapers/radios. Details below.
4) Eliminate all exp gained from AEs and instead replace it with a form of 'build-up' experience bonus.
5) For redside only: Eliminate or decrease the massive number of longbow that occur during mayhem missions (at least in early levels).
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In fact... none of these really seem to embrace that idea. What it seems more like you're asking for is a streamlining of non-MA missions and the removal of all MA rewards (since you mention at the top that you're using 'exp' to refer to experience, influence, and prestige) except tickets... which, you know, pretty much guts it. That's especially odd considering your initial line -- some MA content is among the most challenging in the game.
Plus, none of that really accomplishes what you set out in the title. Farming missions still exist -- the demon farm, the pantheon farm, freak farms, etc -- and these are all Contact missions. Your initial idea would increase most rewards from those by 25%!
So give it a bit more thought, and clarify in your own mind what exactly you're trying to accomplish.
My suggestions to reduce non-AE farming:
1. Don't allow players to reset missions.
2. For radio/newspaper, when a player gets freakshow a couple times, the random mission generator will give you something else, for example CoT. Players can get around this by zoning in and out. The random mission generator should not forget the history even the player zones. (I guess the star can be passed around the team, but still the team can only do freakshows a finite number of times consecutively)
3. Certain high-level mobs need an upgrade, for example Freakshows and Councils. They are too easy for a high-level team.
4. Need more new content, and/or revamp some old content. The dev team is always working on it, I believe.
For AE farming, I don't want to say anything yet. The OP suggestion
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4) Eliminate all exp gained from AEs and instead replace it with a form of 'build-up' experience bonus.
---> When you log out now, you gain a bonus to your exp gain. Have this bonus also be gained by doing AEs. There is a max cap you can hit for this, so while doing AEs can give you some good stuff via tickets and faster exp when you level, it makes it so people aren't creating missions for the sole reason to farm.
---> Even if you do farm, it will only help you through one level. So farms will still exist but theyre magnitude will be limited.
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may make people unhappy. Probably we can come up with something less radical than that.
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Risk v Reward. This is a common formula in every mmo that a player looks at.
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I'm gonna have to call "citation needed." What makes you think that?
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He misuses the word "formula". It's more akin to a general consideration. The reward should be equivalent of the risk. Less risk, less reward. More risk, more reward.
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Risk v Reward. This is a common formula in every mmo that a player looks at.
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I'm gonna have to call "citation needed." What makes you think that?
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He misuses the word "formula". It's more akin to a general consideration. The reward should be equivalent of the risk. Less risk, less reward. More risk, more reward.
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Yes. I don't know why but you seem more apt to pick at my post and dissect it as much as possible, instead of adding constructive criticism to make the post plausible. I should expect this, many will flame my post or degrade it because I devalue AE Farms, and many want them to still be in the game.
Actually... The issue is you're encouraging the more common types of farms.
The best 'farms' out there are fighting the banished pantheon, CoT Behemoths, Freakshow, Family, and Carnies in large open areas where many of them spawn in large numbers.
These missions are all Contact-based missions.
The only way to slow down or stop out of Architect farming is not letting the mission reset. Having missions tied to the owner's account so that no matter how many times he logs in the mission is at the same level of completeness.
-Rachel-
I don't get it. Non-AE mission do, or rather they should, be giving more XP. I mean...We don't use up our Patrol in AE. Patrol [u]doubles[u] your XP, therefore we should be getting a crapload more outside AE...Plus, AE gives no Inf, Prestige, or drops, right? (Note: I haven't really played AE outside of Test Mode)
So what the flying fooskah makes AE better, anyways?
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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I don't get it. Non-AE mission do, or rather they should, be giving more XP. I mean...We don't use up our Patrol in AE. Patrol [u]doubles[u] your XP, therefore we should be getting a crapload more outside AE...Plus, AE gives no Inf, Prestige, or drops, right? (Note: I haven't really played AE outside of Test Mode)
So what the flying fooskah makes AE better, anyways?
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Well it doesn't give drops but the inf and prestige it does.
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Risk v Reward. This is a common formula in every mmo that a player looks at.
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I'm gonna have to call "citation needed." What makes you think that?
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He misuses the word "formula". It's more akin to a general consideration. The reward should be equivalent of the risk. Less risk, less reward. More risk, more reward.
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Yes. I don't know why but you seem more apt to pick at my post and dissect it as much as possible, instead of adding constructive criticism to make the post plausible. I should expect this, many will flame my post or degrade it because I devalue AE Farms, and many want them to still be in the game.
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but you ARE contradicting yourself in your OP just a bit.
patrol xp only gives you 1.5 times the xp. not double. and if you play a dev's choice arc, you don't get tickets, you get regular drops.
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patrol xp only gives you 1.5 times the xp. not double. and if you play a dev's choice arc, you don't get tickets, you get regular drops.
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ah, yes... I forgot about that
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patrol xp only gives you 1.5 times the xp. not double. and if you play a dev's choice arc, you don't get tickets, you get regular drops.
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Eh? Huh, I could have sworn it was double. Oh well, the point still stands that you are gaining more than the standard XP amount.
Also, DCs are a moot point, since there's no way a DC would be a farm. Y'know, unless Positron goes on a bender.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
you probably get more then the standard amount because patrol xp isn't used unless you die in a regular MA mission in which it is used against the debt. and you can "farm" a DC. depending on map size. but that makes as much sense as doing it with the regular dev created stuff.
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It's more akin to a general consideration. The reward should be equivalent of the risk. Less risk, less reward. More risk, more reward.
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I don't really think so. MMOs have, since day one, been more about time investment vs reward. Getting the best gear, the best build, etc, always depends on how much prep time the player is willing to invest into it. Consequently, the goal of a player has pretty much always been to minimize time investment and maximize reward.
More general: Any system complex enough to be suitable for an MMO is gameable. The question we want to deal with isn't, "How do we stop people from exploiting the system?", it's, "How do we make the ways in which people exploit the system predictable?"
Think about it like protecting a house. You don't encase the entire house in a block of ugly steel that keeps anyone from getting in or out. You don't even wire up the walls with alarms -- because who's going to dig through the walls when there are windows right there?
/unsigned. I don't feel its a problem, therefore no need to fix it.
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Actually... The issue is you're encouraging the more common types of farms.
The best 'farms' out there are fighting the banished pantheon, CoT Behemoths, Freakshow, Family, and Carnies in large open areas where many of them spawn in large numbers.
These missions are all Contact-based missions.
-Rachel-
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While I'm not discounting that there are contact heavy farm missions, be honest with yourselves. These are few and far in-between. The number of GOOD farms compared to the number of contact missions which aren't are no where near proportional. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few farm mishies.
Best farm: TV. High end farm.
Most abused farms: Both low levels. Red side bank farm at about level 6, but only is viable till about level 8 or so. Blue side has the 4 dropoff points mission, but again only for a few levels and levels go fast at this point.
EITHER way, a good AE farm can QUADRUPLE the xp gained from ANY of these farms. Don't believe me? Go play a farm full of communication officers that are level 54.
As for the risk v reward statement, it's a simple statement to understand. To gain levels, you need exp. To gain fast levels, you need enemies that die fast or pose little threat. In this way, if you look for a group to gain levels you want the greatest possible reward (fast leveling) at the least possible risk (dying multiple times slows the leveling process).
In similar ways, you can look at the hero level 15 task force. This is ripe filled with vahzilok, which at low levels pose great problems to heroes. Why don't you ever see level 12s or so leveling by forming groups to do this taskforce? The answer is simple. While you have the potential to level fast, and while you can get a great reward at the end, the risk of dying outweighs any incentive to do so. It's far easier to just do newspapers, or now, AE farms if you can find one.
So for those who don't understand risk v reward, don't bother posting. It's a simple statement of how most players play the game. MOST. Sure, there are others who don't care about the risks or care about rewards, but I am not referring to this small minority. No, I don't have facts. No, I don't have numbers. No, I don't have signed statements backing up this claim of mine that these people are in 'small numbers'. What I do have is near 10 years of MMO experience... and from what I have witnessed during these years is that most people view the game as a risk v reward system. You can argue if you want, but I rather get back to the original topic, how to deter farming and to improve missions overall.
A dev can shut me up instantly by saying:
According to statistical data mining, there are 50% of the players who run contacts vs other means of leveling, which is a substantial amount that we are proud of.
On the other hand...
According to statistical data mining, only 1% of all missions run every night are contact missions as other players prefer newspapers or AEs.
Yes, the devs do data mine. We don't have the facts, but I ask the devs to look at their numbers. What % of people play contacts vs farms or newspapers now? Before I14, what % played contacts vs newspapers? If both of these numbers are unproportional, then I have a valid point. If both aren't, then my whole topic is pointless and CoX is healthy with no problems of game contect being ignored for other recent contact.
Then again, the devs could be like Blizzard's devs and find that the numbers are unproportional but just don't care. I don't play WoW anymore, but when the first expansion was released no one played the level 60 dungeons anymore. When the second was released, no one played the level 70 dungeons anymore. These were completely ignored for new game play, and the devs didn't care either. People liked the new stuff and to hell with the old stuff. Who knows? None of us do, only the devs know what they want to do.
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with no problems of game contect being ignored for other recent contact.
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People are ignoring content that is, in some cases, five years old to play with the new shinies released a few weeks ago? Say it ain't so!
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
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You can argue if you want, but I rather get back to the original topic, how to deter farming and to improve missions overall.
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It's really hard. In the forum, there are people who like to farm, or think that farming is not a problem and not against any rules. Most discussions will be off topic and what you want to discuss will be drowned.
For the dev, the baseline is to make money. 
They make things that people will pay the subscription to continue to pay their salary.
Back to farming, farming just means repeating something. If you want to discourage farming, there are two basic ways. One is to make repeating impossible. The other is to make new game content to provide alternatives for players.
You can refer to my previous post. There are a couple tricks that players use to repeat a mission, for example resetting a mission. I think something along this line can be done. In general, there are no way to completely stop players from repeating game content. We can do a tf again and again for example.
The other is to make various things for players to do. I think this is where risk vs reward or time vs reward come in. Because now, players have options. Ideally, the options should be equal such that there shouldn't be any bias towards certain content. But practically, this is not the case. As mentioned, players choose to do the same mission over and over again, rather than doing various kinds of missions.
Actually, I don't really know what can be done about it. If the purpose of playing the game is to have some fun without getting bored, then non-farming should be the obvious choice. But some players have "fun" by earning a lot of inf, xp, or purpling their builds, then you can't blame these people for farming.
Sometimes, I think that the only way to get out of all these things is to have no xp, no inf, no items in the game. Then there is no need to farm. In some way, I kinda like the old CoH as there were no items, and inf was just used for buying new costumes. The only farms were xp farms. Now, the game is completely different.
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In some way, I kinda like the old CoH as there were no items, and inf was just used for buying new costumes. The only farms were xp farms. Now, the game is completely different.
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Yeah. I feel like overall, Inventions made the game more interesting, but they also made it much much different than it was at launch. I would put the MA on the same scale as far as change goes.
People run paper missions (and now AE) because, ironically, they're the most team-friendly.
If you're like most supergroups, you've got a bunch of toons at different levels. You want to minimize running between zones, especially deadly ones with snipers. You want to avoid being told to go hunt in hazard zones the lower-levels can't enter. You want to spend the maximum time killing and the minimum time waiting for people to do stuff. You want sidekick and exemplar friendliness so everyone can play together easily.
You don't really get to see story as a team member, unless it's your arc. The game's method of handling text, clues, etc. simply doesn't make that readily possible. So to the overwhelming majority of people, story arc vs. not, makes little difference.
The people who are running story arcs (whether dev or MA) are generally doing so solo, or in a situation where they're routinely sharing (like a couple or family playing together).
I run arcs -- once (or only as many times as is necessary, i.e., to get Ouro and whatnot), and solo. I very much enjoy teaming, though, but for me, team play is a different experience, one driven by gameplay and not story.
I agree that most team members don't know the story when the team is doing a story arc. However, missions from story arcs are usually less monotonic, there can be ambushes, AV, different maps and different mobs. For newspaper, people pick the same mob types, nearly the same map, and actually even the same mission door for a good laugh.
I also agree that if you're playing with friends and there are substantial level difference among the team mates, hazard zones will be a problem. That's why all the threads that suggest putting level restriction to PI are all vetoed. I think the issue here is that when the team doesn't have such level difference, and the decision is still to do newspaper most of the time, then it is quite annoying.
The suggested "fixes" don't make any sense in light of the recent changes and current direction of the game today.
I think the devs have thought all of this out very well, have the actual datamining info and if "they" feel there needs to be adjustments made there will be. They have this covered and don't need any help in this area.
I think the devs should continue to ignore the howls of the few that wish to lord over and control their fellow players gaming experience.
/unsigned
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
At 8:00 tonight I created a new Defender.
At 8:30 that character was level 16. If I had kept playing, he would have been over level 20 before 9:00. The character leveled from level 5 to level 16 within one (incredibly repetitive, dull) mission.
This game only goes up to level 50.
It is a universal rule that players like easy xp. But only at first.
The goal of an experience-based game is to align the gameplay objectives with xp rewards. Right now there is a (presumably unintended) perverse motive that encourages players to slog through unenjoyable content just to level. No one is running Rikti communications officer farms because they find it "thrilling" (tho they might--for a few weeks--be "thrilled" that their character is leveling quickly).
What people mean when they say want "story" is rarely background about the archvillian's childhood. Rather, what they mean is that they want stuff to *happen.* Specifically, what they want is fun missions to be the best way to earn XP, so that the way that the way the game wants you to play is in line with the objectives of having sustained fun.
Farms are fun because they level you quickly. But it isn't sustained long.
I love the AE. I hate the AE. In the first days it existed, I got to try some pretty cool missions. Now I just play farms, because that's the gameplay the game encourages.
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My suggestions to reduce non-AE farming:
1. Don't allow players to reset missions.
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I dislike this suggestion.
Let's say that I have a glowie or a foe stuck in a wall. I'd rather just reset the mission and do it again, solving the problem, than to bother sending a report, wasting an amount of my time waiting (I often play in limited windows of oppurtunity of 1-3 hours) and wasting the time of the GM who could be helping other players. Why prevent me from fixing my own problems?
Reseting missions isn't the problem.
Farming by itself isn't the problem. Heck, the farmers are filling the Market with all those goodies you want to buy and using thier accumulated $Inf to make you rich by buying your drops that you got for free doing missions.
Farmers that annoy by spamming (requests for fillers, blind-invites, etc.) you? The problem there is the spamming, which is annoying no matter what type of spam it actually is.
Farmers that pick up bridges and lowbies and PL them? Now we're getting into PL'ing, which is another can of worms.
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1) Increase exp from Contact missions.
---> Make it so that, while in a mission given to you by a contact, all exp is increased. You can do this by either making it so that there is a set 25% bonus to all or every enemy you defeat gives exp as if it was actually +1-2 levels higher than it really is.
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Can't say I agree with this one. Current EXP is fine on regular missions and increasing it could simply shift the farming emphasis from MA Arcs to something else .. face facts, while I don't farm there will always be someone that finds a way to exploit the system. Why give them another avenue to do so?
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2) Get rid of defeat x enemies in contact arcs.
---> Eliminate all missions that cause street grinding. Instead, replace these with smaller missions. The tailor mission, for example, can have Icon send you after a forming cell nearby their store, instead of having you grind around the area.
---> What this does: First off, if you solo, some of these missions can be very hard as mobs exist in large groups and varying levels of difficulty. It discourages a lot of people from doing the contact. Secondly, it allows teams to go from point a to point b quicker, thus making contacts more inviting.
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I like the idea of doing away with defeat X number of villains on Costume missions and would also inlcude the one for earning an Aura at level 30. Come up with some door missions to accomplish this task. As for doing away with all of them? I think that may be a little bit of overkill. I could definately see cutting back on them in story arcs. Take Striga Island for example .. just about every contact there REQUIRES you to go steet hunt at least once during their mission arc ... Let's cut down on that and just LET me do your "ACTUAL" missions.
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3) Change newspapers/radios. Details below.
---> Make it so that when a player uses a news/radio that four choices are opened up. a: Get the loot/stop a robbery. b: steal an item. c: defeat an enemy. d: rescue/kidnap. A missions give -25% bonus exp on completion, but can be done very fast. B missions give -10% exp because you can stealth to the item without having to kill any foes. C missions give +10% extra exp because you can complete them quickly but you only have to clear one room. D missions give +25% exp because you have to clear the whole mission to guide your npc from one place to the next.
---> This makes it so players have more incentive to get rescue missions and to not just avoid them. Also, this can be even more fine tuned where you get bonus exp based on the enemies you fight. IE: You get more exp off of a vahz steal mission than a hellion defeat mission.
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This idea isn't bad. I'd add a few things First.. At every level there are a number of different villain groups available and yet how often have we seen a set of Radio/newspaper mission come up and all three choices are the exact same group? Taking Talos as an example make it so you get 1 Tsoo, 1 COT, and 1 Council then next time it may be 1 Freakshow, 1 Warrior and 1 Banished Pantheon. Spread it out so players get an opporunity to sample all the group or ignore the ones they simply hate battling.
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4) Eliminate all exp gained from AEs and instead replace it with a form of 'build-up' experience bonus.
---> When you log out now, you gain a bonus to your exp gain. Have this bonus also be gained by doing AEs. There is a max cap you can hit for this, so while doing AEs can give you some good stuff via tickets and faster exp when you level, it makes it so people aren't creating missions for the sole reason to farm.
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Okay I am NOT a big fan of Farming but eliminating all XP from any MA Arc? No I can't see that. There are far too many good story tellers out there and eliminating EXP would mean less players, not looking for a farm but a good mission, from sampling those. Face facts MOST people here want to LEVEL and get whatever rewards they can along the way. As evidence of that look how much easier it became to find players willing to do TFs, Trials, and even battle Giant Monsters once the merit system went into effect. MA Arcs already don't offer up Recipes or Salvage only tickets so if you take away all EXP as well you just turned off the vast majority of players, farmers or not, from wanting to spend any considerable time doing them.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Risk v Reward. This is a common formula in every mmo that a player looks at. As of right now, AE Farms are minimal risk v HUGE rewards. Thus, the rest of the game has been made obsolete as players level solely in AE Farms. There is a fix to this and I offer my ideas here on how to improve ALL aspects of missioning in CoX.
Note: I use the word exp in my post quite often. However, it should be realized that I am using exp as a shorthand to describe exp, influence, and prestige all three in one.
1) Increase exp from Contact missions.
---> Make it so that, while in a mission given to you by a contact, all exp is increased. You can do this by either making it so that there is a set 25% bonus to all or every enemy you defeat gives exp as if it was actually +1-2 levels higher than it really is.
---> What this does: Makes it so that contacts are now viable ways of gaining exp apart from farming newspapers.
2) Get rid of defeat x enemies in contact arcs.
---> Eliminate all missions that cause street grinding. Instead, replace these with smaller missions. The tailor mission, for example, can have Icon send you after a forming cell nearby their store, instead of having you grind around the area.
---> What this does: First off, if you solo, some of these missions can be very hard as mobs exist in large groups and varying levels of difficulty. It discourages a lot of people from doing the contact. Secondly, it allows teams to go from point a to point b quicker, thus making contacts more inviting.
3) Change newspapers/radios. Details below.
---> Make it so that when a player uses a news/radio that four choices are opened up. a: Get the loot/stop a robbery. b: steal an item. c: defeat an enemy. d: rescue/kidnap. A missions give -25% bonus exp on completion, but can be done very fast. B missions give -10% exp because you can stealth to the item without having to kill any foes. C missions give +10% extra exp because you can complete them quickly but you only have to clear one room. D missions give +25% exp because you have to clear the whole mission to guide your npc from one place to the next.
---> This makes it so players have more incentive to get rescue missions and to not just avoid them. Also, this can be even more fine tuned where you get bonus exp based on the enemies you fight. IE: You get more exp off of a vahz steal mission than a hellion defeat mission.
4) Eliminate all exp gained from AEs and instead replace it with a form of 'build-up' experience bonus.
---> When you log out now, you gain a bonus to your exp gain. Have this bonus also be gained by doing AEs. There is a max cap you can hit for this, so while doing AEs can give you some good stuff via tickets and faster exp when you level, it makes it so people aren't creating missions for the sole reason to farm.
---> Even if you do farm, it will only help you through one level. So farms will still exist but theyre magnitude will be limited.
5) For redside only: Eliminate or decrease the massive number of longbow that occur during mayhem missions (at least in early levels).
---> While ambushes happen at certain points and can be minimized by not rushing to the bank right away... early on these ambushes can still be way too much. A level 6 team with 8 members can easily be wiped out by a huge spawn.
---> This will encourage more players to do mayhems in groups. A great number of those I talked to avoid mayhems in groups because of this reason.
Five changes here can make it so players are more open to the rest of the game while still enjoying the benefits of AEs. Offering great rewards from tickets is also a way to get players to farm AEs without going from 1 to 50 in a few hours as well.