How to Deter Farming and Improve Missions Overall
By
Adam_Alpha,
Posted on: 2009-04-22 09:54 in Suggestions and Ideas
What AE Has Done for Me:
- 50th level characters and henceforth epic archetypes are no longer special. There is less resepect for making it to the top now than there was before. Getting my first 50 was a triumph. Getting my second 50 was a joke. The incentive to make it to 50th level and grab ahold of an epic character type that has no firmly distinct advantage over a well-built standard character type - nada.
- The markets have descended into the sewers, anotherwords, it's hard to make influence/infamy at market, because every yahoo that farms ends up flooding the market with rare salvage (now available for a song) or rare recipies (not much better).
- Influence/Infamy flows like water. So friggin' what, if you're holding a 10 million influence CC? A good farmer can make that and more in 15 minutes, no matter their level. It's not worth their time to come, be social, and show off their stuff to other folks - because they know that they can get everything they want from the AE farms.
- Finally, I'd have to say that 1 in 10 or less of the people whom inhabit AE regularly are actually interested in a storyline - which is what AE is for.
Now that I'm done venting, I need to re-adjust. I'm not the sort of person to criticize something (particularly something with so much potential) without offering some possible solutions, of course. Nobody likes to listen to someone just gripe and complain, and I pride myself on being both critical and constructive. Ergo:
- Take the top - level rewards **OUT** of AE. You want the good stuff? Get your butt out there and work for it, hero! Tickets are for cupie dolls and cheap plastic novelties, not invention enhancements and salvage materials of incredible value! On the other hand, what if tickets could be converted into brain storm ideas?
- Reasonably speaking, how much real-world experience can AE provide to a hero? Sure, you might have a good "Danger Room" experience to bring up, but the only thing that is going to push your limits is the real world. Cap all experience gained in AE to some level - maybe 30th or 25th. The rest, you have to earn doing the real stuff.
- Law of diminishing returns: It's true for every other TF - why not for AE missions? You run the same missions more than once every 24 hours, you get less for doing it. Once again, what does a character really learn from doing something over and over and over? Better yet - make the diminishing returns permanent; You run a mission 10 times, and you're not gonna get squat from it. No exp, no tickets, no influence... which brings me to another suggestion...
- No Influence! Radical, I know, but how is playing games going to increase a hero's influence? Really? You should be out busting crime, not constantly training, bub. The mayor isn't going to be impressed with your AE victories, nor is the Statesman, or Vanguard - these people are putting their lives into their work and making real connections. You're living in a different world.
- The rising dawn; Let the farmers farm. The real power lay in the bunch of NEW ACCOLADES that give the regular mission-toting hero or villain an extreme edge over the AE farmers. Perhaps some of these brilliant new accolades could even loosen some of the caps placed on their archetype? Imagine that -real- hero who can tank with her blaster, because she's been through truly unreal situations? I think Accolades are **HIGHLY** undervalued. They're a great system, hard to get, and have the potential to be extremely rewarding.
- Other TFs? How about a super-duper uber marathon TF, which requires you to run all of the current TF's to finish it, but, in return, it gives you an additional enhancement slot? A truly dedicated player might even get it done twice or three times in their gaming career. The value of being able to slot one more full set of (x) may be enough to encourage the ironmen and ironwomen to get out of AE and into the real stuff, once again.
- The Iron Fist; Every single AE arc needs to be approved by other players before it even moves out of test mode and into the published mode. Oh, everyone will be able to -test- play the arc, meaning they can collect badges, and whatnot, but nothing else, until players who have proven their worth and taste give it the thumb's up. Maybe a particular Accolade would be needed to become an official tester, and really - only the players interested in stories rather than farms are going to finish an Accolade for something like that. Then, the pressure is off the developers -and- off the casual players. You want your story published, it has to pass a player-publisher, just like a book in the real world. Then, there would be a little more respect for the players that took the time and went the extra mile, and good players would be rewarded, once again.
Some think that they're entitled to everything from the get-go. I say: Work for it, like I did - then all of the power and the prestige will be worth it.
NC: I've known you guys ever since you started showing up to Gen Con and Origins. Odds are you won't remember me - the convention volunteer that brought you water and sodas when you all were thirsty and couldn't leave your booth. That's cool. I just want you to take a look at this AE thing from a different angle. It's a game to the heroes and villains of your marvelous world. The rewards should be game-like. They should exist, but they should also be secondary, lest AE take over all of the hard work you've put into designing, testing, and publishing everything else. AE could be great, but it could also be (and has been) devestating.
All right, I'm coming up on 2.5 years and I play the game for fun. Very occasionally I farm, but what will keep me coming back to the game, are the story arcs. And to show you how involved in the stories I am, I'll say that I don't care to play the red side much because leading homeless people to an evil scientist to experiment on bothers me -- and I like to be thanked by NPC characters for my "work" on the blue side.
I don't know the inside of the game as well as most of you, but I know that I prefer working for something during a story rather than farming to get something. So I would go with limiting the drops of interesting salvage, recipes in AE/MA. I'd also like to see more bonuses for doing a story-arc TF or book story arc. I love the temp powers.
And though there may be people flooding the game to level fast and farm, how many will join, spend most of their time in AE farm missions and write off the entire game as boring and drop the game?
I'm also a little distressed that the stories I put a lot into are not accessed as much as farm stories, may not be given as many stars as farm stories. That's my problem because my expectations were different -- I was sure that good stories would be valued in AE/MA (and it's my ego pricked, too, because naturally I thought my stories are good. 
)
So, all in all, I am concerned that AE/MA has become a farming community.
Thanks,
Risha
That is a text wall full of doom mate, nothing more nothing less.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm also a little distressed that the stories I put a lot into are not accessed as much as farm stories, may not be given as many stars as farm stories. That's my problem because my expectations were different -- I was sure that good stories would be valued in AE/MA (and it's my ego pricked, too, because naturally I thought my stories are good. )
So, all in all, I am concerned that AE/MA has become a farming community.
Thanks,
Risha
[/ QUOTE ]
If you really are interested in your story arcs getting played put them in your sig, join the Ma arc Finders channel its cross sever and very active, read the [tags] posts here and use them. I have zero understanding of anyone complaining about their arc not getting played that has not done the above and more with over 100,000 arcs to choose from plus the PvE, PvP content.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
The devs don't want farming to interfere with the "normal game". They also don't want to chase off the farmers who enjoy it.
It's hard to know where to draw the lines.
Mostly they just lock down the exploits that give farmers a major edge.
That is what anyone looking at the facts would conclude faced with the reality of what we have in the game today.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Goetikmagus, I'll be blunt. I don't think you have the experience as a CoH player to be making the complaints you are. The second 50 is always easier, it's been that way since the days that 16-28 was a hellish grind. If you're not making money on rare salvage, try uncommon (or even common rolls. They're far more lucrative than people seem to realize).
Accolades are farmable. In fact, many accolade badges are gained almost exclusively through farming (Unveiler being a big example). And any rewards they offer to non-farming players will be almost exactly as valuable to farmers... the question isn't "normal vs farming," it's "casual vs high-end." Casual players will not likely end up with (m)any accolades (even if many are available), but high-end players are likely to end up with all of them. Even aside from Kheldians (which are exactly blaster-tanks), there are plenty of high-end Blaster builds which can tank. Making it easier for them to do so simply widens the divide.
[ QUOTE ]
Goetikmagus, I'll be blunt. I don't think you have the experience as a CoH player to be making the complaints you are.
[/ QUOTE ] Why?
First off the big huge wall of text has got to go.
But to the bring up a point that some have seemed to missed about AE. You CANNOT take XP away from the missions. The devs said that AE is a viable way to level a character.
I have been here for close to 5 years and I still enjoy the normal part of the game but AE has opened up new doors of possibilities. I have found things that can just floor my scrapper which was something that never use to happen. I have run some very kewl content and then some really bad content also.
Maybe they can find an adjustment but just taking away XP from the AE is not the way to go.
Arc 52555: Tower of Darkness
Arc 139668: Bob's Crazy Car Dealership
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Goetikmagus, I'll be blunt. I don't think you have the experience as a CoH player to be making the complaints you are.
[/ QUOTE ] Why?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the complaints indicate either a reactionary attitude or a lack of long-term experience with the game, and his forum join date inclines me to surmise the latter.
To clarify, it's the *complaints* that seem illegitimate to me -- I don't like the suggestions, but the only one with critical problems was the one I commented on.
Well, now - I'm curious, before this turns into a flame war... How much experience do you think I have? Does lack or posession of experience thereof qualify me to have a opinion and post it about what I think is a sincere problem? I think that, having been a part of RPG's for about 30 years qualifies me to know something about game balance and how it can be tweaked. I have played and run publicly and privately. Feedback is always forthcoming, and the developers are as mortal as you and I - sometimes they appreciate a good suggestion.
That having been said, it is my sincere and informed opinion that the AE system **as it is** is harmful to the balance of the game. The solutions I have presented were a collaborative effort with 3 other (casual) players, who don't want to become forum members - they just want to play. So, don't think of my first post as being an ill-thought out, feeble attempt to make others conform. Consider it a playtesting group who threw out the unreasonable suggestions and useless rants, came up with the cream list, and is offering it up for consideration.
Hi:
Farming is an expression of a troubled economy, where the items of interest are way too expensive for normal play to acquire. Because the prices of the market are so stupid, players who really want a capability, for whatever reason, are basically forced into farming.
As a whole, I don't have a problem with farmers, they are doing "Their" thing, and really its not of my business if they are doing it or not; it does not consistntly impact my enjoyment of the game. I chose the word consistent, because famers make the money to pay the stupid market prices and thus continuing to support the moron prices, thus they do impact me, but minimally, for the high prices would remain anyway; regardless of supply and demand. If you think, that supply and demand is really driving this prices, you are saddly mistaken. Supply and Demand while having an "influence" is not the telling factor.
Hugs
Stormy
Finally got to run the comm officers AE mission on a low level character this weekend.
In that one AE mission (we had TWO fire/kins of at least level 35) as I tried to keep everyone bubbled on my L15 FF/Eng defender I made it to level 23.
During the short time it took the wonder_farm_twins to clear out the map I answered no less than a dozen really stupid (in a lore knowledge sense) questions about what we were fighting (comm officers) what those floating glowing masks were (banished panetheon, set as rescues) and other various lore and history questions.
The greatest threat the farm missions from AE pose over everything else is:
It churns out, faster than any other possible thing in the game, level 50 idiots who have no clue how to play their character AND have no idea what exists outside of that funny building in Atlas Park.
I've been on PLs before as a bridge. You sit at a door, you exit the mish when the guy tells you to, you reenter when the guy tells you to. You gain maybe a few levels (talking about the low level character being PLed). In AE, you don't even need bridges anymore, and anchors can actually mock-participate AND be any level.
The economy will always adapt. The real doom, if anyone wants to discuss it, is the absurd PLing that is occuring and how badly it is obscuring the rest of the content in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, now - I'm curious, before this turns into a flame war... How much experience do you think I have?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd guess 1-3 years with MMOs, a few months with CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
Does lack or posession of experience thereof qualify me to have a opinion and post it about what I think is a sincere problem?
[/ QUOTE ]
Am I unqualified to opine to you that your opinion is incorrect? Are statements of fact or consensus (eg: "the second 50 has always been easier") irrelevant to your re-assessment of your opinions?
Don't bait, it's unbecoming.
[ QUOTE ]
I think that, having been a part of RPG's for about 30 years qualifies me to know something about game balance and how it can be tweaked.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. For PnP. This is a different ball game.
You wanna whip 'em out, fine; we'll compare resumes sometime. I don't think you'll come out ahead.
[ QUOTE ]
I have played and run publicly and privately. Feedback is always forthcoming, and the developers are as mortal as you and I - sometimes they appreciate a good suggestion.
[/ QUOTE ]
The low incidence of 'good' suggestions is part of why this forum is in the "for fun" section of the board rather than the "feedback" section.
[ QUOTE ]
That having been said, it is my sincere and informed opinion that the AE system **as it is** is harmful to the balance of the game. The solutions I have presented were a collaborative effort with 3 other (casual) players, who don't want to become forum members - they just want to play. So, don't think of my first post as being an ill-thought out, feeble attempt to make others conform. Consider it a playtesting group who threw out the unreasonable suggestions and useless rants, came up with the cream list, and is offering it up for consideration.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from that. Weight of numbers? ...How large do you think the beta test group was?
I'm not sure which I find more insulting -- the alluded-to idea that of all the hundreds of experienced gamers who beta-tested i14, none of them came up with the ideas you did... or the part where you ignored me saying I was objecting to your complaints as uninformed, not your suggestions (save the accolade one. Where I explained my objection).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, now - I'm curious, before this turns into a flame war... How much experience do you think I have?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd guess 1-3 years with MMOs, a few months with CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
Does lack or posession of experience thereof qualify me to have a opinion and post it about what I think is a sincere problem?
[/ QUOTE ]
Am I unqualified to opine to you that your opinion is incorrect? Are statements of fact or consensus (eg: "the second 50 has always been easier") irrelevant to your re-assessment of your opinions?
Don't bait, it's unbecoming.
[ QUOTE ]
I think that, having been a part of RPG's for about 30 years qualifies me to know something about game balance and how it can be tweaked.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. For PnP. This is a different ball game.
You wanna whip 'em out, fine; we'll compare resumes sometime. I don't think you'll come out ahead.
[ QUOTE ]
I have played and run publicly and privately. Feedback is always forthcoming, and the developers are as mortal as you and I - sometimes they appreciate a good suggestion.
[/ QUOTE ]
The low incidence of 'good' suggestions is part of why this forum is in the "for fun" section of the board rather than the "feedback" section.
[ QUOTE ]
That having been said, it is my sincere and informed opinion that the AE system **as it is** is harmful to the balance of the game. The solutions I have presented were a collaborative effort with 3 other (casual) players, who don't want to become forum members - they just want to play. So, don't think of my first post as being an ill-thought out, feeble attempt to make others conform. Consider it a playtesting group who threw out the unreasonable suggestions and useless rants, came up with the cream list, and is offering it up for consideration.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from that. Weight of numbers? ...How large do you think the beta test group was?
I'm not sure which I find more insulting -- the alluded-to idea that of all the hundreds of experienced gamers who beta-tested i14, none of them came up with the ideas you did... or the part where you ignored me saying I was objecting to your complaints as uninformed, not your suggestions (save the accolade one. Where I explained my objection).
[/ QUOTE ]
...um... Jack? I just thought that I'd add to what you just stated with: A large number of these experienced players that are in the bete testings are also the same players that are experienced enough to write detailed guids for all to use.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's more akin to a general consideration. The reward should be equivalent of the risk. Less risk, less reward. More risk, more reward.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't really think so. MMOs have, since day one, been more about time investment vs reward. Getting the best gear, the best build, etc, always depends on how much prep time the player is willing to invest into it. Consequently, the goal of a player has pretty much always been to minimize time investment and maximize reward.
More general: Any system complex enough to be suitable for an MMO is gameable. The question we want to deal with isn't, "How do we stop people from exploiting the system?", it's, "How do we make the ways in which people exploit the system predictable?"
Think about it like protecting a house. You don't encase the entire house in a block of ugly steel that keeps anyone from getting in or out. You don't even wire up the walls with alarms -- because who's going to dig through the walls when there are windows right there?
[/ QUOTE ]
I love it when something happens that proves your point of view after the fact. Here it is!
"Some of you have taken the stance of "how does power-leveling hurt the game?" and "shouldn't I be able to play the game the way that I want?" What we want to make clear is in order to keep the game fair, balanced, and challenging, we have to maintain a risk:reward ratio," Miller concluded.
So the devs state that there is INDEED A RISK/REWARD ratio fuction into the game.
Your example is nothing more than "your choice" to be farmed. Now somehow AE is bad or needs to be adjusted to stop you from being "tempted" to play in a way that gains faster xp than another way, that's absurd.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.