In before the flame war!
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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In before the flame war!
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Post deleted by Moderator 08
Well, I just hope he hears it from a lot of people. He needs to. So you are saying there are a lot of people out there like me voicing their pleasure at the new system? Because all I see on here is griping by old schoolers.
I just hope they are concentrated on getting the word out to the player base on how cool they've made PvP.
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I just hope they are concentrated on getting the word out to the player base on how cool they've made PvP.
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They'd be lying to themselves so I don't think it's a priority of theirs. At least some of the changes in I14 are for the better but it's too late, really. Many of the really good PvPers have left and - guess what - the new people this system was supposed to draw in never showed up.
Oh, and I'm not an "old school" PvPer. I didn't even start until about a month before I13 went live. I had the itch to PvP and I dislike most of the I13 changes, but once you get bored with the PvE game there's not much else to do.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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OK as I write this I am currently in Siren's. Actually, I am dead on the street in Sirens. It's my first time PvPing under the new rules. Frankly, I like them quite a bit. I particularly like the lack of status protection. But I am confused about dimishing returns. Everyone on the forums gripes about them. But we've currently got this defender and controller in Sirens who are tearing us up. I mean I doubt any of us are experts. I am no expert and am just in there tooling around checking out te new rules. So it could be that these guys are experts. But nonetheless, this defender and controller are owning the zone. So why all the whining and complaining? The New PvP rocks.
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Siren's was always one of the better/balanced zones.
Oh, and that Defense you're in love with now because of Elusivity.... it's getting cut by 2/3rds when I14 drops.
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But nonetheless, this defender and controller are owning the zone. So why all the whining and complaining? The New PvP rocks.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Are you saying that before I13 it would be somehow amazing if a defender and controller wrecked a zone? And are you also saying that because of the I13 changes Defenders and Controllers were somehow NOT owning in the zones before the changes?
Because if you are... well. That's pretty much how things were before I13.
Former King of PWNZ
Franziska Von Karma says you will listen to every word I say.
kin/psy ftw!!!!!!
both b4 and after i13
@The REAL Chop
My teachers always told me to follow my dreams. To bad they are all Nightmares.
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But nonetheless, this defender and controller are owning the zone. So why all the whining and complaining? The New PvP rocks.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Are you saying that before I13 it would be somehow amazing if a defender and controller wrecked a zone? And are you also saying that because of the I13 changes Defenders and Controllers were somehow NOT owning in the zones before the changes?
Because if you are... well. That's pretty much how things were before I13.
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I'm not sure what was unclear about what I was saying. Before I13, defenders and controllers owned. But their buff ability was seriously impeded by I13. Everyone is constantly complaining that defenders were ruined by I13. Well, my exerience showed me that they weren't.
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OK as I write this I am currently in Siren's. Actually, I am dead on the street in Sirens. It's my first time PvPing under the new rules. Frankly, I like them quite a bit. I particularly like the lack of status protection. But I am confused about dimishing returns. Everyone on the forums gripes about them. But we've currently got this defender and controller in Sirens who are tearing us up. I mean I doubt any of us are experts. I am no expert and am just in there tooling around checking out te new rules. So it could be that these guys are experts. But nonetheless, this defender and controller are owning the zone. So why all the whining and complaining? The New PvP rocks.
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Siren's was always one of the better/balanced zones.
Oh, and that Defense you're in love with now because of Elusivity.... it's getting cut by 2/3rds when I14 drops.
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Well, I went into the zones with 26% defense and got hit a fair bit but missed some and I was alright with that. However, if I went in there with 45% defense I can imagine that nothing would have hit me hardly ever. I can see how it would be easy for me to build a super reflexes PvP toon that would be just too far beyond everything else. So I imagine that less elusivity would actually serve to balance a defense toon that was specifically built for PvP. I had read some posts before about SR being too potent on account of diminishing returns, and of course everyone is always complainging about VEATs. So I imagine the elusivility changes are for the better.
I was just happy that my overall lousy defense counted for something. I used to come into the zones with capped defense and it counted for nothing. That's what I thought was wrong. I am sure that my lousy defense will still count for a little bit after the elusivity nerf, and I am sure that top notch defense will still count for quite a bit after it. It just won't be overpowered.
Even with "overpowered" elusivity, it's trivial and fairly inexpensive to build to counter that defense and elusivity to the point where you have a virtually guaranteed win even with someone in a tier 9. At least in RV.
No matter how much you spend on defense, though, you can't counter that +tohit/+acc. DR hits defense harder.
That's what players and the devs don't seem to get: That kind of imbalance doesn't exist for any other form of mitigation.
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Heartbroken
I lurked a lot but I'll miss you allAlpha Team sg, Pinnacle server
Black Citadel vg
Sure, people can still have fun, but AT's dont DO what they are meant to DO. Tanks do too much damage, controllers cannot properly control. DR was a good idea if they want the newbies to be on a similar level to the vets (even though there was no more *new* pvp'rs per month then there was before i13...). Travel Suppression is just annoying, people still run away successfully 90% of the time. The damage changes for everything was pretty crazy. Flurry and Spirit Shark doing upwards of 200 damage, Control/Support AT's just have to build for damage dealing... It's not the way it's supposed to be. Making the PvP world so different from PvE acomplished little/nothing especially when you consider all the people it pissed off.
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Well, my exerience showed me that they weren't.
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Your "experience" of coming to sirens ONE time. Got it. Yes, sounds like you have truly grasped what PvP is all about and have a profound understanding of it.
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Well, I just hope he hears it from a lot of people. He needs to. So you are saying there are a lot of people out there like me voicing their pleasure at the new system? Because all I see on here is griping by old schoolers.
I just hope they are concentrated on getting the word out to the player base on how cool they've made PvP.
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I can assure you that isn't what I was saying.
The vast majority of pvp'ers did not like the changes and either left the game entirely, or shifted much of their focus away from pvp (I'm in the latter group, though I did leave for a few months). The entire high end pvp league pretty much went extinct and while it wasn't a large group of people they were some of the most dedicated players in this game.
Imagine if they killed off badge collecting, not everyone has 42,000+ badges, but the ones that do are intensely dedicated to this game, which wasn't so different from the pvper's, except pvp'ers were also the best players in the game too.
the main group that is singing the praised of Castle's changes are the pve'ers that in all honesty, Castle could show up at their house and kick their puppy across the room and they'd thank him because he can do no wrong in their eyes. The pve'ers that said "oh these changes are teh awesomesauce", but then never showed up again.
That isn't to say that i13 was all bad, there was actually some really good elements added, just every idea the dev team came up with on their own was horrible and overshadowed any positive aspects.
Then there's that group of people who tought CoX's PvP sucked before, and it still sucks now... But hey, it beats fighting NPCs I guess.
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Then there's that group of people who tought CoX's PvP sucked before, and it still sucks now... But hey, it beats fighting NPCs I guess.
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Yep. I think they were going after those people though and failed, though it was pretty easy to point out that it was a lost cause to begin with
people that disdain pvp probably won't suddenly start liking it.
people that don't play this game for pvp probably won't suddenly start just because pvp now has completely different rules than pve 
And if they were actually serious about expanding pvp in this game then they would have incorporated it as a feature into some instanced pve missions ie safeguard/mayhem to give people a taste of the experience without the negatives.
And we'd be able to make MA arcs that have pvp enabled
Except by making pvp 100% different set of rules from pve in i13 these things are never going to be possible, or they will suck if they try.
But you have the blind (pve focused devs) leading the blind (listening to pve'ers for pvp ideas and game balance mechanics) and we end up with them spending vast amounts of time/effort on pvp only to produce a steaming pile.
hard work != good work, it just means they wasted a ton of resources and pvp likely won't see anything major again as this was the final strike.
i4 arena's didn't take off
i7 zones didn't take off
i13 pve'ers didn't flood pvp zones.
We'll get small nuggets I'm sure, like the new pvp IO's and small balance changes as seen in i14, but to think they'll dedicate the majority of an issue to pvp again is doubtful.
You can't blame them for not investing further, it is a failed venture. Of course it has failed due to their inability, but in the end a fail is a fail.
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But nonetheless, this defender and controller are owning the zone. So why all the whining and complaining? The New PvP rocks.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Are you saying that before I13 it would be somehow amazing if a defender and controller wrecked a zone? And are you also saying that because of the I13 changes Defenders and Controllers were somehow NOT owning in the zones before the changes?
Because if you are... well. That's pretty much how things were before I13.
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I'm not sure what was unclear about what I was saying. Before I13, defenders and controllers owned. But their buff ability was seriously impeded by I13. Everyone is constantly complaining that defenders were ruined by I13. Well, my exerience showed me that they weren't.
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That's kind of what I thought you were saying. And to be a bit more clear it wasn't the 'Defenders' as a whole. It was Team Buffers. Which was mostly the defender's role in a team. Debuffs still worked to a point, yes, but it was mostly the team buffing.
Controllers and Defenders role was completely altered in I13, to a Blaster role with some debuffs. THAT is what was mostly compained about. The fact that their controllers and defenders had been altered to blasters instead.
Former King of PWNZ
Franziska Von Karma says you will listen to every word I say.
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OK as I write this I am currently in Siren's. Actually, I am dead on the street in Sirens. It's my first time PvPing under the new rules. Frankly, I like them quite a bit. I particularly like the lack of status protection. But I am confused about dimishing returns. Everyone on the forums gripes about them. But we've currently got this defender and controller in Sirens who are tearing us up. I mean I doubt any of us are experts. I am no expert and am just in there tooling around checking out te new rules. So it could be that these guys are experts. But nonetheless, this defender and controller are owning the zone. So why all the whining and complaining? The New PvP rocks.
[/ QUOTE ]First you only prove what has been said over and over, if you could pvp before i13 you'll still wreck the same people that you did before i13. The only difference is it's not as much fun, the only thing that was accomplished was the FoTm's changed. Just like a defender and a troller can hold down sirens, a good dom and rupter can hold down rv. Hell a good anything and anything can hold down a zone i took my stalker and with the help of a dom held rv down just the other day against like 8 or more heroes.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
I don't really have a problem with new PvP. The only problem I ever had with PvP at all was the attitude of some of the players engaging in it in the zones.
When someone new to PvP comes into Siren's Call with the intention of trying PvP and seeing what it's all about, damage-spiking them over and over and not giving them a chance to even play is likely to leave a bad taste in their mouth, and they will leave with the view that PvP sucks.
That's the main reason there aren't a whole lot of new PvPers, they got repeatedly ganked in their first venture into the zone and left feeling completely ineffective. And when the only advice anyone gives them is "lrn2playnub" it just makes it worse. They were trying to learn how to PvP. Being killed by a team of 8 in less than 3 seconds doesn't exactly give anyone a whole lot of time to learn anything.
It's not hard to tell when someone is new at PvP, when you spot a new player, instead of spiking them to death right away, give them a fighting chance and they might stay interested and, you know, actually come back to the zone.
I enjoy zone PvP myself, but when a zone turns into a one-sided gank-fest, I tend to leave. Even if I'm on the side doing the ganking. Getting killed repeatedly with no chance at all of fighting back isn't fun for me, neither is killing a basically helpless opponent.
I'm perfectly willing to give a newbie a fighting chance against me if it means that there might be a new opponent in the zones out of it. Sometimes I'll even let them beat me in the interest of getting that hook. I mean, what was it that got most of you more hardcore PvPers hooked on PvPing? Most likely it was the first time you defeated another player without assistance from anyone else. It doesn't even matter what game it happened in, the satisfaction of that first kill is probably what made you come back for more.
In the zones in CoX, that first kill almost never happens for someone who has never PvPed before. Since all they accomplished in coming into the zone was dying over and over, they never got that hook getting them to come back, and never PvP again. Hence, no new PvPers.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Post deleted by Moderator 08
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----^ voted best post ^-----
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When someone new to PvP comes into Siren's Call with the intention of trying PvP and seeing what it's all about, damage-spiking them over and over and not giving them a chance to even play is likely to leave a bad taste in their mouth, and they will leave with the view that PvP sucks.
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And yet, you think that its fault of the players? Thats how our PvP was tailored, dude.
If the aforementioned newcomer enters PvP he might experience the same thing some older PvPers do: you're up against a FotM that you dont really stand a chance against, except with that other toon of yours.
What i13 made was making things worse; because if the aforementioned newcomer plays a Controller or a Defender, or is used to see Flurry as a silly chain filler (to name a few things), he will realize that on PvP there are completely different rules altogether without any kind of warning.
Heck, his pretty decent and IO'd PvE character might be just rendered useless due to his powerset choice. Do you find your Dual Blades stylish? Is AT/Arch/AR what made your character so interesting? Well they dont want these sets to be able to pvp, suck on it.
These, while not a complete list, is a decent overview of why no, sir, the PvP is not fine. Wasnt that great before, and now its weird.
- Dual Blades Stalker Guide
- Mastermind guide to Pain Domination
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What i13 made was making things worse; because if the aforementioned newcomer plays a Controller or a Defender, or is used to see Flurry as a silly chain filler (to name a few things), he will realize that on PvP there are completely different rules altogether without any kind of warning.
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That was kind of my point. How is a new player supposed to learn the rules difference if they never live longer than 10 seconds after leaving the hospital? Or even worse in the case of Siren's Call, getting teleported OUT of the hospital with a sliver of health. That is a CHEAP tactic. Viable, yes, but anyone who does it earns my instant ill-will.
FOTM builds are nasty, that is true. The point I was making was, if ONE of them is hard to kill, then how are you supposed to do anything at all aginst EIGHT of them?
And, yeah, that is the fault of the players. A while back I went into Siren's to kill some Warrior bosses and pick a few fights while I was there. Someone wandered into the zone and said in broadcast "So, how does PvP work in this game, I've never done it before." Someone replied that if they met them in the circles they would show them how PvP worked. Predictably enough (I was waiting for it) 5 people showed up and damage spiked the poor guy before he even knew what was going on. The victim went to the hospital, and was teleported out and killed again by a stalker.
Understandably the newbie's response was "WTF, this sucks" and he left the zone. As far as I know he never came back. It's the players doing things like this that chase new PvPers away, not the way PvP works.
If you damage spike ME, oh well, I know what to expect. My options are to try and blindside someone for a kill, or get a team, or come back later when the odds may not be as stacked against me, I don't whine about it.
Someone who has never PvPed before will get frustrated very quickly with their inability to do anything. Sure, maybe their powerset is a bad one for PvP, but they're never going to find that out if they don't get the chance to actually fight.
Badgers that have been around a while, they know what to expect when they go into a PvP zone for a badge, I have no sympathy for them. I do have sympathy for the newbies who want to PvP and no one lets them learn anything.
I never said PvP was fine, I said I had no problem with it, because there is nothing I can do to change the direction it is going in. The above example was nothing more than a small group of players just being jerks to someone they KNEW was new to PvP. And, unfortunately, that seems to be the rule rather than the exception.
I doubt I will ever change my opinion that the jerkwad players are what killed PvP. I still think the PvP changes were a direct result of the devs watching the behavior in the zones and asking themselves "What can we do to give the new people a fighting chance?" I don't agree with how they chose to go about it, but I appreciate the sentiment behind it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Me thinks you completely missed the point of what you quoted.
Let's take this "New Guy" who plays a controller.
He's leveled this character up in PvE, holding enemies for 10 or more seconds at a time. He uses his AT's inherent "Containment" to boost his damage while his enemy is held so he can defeat things in a fairly efficient manner.
He steps into a PvP zone and spots an enemy player. He recognizes it as a Corruptor, an AT vulnerable to his control powers.
He targets the Corruptor and lets fly with his single target hold. It hits. He closes in ready to launch a couple attacks counting on containment to help boost his damage.
Suddenly the Corruptor is free and runs off after only a few seconds.
"Wha!?"
Playing for hours, days, weeks, months or even years with one ruleset then stepping into a zone and have the most basic elements about your character be completely different just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, especially after 4 years.
Now to answer your situation your described.
How would you change the game to control a human being's behavior? Because that's what the problem you describe is.
Blame it on the "PvPers" all you want. They make easy scapegoats.
Still doesn't change the fact that it's not one "type" of player causing problems. It's PEOPLE in general.
The Issue 13 changes did NOTHING to address the real problems PvP in this game has. Why? Because You can't see them on a spreadsheet.
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Me thinks you completely missed the point of what you quoted.
Let's take this "New Guy" who plays a controller.
He's leveled this character up in PvE, holding enemies for 10 or more seconds at a time. He uses his AT's inherent "Containment" to boost his damage while his enemy is held so he can defeat things in a fairly efficient manner.
He steps into a PvP zone and spots an enemy player. He recognizes it as a Corruptor, an AT vulnerable to his control powers.
He targets the Corruptor and lets fly with his single target hold. It hits. He closes in ready to launch a couple attacks counting on containment to help boost his damage.
Suddenly the Corruptor is free and runs off after only a few seconds.
"Wha!?"
Playing for hours, days, weeks, months or even years with one ruleset then stepping into a zone and have the most basic elements about your character be completely different just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, especially after 4 years.
Now to answer your situation your described.
How would you change the game to control a human being's behavior? Because that's what the problem you describe is.
Blame it on the "PvPers" all you want. They make easy scapegoats.
Still doesn't change the fact that it's not one "type" of player causing problems. It's PEOPLE in general.
The Issue 13 changes did NOTHING to address the real problems PvP in this game has. Why? Because You can't see them on a spreadsheet.
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As for the first comment. The effectiveness of a controllers powers always have been different in PVP. As its much different to hold a PVPer then a NPC. This has never changed. What has changed is how the mechanics of Mez/hold system works all together
You see what happened is they had a lot of Bad PVPers and PVErs complain that there powers dont work in PVP. Not understanding that It wasnt the power but the way it has to be utilized in a PVP scenario. There is a difference and Bad pvpers and PVErs dont get that. So the devs say hmmm ok well the PVErs make up most of this game so we better do something So they went and Broke/dumb down the system. So now that same player who entered a pvp zone and watch his Mez powers fail, now he gets to see it work. How ever it still works completely different then in the PVE environment. Not only that , now it ineffectiveness can not be overcome through skill or experience. But its just broke for good. This is how the devs went about fixing things. How ever they claim its Working as intended which to me sounds like BS considering it didnt work that way for the better part of 4 years. It took them that long to get the powers to work as intended? Please
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OK as I write this I am currently in Siren's. Actually, I am dead on the street in Sirens. It's my first time PvPing under the new rules. Frankly, I like them quite a bit. I particularly like the lack of status protection. But I am confused about dimishing returns. Everyone on the forums gripes about them. But we've currently got this defender and controller in Sirens who are tearing us up. I mean I doubt any of us are experts. I am no expert and am just in there tooling around checking out te new rules. So it could be that these guys are experts. But nonetheless, this defender and controller are owning the zone. So why all the whining and complaining? The New PvP rocks.