Guide to Diminishing Returns

Arcanaville · 11-08-2008 03:00 AM

I'm reposting this from the closed beta forums. I haven't checked the open build yet, so my rule of thumb numbers for the diminishing returns parameters for different archetypes might be off: treat as educated guesses until I (or someone else) posts more accurate tables (which I will try to do this weekend if I have time: pretty busy recently. But at least on these forums I have functioning "code" tags for tables).

Warning: if you're not a quant, if you're not knowledgeable in how the game works, if you do not know what Aspects and Attributes are, and don't want to know, just wait for a planner to do the math for you.

Guide follows below:

Guide to Diminishing Returns

The formula for diminishing returns in PvP is:

[u]FinalValue = OriginalValue * (1 - ATAN(A * OriginalValue) * 2/pi * B)[u]

Where ATAN(x) is the ArcTangent of x.

(Note: this is not the dev formula exactly, its expression has been slightly simplified from the original).

However, this requires significant explanation. Here are the rules for diminishing returns.

1. (At the moment) Diminishing Returns only affects players when in PvP zones (including the Arena).

2. Diminishing Returns affects Attribmods.

3. Diminishing Returns only affects Attribmods that affect Res, Cur, and Str Aspects of Attributes.

4. Diminishing Returns affects totals only.

5. The A and B parameters are set per archetype, per attribute, and per aspect.

These rules probably demand some clarification, although Rule #1 is pretty self evident. Its somewhat beyond the scope of this document to describe the inner workings of the game engine in detail, so suffice to say that each Attribute has a Cur (or Current) value, which represents basically what its "value" is. If your Smashing_Attack Cur is 0.2, that means you currently have 20% smashing defense. The Res value attached to each attribute is a measure of how much this thing will resist attempts to change *any aspect* of that attribute. So if Smashing_Attack Res is 0.3, that means this thing will resist 30% of any attempt to change Smashing_Attack Cur, or Smashing_Attack Res, or Smashing_Attack Str. *Any* aspect change will be resisted, unless the change is the result of an unresistable attribmod. Smashing_Attack Str or Strength represents how much to amplify any attribmod (power effect) that this thing casts that affects Smashing_Attack. So if this thing has 1.4 Smashing_Attack Str, that means if this thing casts a 10% Smashing_Attack Cur buff upon itself, that buff would be increased to 1.4 * 10% = 14%.

Real world example: SR scrapper has Focused Fighting, slotted with +0.56 defense enhancement.

Focused Fighting has a 0.13875 Melee_Attack Cur buff (it also has the scaling resistances and other attribmods which we will ignore for now). The slotted enhancements have a total buff of +0.56 Melee_Attack Str (they also have +0.56 Ranged_Attack, +0.56 AoE_Attack, +0.56 Smashing_Attack - you get the idea. Since Focused Fighting doesn't do anything to those attributes, those strength buffs don't do anything to the power, as they have nothing to strengthen). This means as far as Focused Fighting is concerned, the player's Melee_Attack Str is 1.56 (the base strength values for all attributes is 1.0). So when the player runs Focused Fighting, it casts a buff on the player of 0.13875 (13.875%) to the player's Melee_Attack Cur. However, that is strengthened to 1.56 * 0.13875 = 0.21645, or 21.645%. The player's Melee_Attack Cur is now 0.21645.

Now, what the Diminishing Returns rules above say is this: Diminishing Returns only affects Attribmods, which means basically *effects*. It does not affect the base value of anything. For our purposes, that's buffs, debuffs, and other effects like damage (which is basically a health debuff). In our example, the buff from the defense enhancements would be reduced by diminishing returns, and then the net buff from Focused Fighting would be reduced by diminishing returns afterwards.

Suppose that for Melee_Attack Str A = 0.33 and B = 0.8; for Melee_Attack Cur A = 1.2 and B = 1.0. This is now what would happen:

First, the strength buff from enhancements of +0.56 would be reduced by diminishing returns (not the total Strength of 1.56: just the 0.56 buff). DR(0.56) when A = 0.33 and B = 0.8 is ~ 0.51. So the actual Melee_Attack Str is 1.51, not 1.56, due to enhancements.

That means the Melee_Attack (Cur) buff (prior to diminishing returns) is 0.13875 * 1.51 = 0.2095, or about 20.95%. Then, because that is a Cur buff itself, *that* is reduced by diminishing returns. DR(0.2095) when A = 1.2 and B = 1.0 is 0.1767, or 17.67%.

Therefore, without diminishing returns, 13.875% with +0.56 enhancement is 21.645% defense. With diminishing returns (in this example), its 17.67%.

Now, what are A and B? Unfortunately, its actually theoretically possible for A and B to be completely different for every attribute, for any of the three aspects covered by diminishing returns, and for every archetype. That's 14 different archetypes, about 71 different attributes, and three different aspects each with a pair of parameters: 5964 values. At the moment, that's a bit difficult for me to post. But while they can all be different in theory, they aren't actually in practice in most cases. Here are what appear to be the current rules for those values:

1. The default values for A and B are 0.33 and 0.8, respectively, for all Str and Res aspects unless otherwise noted.
2. The default values for A and B are 1.0 and 0.0, respectively, for all Cur aspects unless otherwise noted (note: B = 0.0 means no diminishing returns)
3. Damage Res is 1.2/1.0 for all damage res types possessed by players (i.e. smashing, lethal, fire, cold, etc).
3a. Special case #1: Tanker Damage Res is 0.8/1.0
3b. Special case #2: Scrapper/Brute/Stalker Damage Res is 0.6/1.0
3c. Special case #3: VEATs and HEATs are 0.9/1.0
3d. Special case #4: Mastermind Res is 1.8/1.0
4. Heal Str is 0.33/0.8. Heal Res is 1.0/0
5. Endurance Cur is 0.01/0.666
6. Tohit Cur is 2.0/1.0. Tohit Str is 0.33/0.8
7. Attack/Defense types Cur are currently 3.0/1.0
8. Movement Cur is 0.15/0.55 for all movement attributes (RunSpeed, FlySpeed, SpeedJumping, JumpHeight)
9. Stealth and perception Cur are 0.33/0.0
10. Recovery Cur is 0.33/0.33
11. Regen Cur is 0.06/1.0
12. All Mez Cur are 0.33/0.8. This includes knockback/knockup
13. Recharge, EnduranceDiscount, and InterruptTime Cur are 0.33/0.8
14. Hitpoints (meaning +health buffs): Cur is 1.0/0.0, and Str is 0.33/0.8

Disclaimer: these values are subject to change. Also, I have a google docs spreadsheet that has all of the values and a calculator function for every archetype and every attribute/aspect. It dates from a while ago but the only values that appear to have changed from that build to now are ones that affect teleport, intangible, untouchable, and onlyaffectsself attributes. I will try to update the sheet when I can. Also note the sheet has a minor bug: its missing an Absolute function in it, so it only works correctly for positive numbers. That's no biggie, because DR is symmetric. Just enter positive numbers instead of negative numbers and you'll get the right result. This will be fixed in an update.

Now, last thing: as mentioned in the rules, its totals that count, not powers or even individual attribmods. So if you have one power granting a 10% defense buff slotted with +0.56 enhancements, and another power granting 5% defense with no enhancements, DR will kick in and reduce the slotting, and then that buff will be reduced to some value lower than 15.6% defense, and then that will be added to the 5% from the other power, *and then* the grand total defense buff (Cur) will be subject to DR.

In other words: DR(5% + 10% * (1 + DR(0.56)))

[u]NOT[u]

DR(5%) + DR(10% * (1 + DR(0.56)))

Suppose I also had Dodge, also slotted similarly. Well, in that case Dodge's enhancements would also be reduced to +0.51, and its buff would then be 5.625% * 1.51 = 8.49%. But then, the *total* Melee_Attack defense buff would be added up: 8.49% + 20.95% = 29.44%. Then *that* would be subjected to DR: DR(0.2944) = 0.2308, or 23.08%.

[u]Again: you do *not* apply DR to Focused Fighting and Dodge and then add. You add, then apply DR.[u]

Diminishing Returns FAQ

Q1: Does DR occur before, after, or simultaneously with ED (Enhancement Diversification)?
A1: As far as I know, ED happens first and is applied to enhancement bonuses, and then DR occurs afterward. For that matter, as far as I know, all effects on enhanements, such as exemplar effects, also happen first, before that Strength is looked at by Diminishing Returns.

Q2: What happens if I have +0.95 damage slotting, and I cast a power like Build Up (+100% damage)? What happens?
A2: DR happens on totals, not individual effects. So for that specific power the total strength bonus for damage is +1.95, and DR would be applied to that number for that power.
(Technically, DR would be applied to each damage attribute strength modifier separately, but at the moment all DR parameters for all damage types are identical, and likely to remain that way. It is *theoretically* possible for Fire damage to have a stronger DR curve than Ice damage, say, but I doubt that the devs are likely to do that).

Q3: What's not affected by Diminishing Returns?
A3: Any buff or effect that is not a Str(ength) buff or debuff, a Cur(rent) buff or debuff, or a Res(istance) buff or debuff would not be affected by Diminishing Returns. For example, Heals that Heal an Abs(olute) value of health are unaffected by Diminishing Returns. However, note that Heal Str(ength) buffs *are* affected. This means if you use slotted Reconstruction, the *slotting* is affected by DR, but the *total points healed* is not. As far as I know, all player heals are Abs heals. Other things that are Abs modifiers are things like Damage (from attacks). As a rule, if it does a very specific (and large) number of points of something, its probably not under DR. If it does percentages, it is (but that can be tricky: people "know" reconstruction as healing "25% base heal" but its actually an Abs that heals a specific number of points that just *happens* to be 25% of the health bar. The fact that recon does not scale upwards with +health is the giveaway its an Abs and not a Cur-like percentage buff, which would always heal a fixed percentage of a *bar* regardless of the size of the bar).

Q4: What do those A/B numbers mean? Is there any way to know "about" what they say?
A4: Not without doing the math. That Diminishing Returns equation actually has more complex behavior than it might seem from its expression. However, there are a couple of rules of thumb.

* If B = 0.0, that Aspect is unaffected by Diminishing Returns (regardless of what A is).
* The larger A is, the faster the DR curve will "level off" and reach a soft cap of some kind.
* The larger B is, the lower the soft cap will be.

If A=1.0 and B=1.0, the DR curve reaches 0.5 when the original value is 1.0, and then levels off around 0.63. Increase A to 2.0, and the DR curve reaches 0.25 when the original value reaches 0.5, and then levels off around 0.31. Notice that doubling A shrunk the curve roughly in half.

Q5: Why so complicated? Why not just one curve for everything, and everyone?
A5: Mainly because it wouldn't work. Different attributes have different ranges of values: we don't see +400% MaxHealth, but we do see +400% damage. Some things have small values and some large values, and some things have small ranges and some things have larger ranges. It would be difficult to make a one-size-fits-all diminishing returns curve that worked on +2000% regeneration buffs in a desirable way and also +25% defense buffs. That basically requires different kinds of attributes to have potentially different kinds of DR attributes in some cases. As to why different archetypes have different DR values, actually they *could* but currently *don't* except for just a few cases, which point to why that possibility exists: part of the intent of the DR system is to help balance PvP, and the devs want the option to tweak DR curves to allow different archetypes to reach different DR "softcaps" (although the term is being used here very loosely: many DR attributes don't "cap" in the same way ED does: it would probably be better to call them "softslopes") in different ways. As an example (which doesn't actually necessarily match the current numbers) you might want to make it easier for Tankers to quickly gain intermediate levels of resistance, but then you might not want them to continue to stack up much higher than that. You might want the tanker curve to be gentler at first, but then sharply level off near the top, relative to other archetypes. The system provides for that possibility (but its a possibility the devs are currently using very sparingly and still experimentally).

[ed: I'm adding a question I've been asked a lot in closed beta]

Q6: Does Diminishing Returns affect buffs and debuffs separately?
A6: No. As far as the game is concerned, buffs and debuffs are the same thing, just different sign. You add up buffs and debuffs together before applying Diminishing Returns. So if you have a +25% defense buff on you, and a -15% defense debuff on you, your net defense buff is +10%, and Diminishing Returns will then reduce that ten percent downward. It *does not* hit the +25% and -15% separately and then add up. Ever.

To reiterate: this is the *current* equation for Diminishing Returns, and the current values for the DR parameters as of the v18.20081015.0 build on test. Every single test build has had some differences in the DR parameters, and I believe they are still being tweaked (there are certain areas where the way it works creates problems, such as in the area of perception, so there's still a lot of work the devs have to do to address all the collateral issues). I'm currently trying to figure out a way to better communicate what the DR parameters are without spamming the forum with gigantic tables (and I'm not sure if the "code" tags are working yet either).

Castle has reviewed this (more or less) so I believe its accurate, but any errors are mine alone.

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James_Bonnell · 11-08-2008 07:37 AM

Impressive work as usual Arcanaville!

One wonders if whoever named them Aspects and Attributes was a fan of Zelazny's Lord of Light.

Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.

Flux_Vector · 11-08-2008 10:08 AM

Thanks for the explanation, Arcanaville.

However, I have to say, if they expect a mechanic like this to make pvp more accessible to casual players, I think someone needs to remind them that next to nobody is going to understand this equation. I don't really, I admit it, even with the explanation and examples it makes precious little sense to me in any way I can relate to. Of all the obtuse and arcane new rules for PvP zones, this one is by far the most cryptic. (Yes, bad pun intended).

It also sets up a situation in combination with passive resists for most ATs where sonic and thermal buffs are nearly useless, and will just generally cheese off everyone who's put in the effort to slot IOs into their builds. I honestly hope it gets reconsidered.

"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

The_Coming_Storm · 11-08-2008 12:18 PM

How do you get all this information all the time? Do you do some illegitimate things and should be banned? You are very suspicious and I have never trusted you. Clear your name, now, woman!

I fail to see why the devs would let you into the closed beta.....

TehHippeh · 11-08-2008 04:17 PM

I am sure I am dense and not seeing it, but in the hopes someone else is equally dense, I am wondering if something could be explained to me?

If the problem is people being overbuffed, why isn't a cap set at the point where one would be considered overbuffed not a mechanic that would satisfy the same goal, but be easier to understand?

Is it because the cap cannot differ between PVP and PVE?

I find caps easier to understand, but I am sure there are several reasons I am missing about why a cap would not serve the same purpose.

Thanks as always for posting this guide.

Darth_Khasei · 11-08-2008 04:28 PM

Hmm...excuse me a sec I think im going to be sick after reading all of that...

The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

Bionic_Flea · 11-08-2008 06:00 PM

Arcanaville, thanks for all that information.

Would it be possible to see what one of these curves actually looks like as an example? It would certainly help me.

50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

Arcanaville · 11-10-2008 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Arcanaville, thanks for all that information.

Would it be possible to see what one of these curves actually looks like as an example? It would certainly help me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm working on something that normal humans might understand, but its a bit tricky because the DR curves change characteristics somewhat depending on what A and B are. In general, the DR curves start heading upward at some close to linear slope, but then at some characteristic point they start to level out. Depending on the A/B parameters, it sometimes continues ascending upward at increasingly slower rates, and with other A/B parameters it more closely resembles hitting a "soft" ceiling. It'll probably need pictures to illustrate more fully. My time to make them is a bit limited, but I should have some this week unless someone else trumps me in that regard (I wrote this mostly for the quants to get started cranking numbers, and they're equally likely to attempt to write explanations for what's going on in there before I get around to it).

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Arcanaville · 11-10-2008 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How do you get all this information all the time? Do you do some illegitimate things and should be banned? You are very suspicious and I have never trusted you. Clear your name, now, woman!

I fail to see why the devs would let you into the closed beta.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. I should be punished. Everyone, I have stolen from my developers. Please, purge me. I'm ashamed of myself. I should be arrested. I should be purged. I should be flogged. I shouldn't walk among good people. I'm a swine, a wretch; I don't deserve to live like others.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

Obsidius · 11-10-2008 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you get all this information all the time? Do you do some illegitimate things and should be banned? You are very suspicious and I have never trusted you. Clear your name, now, woman!

I fail to see why the devs would let you into the closed beta.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. I should be punished. Everyone, I have stolen from my developers. Please, purge me. I'm ashamed of myself. I should be arrested. I should be purged. I should be flogged. I shouldn't walk among good people. I'm a swine, a wretch; I don't deserve to live like others.

[/ QUOTE ]
No no no... I think you confused who the swine was

Clearly, it appears as someone quoted in this thread might be sexist...

Bill Z Bubba · 11-10-2008 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you get all this information all the time? Do you do some illegitimate things and should be banned? You are very suspicious and I have never trusted you. Clear your name, now, woman!

I fail to see why the devs would let you into the closed beta.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. I should be punished. Everyone, I have stolen from my developers. Please, purge me. I'm ashamed of myself. I should be arrested. I should be purged. I should be flogged. I shouldn't walk among good people. I'm a swine, a wretch; I don't deserve to live like others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. You need nuthin but a good spankin.

On a serious note:

[ QUOTE ]
Of all the obtuse and arcane new rules for PvP zones, this one is by far the most cryptic. (Yes, bad pun intended).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to wonder if that was intentional.

Be well, people of CoH.

MagicFlyingHippy · 11-10-2008 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Arcanaville, thanks for all that information.

Would it be possible to see what one of these curves actually looks like as an example? It would certainly help me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm working on something that normal humans might understand, but its a bit tricky because the DR curves change characteristics somewhat depending on what A and B are. In general, the DR curves start heading upward at some close to linear slope, but then at some characteristic point they start to level out. Depending on the A/B parameters, it sometimes continues ascending upward at increasingly slower rates, and with other A/B parameters it more closely resembles hitting a "soft" ceiling. It'll probably need pictures to illustrate more fully. My time to make them is a bit limited, but I should have some this week unless someone else trumps me in that regard (I wrote this mostly for the quants to get started cranking numbers, and they're equally likely to attempt to write explanations for what's going on in there before I get around to it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I had a friend of mine whip this up. It should allow you to input an A and B, and then hit Refresh to graph Arcana's formula given that A and B. Mouseover for the specific numbers.

Jerk 4 Life
In brightest day, in blackest night/No evil shall escape my sight/Let those who worship evil's might/Beware my power ... Green Lantern's light!/(Meowth, that's right!)

My Arcs: #4827: Earth For Humans. #6391: Young Love.

Bionic_Flea · 11-10-2008 03:25 PM

It no work!

Flea angry!

Flea Smash Hippy!

Thanks to you and your friend for trying though.

50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

_Ilr_ · 11-10-2008 04:37 PM

No offense since I'm sure Arcana and Castle put a TON of work into this whole system...
But the Initial Results of some Tests seems to indicate that the game was actually MORE BALANCED and less "binary" before they ever bothered with this mess.

Where you guys might be seeing a "Soft Curve".... I'm clearly seeing an abrupt Hard-Cap that is both prejudiced and discriminatory against many builds and Archetypes in general who never deserved such levels of "Nerftitude". ...atleast not in PvP anyway.

In other words...
It looks like we traded in the mean old boss we used to have for an even meaner older boss

MagicFlyingHippy · 11-10-2008 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It no work!

Flea angry!

Flea Smash Hippy!

Thanks to you and your friend for trying though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to work for me, and line up with Arcana's examples. What part of it isn't working for you? You're putting in the As and Bs from her list and then hitting Refresh, like it says to, right?

Oh, and also you aren't blocking Javascript?

Jerk 4 Life
In brightest day, in blackest night/No evil shall escape my sight/Let those who worship evil's might/Beware my power ... Green Lantern's light!/(Meowth, that's right!)

My Arcs: #4827: Earth For Humans. #6391: Young Love.

Arcanaville · 11-10-2008 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Arcanaville, thanks for all that information.

Would it be possible to see what one of these curves actually looks like as an example? It would certainly help me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm working on something that normal humans might understand, but its a bit tricky because the DR curves change characteristics somewhat depending on what A and B are. In general, the DR curves start heading upward at some close to linear slope, but then at some characteristic point they start to level out. Depending on the A/B parameters, it sometimes continues ascending upward at increasingly slower rates, and with other A/B parameters it more closely resembles hitting a "soft" ceiling. It'll probably need pictures to illustrate more fully. My time to make them is a bit limited, but I should have some this week unless someone else trumps me in that regard (I wrote this mostly for the quants to get started cranking numbers, and they're equally likely to attempt to write explanations for what's going on in there before I get around to it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I had a friend of mine whip this up. It should allow you to input an A and B, and then hit Refresh to graph Arcana's formula given that A and B. Mouseover for the specific numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to add a correction I originally posted in the closed beta post: surround the ATAN() function with ABS: i.e. ABS(ATAN(stuff)). The function is symmetric about the origin.

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(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

Arcanaville · 11-10-2008 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No offense since I'm sure Arcana and Castle put a TON of work into this whole system...
But the Initial Results of some Tests seems to indicate that the game was actually MORE BALANCED and less "binary" before they ever bothered with this mess.

Where you guys might be seeing a "Soft Curve".... I'm clearly seeing an abrupt Hard-Cap that is both prejudiced and discriminatory against many builds and Archetypes in general who never deserved such levels of "Nerftitude". ...atleast not in PvP anyway.

In other words...
It looks like we traded in the mean old boss we used to have for an even meaner older boss

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I had no input into the diminishing returns formula.

2. It would not have been my first choice.

3. Yes, there are some issues with debuffs - although some of those issues are related to the issue of what the original intent of foe debuffs are supposed to be. For example, players typically equate tohit debuffs with defense, and presume that anyone that possesses tohit debuffs "obviously" is intended to have their protection no differently in principle than someone with defense buffs. But that might not be true. It *is* true, however, that the current diminishing returns system has little flexibility to distinguish any difference between buffs and debuffs, even when the intent *is* for them to operate differently.

4. Mitigation powers are generally being given Diminishing Returns factors that are "soft-cappy" in nature, to account for the fact that their value accelerates as they get stronger. However, things like Damage buffs aren't (last I checked) set to values that are soft-cappy, and are gentler in degredation (and actually, with some tweaking, it works perhaps better than ED does in that regard).

5. Given the way the Diminishing Returns system is currently designed, proper PvP balance will have to be a meet in the middle affair, with powersets that are affected more strongly than desired being bumped upward in power strength to their desired (relative) strength. This was always going to be mandatory anyway. However, that doesn't mean that everyone will *agree* with where powersets ultimately end up. That's going to be an inevitable source of unresolvable debate.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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_Ilr_ · 11-10-2008 10:57 PM

Terrific...so they got you too huh? (Ya give these guys any rope and they just hang ya with it now)

Alpha_Zulu · 11-10-2008 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Terrific...so they got you too huh? (Ya give these guys any rope and they just hang ya with it now)

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow man, _Ilr_ has it out for these guys.

So mean

MagicFlyingHippy · 11-10-2008 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Arcanaville, thanks for all that information.

Would it be possible to see what one of these curves actually looks like as an example? It would certainly help me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm working on something that normal humans might understand, but its a bit tricky because the DR curves change characteristics somewhat depending on what A and B are. In general, the DR curves start heading upward at some close to linear slope, but then at some characteristic point they start to level out. Depending on the A/B parameters, it sometimes continues ascending upward at increasingly slower rates, and with other A/B parameters it more closely resembles hitting a "soft" ceiling. It'll probably need pictures to illustrate more fully. My time to make them is a bit limited, but I should have some this week unless someone else trumps me in that regard (I wrote this mostly for the quants to get started cranking numbers, and they're equally likely to attempt to write explanations for what's going on in there before I get around to it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I had a friend of mine whip this up. It should allow you to input an A and B, and then hit Refresh to graph Arcana's formula given that A and B. Mouseover for the specific numbers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to add a correction I originally posted in the closed beta post: surround the ATAN() function with ABS: i.e. ABS(ATAN(stuff)). The function is symmetric about the origin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should be fixed.

Jerk 4 Life
In brightest day, in blackest night/No evil shall escape my sight/Let those who worship evil's might/Beware my power ... Green Lantern's light!/(Meowth, that's right!)

My Arcs: #4827: Earth For Humans. #6391: Young Love.

Fleeting Whisper · 11-11-2008 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It no work!

Flea angry!

Flea Smash Hippy!

Thanks to you and your friend for trying though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to work for me, and line up with Arcana's examples. What part of it isn't working for you? You're putting in the As and Bs from her list and then hitting Refresh, like it says to, right?

Oh, and also you aren't blocking Javascript?

[/ QUOTE ]Looks like your script is relying on Firefox's "preserve all data in form fields" feature - doing a soft refresh leaves the old values in the input fields, and still calls replot() when the page loads.

Place a form tag around your two input fields (with action="javascript:replot()") and it will work correctly without having to refresh the page.
[ QUOTE ]
<form action="javascript:replot()">
A=<input type="text" id="avar" size="3" value="1" />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
B=<input type="text" id="bvar" size="3" value="1" />
<br/><input type="submit" value="Replot" />
</form>

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit: And OMG jquery.js makes my brain explode. That don't look like no JS I ever saw. That be lookin' more like brain[censored] code.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

Diellan_ · 11-11-2008 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: And OMG jquery.js makes my brain explode. That don't look like no JS I ever saw. That be lookin' more like brain[censored] code.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because it's compressed. If you were to replace the eval with a document.write(), you should see more normal js.

Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich

Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?

_Ilr_ · 11-11-2008 12:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow man, _Ilr_ has it out for these guys.

So mean

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, at this point I don't think I could really care enough to feel that strongly anymore.
...I've already accepted that this is a done deal, and the passion's fading fast

And Hell, it looked like a great idea originally. But I forgot the old mantra ever since Issue6: "Introduce everything new as Pre-nerfed as possible". ...So much potential, thrown out the window. ...story of CoH's life, especially with PvP

Bionic_Flea · 11-11-2008 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It no work!

Flea angry!

Flea Smash Hippy!

Thanks to you and your friend for trying though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to work for me, and line up with Arcana's examples. What part of it isn't working for you? You're putting in the As and Bs from her list and then hitting Refresh, like it says to, right?

Oh, and also you aren't blocking Javascript?

[/ QUOTE ]
I get the page, input the values, and get the same blank white space.

I was blocking java, but I unblocked, restarted, tried again, and got the same results -- white space.

I'm runninng IE7 not Firefox, so maybe that's the issue.

50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

IceScykle · 11-11-2008 07:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow man, _Ilr_ has it out for these guys.

So mean

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, at this point I don't think I could really care enough to feel that strongly anymore.
...I've already accepted that this is a done deal, and the passion's fading fast

And Hell, it looked like a great idea originally. But I forgot the old mantra ever since Issue6: "Introduce everything new as Pre-nerfed as possible". ...So much potential, thrown out the window. ...story of CoH's life, especially with PvP

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I was optimistic too...more fool me