M3z is amazing and so can you! Dominator PvP Q & A
By
1nSa1n,
Posted on: 2008-05-19 01:41 in Dominators
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Wouldn't energy be higher on the rank for assault because it can actually knock people back with power push now?
[/ QUOTE ] in duels possibly, but it will only help you more against builds you can already beat. The same builds you lost to you will STILL lose to, I'm fairly certain, unless the KB suppression is really small. In teams all an /ea dom would be useful for was KB and at which case you'd want to use a /FF MM instead.
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tricks like building Dom using an interrupted snipe would be considered poor sportsmanship
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It's certainly as cornball as TP Droning, which is of course also not against any rules, but definitely a cheesy move that one uses only if you can't beat your opponent in a real fight.
[/ QUOTE ] Didn't really want to use this thread for arguing but I'll try to quote Sirlin to help explain
Sirlin:
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The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.
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while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.
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Could you clarify that? I was thinking about changing my ice/psi from medicine to phase but what does the mu patron have to do with it? I had the pet for 1 week (ice/psi) and didn't really notice it healing me or anything reliable. I know phase might be a waste on arena for my build since the timer is fast and I can't BU nor Aim someone who gets at me.
But I don't get the Mu patron part, I actually only have charged armor and will have powersink again but fist I wanna achieve permadom (60% almost there).
[/ QUOTE ]Ok the reason I said "if you have build up or aim"is because you can slot those with the +perc proc which although is a very small amount perception is better than none. Mu helps reinforce survivability with a dom with the energy/smashing/lethal shield (protects against high burst melee like energy melee) and the pet that heals frequently(you need to be near it, and since it's most likely not perma with your build just summon it before you engage). This added survivability means you can get away with taking tactics for more to-hit and perception because you won't have to take phase. The whole reason people take mu for pvp is for the healing pet in duels. You can drop tactics for phase if you really want to be survivable, but the problem is you won't be able to take out any support without a sonic and will have trouble combating storm camps in zones.
sooo I always recommend either MU+leadership for duels zones
and BS+phase for team arena
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What do you feel is going to be the better zone build M3z and the occasional shw arena duel toon? (assuming of course the broken confuse gets changed soon).
[/ QUOTE ]Ice/elec because I'm assuming you're solo'ing and ice helps mitigate incoming damage with you being able to shiver and run. Jack is also probably the best control primary pet in the game right now.
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Id like to take a shot at a duel with you m3z.
[/ QUOTE ]Just let me know when and where, I have my builds on freedom atm but can duel on test.
Yes, I read the link.
I don't really agree with the "win at all costs" philosophy but, be that as it may...
If the PvP in this game was designed Well, bug exploits like that wouldn't be Necessary.
EDIT: I understand Sirlin's points, however I personally think people who would do things like use that slow Iceman maneuver he describes are being jerks and I wouldn't play against them a second time. It's practically the Definition of unsportsmanlike conduct.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
It isn't necessary, if you really believe it's that cheap to build domination that way then simply don't do it.
Of course.
I never said anywhere that I would expect people to follow my rules.
I do think the Devs should make it so that doesn't work, but if they don't then I guess it's not a bug.
But no, I wouldn't do it.
Since I hardly ever PvP it wouldn't be very meaningful to say that I wouldn't PvP someone who did that.
EDIT: On further reflection, if my Dom HAD a Snipe I Might do it, because I do like to win. However I would feel bad about it. And I Certainly wouldn't take a Snipe just to do that, but then I don't build toons for PvP.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Thanks M3z, much appreciated
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Here you go ladies and gentlemen: The Art of Jump-cancels.
Use your newfound power wisely.
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wow, that was pretty cool how easily you replicated it. I've always just stumbled upon it.
great clip. For whatever reason I'm not bothered by this like I am by respawn camping, though I think they are both similar scaled bugs.
This should be entirely possible on an ice/elec dom, with charged bolt (insta damage, short animation) leading into shiver, block of ice or even iceslick when desired.
I'll have to remember this one to reduce the number of drive by ET's to da face 
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Here you go ladies and gentlemen: The Art of Jump-cancels.
Use your newfound power wisely.
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wow, that was pretty cool how easily you replicated it. I've always just stumbled upon it.
great clip. For whatever reason I'm not bothered by this like I am by respawn camping, though I think they are both similar scaled bugs.
This should be entirely possible on an ice/elec dom, with charged bolt (insta damage, short animation) leading into shiver, block of ice or even iceslick when desired.
I'll have to remember this one to reduce the number of drive by ET's to da face
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The fact that you see me putting powers on auto like you would for the respawn bug is because I jump with control and click my powers. Setting a power to auto has nothing to do with jump cancels.
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Yes, I read the link.
I don't really agree with the "win at all costs" philosophy but, be that as it may...
[/ QUOTE ]I think it's fundamentally disrespectful to approach an opponent and not actually try to win. If you're just going to play with me, it's insulting.
That's not what I meant.
I just meant that there are certain things I won't do to try to win. It doesn't mean I'd stop trying.
If I found I Had to use a tactic I didn't like in order to be succesful, I would probably just not play with that character. That goes for PvP OR PvE.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Then congratulations, you're bad at competition. Enjoy feeding the War Axe/Dark Armour zoners.
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Here you go ladies and gentlemen: The Art of Jump-cancels.
Use your newfound power wisely.
[/ QUOTE ]
wow, that was pretty cool how easily you replicated it. I've always just stumbled upon it.
great clip. For whatever reason I'm not bothered by this like I am by respawn camping, though I think they are both similar scaled bugs.
This should be entirely possible on an ice/elec dom, with charged bolt (insta damage, short animation) leading into shiver, block of ice or even iceslick when desired.
I'll have to remember this one to reduce the number of drive by ET's to da face
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The fact that you see me putting powers on auto like you would for the respawn bug is because I jump with control and click my powers. Setting a power to auto has nothing to do with jump cancels.
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what was that song?
Love this "guide" m3z, very well done. Only thing I disagree with is in duels I'd say ice>psi, better ranged damage and resistance isn't really an issue, and powerboost+megalo+domination is just rediculous mag you can stack in your 1 minute of Force of Nature. I came close to beating a well played ice/rad/psi soley because I was stacking so much mag.
Im going to use an ice/elec dom, slow will make the melee more viable. Still gotta figure out this build though.
And unholy that vid is going to have very nice implications for some of my toons, thanks for the demonstrations
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Here you go ladies and gentlemen: The Art of Jump-cancels.
Use your newfound power wisely.
[/ QUOTE ]
wow, that was pretty cool how easily you replicated it. I've always just stumbled upon it.
great clip. For whatever reason I'm not bothered by this like I am by respawn camping, though I think they are both similar scaled bugs.
This should be entirely possible on an ice/elec dom, with charged bolt (insta damage, short animation) leading into shiver, block of ice or even iceslick when desired.
I'll have to remember this one to reduce the number of drive by ET's to da face
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The fact that you see me putting powers on auto like you would for the respawn bug is because I jump with control and click my powers. Setting a power to auto has nothing to do with jump cancels.
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you lost me there, I didn't see you auto any powers in the vid. I just saw some interesting timing tricks, which I plan to practice for my ice/elec dom
Powerboost is being reduced by 33% and the stacking of powerboost type powers is also being nerfed (i.e. megalomaniac and powerboost)
lol, ok Mr. Market Tycoon
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Yes, I read the link.
I don't really agree with the "win at all costs" philosophy but, be that as it may...
If the PvP in this game was designed Well, bug exploits like that wouldn't be Necessary.
EDIT: I understand Sirlin's points, however I personally think people who would do things like use that slow Iceman maneuver he describes are being jerks and I wouldn't play against them a second time. It's practically the Definition of unsportsmanlike conduct.
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Ya know what? I do not call people out here often. You need to [censored] ,Wavicle. You haven't a leg to stan d on and are doing nothing but derailing the thread, Toodle on and have fun with " sportsmanship" and " rules". I don't think anyone in the thread really cares what you think. It's obvious to me after reading your posts that you really don't pvp. Theres 3 types of pvp on any character you make... whether a dom or something different:
1. arena : duels
2. arena teams
3. zones// zone:duels( which are silly... pls read "playing to win"
Thanks much M3z for taking the time to help dom;s and really any other AT with this thread. I applaud you.
This should be in guides btw.
And I have no idea why Wavicle is posting his point of view all the time with something that has nothing to do with this guide, one post would be enough for that. Guess what on big teams where you get more 'domination' on the bar than solo, I can just jump, press the key for snipe 5 or so times and boom, dom in 3 seconds.
Nice post m3z. If I ever find the time to PvP I'll use it.
Few questions and corrections though:
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Jack and immobs [censored] though.
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Is that a good [censored] or a bad [censored]?
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Earth's . . . slotting the -def powers with achilles
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Only Earthquake takes Def debuff enhancements 
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on what are the detogglers are in elec
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Currently /Electricity has only the 5% detoggler, and I'm wondering if they intend to leave it like that.
Other things you didn't mention about /Electricity are the slight endurance drain, and more importantly, the melee attacks have a chance to sleep, which sounds more like a suppression nightmare than a PvP benefit.
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Is that a good [censored] or a bad [censored]?
[/ QUOTE ] good [censored], when jackie whips out his greater dil sword of judgement and swings it with much verocity few can stand toe to toe with him. I could probably beat ppl with just jack alone.
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Only Earthquake takes Def debuff enhancements .
[/ QUOTE ] that's what I read
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the melee attacks have a chance to sleep, which sounds more like a suppression nightmare than a PvP benefit.
[/ QUOTE ] if your sleeping someone with your melee, meaning they don't have breakfrees chances are it won't matter if they're in suppression they're probably going to die anyways
Yes, I understand that you feel that casual PvPers opinions of PvP don't count.
I said in my first post, and I'll repeat I think it's a great guide that helps both people who are already experienced and people who are not (like me).
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Here you go ladies and gentlemen: The Art of Jump-cancels.
Use your newfound power wisely.
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wow, that was pretty cool how easily you replicated it. I've always just stumbled upon it.
great clip. For whatever reason I'm not bothered by this like I am by respawn camping, though I think they are both similar scaled bugs.
This should be entirely possible on an ice/elec dom, with charged bolt (insta damage, short animation) leading into shiver, block of ice or even iceslick when desired.
I'll have to remember this one to reduce the number of drive by ET's to da face
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The fact that you see me putting powers on auto like you would for the respawn bug is because I jump with control and click my powers. Setting a power to auto has nothing to do with jump cancels.
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what was that song?
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Qwel - Chicago Barbecue. Forgot to include that in the comments.
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Then congratulations, you're bad at competition. Enjoy feeding the War Axe/Dark Armour zoners.
[/ QUOTE ] It's a fundamentally different approach to competition--it doesn't make him "bad at competition" for taking a different approach. That's a pretty myopic view of the situation.
Some like to play the game the way it is implemented, regardless of how it was intended.
Some like to play the game the way it was intended, regardless of how it is implemented.
The former will always have a huge advantage over the latter in informal settings, such as all CoX PvP, due to having less restrictive rules. That is why in actual gaming tournaments, which we do not really have here, rules are spelled out rather than left to interpretation (that is, by the way, something Sirlin himself states--not something I'm inventing).
Both the one who plays the game as intended and the one who plays the game as implemented are "playing to win", the difference is that they're playing two different games that happen to coincide.
Neither is cheating at their own game, nor bad at their own game, and most of these pointless and (frankly) offensive debates come from a basic lack of understanding of others' motivations. To either group, I reiterate--your opponent isn't bad at the game, he's playing a different game that happens to cross over with yours.
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Then congratulations, you're bad at competition. Enjoy feeding the War Axe/Dark Armour zoners.
[/ QUOTE ] It's a fundamentally different approach to competition--it doesn't make him "bad at competition" for taking a different approach. That's a pretty myopic view of the situation.
Some like to play the game the way it is implemented, regardless of how it was intended.
Some like to play the game the way it was intended, regardless of how it is implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]This is the fanciful argument of the perpetual loser. You can set up sub-games and internal hampers if you want, but in the end, all it means is that you're intentionally coming to the table without the goal of giving your best and competing at your best against your opponent. It's a common trick people use to convince themselves they're better than they think: Yes, I lost, but I didn't use inspirations. It's self-important and it's the bane of actual competitive players.
It's one thing to admit to being bad - I myself do not PVP because I don't have the skillset to be as good at it as I'd like to be. I can't handle the swings, can't handle the frustration. I hate the game imbalance. But I don't act like other people are worse for PVPing with imbalanced archetypes.
It all boils down to making excuses for your own failure, and claiming what the designers 'intended' is a laughable attempt at mind-reading to justify ones own indifference to the actual nature of competition.
If I respect my opponent, I come at them with my all. I will not cheat, but neither will I hamstring myself. Anything else is disrespectful.
Yes, I just used the term 'respect' in a PVP conversation.
You are not drawing an important distinction, Talen_Lee. I'm not referring to the "you cheated, you used inspirations" crowd. I'm referring to the "I won't TP someone into a hole in the map geometry in order to win" crowd**. If I did not make that clear, I apologize--but it's important to note that there is a distinction here, one which even the article at hand noted in passing.
The style of PvP that Sirlin's article proposes is one would TP an opponent into a hole in the geometry, and not care a whit about the fact that it's clearly not supposed to exist. In that approach, if the game allows it, it's valid--even when it was clearly not intended to be used that way. Intention is irrelevant to the style of play he champions--only the limitations of the game and the restrictions of the tournament matter.
Some don't play that way, and prefer to avoid those things which are clearly not intended gameplay, because they are playing the game as intended. They will lose to those who play the game as implemented, because they are playing with additional restrictions. This does not make them "bad at the game", it just means they are playing a more restricted (and, incidentally, less likely to get you banned!) game.
I would also note, as a point of interest, that the author has directly stated on at least one instance that he was referring to a specific category of games which does not include MMO's when he wrote the linked article. He was specifically referring to games designed from the ground up as PvP games, and had a strong emphasis on tournament/professional play.
Incidentally, I do play to win in the sense of the cited article, in this and in other games. I just understand those who play differently from me, and do not go out of my way to insult them for it. They play their game, I'll play mine.
**I am not aware of a geometry exploit that still works, but it's an example directly from this game's history and relevant to the point at hand.
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Jump cancelling This is a bit more of a universal thing. Jump cancelling(it's just what I call it) is when you completely cancel the animation and rooting of the attack. You still cannot attack during the duration of the animation but you may move and position yourself for the next attack. Very very useful for long lag attacks like total focus. I still don't fully understand how to do it, I've tried to test it before. I've noticed it happens a lot more when you kite, if you're moving fast away from someone while doing the attack. This especially happens when you have IR on you. If anyone knows anymore about it I would sure like to know.
Example can be seen at 2:30 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gv1JB_xvZM
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I can make a video with an example of an intentional jump cancel. I do it all the time when using Poisonous Ray after Dominate. The cancelling comes when you use a power with a quick hit check and small delay in animation (i.e. Dominate or Power Bolt). If you're landing while the animation is finishing off, you can click a new power that will start to activate before the animation can register. You have to jump or turn to do it though. That's why in the video you see it after a quick turn. I never strafe so I get a lot of them.
2:18 of this video is another good example.
[/ QUOTE ]can you clarify this, do you mean if you use a short animation like dominate or powerbolt where the damage hits the target immediately you'll be able to skip the next animation if you're close to the ground?
Also I'll work on the post you've all been waiting for, pvping with doms in 8v8 villain v. villain teams :O(When I get home)
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Here you go ladies and gentlemen: The Art of Jump-cancels.
Use your newfound power wisely.