I know, but I don't like what granite does to my speed and recharge. That's why I specifically mentioned out of granite.
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I am confused.
/ea has more combined defense and resistance to energy damage than most tankers, and all other brutes except electric armor and stone in granite.
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Frost, I'm fairly certain I know what you mean, but, at least for now, pre-heal, it doesn't have that much PROTECTION
I think we may need to come up for a word that means "direct mitigation that doesn't include healing or regeneration"
Then we can say something like the "insert phrase here" of energy aura is quite superior, and be telling the truth in a way that isn't going to get misinterpreted.
Now, after the buff, assuming it goes through as currently stated, EA will have fairly solid protection against energy in far more meanings of the word, and far more environments in the game.
EDIT: edited for clarity and truthiness
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
So, basically it's okay to give EA less mitigation to its own Element than other sets because of pool defenses?
No thanks.
I'll say it again, every other elemental set gets capped against its type without help. If Castle thinks that defense is special enough to warrant not doing that, I'll wait for him to say it.
If it is, the we should have the ability to cap our def debuff resistance like SR.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
So, basically it's okay to give EA less mitigation to its own Element than other sets because of pool defenses?
No thanks.
I'll say it again, every other elemental set gets capped against its type without help. If Castle thinks that defense is special enough to warrant not doing that, I'll wait for him to say it.
If it is, the we should have the ability to cap our def debuff resistance like SR.
[/ QUOTE ]
... Ya know, I never looked at SR capping defense resistance on its own in that light.
It fits very well.
Be well, people of CoH.
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You run an EA and an Elec into a mob of Mus and tell me who survives longer, even without Weave and CJ.
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I have, it was the /EA. But not for the reasons you are thinking.
It was the mez. The mu luts were easily able to stack holds and stuns to massive toggle-drop proportions in a matter of seconds, causing toggle drop on the /ela while most of it missed the /ea (although she was struggling a little more for end, but not that much)
then again, it's the same reason that 15 tsoo green ink men can make an /ela cry despite their incredible energy protection while an /ea sorta shrugs and keeps on killing. It's an inherent weakness of resistance-based sets to make up for their far more stable performance. Honestly I think that's one of the best reasons to choose a stone-out-of-granite brute... a damage shield plus an almost total lack of weakness to stacked mez from herds.
[/ QUOTE ]
So my argument of Defence making ALL (including mez's) energy typed attack miss more compared to Being hit almost all the time with a Resistance set is not the reason EA would win out? 
FAIL
What you said is the end point I was making, reguardless if it was due to mez, -end or damage EA will still be standing long after Elec in a spawn of Mu's or Green Ink's. Add in Pool power's (Aid Self) and elec can stand there all day, or atleast until Lightning Field kills the spawn. 
[ QUOTE ]
So, basically it's okay to give EA less mitigation to its own Element than other sets because of pool defenses?
No thanks.
I'll say it again, every other elemental set gets capped against its type without help. If Castle thinks that defense is special enough to warrant not doing that, I'll wait for him to say it.
If it is, the we should have the ability to cap our def debuff resistance like SR.
[/ QUOTE ]
Invuln doesnt hit the cap of S/L Resists either it sits on 49.7% Resist and 7.4% (without Invinc, 30.8% with 10 targets) Defence.
DA hits a grand total of 46.8% resist and 5.9% Defence for negative, heck Psi resist is better on it at 58.5% with the same defence, not to mention the utility of cloak of fear with its Mag 3 9.6s Fear and -7.8% Tohit debuff Slotted out with SOs.
WP sits pretty on 32.2% Psi resist with 11.7% Psi Defence so thats nowhere near the cap, even S/L gets a better deal with 35.1% Res thos falls down with 3.9% Def. but RttC makes WP awesome with making your regen 23.2 HP/s jump to 78.5 HP/s with 10 targets, not to mention the added -5.85% Tohit Debuff.
FA Caps out same as Elec but they are both Resistance only sets so they need it.
SR being majority Def Hiting 30.4% Def from all vectors. With Scaled Resists that only kick in when you are almost dead is much like EA but on a different thematic means.
so your statement every other set caps out at their Element is false, one does in the brute sets and thats a Resistance only set like Elec.
FAIL
EDIT: I did not include Stone (which also does not Cap out without Grainite) and all my numbers are without T9's and slotted with SOs.
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You run an EA and an Elec into a mob of Mus and tell me who survives longer, even without Weave and CJ.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have, it was the /EA. But not for the reasons you are thinking.
It was the mez. The mu luts were easily able to stack holds and stuns to massive toggle-drop proportions in a matter of seconds, causing toggle drop on the /ela while most of it missed the /ea (although she was struggling a little more for end, but not that much)
then again, it's the same reason that 15 tsoo green ink men can make an /ela cry despite their incredible energy protection while an /ea sorta shrugs and keeps on killing. It's an inherent weakness of resistance-based sets to make up for their far more stable performance. Honestly I think that's one of the best reasons to choose a stone-out-of-granite brute... a damage shield plus an almost total lack of weakness to stacked mez from herds.
[/ QUOTE ]
So my argument of Defence making ALL (including mez's) energy typed attack miss more compared to Being hit almost all the time with a Resistance set is not the reason EA would win out?
FAIL
What you said is the end point I was making, reguardless if it was due to mez, -end or damage EA will still be standing long after Elec in a spawn of Mu's or Green Ink's. Add in Pool power's (Aid Self) and elec can stand there all day, or atleast until Lightning Field kills the spawn.
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I think you should rephrase that post. I mean, the words were mostly in english, but the sentence structure was so confusing I have almost NO idea what you just said.
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You run an EA and an Elec into a mob of Mus and tell me who survives longer, even without Weave and CJ.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have, it was the /EA. But not for the reasons you are thinking.
It was the mez. The mu luts were easily able to stack holds and stuns to massive toggle-drop proportions in a matter of seconds, causing toggle drop on the /ela while most of it missed the /ea (although she was struggling a little more for end, but not that much)
then again, it's the same reason that 15 tsoo green ink men can make an /ela cry despite their incredible energy protection while an /ea sorta shrugs and keeps on killing. It's an inherent weakness of resistance-based sets to make up for their far more stable performance. Honestly I think that's one of the best reasons to choose a stone-out-of-granite brute... a damage shield plus an almost total lack of weakness to stacked mez from herds.
[/ QUOTE ]
So my argument of Defence making ALL (including mez's) energy typed attack miss more compared to Being hit almost all the time with a Resistance set is not the reason EA would win out?
FAIL
What you said is the end point I was making, reguardless if it was due to mez, -end or damage EA will still be standing long after Elec in a spawn of Mu's or Green Ink's. Add in Pool power's (Aid Self) and elec can stand there all day, or atleast until Lightning Field kills the spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you should rephrase that post. I mean, the words were mostly in english, but the sentence structure was so confusing I have almost NO idea what you just said.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? ok just so you can understand.
My 1st post: Insinuation that; EA Wins because of Defence. Elec Loses Because its only Resists.
Your Post: Yes, but not for the reasons you think; EA Wins Because of Defence. Elec Loses Because its only Resists.
My Second Post: WTH? i just said that 
Doesnt matter if it was a Mez, a -End or Damage that did it, EA still won because of Defence. and Elec is only Resists.
Your Second Post: I cant read your post, you make no sense.
This Post: Well Duh
That clear enough for ya? 
You said I was not 100% correct then said the same basic thing I said.
Here's the Rephrase;
**************************************
So, in my post I mentioned that Energy Aura (EA) would be better off than the Electrical Armour (Elec). This would have to be a direct result of EA's defence to not be hit at all by a good portion of the attacks. Where as Elec, having no defence at all, would be hit almost all the time and no doubt be defeatedl much faster.
Considering that I mentioned these fact's in my previous post I can only ask myself, and you, why you would state that my post was inaccurate as to the reason's why EA would out last Elec in a Spawn of Mu's? Especially Considering you make the same point in your 'Accurate' explaination.
**************************************
That is 100% English and 100% understandable. If you miss the point now you should probably seek English lessons.
^ I can't read
huh?
>.>
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
on a more serious note, I think personaly that, deciding if the coming changes to EA are good or bad can't really be determined untill we get a chance to try them.
I think having the chance to have a heal that can be anywhere between 60 and 600 HP every 30ish seconds is a pretty good deal
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
[ QUOTE ]
Invuln doesnt hit the cap of S/L Resists either it sits on 49.7% Resist and 7.4% (without Invinc, 30.8% with 10 targets) Defence.
DA hits a grand total of 46.8% resist and 5.9% Defence for negative, heck Psi resist is better on it at 58.5% with the same defence, not to mention the utility of cloak of fear with its Mag 3 9.6s Fear and -7.8% Tohit debuff Slotted out with SOs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Weird that Invuln in getting a buff to its S/L resists too, right? There's also the fact that Invuln has a massive self heal HP buff and defense to help with the fact that it doesn't cap. And of course the fact that S/L is the predominant damage type that we encounter in the game. Arguably, Invuln's protection to it is worth more than similar or greater protection to the less frequently encounter types.
As for the actual Elemental sets, Fire, Ice and Elec all cap out of the box. I already talked about DA in my other post on this topic. I gave the same reasons as you and more why it doesn't get capped to Negative. There is that tiny issue of DA having the best health recovery power in the game that has to be taken into consideration as well as 2 control auras.
WP and SR have no place in this discussion. I'm over here complaining my apple isn't red enough, so you point at some oranges and say, "so what?" It's a non response. I specifically have said Elemental sets a few times now, I'm sorry if you didn't understand what that meant. You can also keep your fail comment in your back pocket, or maybe somewhere a little more snug than that.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
I didn't understand the two fail comments either. I thought it must be a guy thing, but I guess I was wrong, It was a [censored] thing.
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Invuln doesnt hit the cap of S/L Resists either it sits on 49.7% Resist and 7.4% (without Invinc, 30.8% with 10 targets) Defence.
DA hits a grand total of 46.8% resist and 5.9% Defence for negative, heck Psi resist is better on it at 58.5% with the same defence, not to mention the utility of cloak of fear with its Mag 3 9.6s Fear and -7.8% Tohit debuff Slotted out with SOs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Weird that Invuln in getting a buff to its S/L resists too, right? There's also the fact that Invuln has a massive self heal HP buff and defense to help with the fact that it doesn't cap. And of course the fact that S/L is the predominant damage type that we encounter in the game. Arguably, Invuln's protection to it is worth more than similar or greater protection to the less frequently encounter types.
As for the actual Elemental sets, Fire, Ice and Elec all cap out of the box. I already talked about DA in my other post on this topic. I gave the same reasons as you and more why it doesn't get capped to Negative. There is that tiny issue of DA having the best health recovery power in the game that has to be taken into consideration as well as 2 control auras.
WP and SR have no place in this discussion. I'm over here complaining my apple isn't red enough, so you point at some oranges and say, "so what?" It's a non response. I specifically have said Elemental sets a few times now, I'm sorry if you didn't understand what that meant. You can also keep your fail comment in your back pocket, or maybe somewhere a little more snug than that.
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+2.5% Base resist bonus to the auto....not a huge buff. so that would make it....no where near the Cap still. DP is a great power for sure but Power Sink, Energy Drain and Conserve Power are also frigging awesome.
Ice isnt a Brute set, nor is it a Stalker Set so what is its relevance to Elec/FA capping their Element and EA getting a decent deal on its Defence and resistance? none. EA is in the catagory of 'other' with all the other sets that dont Cap their 'element' for one reason or another. WP and SR have more of a place in this discussion than Ice because they ARE Brute and Stalker Sets, no oranges or apples just a big line of lemons. enjoy. 
For the sake of argument Ice has 2 resistances, 3 if you count Hoarfrosts Toxic resistance of 31.2% every 184.7s IF you dont slot for heal, F 32% C 90% and 6 Defences S/L E/N all at 30% with SOs and F/C at 3.5%.
See how the resistance numbers are opposite to the Defence numbers? thats the balance, when ice gets hit by any of those attacks it takes full damage. In the very likely event that it gets hit by a Cold attack it will resist most of it just like other elemental sets. it even has its weakness for fire there as only resisting 32% of the damage and almost always getting hit by it.
compare Ices Cold 3.5% Defence 90% Resistance to EAs Energy 32.2% Defence 14.8% Resistance. Which is the same argument as comparing Elecs energy or FAs Fire resistance to EAs Defence and Resistance.
Ice, FA and Elec 'Take it on the Chin' and have to deal with all the ugly problems and secondary effects of being hit. EA has a significant chance to avoid it completely and if it doesnt then at least the decent resistance will reduce the sting a little.
I apologise for my Obnoxious 'Fail's, not going to bother attempting to excuse them as nothing i could say would.
The inherent property of Defense to avoid mez effects doesn't affect this argument. Do you really want to turn this into a "resists vs. defense" argument? You can't respond 'but, defense" any more than I can respond to you "but.. resistance". Yes, defense avoids effects. Resistance is more consistent than Defense and it's why plenty of people have have always liked Res sets better than Def sets. Despite the fact that Def avoids effects, Def sets have been given nothing but help for... ever since the game started because it was never enough to balance things out. that's why Ice has all its fun toys. that's why Sr has those scaling resists. Think about that. Even with the ability to avoid mezzes and other effects, the devs still considered SR so lacking that they made up an entirely new form of mitigation for it.
"Def avoid things" isn't a valid response here. The fact is that EA takes much more damage from its supposed strength than any other Elemental set. That needs to be fixed. Even with slotting, EA's Def and Res mitigate 70% of incoming Energy Damage. Fire? 90%. Ice? 92% and that's with only a single target for def from Energy Absorption. And Ice still has its slows, more def, its heal and its -dmg to help with that. All that stuff is not worth "mez effects land a lot less".
edit: if I'm sounding rabid or angry, I'm not. sorry if anything comes across that way.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
In my opinion, the request to increase energy defense is just for thematic reasons. Practically, we don't need it self-capped, and we can cap it easily if we want to. So, the discussion of self-capping energy defense beyond thematic reason is really not necessary, as the request is solely for thematic reason. If capping energy defense is overpowering, I believe EA's energy defense needs to be nerfed, because we're already capping it too easily.
There are in fact quite a lot of suggestions that match the theme of energy aura, but currently not included in the set, increasing energy defense and resistance is just one of them. Please see Section B in the first post for details. Personally, I would like to see more of those suggestions incorporated into EA. Most of them just add some flavor to the set.
That's part of my point though. Being incredibly strong against your damage type is a theme of all the other elemental sets, so why shouldn't EA get that too?
The reverse point of dismissing it as simply "thematic" is the point I brought up earlier. If it's not a big deal and only part of a "theme", it wouldn't matter if we chopped about a third of the mitigation out of the other sets. They'd still be strong, just not the overwhelming strength they already have to their Type.
I don't think they other sets would like that, but it would simply be a thematic change, right?
(sorry for basically beating a dead horse. I'll shut up now and save the comments for whenever I get to see i13 test.)
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
energy isn't strictly an elemental set.
I understand that they call it 'energy' but energy isn't really an element in this game... it covers too many bases. From kinetic to magnetic to radiation to electricity.
Electricity is very easy to quantify. It IS an element in this game. electric is the energy that does not have a defense defense debuff or smashing component, and drains endurance.
If energy aura were 'radiation aura' then, thematically capped defenses against energy and scads of defense debuff resistance would logically make sense to the set, but stuff like endurance drains and kinetic shields wouldn't.
Energy aura is, realistically, no more 'themed' than invulnerability. It is described by it's appearance more than by it's effects, and it might have more appropriately been named 'personal force fields' if that name hadn't already been taken by something else.
I consider 'willpower' one of the most strongly-themed sets in the game, and I think it gets away with a lot more power than other sets do specifically because of that strong theming.
Actually the only thing I want to see added is a taunt aura. When SR was brought in last issue a taunt aura component was added to it, making EA the only Brute secondary without one.
I have two /EA brutes, one at 50 and one at 41. Though I feel the Cloak is not suitable to my playstyle as "tanking" or " first man in" I still take it just to slot it up for defense. Losing it without taking a further defense hit would not bother me too much, and replacing it with an "Invincibilty" style taunt aura that gave small resistance buffs instead of stacking defense as invul has would, in my opinion, solve most of my own problems.
"When Everyone starts agreeing with me I start worrying I am wrong."
"I'm so sorry, I just can't tank stupid."
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That's part of my point though. Being incredibly strong against your damage type is a theme of all the other elemental sets, so why shouldn't EA get that too?
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I don't think this would be nearly as important if EA was superb somewhere else.
But what is /EA really best at? Even with the proposed buff?
Is it going to be best against energy damage? No. Electrical will still have that title.
Is it going to be best at aggro control? No. DA still does better with it's stealth+perception and it's better aggro control with it's aura (it can have it's stealth and it's aggro too! plus it's just as tough as a slightly overaged 18% nickel maraging steel)
Is it best at endurance management? again no. Electrical gets all the tools, and it gets drain resist to boot
How about... anything?
Some might argue that WP is a generalist as well. WP is so very GOOD at everyting that not being the best at anything is a very excusable shortfall.
The proposed buff for /EA IS generalist, it's heal will help with all situations, but is it really good enough to forgoe any kind of specialty?
Well we'll need to play to be sure, but at this point I'm unconvinced.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Actually the only thing I want to see added is a taunt aura. When SR was brought in last issue a taunt aura component was added to it, making EA the only Brute secondary without one.
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This is fairly important, and it's probably much easier on the comceptual side for /EA than SR.
You could quite easily throw taunt in drain, failing that, how about kinetic shield, with a -speed debuff to foe? (NOT recharge, just movement speed)
This has of course been suggested before. Doesn't imply it shouldn't be suggested again though...
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Hmmm...
a -dam debuff in energy drain....
With the added Buff it will still do well against Energy, more so even. now when EA sits pretty in a mob of mus it can heal any damage that gets past its defence and resistance. Sure i think EA could get a buff to those numbers but EA migitates other damage types better than Elec provided it hasnt been cut to shreads by Def Debuffs.
Defence Vs Resistance argument? nah, its just a basic comparison. Ice has both defence and resistance but not spread out like EA. FA and Elec are pure resistance so thats my justification on why they have high numbers out of the box. Invulnerability is definatly a power house but requires you to be in the thick of the action to get major benifit & it still has weak points in Psi, is easily confused and has no end managment outside of pool powers and IOs.
The way EA is headed its got the best of almost everything; Awesome Mez protection, decent Defence, ok resistance, Stealth without the movment penalty, one of the best and most forgiving T9's in the game, 2 end managment powers and one end managment power now includes a self heal & has always been able to drain mobs dry of end.
Compared to Elec with high resists, great mez protection, 2 end managment powers, one that taunts & prevents recovery while draining mobs dryand a damage aura. but its mez protection is situational in that you have to be on the ground, its T9 is about as forgiving as unstoppable, the inate eweakness of resistance only of being hit almost all the time and outside of pool powers you have nothing but regen to heal yourself.
I like both sets, dont get me wrong. i just think EAs getting the better deal without Pool Powers considered. other than that once i got Aid Self on my /Elec i could solo 4 person team spawns (havnt tryed higher spawns yet), provided they aint loaded with negative and toxic damage lol. 40% Resists + Aidself FTW
I was listening to this interview on a woot radio podcast with Castle.
Aparetnly the changes to EA that they have annouced are the "soft" changes and they have more changes that they can make depending on how things go in the i13 closed and open beta.
you can be sure that, assuming I get an invite to the closed, I will be transfering a current copy of my EM/EA to the test server and runnining him through level 50 missions and some missions at lower levels through Oro, and even see how he fairs in Bill Z's RWZ Challange
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
[ QUOTE ]
then again, it's the same reason that 15 tsoo green ink men can make an /ela cry despite their incredible energy protection while an /ea sorta shrugs and keeps on killing. It's an inherent weakness of resistance-based sets to make up for their far more stable performance. Honestly I think that's one of the best reasons to choose a stone-out-of-granite brute... a damage shield plus an almost total lack of weakness to stacked mez from herds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure if you know this or not, but Granite doesn't just give resistance, it also gives more defense (except to psi, which is none) than its regular toggles.