I actually don't really like the idea for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is that it's unlikely. Castle has described power boost type powers as one of the banes of his job... I doubt he'd add more of them.
I also don't like the way it'll interact so differently with the different primaries. EM and stone get a lot. Fire gets nothing (Fire/EA is NOT the combo we need to be shafting with a change to /EA)
Finally I'm not sure how those SS types would like the knock component... though there's no need for that to be constant.
Not saying it couldn't be workable, just that it'd be one of the harder fixes to get right.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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I actually don't really like the idea for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is that it's unlikely. Castle has described power boost type powers as one of the banes of his job... I doubt he'd add more of them.
I also don't like the way it'll interact so differently with the different primaries. EM and stone get a lot. Fire gets nothing (Fire/EA is NOT the combo we need to be shafting with a change to /EA)
Finally I'm not sure how those SS types would like the knock component... though there's no need for that to be constant.
Not saying it couldn't be workable, just that it'd be one of the harder fixes to get right.
[/ QUOTE ]
Power Boost no longer affects Knockback.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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hmmn, not so bad there then, but I stand by my other objections.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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I actually don't really like the idea for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is that it's unlikely. Castle has described power boost type powers as one of the banes of his job... I doubt he'd add more of them.
I also don't like the way it'll interact so differently with the different primaries. EM and stone get a lot. Fire gets nothing (Fire/EA is NOT the combo we need to be shafting with a change to /EA)
Finally I'm not sure how those SS types would like the knock component... though there's no need for that to be constant.
Not saying it couldn't be workable, just that it'd be one of the harder fixes to get right.
[/ QUOTE ]
Power Boost no longer affects Knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since when?
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
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What part of powerset balancing did yall miss?
Do you really think Castle is ONLY going to be tweaking PvP effects and leave it at that?
I am now under the impression that we're in for a whole metric [censored] ton of power changes.
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I'll betcha 10 mil infamy /ea doesn't get upgraded.
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What odds? And which server? I could use some extra Infamy!
Oh, and PB1? I think you'll be pleased in at least a couple of thie items from your list.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a confirmation of some good news for /EA lovers.
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
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I actually don't really like the idea for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is that it's unlikely. Castle has described power boost type powers as one of the banes of his job... I doubt he'd add more of them.
I also don't like the way it'll interact so differently with the different primaries. EM and stone get a lot. Fire gets nothing (Fire/EA is NOT the combo we need to be shafting with a change to /EA)
Finally I'm not sure how those SS types would like the knock component... though there's no need for that to be constant.
Not saying it couldn't be workable, just that it'd be one of the harder fixes to get right.
[/ QUOTE ]
Power Boost no longer affects Knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since when?
[/ QUOTE ]
since the Acrobatics changes in I12. or was it I11.5? i can't remember.
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I actually don't really like the idea for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is that it's unlikely. Castle has described power boost type powers as one of the banes of his job... I doubt he'd add more of them.
I also don't like the way it'll interact so differently with the different primaries. EM and stone get a lot. Fire gets nothing (Fire/EA is NOT the combo we need to be shafting with a change to /EA)
Finally I'm not sure how those SS types would like the knock component... though there's no need for that to be constant.
Not saying it couldn't be workable, just that it'd be one of the harder fixes to get right.
[/ QUOTE ]
Power Boost no longer affects Knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since when?
[/ QUOTE ]
since the Acrobatics changes in I12. or was it I11.5? i can't remember.
[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of whining about that. Most were mourning the loss of Hellion Golf.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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bah. Blueside :P
I was thinking controller, for some weird reason.
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Fair enough. I mean the only reason I know this is Mids. Not like I'd ever roll another hero to 50. 
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Heroes are lame, they all want tanks and heal0rz for their teams.
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And travel powers for their mighty, mighty, zone size and no phone numbers for the contacts.
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Yeah the primary allure of villainside is that it's just a better game. You don't have to do several kill 10 missions in several different zones before you can get a map mish....in a different zone. Over here in Iraq I have been introduced to the world of major lag and being a slow loader. I am not going to play blueside until I get back to my cable modem in the States.
When they get back to doing another content issue, they need to go through and do a sweeping revision of the bluside mission arcs and make them more conducive to play in addition to adding a zone or some new missions.
But isn't this thread about EA? So when is beta for the new issue 13 going to start? When will we be able to get some info for the newfound love for EA and other sets?
When i said toggle god mode power as oveload.. I was refering to a "granite armor" type tier 9. Can't use any toggles but energy cloak, and Entropy Shield while it's active. Not only would this actually fix some of EA issues (imho) it would also help make granite not the be all end all defense set that people seem to make it out to be.
I stand by what i said earlier about making it into a purely resistance set with a defense power (maybe 2) thrown in, and given the toggle tier 9 (even if it meant they had to reduce some of the effectiveness to balance it)
Stone armor has significant strength before granite. Even without that toggle it's a solid set (though for obvious reasons it is seldom built that way)
EA can make no such claim. It would become a very weak set that transforms radically in the late 30s.
Is there any reason you couldn't rebalance overload to make such a design work? No reason you couldnt (Overload would not look the same as it does now), but I don't think you should... I don't see that change alone resolving the sets problems that efficiently.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
You know, I did a huge comparison with tons of math showing how stone wo granite and ea wo overload start off about even in general mitigation, with /ea pulling ahead no matter what power pool you added to it, but then I decided that about half the people in this thread can't count past ten with their shoes on and no one really cares anyway, so suffice to say that yes, /ea would be about the same as stone armor if overload was 'full time' like granite.
And you...
Accounted for the regeneration in rooted in this somehow?
Accounted for earth's embrace?
Accounted for psi damage?
I'm sorry, I'm not in agreement that /EA would outperform /stone without tier 9s.
In fact I don't think it's even close.
I'll grant you that stone, with rooted debuffs speed, and thus SHOULD have more survival. The relative value of that debuff is certainly open to debate.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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And you...
Accounted for the regeneration in rooted in this somehow?
Accounted for earth's embrace?
Accounted for psi damage?
I'm sorry, I'm not in agreement that /EA would outperform /stone without tier 9s.
In fact I don't think it's even close.
I'll grant you that stone, with rooted debuffs speed, and thus SHOULD have more survival. The relative value of that debuff is certainly open to debate.
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of course not, shes not interested in debate or alternating points of view past her irrational mantra that EA is fine, strong and needs no work whatsoever and that all other sets and ATs are OP. She doesnt get that with the big [censored] heal and +HP power your resistences to all are essentially raised and that rooted and health slotted up can give back what integration and fast healing can give regen scrappers. Stone armour is a high performance typed defence set, people dont cry about it before they get to granite for the reason that it has varied and effective mitigation past defence, heals, +HPs, regen, resistences, EA doesnt (yet)
Shame for her Castle doesnt agree, everyone else has seen a buff coming for EA for a long time.
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You know, I did a huge comparison with tons of math showing how stone wo granite and ea wo overload start off about even in general mitigation, with /ea pulling ahead no matter what power pool you added to it, but then I decided that about half the people in this thread can't count past ten with their shoes on and no one really cares anyway, so suffice to say that yes, /ea would be about the same as stone armor if overload was 'full time' like granite.
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Please please please post your "math" 
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When i said toggle god mode power as oveload.. I was refering to a "granite armor" type tier 9. Can't use any toggles but energy cloak, and Entropy Shield while it's active. Not only would this actually fix some of EA issues (imho) it would also help make granite not the be all end all defense set that people seem to make it out to be.
I stand by what i said earlier about making it into a purely resistance set with a defense power (maybe 2) thrown in, and given the toggle tier 9 (even if it meant they had to reduce some of the effectiveness to balance it)
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If OL becomes a toggle, then I would like to see the +hp go to +res (as sad as that would be, it would balance with the stalkers better considering cap issues). Also, maybe back off a bit on the +def, maybe about half the amount of mitigation, then add back a quarter of that in +res all. Then add the powerboost ability somewhere else (or siphon speed).
Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
jmsb
Por vezes d� vontade...
chucknorriss
speak american godamnit
Base Brute Hit points: 1499 at level 50
Base Brute endurance: 100%
Base Brute healing: 6.26 hp/sec.
Base Brute Recovery: 1.67 end/sec
Now, because brutes are attacking, let's assume that they are both using an attack chain of brawl-brawl-brawl-brawl. That comes out to (around) 1 end/sec from just attacking. With no powers activated, both brutes can attack endlessly, and have about .67 end/sec to play with without impacting their actual endurance.
for the sake of deciding 'mitigation' and giving stone armor a leg up in the end recovery department, let's leave off mud pots. Yes, it does extra damage, no, we are not talking about doing extra damage, we are talking about pure mitigation.
Running rock armor, stone skin, rooted, brimstone armor, earth's embrace, and minerals, versus /ea running kinetic shield, dampening field, power shield, entropy shield, energy cloak, energy drain, energy protection and conserve power. Mitigation numbers are based on an even-con minion, equating 1 def=2 res.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
attribute stone def ea def stone res ea res total mit(SA) total mit(EA) frequency mit freq.(SA) mit freq (ea)
Smash 12 16.5 7.5 7.5 27.5% 37.5% 16% 4.4% 6%
Lethal 12 16.5 7.5 7.5 27.5% 37.5% 19% 5.225% 7.125%
energy 12 20.6 0 9.4 24% 50.6% 24% 5.76% 12.144%
negative 12 14.3 0 7.5 24% 36.1% 8% 1.92% 2.888%
psi 18.8 3.8 0 0 37.6% 7.6% 12% 4.512% .912%
fire 0 18.8 18.8 0 18.8% 37.6% 11% 2.068% 4.136%
cold 0 18.8 18.8 0 18.8% 37.6% 6% 1.128% 2.256
toxic (pos) 0 3.8 15% 0 15% 7.6% 4% .6% .304%
</pre><hr />
Now, your actual frequency of encountering the different damage types is HIGHLY subjective, based on what missions you choose, whether or not you team, what kinds of missions you pick, your favorite zones, and even your tactics (whether you close to melee before taking the alpha, which opponent you target and kill first, etc.) I am going to use the numbers I have gleaned from running my ss/wp brute since I tended to wander wherever I wanted, and this was the first character I consistently used herostats with. You can modify this by choosing different enemies with relative ease, but this is what a large part of what I typically solo winds up as, percentage-wise. Ironically, energy damage is the MOST frequent type of damage in the game redside above level 30, unless you add smashing and lethal together (Which a lot of people do) Toxic is not typed for defense, so only 'general' positional defence is considered (defense to ALL positions)
Based on these damage type frequencies, your total initial mitigation follows:
stone: 25.613% initial mitigation.
/ea: 35.765% initial mitigation.
This is considering the 50% to-hit chances of an even-con minion. as enemies increase in level and/or difficulty, /ea's slightly higher energy resistance is actually MORE telling, in general, than stone's higher fire/cold resistance... and in combined mitigation, ez has around 30% higher initial mitigation.
To give a 'fair representation' we need to give both of them an incoming damage duration of 600 seconds, due to that being the longest recharge on any power that either set has. This will enable both sets to get all of their mitigation and damage reduction powers into the action, and we should consider an 'average spawn' of 3 (That IS pretty much the average sized spawn for a solo). Shorter durations would, as you will see, give an unfair advantage to /ea down to 180 seconds, and I want to be fair. To this point, when people have badmouthed /ea, it has always been in a circumstance with no outgoing attacks and limitless endurance, completely ignoring a primary feature of the set as a way of 'proving' it is inferior (I could prove regen was inferior too if I ignored it's ability to heal)
Total end/turn expenditure for /ea: 1.14 end/sec without adding in attacks. with brawl, it's about 2.04 end/sec. It will run out of end in 270.3 seconds. recovery time for both with all toggles turned off can be assumed to be 60 seconds
total end/turn expenditure for stone: 1.25 end/sec without attacks. with brawl, it's about 2.25 end/sec. That means that it will run out of end in around 210 seconds. Recovery time for both with all toggles turned off can be assumed to be 60 seconds
Let's complicate things a bit. /ea heals 6.26 hp/sec. The amount of 'incoming damage' that can be stopped by simple healing over 600 seconds is 3756 points. when added to the actual 'mitigation, that means incoming over 600 seconds, /ea can 'stop' almost exactly 5100 points of incoming damage assuming endless endurance
Stone's healing/mitigation is a little more complicated. While it has endurance, it heals about 12.5 hp/sec from rooted. That looks pretty good on paper, since it means that stone can stop a total of 9420. It can also heal another 5 hp/sec for 120 seconds out of 360 from earth's embrace, so it's 'average' healing for earth's embrace (due to the boosted hit points) is +5 for about 1/3rd of the time... so, over 600 seconds, the 'average' healing boost will be 3768 points of damage mitigated... plus an additional 1460 'pure' healing averaged over 600 seconds, so that means that stone can 'stop' 14648 damage over 600 seconds.
ea stops 5100 points of damage
stone stops 14648 damage.
"WOW!" You say. "That means stone has 3x as much mitigation as ea!"
Wrong.
See, there is something you are forgetting here. Earth's embrace costs endurance. Right now stone has to sit down and rest for 60 seconds every 210 seconds of activity, and that is WITHOUT throwing the end cost for earth's embrace into the mix. during that endurance downtime, which is closer to 60 seconds out of every 180 seconds (If you spam earth's embrace constantly) once you pay earth's embrace cost, you are getting NO mitigation... literally, for 1/3rd of the time, earth's mitigation drops to ZERO! we won't even be getting the benefit of increased hit points during this period, so when you average this out, your ACTUAL mitigation comes out to 2/3rds high mit, 1/3 rock bottom mitigation.
To be nice, we were running WITHOUT a real attack string. a 'standard' attack string usually costs about 2 end/sec. That means that stone armor will run out of endurance in LESS THAN 40 SECONDS you are, literally, spending 52.3 seconds actually up and fighting, and 60 seconds 'recharging' in every single fight. don't believe me. Check it for yourself what a 3.45 end/sec endurance useage (with adding in spamming earth's embrace) will do to your blue bar.
so, out of 600 seconds, you are only getting about 300 seconds of actual 'fighting' time. That puts a slightly different complexion on things... after all, this is a 'comparison in a vacuum' right? without power pools? /ea gives an additional recovery of approximately...well... assuming a brutal, 3.04 attack chain (including the cost for popping energy drain) 1 time during the 600 second period you gain 154 endurance. over that same period energy drain with 3 opponents earns you another 750 endurance. around 900 endurance, which over a 600 second period equates to a 'recovery' 3. That means /ea's 'downtime' for running a criminally expensive attack chain (3 end/sec) is actually 0
That means, on average, stone will 'mitigate' around 8875 points of damage over 600 seconds. (half your time at 'full' plus half your time at 'default' of 3756, plus an averaged-out heal from earth's embrace.)
"5100 vs 8875.. that means that stone mitigates about two-thirds more damage than EA right?"
No.
That means that stone SURVIVES, 'in a vacuum' two-thirds better. except for one problem. You don't get exp in this game by just surviving. you get exp by KILLING stuff... literally, stone is spending half of it's time NOT ATTACKING, which means mobs spend TWICE as long beating on stone... That's functionally identical to having half the mitigation as /ea, plus 2/3rds. Which mean that stone armor, in practice, in a vacuum, literally onlpy has about 5/6ths of /ea's REAL mitigation value.
You want to add stamina to the equation? fine. you add three powers (sprint, health, stamina.) and recalculate, and I will add 3 powers (aid other, aid self, maneuvers) and we can see how it adds up then. I have run these numbers over and over, and backwards, and /ea still comes out ahead, and in fact the gap grows significantly as you add in power pools.
In granite, I will freely admit that stone totally blows /ea out of the water (and all you have to give up is any sort of meaningful damage) but when you start excluding tier 9's, /ea is definitely a better performer than stone.
I didn't want to screw up my tabling.
I do my own work, thank you, Arcanaville's conclusions are incomplete. They are not wrong, they are just done in a 'perfect world' where everyone has endless endurance and revolve around an 'immortality line' that is relatively inadequate compared to 'incoming damage stopped'
Hey cool, I broke the page 
And yes, my entire last post was a complete waste of my time, because certain people are just going to skim it and ignore it and start picking at where I failed to capitalize a word instead of addressing it. I shouldn't have even bothered. This is the third time I have shown this and I am done, it will all be irrelevant in less than a month anyway.
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That means that stone SURVIVES, 'in a vacuum' two-thirds better. except for one problem. You don't get exp in this game by just surviving. you get exp by KILLING stuff... literally, stone is spending half of it's time NOT ATTACKING, which means mobs spend TWICE as long beating on stone... That's functionally identical to having half the mitigation as /ea, plus 2/3rds. Which mean that stone armor, in practice, in a vacuum, literally onlpy has about 5/6ths of /ea's REAL mitigation value.
[/ QUOTE ]
You also dont gain XP for laying on your face either. Stone may rest more frequantly for End but EA would also have to Rest Repeatedly for HP.
Not to mention you missed out on the frequancy and affect of Debuffs. Defence Debuffs are more common than Regen and Resistance Debuffs combined, and they gain no cumulitve resistance from it. Resistance Debuff Resistance acutlly reduces the amount the Debuff does. where as Defence debuff resistance does not, it just hacks off the value stated.
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I am done, it will all be irrelevant in less than a month anyway.
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I was just going to post and edit my other posts with this message in mind. Ultimately, any more arguing against these changes is just as much an exercise of beating ones head against the wall.
I apologize for being a bit trollish just now, Frostweaver, and helping goad you into a long post that, ultimately, doesn't matter.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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That means that stone SURVIVES, 'in a vacuum' two-thirds better. except for one problem. You don't get exp in this game by just surviving. you get exp by KILLING stuff... literally, stone is spending half of it's time NOT ATTACKING, which means mobs spend TWICE as long beating on stone... That's functionally identical to having half the mitigation as /ea, plus 2/3rds. Which mean that stone armor, in practice, in a vacuum, literally onlpy has about 5/6ths of /ea's REAL mitigation value.
[/ QUOTE ]
You also dont gain XP for laying on your face either. Stone may rest more frequantly for End but EA would also have to Rest Repeatedly for HP.
Not to mention you missed out on the frequancy and affect of Debuffs. Defence Debuffs are more common than Regen and Resistance Debuffs combined, and they gain no cumulitve resistance from it. Resistance Debuff Resistance acutlly reduces the amount the Debuff does. where as Defence debuff resistance does not, it just hacks off the value stated.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm.... what are you talking about?
we weren't talking about resistance, we were talking about /ea without ol and /stone without granite. The defense debuff resistance numbers highly favor /ea (51.9% versus stone's 26%) but I figured I already had a strong enough argument without bringing that up.
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That means that stone SURVIVES, 'in a vacuum' two-thirds better. except for one problem. You don't get exp in this game by just surviving. you get exp by KILLING stuff... literally, stone is spending half of it's time NOT ATTACKING, which means mobs spend TWICE as long beating on stone... That's functionally identical to having half the mitigation as /ea, plus 2/3rds. Which mean that stone armor, in practice, in a vacuum, literally onlpy has about 5/6ths of /ea's REAL mitigation value.
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You also dont gain XP for laying on your face either. Stone may rest more frequantly for End but EA would also have to Rest Repeatedly for HP.
Not to mention you missed out on the frequancy and affect of Debuffs. Defence Debuffs are more common than Regen and Resistance Debuffs combined, and they gain no cumulitve resistance from it. Resistance Debuff Resistance acutlly reduces the amount the Debuff does. where as Defence debuff resistance does not, it just hacks off the value stated.
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Umm.... what are you talking about?
we weren't talking about resistance, we were talking about /ea without ol and /stone without granite. The defense debuff resistance numbers highly favor /ea (51.9% versus stone's 26%) but I figured I already had a strong enough argument without bringing that up.
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Stone has resitance and a self heal to fall back on when its defence is carved up, EA has resistances that are hardly worth taking and thats it. when EAs defence is gone, the brute falls. when Stones Defence is gone, the brute heals more often
your arguement lacked to take that into account and was not strong enough. 
Small Defence + Resistance + Self heal > Defence + small resistance
Come back when you have some numbers.
I have two questions:
1) What are you using to get your mitigation numbers? Because my calculations give different results. Damage Mitigation = 1 - ((1-Resistance) * (0.5-Defense) / 0.5), where 0.5 is the original ToHit of the mob (since we're talking even con minions). For example, I get that Stone's Smashing Def/Res mitigation is 29.7%, and EA's smashing Def/Res mitigation is 38.025%.
2. Is there a reason that you're giving numbers without any enhancements whatsoever? The Devs may not be balancing with IOs in mind, but they sure as hell are doing so with SOs in mind.
3. Rest. It caps your endurance recovery and will take you to full in 11.4 seconds (plus a 6 second cast time). Not 60 seconds.
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
1) I am not sure how/where you are getting yours. and frankly, after saying you have two questions, I am not sure I should try and find out
2) I explained that in a post that got deleted. Primarily because I didn't want to have to decide what the 'best' slotting is, especially for powers like earth's embrace, since that would only open up more arguments over whether I should have slotted 2 recharge, 2 heal, 2 res, or 2 endredux, 2 res, or whatever. Obviously you can't 3 slot everything, so I left it out.
3) we are assuming a continuous incoming damage situation . Rest is a 'null factor' since it's the same for everyone.
My problem with blueside is not tankers and blasters (although controllers, kheldians, and scrappers fail the 'fun test' now) but I have just DONE the content so many times that it has become boring. especially running to 26 different zones for one contact.