Art etiquette: May I criticize?
By
Aerones,
Posted on: 2007-09-10 11:30 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
After reading all of this, Ive realized that the opinions are varied, wide and wild as the vast tundra.
I think the conclusion, average, and common denominator here is that everyone has a different view and to play it safe. In the future, Ill either wait for a cue to criticize or go by my prior experience with that person.
Thanks! 
Ahem, in the vein of this thread and stuff, could people pretty please read and critique my story? Linky is in my signature. I need honest feed back if I'm gonna improve.
=^_^=b
Your story sucks and I hope you die of ferret.
Alternate ending: Okay, Ill read it when I get the chance very soon.
I'm of the opinion that if you're posting your art in a public space you're fishing for responses of any sort. I think they're all helpfull in their own way, but unless the artist or person posting the picture says "Comment but don't say it's bad" or something I think it's all up in the air. Of course, constructive criticism is always better than "tat sux lolz"
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Your story sucks and I hope you die of ferret.
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=T_T=
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You seem to think that your it is somehow your right to express your opinion because this is a BBS board.
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Um? Because it *is* my right?
The public reaches of the forums are like the PvP zones. Making up your own set of rules for everyone to follow is going to lead you to pain. You either thicken your skin or don't participate.
I'm done with commenting on your stuff, because it's obvious that you're not going to try and see what needs to be fixed in your art. Honestly, that's fine and I hope that one day you'll see how to overcome those difficulties. You're one of the better artists here on the forums, but even the best of us are not perfect. Everyone can improve and strive to be better.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
I think if someone specifically says they don't want critiques, you shouldn't critique. If they don't say that, then I don't really see why you shouldn't critique. Although, you have to be careful. If you ONLY critique, not say what you like about the art, then you may make people feel bad about it, they may get mad, etc. So, my advice is to balance critiques and compliments. That way, if you say for example... "I like how the face looks, but I think the left hand looks a little off. The arms are great, but you might want to work on the folds on the clothes." Just off the top of my head. In other words, I would keep the same amount of critiques as you do compliments, or maybe have more compliments than critiques. And if somebody says that they drew whatever it is that way because it's their style, leave it alone. That's a matter of taste. That way, nobody gets upset, and nobody gets hurt.
But if they ask that you DON'T critique, then that's a totally different story. >_>
Well I think folks are getting confused as to what a critique is and isn't.
A critique affirms what is correct with the piece as well as what is incorrect with the piece. Critiques also inform the artist as to how to correct the errors or give advice as to how to find ways to correct the errors. If there isn't help given then I don't really call that a critique.
When I say critique, I mean pointing out errors and how to correct them.
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Five pages... *crawls through the debris*
So... my take on it. Whether or not you want it, people are GOING to comment, critique, praise. Any number of those. Hey, maybe even a flame. Artists need to learn a new art: taking a critique. Because taking a critique is an artform in and of itself...
Juggy, if you really want to improve, you have GOT to develop a thick skin for comments like that. Maybe you agree with them, maybe you don't. Water off a duck's back. But what happens when you answer in the format you have, regardless if you wanted a critique or not, it makes you seem like a whino. As if you're trying to cover up for the inadequacies of the piece. They look like excuses... and it's unprofessional. You can lose jobs that way. Because bosses do not want to deal with artists like that. Hell there might be art directors surfing this thread even now.
Instead, you could have simply stated, "Hey, thanks for the critique, I'll take it into consideration for my next piece!" and be done with it. It makes you look professional, it makes you look like you've taken their comments into consideration...and you're done!
When I pitch storyboards, sometimes my jokes get cut down by my director. When I design something, my boss will draw on top of it to show me what I need to improve. I have to take everything with a grain of salt. Most of the time, when it's another artist that I've dealt with, usually I can learn from it. But really, any time I get a critique, I listen. Even if I don't agree, even if it wasn't asked for... I listen and take things into consideration and make notes for later. You wont always get your way with directors or bosses, but what those people like to hear, is that what they said, even if it's not agreeable to you, is that they've been HEARD, and that they were addressed. That's it. That's all..
Remember: Thick Skin...
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Fine advice Sayterra... and I do not disagree. I've been on this board long enough, and learned enough from it, to know that I need help. I've had some great comments on my work from the likes of Doug, The PMD, and others. And in turn, I hope they respected it when I commented on theirs.
If it seems like whining, maybe that's how it seems. This is the internet and things can seem many ways to many people. To me, it simply seemed annoying.
It's obvious that this was a "requested" fan art piece and that the person requesting it was happy with it. If you see someting you don't like... saying so is fine. But when doesit go over the line?
If Doug does up a (possibly expensive) piece for someone, and spends HOURS on it, it's far too easy for someone to come along and devalue it by insisting on certain things.
I think you may have missed that the "critic" came back a number oftimes to that thread to emphasize their point. To me, that starts to border on trolling. Fine, give your point, if it's take, ok - if not, then move on. But to try to push it on the artist and the person requesting it - even if they dissagree - is just wrong.
Sayterra, you gave the example of a professional environment, lets go with that. You're working on a piece from your editor and you finish it upand give it to her. She likes it and you like it. But some guy in the office does not. You listen to their point, yet both ofyou disagree with it. No biggy right? But then that same coworker keeps coming by your desk and insisting they are right.
You telling me that it wouldn't get annoying?
((The truth is, all of this could have been handled by a polite PM instead. I come to these boards primarily because of the pride peple take in their heroes. It's a joy to see how mch people put into them - art or otherwise. When soeone tries to burst that joy... it's discouraging))
It seems to me that the first thing to respect is basically free speech. Although that's tweaked a little bit as the forum is privately owned and operated, so the moderators' influences on speech should be mixed into this respect a bit. Other than that, if someone feels the need to speak, even with content unappealing to the majority, respect for that speech shouldn't be thrown away.
After that, it seems reasonable to approach the community in specifically the screenshots and fan art forum more the way they'd want to be approached, rather than being abrasive and/or abusive. I gotta believe the opportunities to synergize yourself here are really great with all the talent focused here. These opportunities tend to dry up if that talent is forced to own up to the obligation of respecting particularly abrasive free speech.
Now, since I'm a very very critical guy, (you should see how I beat myself up over trivial details of my own art), I've occasionally felt the need to criticize negatively on certain pieces presented in the forum. And I'm motivated on trying to work with the community than just barking at them, so my approach tends to be:
1) Is the thread good for criticism? This usually is satisfied if the OP directly asked for criticism, and has enough of a rep of maturity to be able to handle criticisms with grace. It's even better if the thread already features several posts where people have offered critiques and the OP providing well-balanced responses. If there's any doubt that the thread isn't good (not just average) for criticism, then I would choose not to reply in the thread, but instead respond in a PM.
2) Disclaim, disclaim, disclaim. Criticism can easily lead to embarrassment, (even if the target is mature), so I try not to carelessly eliminate ways the artist might want to use to save face from my well-intentioned assaults. After all, I'm no art authority, I just have my own personal but very ignorable opinion. (Also, if you're generally a great fan of their art, then don't hide that fact! Just be brief about it.)
3) Focus the arguments. Try to quickly hone in on the individual elements you want to criticize and don't embellish if possible. Above all make sure you suggest alternatives, or even better, reference similar works of art that can demonstrate the differences better. If all you're interested in saying is: 'I don't like the blue you used,' well, there's probably no need to go beyond your own personal space to express that.
4) Be brief. Criticism taxes patience. And we all have too many taxes to pay these days. Express yourself then get out of the artist's space so he can be more relaxed when thinking about it.
In the end, art is in the eye of the beholder, as cliche as that sounds. Every piece that every artist makes is pretty much up for extremely intensely judgemental review by the community. But the people in this forum are pretty nice overall, and I for one hope that continues.
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Five pages... *crawls through the debris*
So... my take on it. Whether or not you want it, people are GOING to comment, critique, praise. Any number of those. Hey, maybe even a flame. Artists need to learn a new art: taking a critique. Because taking a critique is an artform in and of itself...
Juggy, if you really want to improve, you have GOT to develop a thick skin for comments like that. Maybe you agree with them, maybe you don't. Water off a duck's back. But what happens when you answer in the format you have, regardless if you wanted a critique or not, it makes you seem like a whino. As if you're trying to cover up for the inadequacies of the piece. They look like excuses... and it's unprofessional. You can lose jobs that way. Because bosses do not want to deal with artists like that. Hell there might be art directors surfing this thread even now.
Instead, you could have simply stated, "Hey, thanks for the critique, I'll take it into consideration for my next piece!" and be done with it. It makes you look professional, it makes you look like you've taken their comments into consideration...and you're done!
When I pitch storyboards, sometimes my jokes get cut down by my director. When I design something, my boss will draw on top of it to show me what I need to improve. I have to take everything with a grain of salt. Most of the time, when it's another artist that I've dealt with, usually I can learn from it. But really, any time I get a critique, I listen. Even if I don't agree, even if it wasn't asked for... I listen and take things into consideration and make notes for later. You wont always get your way with directors or bosses, but what those people like to hear, is that what they said, even if it's not agreeable to you, is that they've been HEARD, and that they were addressed. That's it. That's all..
Remember: Thick Skin...
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Fine advice Sayterra... and I do not disagree. I've been on this board long enough, and learned enough from it, to know that I need help. I've had some great comments on my work from the likes of Doug, The PMD, and others. And in turn, I hope they respected it when I commented on theirs.
If it seems like whining, maybe that's how it seems. This is the internet and things can seem many ways to many people. To me, it simply seemed annoying.
It's obvious that this was a "requested" fan art piece and that the person requesting it was happy with it. If you see someting you don't like... saying so is fine. But when doesit go over the line?
If Doug does up a (possibly expensive) piece for someone, and spends HOURS on it, it's far too easy for someone to come along and devalue it by insisting on certain things.
I think you may have missed that the "critic" came back a number oftimes to that thread to emphasize their point. To me, that starts to border on trolling. Fine, give your point, if it's take, ok - if not, then move on. But to try to push it on the artist and the person requesting it - even if they dissagree - is just wrong.
Sayterra, you gave the example of a professional environment, lets go with that. You're working on a piece from your editor and you finish it upand give it to her. She likes it and you like it. But some guy in the office does not. You listen to their point, yet both ofyou disagree with it. No biggy right? But then that same coworker keeps coming by your desk and insisting they are right.
You telling me that it wouldn't get annoying?
((The truth is, all of this could have been handled by a polite PM instead. I come to these boards primarily because of the pride peple take in their heroes. It's a joy to see how mch people put into them - art or otherwise. When soeone tries to burst that joy... it's discouraging))
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If someone was to badger me after the fact? Ignore them. It's up to you to be the bigger person and leave those folks alone. Yeah it's hard (I'm one of those that gets easily frustrated) but in the end, it usually works. Or if it's online, get up from your computer, and leave for five minutes. Get a glass of water. Turn off that section of the message board. Do something else.
I've yet to see Doug be insulted on his pieces. I guess he's lucky or I haven't seen it. I'm not one of those lucky ones. Imagine having one designer from Disney love your work, but another animator says that what you've done is nothing but "animator's post it note doodles"... without telling me how I needed to fix the piece.
That's something that we have to deal with as artists. We're going to get people who say "I don't like it!" Yeah it's discouraging, but one voice out of many shouldn't dissuade you from being artistic...
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...I've yet to see Doug be insulted on his pieces. I guess he's lucky or I haven't seen it...
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I don't get insulted when people dislike my work because I've come to terms with certain realities;
1 - I know my art can't please everyone, so I don't bother trying. As long as my client and myself are both happy with it, then I succeeded.
2 - Everyone on the internet has an opinion and they don't always coincide with my own. People with whom I disagree, I ignore.
3 - I have more vital things to worry about than what someone online might think about my art. I let myself worry about the things that matter and gloss over the things that don't.
4 - Life is too short to allow someone else to twist me up with thier views. If something bothers me, I go get Taco Bell and watch the Discovery Channel.
5 - I've learned the value of humility; I know I'm not the best artist. I know I never will be the best artist. Therefore, I accept criticisms as they are intended.
6 - I allow myself to enjoy the compliments, while allowing myself to ignore the flames. How I accept criticisms is MY choice, so I choose to turn them into a positive force. Anything else is unhealthy.
7 - There is class in professionalism. Being defensive, rude, or argumentive can't lead to a positive result... so I don't bother.
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I'm of the opinion that if you're posting your art in a public space you're fishing for responses of any sort. I think they're all helpfull in their own way, but unless the artist or person posting the picture says "Comment but don't say it's bad" or something I think it's all up in the air. Of course, constructive criticism is always better than "tat sux lolz"
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I used to be of the same opinion, I mean that's why I post my art, isn't it true for all artists? Just like in writing, an extra pair of eyes always helps picking out errors than someone who has been staring at it for hours and hours. Then I tried being helpful with a couple critiques on the forums here and got slammed for it. Pretty much cured me of doing that, so I just keep my mouth shut now.
Besides, nobody listens to me anyway, right? 
TL
Gah doug! *Bows* soon as I get extra money I'm requesting art from you and Juggy, that'll be in a few weeks I hope :/
Everytime I get extra money some jerkface hits my car and I gott a repair it, or somthing with the house, or a new fridge, or a new oven range, it never ends.
Heh and to add to thread, you guys think visual art critics are bad, hooo you should see the audiphiles and electronic dance music critics, I can't tell you how many times I wanted to punch a non producer, non DJ, typical listener in the head for presumably "intelligently" ripping apart my set on the basis of..they don't like trance! *shakefist*
But that said, critiquing is an artform in itself, I try to point out the good and bad things, the picture juggy drew was great, I thought the two girls were contrasted as day and night, one with rounded shoulders and more curves, the the other with sharper angles and more thin-ness, but could have been the background, I haven't seen one without the background to compare it to.
Juggy post one without the background so I can compare, and give you cookies ^_^.
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I'm of the opinion that if you're posting your art in a public space you're fishing for responses of any sort. I think they're all helpfull in their own way, but unless the artist or person posting the picture says "Comment but don't say it's bad" or something I think it's all up in the air. Of course, constructive criticism is always better than "tat sux lolz"
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I used to be of the same opinion, I mean that's why I post my art, isn't it true for all artists? Just like in writing, an extra pair of eyes always helps picking out errors than someone who has been staring at it for hours and hours. Then I tried being helpful with a couple critiques on the forums here and got slammed for it. Pretty much cured me of doing that, so I just keep my mouth shut now.
Besides, nobody listens to me anyway, right?
TL
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It does help you pick out the problems! Its really hard to see the mistakes in your own drawing or arts you just finished unless you wait a month and look at it again (Or you cheat like alot of people do, and just flip the picture over and look at it backwards - thats the best way to see all the little flaws right off the bat). But you shouldn't be slammed for a good critique. Then again. criticism and critique may sound alot alike but they're two completely different words. As helpfull as it is I don't think anyone really likes hearing only flaws, so its nice ballancing it out with what the person did right in the piece.
But seriously, flipping the picture over really works.
And with regards to Darkjedi's post about not worrying about pleasing everyone with your art (And you shouldnt try to) I recall the words of Carlos Mencia "I gave up trying to please everyone with my comedy, because what happens to people that try to please everyone in the world? Jesus? Ghandi? Kennedy?(I think he said Kennedy) *followed be bobbing himself on the wrist , then the head twice with his microphone imitating a nail gun and two gunshots*"
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...I've yet to see Doug be insulted on his pieces. I guess he's lucky or I haven't seen it...
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I don't get insulted when people dislike my work because I've come to terms with certain realities;
1 - I know my art can't please everyone, so I don't bother trying. As long as my client and myself are both happy with it, then I succeeded.
2 - Everyone on the internet has an opinion and they don't always coincide with my own. People with whom I disagree, I ignore.
3 - I have more vital things to worry about than what someone online might think about my art. I let myself worry about the things that matter and gloss over the things that don't.
4 - Life is too short to allow someone else to twist me up with thier views. If something bothers me, I go get Taco Bell and watch the Discovery Channel.
5 - I've learned the value of humility; I know I'm not the best artist. I know I never will be the best artist. Therefore, I accept criticisms as they are intended.
6 - I allow myself to enjoy the compliments, while allowing myself to ignore the flames. How I accept criticisms is MY choice, so I choose to turn them into a positive force. Anything else is unhealthy.
7 - There is class in professionalism. Being defensive, rude, or argumentive can't lead to a positive result... so I don't bother.
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Doug I think you are my brother from another mother.
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It does help you pick out the problems! Its really hard to see the mistakes in your own drawing or arts you just finished unless you wait a month and look at it again (Or you cheat like alot of people do, and just flip the picture over and look at it backwards - thats the best way to see all the little flaws right off the bat).
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I generally leave the piece be for a couple days and not look at it, then come back to it...but the way you mentioned seems much quicker!
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But you shouldn't be slammed for a good critique. Then again. criticism and critique may sound alot alike but they're two completely different words. As helpfull as it is I don't think anyone really likes hearing only flaws, so its nice ballancing it out with what the person did right in the piece.
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The instance that sticks out in my mind the most, artist posts their WIP pic, after several pages of "oohs" and "Ahhs", I post something along the lines of "I really like what you did here, here, and here, but this part bothers me a little bit, here's why in case you want to look into adjusting it, just my two cents" sort of thing...the sort of helpful feedback that I look for.... The artist comes back with a real snotty, "who are YOU to critique me" atitude about it, which just irked me to no end as I was just trying to be helpful and pretty much confirmed my earlier personal opinion of said artist.
So now my critiques are few and far between, and reserved mainly for A) people that ask for them, B) people I know who can take them, C) artists I like, who I want to see grow even better (that usually includes the former two as well).
Of course, that's when I have time to comment anymore....
TL
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It does help you pick out the problems! Its really hard to see the mistakes in your own drawing or arts you just finished unless you wait a month and look at it again (Or you cheat like alot of people do, and just flip the picture over and look at it backwards - thats the best way to see all the little flaws right off the bat).
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I generally leave the piece be for a couple days and not look at it, then come back to it...but the way you mentioned seems much quicker!
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But you shouldn't be slammed for a good critique. Then again. criticism and critique may sound alot alike but they're two completely different words. As helpfull as it is I don't think anyone really likes hearing only flaws, so its nice ballancing it out with what the person did right in the piece.
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The instance that sticks out in my mind the most, artist posts their WIP pic, after several pages of "oohs" and "Ahhs", I post something along the lines of "I really like what you did here, here, and here, but this part bothers me a little bit, here's why in case you want to look into adjusting it, just my two cents" sort of thing...the sort of helpful feedback that I look for.... The artist comes back with a real snotty, "who are YOU to critique me" atitude about it, which just irked me to no end as I was just trying to be helpful and pretty much confirmed my earlier personal opinion of said artist.
So now my critiques are few and far between, and reserved mainly for A) people that ask for them, B) people I know who can take them, C) artists I like, who I want to see grow even better (that usually includes the former two as well).
Of course, that's when I have time to comment anymore....
TL
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THEN WHY DO YOU NOT CRITIQUE MEEEEEEEEEE? <T_T>;
Are you saying you don't like me? <;_;>
*feels unloved*
*Sorry <,< need something funny in this thread dammit!*
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
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Doug I think you are my brother from another mother.
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HAHA, awesome! That would be cool.
"We at Turkey Lurkey Enterprises would love to comment on every submission we receive, unfortunately due to corporate outsource downsizing and increased dynamic synergy, our critique queue is very long. Your art is important to us, and will be commented upon in the order is received. Current wait time is 8 months. Your patience is appreciated."
TL
I usually don't comment on artwork, unless its from an artist that I've been following. In terms of this section that's about 3 artists who post here: Gill Bates, Graver and DarkJedi
I always make my comments constructive because I'm coming from the place of a fan of the artist. But its just my opinion and nothing worth freeting over.
I also figure if you put it up for the public, you should be prepared for some type of commentary.
EDIT: There was a time when people did give more comments beyond the "Ooos and Ahhs" I think that's more helpful to people in the long run. Not every work in the section is fantastic, some people are still learning and trying things out. It's not a horribile idea to give a polite suggestion here and there.
*coughs and hands turkey another sheet of paper* "you forgot the trademarks!"
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I usually don't comment on artwork, unless its from an artist that I've been following. In terms of this section that's about 3 artists who post here: Gill Bates, Graver and DarkJedi...
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Wait yer not following ME?!!! 
Just a note and all, not everyone's looking to become a professional artist, some just like to do art for fun. All the advice in the world about how to be a professional doesn't do much good for someone who really only wanted to show a gift for a friend and instead gets an earful of unasked for critique 'because it will help' that discourages them