Art etiquette: May I criticize?
By
Aerones,
Posted on: 2007-09-10 11:30 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
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You may enjoy the fact that this place is a shallow little place .
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Well, I think you've made your opinion clear on how you feel about this place.
It's funny, because usually if I want to comment on someone's art, I always find myself following the 2:1 rule. 2 positives to 1 negative. I like to encourage instead of beat down.
This forum is not designed for critiques of art - I've never read that that was the pupose ofthe place. The majority of posters here are 1) fans of the game and 2) fans of their characters. Mainly, I see thisplace as one to show off their characters (in whatever form).
If you want to levy harsh critisism on people's work, perhaps you could find boards where people go for exactly that?
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One (or a few) off handed comments could really drive away burgeoning artists.
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I wanted to say I am in total agreement here. I have a younger brother who had a good eye and hand at drawing and sketches. He enjoyed drawing as well, until that is he encountered his grade 10 Art Teacher. When asked for his opinion my brother does not hesitate to give it, and he was asked one day for his opinions on a few well known pieces of art. His OPINION however was not to the teachers liking so she went out of her way to harshly criticize and mark his work. To this day he has no more interest in drawing or scribbling. My brother has a strong sense of right and wrong, Justice and injustice (If we lived in Greyhawk he'd be a Paladin, hands down. ) The injustice and treatment he recieved from the teacher soured him to all art. I can't even bribe him with batches of cookies and pie for him to sketch my characters. 
So yeah, you want to be careful with someone who is just starting out.
=. .=
PS: I have no clue why that woman was teaching.
Personally, I try to improve my art with every piece, and there are few better ways than to get the opinions of others. While I might not agree with what's said, I *do* listen and take every critique into consideration.
Regarding commissions; it's usually not good to critique something that someone else has paid for, since they're not likely to be interested in someone pointing out flaws in a piece they just paid for.
In most cases, a polite PM to the artist is the best approach.
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One (or a few) off handed comments could really drive away burgeoning artists.
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I wanted to say I am in total agreement here. I have a younger brother who had a good eye and hand at drawing and sketches. He enjoyed drawing as well, until that is he encountered his grade 10 Art Teacher. When asked for his opinion my brother does not hesitate to give it, and he was asked one day for his opinions on a few well known pieces of art. His OPINION however was not to the teachers liking so she went out of her way to harshly criticize and mark his work. To this day he has no more interest in drawing or scribbling. My brother has a strong sense of right and wrong, Justice and injustice (If we lived in Greyhawk he'd be a Paladin, hands down. ) The injustice and treatment he recieved from the teacher soured him to all art. I can't even bribe him with batches of cookies and pie for him to sketch my characters.
So yeah, you want to be careful with someone who is just starting out.
=. .=
PS: I have no clue why that woman was teaching.
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I had a rather similar situation myself. Thankfully though, I also had my teacher's husband in my other art classes >.<; so I got a dose of positive too. (He was a real nice guy, one of those ones who did his best to guide you, without dominating your work).
But yah, it took the wind out of my sails rather badly for many years. It was pretty damned hard to work up the nerve to even try posting things online, as I very much expected to just be screamed at frankly.
Heck, I still have the first pic I EVER posted here (shocked I remember it)
Anyone remember this?
Good grief thats old >.>;
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Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
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In my opinion, this place is a pool of people that could be great artists, not just good ones. But who become locked into their art and stagnate because it's 'good enough for government work.' And the culture here promotes it more and more. A little reality injection isn't a bad thing.
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Well, I think you've made your opinion clear on how you feel about this place.
It's funny, because usually if I want to comment on someone's art, I always find myself following the 2:1 rule. 2 positives to 1 negative. I like to encourage instead of beat down.
This forum is not designed for critiques of art - I've never read that that was the pupose ofthe place. The majority of posters here are 1) fans of the game and 2) fans of their characters. Mainly, I see thisplace as one to show off their characters (in whatever form).
If you want to levy harsh critisism on people's work, perhaps you could find boards where people go for exactly that?
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That's kinda how I like to do it myself. That's how most people did it in my art classes as well; as tearing things to shreds just frankly does not help anyone. That is unless you're an incredibly confident person - but I've found very few of those.
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
Teaching art in the current system is a huge challenge, there are those who actually see merit in having your kids cut construction paper flowers like some kind of Chinese sweatshop.
On the other hand, in the grade school I student taught at, the homeroom teachers were crying out for new blood, so we did a lot of outside of the box art which I think helped them a great deal to look at art as something else then what you put on your refrigerator.
We had a comic book class for 6th graders after school, and I had to beat kids off with a stick from taking that class. I feel for your brother Tundara, and btw I love pie... 
This forum has never seem to me, to be about critiques as a whole, I think it is foremost a fan art section by real lovers of the game. And on second thought, a nice starting platform for people wanting to learn to do this type of art.
To judge the work on the same criteria you would a painting is not the same thought process. The images here are mostly iconic, and other than perspective and anatomy, there is no universal criteria to compare with other types of art. That said, I 'm not saying that critiques shouldn't be given, it IS up to the artist to take it seriously, or not, be complacent or not.
A healthy discussion though is a good thing to strive for, and not just plain blatant criticism for the sake of posting.
I will not apologize for enjoying praise, but neither do I want to be coddled. I am humbled by the enormous amount of support here and with talent like Doug's, Alex's, and Suchiro's, how can one not listen when they chime in with an honest viewpoint.
Perhaps someone in the City Scoop could write an article on how to give a well thought out critique and how NOT to give one. And then a good follow up would be how to take that critique without freaking out. I'll need several copies of the latter...
LJ
When you don't like someone's art, bite your tongue, don't post and move on.
It works for me.
if an art posting has "critique not desired" I'll just give the accolades.
Other than that... I'm not afraid to say exactly what seems 'off' about a piece. It's not enough to say "enh. I don't like it." you have to be able to articulate what exactly the problem is in your view.
A critique should tell the artist what improvements you think might make the piece BETTER. general "good, bad, sucky, awesome" aren't as helpful.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
To expand on my previous post, I once encountered a critique system that I thought was awesome. The short version is that critiques are never welcome unless asked for... but once asked for, the poster could ask for a variable level of critique using the following point system;
Level 1 critique - "I'm a first-timer, please be gentle"
Level 2 critique - "I'm working on a few details, but what do you think?"
Level 3 critique - "Ok, I know my stuff. What's your honest opinion?"
Level 4 critique - "I'm good, but not yet perfect. Be brutal and help me get this perfect"
Level 5 critique - "Burn me baby! Critique away, I can take it."
So, using that system, newcomers to art might ask for a lvl 1 or 2 critique so they can get thier feet wet, while someone else might say "this is going to Marvel tomorrow... gimme the lvl 5."
Anyway, it worked in the EQ community. Just an idea.
I admit, when I post here, 99% of the time, its wanting to share some art I got/bought, sometimes done by artists here, and anyone critiquing it would points against them for being rude.
The few times I post original art, I'll be honest, I'm not interested in what professional/paid artists and self styled art experts think because I'm not willing to put the effort required into actually trying to get better through practice, its more a occasionally making forward progress while wandering about thing
Critique me!
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To expand on my previous post, I once encountered a critique system that I thought was awesome. The short version is that critiques are never welcome unless asked for... but once asked for, the poster could ask for a variable level of critique using the following point system;
Level 1 critique - "I'm a first-timer, please be gentle"
Level 2 critique - "I'm working on a few details, but what do you think?"
Level 3 critique - "Ok, I know my stuff. What's your honest opinion?"
Level 4 critique - "I'm good, but not yet perfect. Be brutal and help me get this perfect"
Level 5 critique - "Burn me baby! Critique away, I can take it."
So, using that system, newcomers to art might ask for a lvl 1 or 2 critique so they can get thier feet wet, while someone else might say "this is going to Marvel tomorrow... gimme the lvl 5."
Anyway, it worked in the EQ community. Just an idea.
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I like that quite a bit. It'd need some refinement of course, but I think its an excellent system.
I think the key thing that we all need to be able to view here, is that this place is not JUST an art forum, nor is it JUST a community.
It's both. And those two roles sometimes conflict.
On the community side, we need to be as welcoming and helpful to each other as possible - no one should walk out of here feeling hurt or like everyone hates them.
But on the other side, there's always that need and want to improve. Without that drive, its true, we can just turn in to endless reprinting machines, especially for people like myself who progress very slooooooooowly.
I guess the point I'm trying to make in a roundabout way, is that there's room for both perspectives here, and both are pretty valid.
By assuming that one must either coddle or crush, one denies the opportunity this place presents. Its a safe haven for people who are afraid to show their stuff (and honestly, I don't care what anyone says, it IS hard to show your stuff the first time. There's a lot of fear and a lot of doubt in most people). But then there's the more experienced folks who've been around for a good while, and for them its probably more useful that they get some real feedback.
In neither case should there be any bashing (I think that's fairly well established and I've never honestly seen it here); but its useful to reiterate that.
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
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I guess the point I'm trying to make in a roundabout way, is that there's room for both perspectives here, and both are pretty valid.
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Agreed, I think I've learned a lot from the comments I've received here. I guess the reason I'm looking at this a little stronly right now is because of this thread.
To me, it was obvious that the person who the art was done for was happy. Heck, it might not of been the best picture in the world, but I tried my best. And to have someone, not once, ot twice, but thrice try to push their opinion down my throat was getting my goat. I thik you can see how everyone else tried to give their thoughts, but also added a touch of kindness - one poster did not though.
I've been an educator for 10 years now and I strongly believe it is good form to encourage people when making those type of comments. Sure, I've had people critique my work here before, but generally I found them to be nice about it.
If I really want things torn apart, I'll post at PJ - a lot of great artists and fans there who take the tim to give constructive advice.
Your emotions blind you to the praise in the comments as well. The fact that your art is good enough to actually warrant real attention should be a blessing. If you think that's a hard critique that 'tears apart' your art, then you've got a very soft threshold for commentary.
Especially as an established artist already. You should be less likely to succumb to an ego hit like that. If you disagree with the opinions then by all means, ignore it. But it's obvious to more than just myself that there's a hurdle here to cross.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
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If you're the artist and you're posting your art up on a relatively public BBS because you want attention, then you really have no choice but to take critiques regardless of if you want them. If you really don't want people to comment, don't post it.
As for giving critiques, I say that unless the thread specifically says no critiques, or the person posting it isn't the artist themselves, then it's really of no use to try. If they tell you up front they don't want critiques, then they won't listen anyways. If they're not the artist, they really can't make use of the info. Otherwise, it's open season.
Your opinion is exactly that. Your opinion. It is not fact, nor is it law. It's up to the artist themselves to decide if their art is good or not and they should not be influenced by the peanut gallery's every whim. If you're easily upset by comments from people, then you should seriously reconsider never putting up art online again. The net is a wild and untamed land of aggressive idiots, not a closed viewing hall built to rain praises down on you.
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I would agree with your response...except that I don't think it answers the question the OP was asking. I think your response would be better directed as advice towards artists who might recieve a critique. In other words, an artist should probably be ready and willing to recieve some negative feedback.
However, the OP was asking what the proper etiquette was for when it is acceptable to give a critique. While the net might be a wild and untamed land...that does not make the sorts of aggressive and viscious attacks that are so common proper etiquette. It just makes them typical.
Well hmm thats a mixed bag, I know my art isn't the best and once I get a scanner I'll start throwing it on my deviant art, I offer critiques, sometimes even if the artist hasn't asked, but PM first.
As an artist, (of both car modding, musical and visual), I accepted long ago that you will be critiqued, you will not always like it, but that is part of presenting your work to the public, everyone is a critic, sometimes they're not aware of personal styles or thematic presentation but "the path of a true artist is faught with peril, strife, caffeine and frayed nerves".
Darkjedi's post is excellent advice for artists. Not that I think there needs to be something so formal...heck, each and every time you post a piece, just be clear on if you are interested in recieving feedback. Quite a few people have posted in this thread that they are fine or actually welcome feedback...but don't expect everyone to just remember your preferences.
Help fight intarweb communication breakdown...learn to express yourself clearly!
In my opinion, the artist should state if they want a critique or not, or if it's a finish piece to say so and say 'yup that's it I'm done no more changes' even if someone points out something egrariously wrong with it. :P
I know artists on DA that don't want crits they set that when they post the piece. There's a section for it.
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Your emotions blind you to the praise in the comments as well. The fact that your art is good enough to actually warrant real attention should be a blessing. If you think that's a hard critique that 'tears apart' your art, then you've got a very soft threshold for commentary.
Especially as an established artist already. You should be less likely to succumb to an ego hit like that. If you disagree with the opinions then by all means, ignore it. But it's obvious to more than just myself that there's a hurdle here to cross.
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Yup, I guess I'm just way too sensitive. Let's take a look at what you said...
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Is the pic stretched vertically? It seems to be skewed a bit, with the girls' bodies being pretty thin. It's more noticeable in the face and hair though.
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Did I miss the praise here? All I see is critisism.
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I dunno, I think that the problem lays in the lines of the girls themselves, not in the perspective of the background. If you removed the background entirely, I think it would still appear vertically skewed. The mid-drift shirt and the sharpness of the shoulders seem like they were originally at a more horizontal angle, but were pulled upwards as they approach the middle, making the sides seem unbalanced. The overall thinness of the girls would point to the same thing.
Even if they're pretty thin to begin with, there's a point where the proportions start to look 'off' to the human eye. Something about it just seems... weird. It's a great picture, but I feel like a simple transform on the character layers would make it much better.
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Ah, THERE is the praise! How could I have missed it??
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Critique is exactly that. Opinion. Nothing more or nothing less.
I very much disagree with the idea that it's the background that's effecting this picture, as I'm carefully judging the proportions of the lineart on the characters directly. Though this is a problem that I see in most of your art thusfar. A personal style is likely the cause of it, though you're hitting the uncanny valley here. The characters don't appear stylized, but the proportions don't match the standard for humans. As I said before, a simple transform on the character layer to reduce the vertical skewing would help a lot.
I'm not the only one that sees the stretch in your style. If you like it, then by all means, use it. If critiques anger you, then I'd suggest rethinking how you post. The fact that someone would pay enough attention to your art and not give a simple 'it sucks' is proof that it's getting an audience that actually cares. Instead of the standard head inflating 'OMG SO GUD' chants that reverberate most art forums.
I actually like the pic, as I stated earlier.
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Wow, I'm feeling bowled over with the love right now. You have really made your post encouraging. How could I have felt any different?
The truth is, out of the three posts you made, and the paragraphs there in, you made two small off-handed compliments. They were FAR OUT WEIGHED by your critique - a critique I did not ask for nor want.
That pic was done FOR SOMEONE. That person posted how much they liked it. For you to come and continually try to pick it appart is bad form. You seem to think that your it is somehow your right to express your opinion because this is a BBS board.
Let me make it clear, I would love it if you never posted on another one of my pieces again.
I guess Im too easy. I like everyones work here. Even stick figures can be fun. Eye of the beholder man! This isnt an art gallery with freaks sipping wine. As Juggs said, this is a place where people who love this game come to share their visions. I do like the critique number system that Dark Jedi suggested though.
View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com
I am always trying to improve, so if anyone feels they can help me then tell me. I always try to get my wife to do it, but she will say things like, "Somethings wrong. I don't know what but something's wrong."
Gee thanks.
The compliments are fine, but then I would prefer to hear what part they liked than just a "cool".
Five pages... *crawls through the debris*
So... my take on it. Whether or not you want it, people are GOING to comment, critique, praise. Any number of those. Hey, maybe even a flame. Artists need to learn a new art: taking a critique. Because taking a critique is an artform in and of itself...
Juggy, if you really want to improve, you have GOT to develop a thick skin for comments like that. Maybe you agree with them, maybe you don't. Water off a duck's back. But what happens when you answer in the format you have, regardless if you wanted a critique or not, it makes you seem like a whino. As if you're trying to cover up for the inadequacies of the piece. They look like excuses... and it's unprofessional. You can lose jobs that way. Because bosses do not want to deal with artists like that. Hell there might be art directors surfing this thread even now.
Instead, you could have simply stated, "Hey, thanks for the critique, I'll take it into consideration for my next piece!" and be done with it. It makes you look professional, it makes you look like you've taken their comments into consideration...and you're done!
When I pitch storyboards, sometimes my jokes get cut down by my director. When I design something, my boss will draw on top of it to show me what I need to improve. I have to take everything with a grain of salt. Most of the time, when it's another artist that I've dealt with, usually I can learn from it. But really, any time I get a critique, I listen. Even if I don't agree, even if it wasn't asked for... I listen and take things into consideration and make notes for later. You wont always get your way with directors or bosses, but what those people like to hear, is that what they said, even if it's not agreeable to you, is that they've been HEARD, and that they were addressed. That's it. That's all..
Remember: Thick Skin...
VERY good advice...well put Sayterra.
I always have nothing but praise for our forum artists. We have some people with unbelievable talent here and some that are raw. The praise is for the fact that they all try their best and put their hearts into the work they do.
I will give a critique if asked though.
You may enjoy the fact that this place is a shallow little place with hundreds of voices to call up praise, but this does not make good artists. If you believe that your art is great because other people tell you it is and then are insulted when you take that art to other less coddling boards and get harsh critiques, then that's your fault for becoming complacent.
As someone that truely enjoys art and has raised a number of aspiring artists myself, encouraging people to create is always a good thing, but you do them a disservice by lulling them into a false sense of pride. A good artist will continue to create because the love of their art inspires... no, forces them to continue. If you really enjoy a particular artist or piece of art and wish to express it, do something to help that artist out. Don't say 'That's good!' and then leave them with an inflated ego.
In my opinion, this place is a pool of people that could be great artists, not just good ones. But who become locked into their art and stagnate because it's 'good enough for government work.' And the culture here promotes it more and more. A little reality injection isn't a bad thing.
But then opinion, is just that. Opinion. It's up to everyone else to decide how they feel on it, separately.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN