City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Draft of Base Feedback for Ex Libris

Acid_Reign

By Acid_Reign,
Posted on: 2007-08-29 07:31 in Base Construction

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Empowerment base buffs lasts an hour, nothing stops anyone from leaving a PVP zone and going to the base once per hour. Same with inspiration, if you're in RV you can access multiple contacts selling you inspirations without even leaving the city hall / grandville tower. No idea what you mean with tier9 exploit.

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But I'm not talking about Empowerment. I'm talking about an actual Exploit (and I'm sick of people second guessing the definition of EXPLOIT, we don't have time for that crap!). applying buffs to someone else or to one's self that should not be available at all in the level range that the PvE zone exemps that person down to. ...gulping Teir-2's... etc, stuff like that.

Everything else you said... really doesn't explain why issues like these are being ignored by the actual list consolidator, but thanks for the attempt at constructive feedback anyway even though you don't seem to know that much about the issues.


Addressing another point:
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4.) Breakfrees are given out by the combat logs, which are attainable, lucks are currently not and there has been no word on when they will be available in base. If you want them so badly go buy a few trays of 20 and stockpile them in your isnp storages.

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I WAS doing that for a while... 100 lucks and 100 BF's per bin. Took me a whole hour (accros 3 to 5 SG's in total?) b/c of slow loading. I literally came back the next week and they were all gone in atleast one of the SG. Eventually I just gave up entirely.

 

Posted

_Ilr_'s exploit is essentially this:

You're a level 50 /SR scrapper, and you want to beat up people in bloody bay. Get yourself killed, hosp to base, pop elude, and zone in.

The elude effects are still there waiting for you when you zone in.

Now, you could still do the same thing from the regular zone entrance, but with bases you can essentially pop up anywhere in the zone, sans 30-45 seconds of your buff due to zoning and the PvP countdown.

 

Posted

That's right... players can basically die, and then Rez and return immediately with Full Health at the exact point they died, Teri-9 Buffs, and pocket full of Teir2/Teir3 Insps if they want to. And they can repeat it as many times as they want with barely any load-time penalties that going through the Zone entrances carries...

(I won't even go into the the kinds of things this allowed "Base Campers" to pull off)

 

Posted

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why issues like these are being ignored by the actual list consolidator, but thanks for the attempt at constructive feedback anyway even though you don't seem to know that much about the issues.

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Look brother we are just trying to put this in a format so we can get ALL OF OUR issues raised (including yours) Mad has done NO SUCH thing as Ignore your post. You try to cluge all this input from many diff threads in a single day. Its not easy man. No one is paying Mad to do this------hes doing it because he cares about the bases.

Your issues are just as important as anyone elses.....so please dont presume that he is "ignoring" you. It just wasnt easy finding all the info. Stuff gets missed......... Thats why we are doing this draft so you guys that dont find your stuff in there can request to ADD your point in.


ON THAT TOPIC: CAN WE DO THIS: For disagreements........Mad, can you write POINT: blah blah COUNTERPOINT: Blah blah

That way both parties are happy in the description.

View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com

 

Posted

well on the exploit theres really no way at all to fix that, short of redesigning the power completely...that i know of anyway. you cant make powers simply go away once you enter a zone..you can grant powers in a zone Ex: RWZ debt protection, but not the other way around.

"You, dear sir, are a legend. "- nelly. "PIE DOESN'T HAVE TENTACLES!"
Bladewing Draconian lvl 30 KAT/SR scrapper
DarkNinjutsu lvl 50 DM/REG scrapper
Dajoji Hino lvl 50 elm/ela scrapper
Bloody Byakko lvl 20 claws/sr scrapper

 

Posted

Can you "go to Base" in a PvP Arena or a mission with a specifically assigned death penalty(IE: JAILS)? ...hell no you can't. So why allow it in PvP Zones?


PS: thanks MCG for clearing that up. I apologize for assuming these came from just the recent sanctioned/Consolidated lists of Bugs, Issues, and Suggestions. If I'd known my actual list of imbalances and stuff didn't belong in the Suggestions thread, I would have posted it somewhere else. But again... Ex kinda dumped everything instead of making URL's for us to Follow to the proper threads

 

Posted

well Ex did lock the main thread when there was onle ONE consolidated thread in existance...since then we got a few more

"You, dear sir, are a legend. "- nelly. "PIE DOESN'T HAVE TENTACLES!"
Bladewing Draconian lvl 30 KAT/SR scrapper
DarkNinjutsu lvl 50 DM/REG scrapper
Dajoji Hino lvl 50 elm/ela scrapper
Bloody Byakko lvl 20 claws/sr scrapper

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]

PS: thanks MCG for clearing that up. I apologize for assuming these came from just the recent sanctioned/Consolidated lists of Bugs, Issues, and Suggestions. If I'd known my actual list of imbalances and stuff didn't belong in the Suggestions thread, I would have posted it somewhere else. But again... Ex kinda dumped everything instead of making URL's for us to Follow to the proper threads

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I think the majority of it was we just were trying to hop on this and figure out how to proceed. It was just plain messy at first.

View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com

 

Posted

_Ilr_: the only way I see to mitigate the exploit you point (go to base, pop tier 9, zone back in) is by putting the zoning point from base elsewhere (so when exiting the base, you always land, say, in the middle of the ocean away from the fight). The problem is, of course, people camping THAT spot.

30-sec countdown when zoning from base should apply too if it isn't there already. I thought it was.

And chill out. You have a bit of an attitude going here and it doesn't help.

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Posted

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Costs were balanced for a 75 player SG, but most groups are only 75 CHARACTERS, not players, so costs are too high for "full" groups. (This is a flaw in recognizing how players utilize SG Rosters and Alts. Perhaps the solution is not to change costs, but to fix the rosters?)

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Not to drudge up this old horse again, but changing the cap from 75 characters to 75 accounts will do little if anything at all for small and medium sized groups. IMO the cost issue is more a direct result of these parts:

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A smaller group isn't running up against the roster problem, though.
Maybe that's where the bullet point wasn't clear. This isn't so much a general cost issue, it's a problem with the things like the Fusion Generator badge which were balanced as "for a group of 75 it's only 10 kills per person". I'll rephrase it to focus just on top-end stuff.

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There is no tangible benefit to supergroups working as a group. Such as bonuses teaming with your SG.

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As mentioned in the threads about this (IIRC you were the one who suggested it), there should be a bonus for teaming with your SG mates.

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I think you're referenceing the SG Mission thread. In that case, I wrote it more to say "SG Missions shouldn't require SG Teams, but should reward them when they're used." The bullet point is simply a generalization of that. People have often said SGs are just glorified chatrooms.

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Were members able to still earn prestige without having to worry about a loss to influence gain, SG/VG prestige earnings would be a lot less of a headache.

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yeah, but somehow I doubt the Devs would rethink that whole system at this point. I'll make mention of it, though.

 

Posted

Excellent work Opie!

 

Posted

gonna be brief, I see a lot of posts to catch up on....

on kicks...[ QUOTE ]
Those would benefit from being slightly longer and without a Details link (if Ex is going to be taking this list to the devs, I don't think she's going to be able to click a link on a piece of printed paper).

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I rephrased them. I'm gonna leave the details link for now (proof, reproducability, whatever) but make it clear to Ex Libris they're not essential like the tangent discussions are.

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To avoid hoarding (which the devs don't want) this item should be limited to one per base (so a single SG can keep, say, 50 recipes and 100 invention salvage in their base).

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That's the type of situation of a specific solution detail that's not terribly important to solving the problem. I'm trying to keep such details out of the summary unless they illustrate how the solution would help.
It's better to just leave the problem and let the Devs decide how to balance the amount of storage space. (we have the Test Server to say "30 recipes per 150k bin will lead to hording you need to make this 1-per-plot instead.")
I'd hate to see a Dev get caught up on a non-essential piece like 1-per-base and have that complicate or delay a possible solution.




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The way it's set right now, nobody will complain about having to do a lot of work because they really really want the combat logs, it's just an extra.

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It's still an issue people raise. Again, I'll let the Devs decide how to address it. Maybe they can make it more interesting without crossing that line to essential and better-then-the-AutoDoc.



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How can base editing be "tiered" to allow different amounts of access to different ranks?

[/ QUOTE ]Or simply, "this room can be edited by Leaders only. This room can be edited by Members and up". Attach the edit permission to the room itself.

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yeah, that would address the issue and allow different amounts of access to different ranks. Again, Dev decision. The place to debate the merits of each setup is really in the tangent thread for the base editor.


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# Total loss of Personal Items upon deletion. This is a big factor in the previous problem of not enough people being trusted to edit the base.

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This was made to avoid someone crafting the AutoDoc (or other unlockable items) in a big SG, then joining a small SG without the requirements and dropping it there. Harsh? Sure. But that's the reason.

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Nope, talking about the problem that if I remove the AutoDoc from my base it evaporates and I need to re-craft it. Not about deleting things from Personal *Inventory*. Seems the original point may be unclear.



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this suggestion

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Like other suggestions, that should file in the Base Items We'd Like To See thread, and not in a generalized summary thread. This summary list is to help call attention to that other thread. (This keeps from either bloating the list with minutiae, or having to make an evaluation of whether each suggested item is worth listing.)
I'll tweak the category list from "grass" to "outdoor" though, so I'm not accused of totally ignoring ideas.

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Add one word:
* Placement of decorative items (including Trim) in doorway squares

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Assuming they don't make other types of items to place there, such as actual doors.

 

Posted

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(I'm more than Happy to Repost it if you honestly overlooked it somehow)

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yeah, I've never seen this list before. Sorry bout that. (and to share blame, 2 people PM'd me and asked how they can help and I suggested they scour the recent posts for what I missed.)

[ QUOTE ][*]"Going to Hospital" in a PvP Zone... allows multiple Teir-9, INSP, and Buff exploits. FIX 1ST PLZ

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ooooh, that's a new one. Are you saying going to your base acts different than stepping outside a PVP zone to the city zone? (If city zones have the same problem then it's not really a base problem, it's a PVP problem.) I'm not sure how to phrase this as a base problem.

as for "fix 1st", the summary list has no priority other than Bug/Flaw/Wish. and this would certainly sound like a bug. I can't start playing favorites.

[ QUOTE ][*]Item of Power: Mez Protection -- Way way overpowered. Plz tone it down before allowing CoP again

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I'd hope that's already obvious. or that we'd at least throw fits when it's on Test. (if it's ever returning.) but good catch, worth going on record here.

[ QUOTE ][*]We don't need Base-Raiding while PvP's still so Unbalanced, just fix the CoP for PvE.

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A) the COP *is* a PVE challenge.
B) when it was live, it didn't open up the SRS yet.
so C) this is more of a PVP balance problem, and I don't really want to go down that tangent here since we have PVP boards for it. (SG Stuff doesn't have another home.)
I'll fit in some mention, though...

[ QUOTE ][*]Track "Damage-Mitigation"... Healing shouldn't be the only Metric used to gain an Insp store!!

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um... Snow_Globe, you're the master of the Badge Issues thread. Want to take that one into your realm?


[ QUOTE ][*]where's the NEXT upgrade to the Medi-Doc store? LUCKS & BREAKFREES are more necessary 30+ game!

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Breaks are in the Combat Log. As for needing upgrades to *that*, already mentioned.

[ QUOTE ][*]Too much Base Invention JUNK, no reason for there to be that many different kinds of Salvage

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You want them to spend coding time removing something that's not bugged? The base salvage system is nowhere near as complex or nitpicky as the Invention salvage system. I'm not understanding your problem here.

[ QUOTE ][*]needed: Coalition access to Storage or Cross-Coalition "community bins".

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I hate to say "never going to happen" but... well... never going to happen. You're not going to find a SG that places a storage bin and leaves access to it dictated by who the *other* SG invites/promotes. We have enough ways to grief a SG thru storage already.
But, my personal take aside, this too much of a specific item request to put in a summary post. Please take it to the Items We'd Like To See thread, or the Storage tangent thread.


on your Empowerment request... again, bit too specific, but you raise a good example of how Empowerment doesn't do a lot that's unique and interesting. It's mostly mimicking a partial Rugged effect.
Lemme start an Empowerment tangent thread. take that there, please.

Tangent threads are a good thing - they're a place for a Dev to focus on a discussion that would probably be burried if we had conversations on all the larger topics stepping all over each other in a single thread.

 

Posted

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_Ilr_'s exploit is essentially this:

You're a level 50 /SR scrapper, and you want to beat up people in bloody bay. Get yourself killed, hosp to base, pop elude, and zone in.

The elude effects are still there waiting for you when you zone in.

Now, you could still do the same thing from the regular zone entrance, but with bases you can essentially pop up anywhere in the zone, sans 30-45 seconds of your buff due to zoning and the PvP countdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

That part I bolded is telling me this is totally possible from ANYWHERE. That could also include hopping inside a PVP zone mission, firing Elude there, and hopping back out to the zone - an even easier exploit since you don't have to die to use it.

This is a PVP issue, not a Base issue. Bases do not enable this exploit, nor do they make it any worse (eg, you still have a 30 second countdown timer upon zoning from your base).

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
A smaller group isn't running up against the roster problem, though. Maybe that's where the bullet point wasn't clear. This isn't so much a general cost issue, it's a problem with the things like the Fusion Generator badge which were balanced as "for a group of 75 it's only 10 kills per person". I'll rephrase it to focus just on top-end stuff.

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Ok, yes that makes much more sense when clarified to mean top tier items.

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I think you're referenceing the SG Mission thread. In that case, I wrote it more to say "SG Missions shouldn't require SG Teams, but should reward them when they're used." The bullet point is simply a generalization of that. People have often said SGs are just glorified chatrooms.

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And in most cases that's true. The points you have in here clarify the reasoning behind that. It should be important to note though there isn't much benefit to being part of a supergroup other than having a place with transports for many players.

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yeah, but somehow I doubt the Devs would rethink that whole system at this point. I'll make mention of it, though.

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It's easy to see what their intention was in developing the current system, but with the addition of the marketplace, it's making things worse in a lot of cases. Some IOs cost a whole lot more than SOs ever did, making less of an incentive for characters above 35 to play in SG mode. Just some food for thought there.

In any case, very nice work with this. Great work!

Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

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Posted

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[ QUOTE ][*]Track "Damage-Mitigation"... Healing shouldn't be the only Metric used to gain an Insp store!!

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um... Snow_Globe, you're the master of the Badge Issues thread. Want to take that one into your realm?

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While I'm personally "bleh" about the idea, I can/will add it to the next badge issues list.

Oh, and to make my life interesting, I have made a "Base Issues Tangent thread: Plot costs."

In that thread, I have proposed a set of public plots (cheaper upgrade cost, more expensive upkeep, serious restrictions on some items allow inside, with a "open door" policy) that should somewhat pacify the RP/Pure-PVE Base crowd.



Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

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That part I bolded is telling me this is totally possible from ANYWHERE. That could also include hopping inside a PVP zone mission, firing Elude there, and hopping back out to the zone - an even easier exploit since you don't have to die to use it.

This is a PVP issue, not a Base issue. Bases do not enable this exploit, nor do they make it any worse (eg, you still have a 30 second countdown timer upon zoning from your base).

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Ahh, but can you leave the PvP mission a matter of seconds later with a full tray of Inspirations, Teir-9 Melee Buff, and Forge/Clarity/AB/etc ?, ...and for that Matter, can you even get that mission if you and your "2nd Box" are both well beyond the level minimum to take a timed mission there? *taps side of forehead* And unlike taking a mission there, the Base-hosp exploit doesn't require its users to leave the front steps of the other faction's "Fort".



I appreciate the thoughtful response on the rest.
Upon re-examination, I'd reckon I have to agree with most-all of the reasoning in your response.

 

Posted

Nice list MS. theres a couple things i would like to see as well. A monthly update of comic book covers. While in base construction mode If there could be a drop box for teleporters, salvage bins etc.. (would make it so much more easier). I have mentioned like others on what you listed and like the others i can't wait to see it implented.

 

Posted

Here is the link to the document.

MAD-----This will allow you to continually edit as we get additional feedback. I have hyperlinks in it as well allowing you to move to the major subject headings in doc and go to the threads. Just hold the CNTL key over the link and you will see the hand appear.

Draft Base Construction Requests for Ex Libris

I added in the post I9 review stuff by Jagged as well.

Anything new you got on here after your initial draft post is not enclosed. Looks you are still discussing those items.

View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com

 

Posted

(thought I'd already said this, but it's not showing up, pardon me if I repeat myself.)


The additions to the list have slowed down. I think that's a sign it's about done.
Certainly the biggest stuff is on there, and there's always room for discussion later.


I think this was a worthwhile exercise.
Had Ex Libris let the initial thread run, we could have gathered this list from posts there, but it would not have been this easy.
Getting this list up-front should also help get more attention from the Devs than if we did this as the 347th post of the other thread.
This list has also done a good job highlighting existing threads, and showing where new ones had to be made, that should help organize the dicussion.


I thank you all for your help assembling this. I look forward to debating the individual points in the tangent threads.

 

Posted

Wow super job Mad! That must have taken a ton of work to assemble. I salute you and all the other people who helped you!

I guess my only suggestion is the separation of "missing graphic effects on defense items" and the field items not working. In my experience, the two go hand in hand. For instance, the pain field does not animate because it's not working. So it just seems strange to separate them out. Just a nit pick I guess.

Again, great job!

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Posted

All in all great work, I really hope they get a chance to read it all. I can imagine the development room now.....

Posi: GOOD LORD guys look at this list....sigh
BSB: Shudders
Posi: OK first thing we need is a team of monkeys. I want the Dumb monkey working the SG bugs, flaws, wishes----
I want the Blind Money working the Base decoration bugs, and bring me a vet reward gnome to lead the team.
Posi: Next lets build a jail to put them in so they can begin coding all these changes.............to build the jail we will use a glitch........which is a bug...........but it will end up satisfying a wish.
Statesman: walks in......looks around, shakes head..........walks out.

I dont envy the dev or the coding team on this. I hope they can digest this and come up with a good solution for many of these things.

All the imagination on this board is incredible. If we even get 1/2 of some of these things I will be very appreciative. Thanks for all your hard work, and I want to Mad Scientist for the time and effort he has put into this.

View the story of W.A.R.F.A.C.E. and Septimus Bane here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6785073/1/Meus_Profiteor#
my email chrismfears99@yahoo.com

 

Posted

Not sure if it is a base building or usage bug, but you always seem to zone in at one of the cardinal points of the teleport circle (i.e. due north, east, south or west of it, though the last two seem to be the most popular).

Some decorative items have a small enough footprint that they can be place on those spots (e.g. the columns made of four huge wooden logs bound together by iron bands).

Players who zone in end up stuck inside those objects, unable to move but also unable to zone out again.


Nadira