[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the things that PvPers say a lot is that there's no challenge in PvE. Well that's because you don't look for challenge. Can you solo a TF, including the AV at the end? Can you solo a Giant Monster? Those things can be done. And it's a hell of a lot harder than taking some pimped out build into PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really. I think most PvPers like to PvP because it is a challenge to face a thinking opponent.
AV's, Giant Monsters, etc are 'hard' not because they are 'challenging' but because they have huge amounts of HP or damage or regen. They are still scripted and will perform the same way each time. A human opponent on the other hand will not. Therein lies the challenge and fun and excitement of PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my experience, mindless fotm/nub-only PvPers are tediously predictable.
[/ QUOTE ]
In what way?
[/ QUOTE ]
His post makes sense now, I fixed it.
[/ QUOTE ]
/agreed. You did fix it. But let's not kid ourselves. That's a significant portion of the PvP population. I like to play with friends because then you're likely to get tactics you don't see all the time (even if they aren't the most effective).
As an aside, one of the most tense, challenging PvP games I've played is the Pokemon Colloseum games. One of the things I find EXTREMELY sad about CoX is that Pokemon, a game presumably for kids, has MUCH more balanced PvP than anything you find in CoX and strangely enough has just as many valid combinations.
That's why when you "hardcore" PvPers write those joke posts about Pokemon, I can't help but lol a bit. Snorlax is uber yo! 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
There ya go, drawing your own conclusions again. Kettle, this is pot, over. What we're arguing about here is people's opinions as to why they flooded RV, and you seem to think you are completely in tune with all 6k of their opinions.. which is "they attended the event because of a free 40 and didn't give a [censored] about the PvP."
But all of this is beside the point.
This thread isn't ABOUT how many PvE'rs:PvP'ers there are (though, I believe I showed an expample of a substantial PvP community in my original post), I'm sure the PvE'rs dwarf PvP'ers count, but to say there isn't a substantial PvP community by basing it on how many people happen to PvP at a random time on a random server, and that therefore working to make PvP better, even to fix bugs is flawed, and that'd undeniable.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And you didn't answer my question. If it had been stated that this was just a grand test of pvp on the TEST server without the lvl 40 insta level and free enhancements would you have seen those 30 instances?
I'll ask it in another way. If the reason we saw those huge instances was because of the PVP and not the insta-lvl 40, how come TEST isn't like that right now? I mean the only change is that there isn't an insta-lvl 40, but the PVP still remains on TEST. So what's the difference Manchuwook? I'm asking you honestly. If the pvp was the reason that event was so popular why isn't TEST like that RIGHT NOW?
Could it be that those peeps in the 30 instances found out how imablanced really is and that's why regular TEST isn't like that? Well I would expect there to be at least 5 instances if that were the case right? Is that how TEST is RIGHT NOW though? If not, then why is that? And which was more important to people, the PVP or the insta-lvl 40? Cause that insta lvl 40 code is the only thing missing on TEST right now.
[/ QUOTE ]
How about this question "Would your view of world politics change if you were of a different gender?". Ehh, who knows. What we do know is what happened during the event that took place. You can cast doubt on the interpretation of that data if you wish, but what happened is fact. Is test not as popular because of this code being removed or because there is no event going on? I don't know. Is it because there is no new PvP zone to try out? I don't know.
From the testimony that I have heard many people enjoyed that they could create a toon and try out PvP. They had a good time and they never PvP. A big part of it is that it didn't take them 300hours to level up the toon to go PvP. Also, if their first creation was a dud they could create another idea and try that out. Now given that is a small sample size so you can apply it to a group.
In the cases that I mentioned above people enjoyed the event for many reasons:
- Chance to test out character concepts
- Lots of people in a PvP zone to play against
- A new zone to try out
As a feature is improved more people will start to utilize that feature. Doesn't that make sense?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. But I still am skeptical. They were there to test out RV. It would have not been possible if they were not insta lvled to 40. How they hell would they have been able to test it out. Also realize at the time RV was the first new zone for heroes in quite a long time. Which explains for a month after RV went live that the zone was hopping. Then as the others it slowly thined out. (Though that might be because RV has so MANY broken mechanics).
I still say the PVP was secondary. Getting to test out any number of builds without having to lvl them all the way was more the main draw. That and the fact that this was a new zone to actually test.
Also I just find it funny that a zone that lets you use ALL your powers (a common argument from non-pvp centric folk) has not really seen 100 people at any time since after the few weeks when I7 went live.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
But all of this is beside the point.
This thread isn't ABOUT how many PvE'rs:PvP'ers there are (though, I believe I showed an expample of a substantial PvP community in my original post), I'm sure the PvE'rs dwarf PvP'ers count, but to say there isn't a substantial PvP community by basing it on how many people happen to PvP at a random time on a random server, and that therefore working to make PvP better, even to fix bugs is flawed, and that'd undeniable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what I actually meant to type at the end of that >.>
[ QUOTE ]
But all of this is beside the point.
This thread isn't ABOUT how many PvE'rs:PvP'ers there are (though, I believe I showed an expample of a substantial PvP community in my original post), I'm sure the PvE'rs dwarf PvP'ers count, but to say there isn't a substantial PvP community by basing it on how many people happen to PvP at a random time on a random server, and that therefore working to make PvP better, even to fix bugs is flawed, and that'd undeniable.
[/ QUOTE ]
PVP needs fixes. I would say they should roll out fixes (and PVE content) on a rolling basis. None of this sticking it all in this one giant issue stuff. It slows down development.
It would also make it easier to do pvp fixes and add pve content.
EX: the vet rewards did not need a whole issue (and I argue that they are slowing down I8's release). They could have been released after or before I8's other items in a mini-patch. Same thing with PVP fixes.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
The time it took to RV to get to one instance the rest of the test server was nearly empty. I7 was like a day from when it was going live (unknown to us all).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But all of this is beside the point.
This thread isn't ABOUT how many PvE'rs:PvP'ers there are (though, I believe I showed an expample of a substantial PvP community in my original post), I'm sure the PvE'rs dwarf PvP'ers count, but to say there isn't a substantial PvP community by basing it on how many people happen to PvP at a random time on a random server, and that therefore working to make PvP better, even to fix bugs is flawed, and that'd undeniable.
[/ QUOTE ]
PVP needs fixes. I would say they should roll out fixes (and PVE content) on a rolling basis. None of this sticking it all in this one giant issue stuff. It slows down development.
It would also make it easier to do pvp fixes and add pve content.
EX: the vet rewards did not need a whole issue (and I argue that they are slowing down I8's release). They could have been released after or before I8's other items in a mini-patch. Same thing with PVP fixes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly, and how is fixing bugs wasted development time, that's what this whole "nobody pvp's so delte this thred and go die vpvpers lalwz" argument started over.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the things that PvPers say a lot is that there's no challenge in PvE. Well that's because you don't look for challenge. Can you solo a TF, including the AV at the end? Can you solo a Giant Monster? Those things can be done. And it's a hell of a lot harder than taking some pimped out build into PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really. I think most PvPers like to PvP because it is a challenge to face a thinking opponent.
AV's, Giant Monsters, etc are 'hard' not because they are 'challenging' but because they have huge amounts of HP or damage or regen. They are still scripted and will perform the same way each time. A human opponent on the other hand will not. Therein lies the challenge and fun and excitement of PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my experience, mindless fotm/nub-only PvPers are tediously predictable.
[/ QUOTE ]
In what way?
[/ QUOTE ]
His post makes sense now, I fixed it.
[/ QUOTE ]
/agreed. You did fix it. But let's not kid ourselves. That's a significant portion of the PvP population. I like to play with friends because then you're likely to get tactics you don't see all the time (even if they aren't the most effective).
As an aside, one of the most tense, challenging PvP games I've played is the Pokemon Colloseum games. One of the things I find EXTREMELY sad about CoX is that Pokemon, a game presumably for kids, has MUCH more balanced PvP than anything you find in CoX and strangely enough has just as many valid combinations.
That's why when you "hardcore" PvPers write those joke posts about Pokemon, I can't help but lol a bit. Snorlax is uber yo!
[/ QUOTE ]
Balance will never be found in this game. They should FIRST focus on arena, base raids, etc. Fixing the mechanics. Then try to get to balance later. I would say after I9's inventions. Trying to get balance now while that potentially pvp game breaking additon is right around the corner would be developer time managment suicide.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Near the end of the event, it ended up with 30 heroes camping 5 villains in the base. I'm sure that had alot to do with souring the RV experience for Live... So did the pillbox swapping and folks getting virtiolic when hunting their badges. This is in addition, mind you, to the HvV imbalances, the exploits, base camping, droning, and all the other little flaws that aren't going to be approached by Crptic in time.. but according to Lighthouse, definitely not SOON(tm).
[ QUOTE ]
The time it took to RV to get to one instance the rest of the test server was nearly empty. I7 was like a day from when it was going live (unknown to us all).
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. But I think it shows that the zones the way they are constructed also need work. Hell the pill box farming and truces in that zone make baby jesus cry. 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
Balance will never be found in this game. They should FIRST focus on arena, base raids, etc. Fixing the mechanics. Then try to get to balance later. I would say after I9's inventions. Trying to get balance now while that potentially pvp game breaking additon is right around the corner would be developer time managment suicide.
[/ QUOTE ]
The balance we're talking about in this thread isn't an empath versus a ice/em blaster 1v1, no it's about balance between sets in the same archetype that should serve essentially the same purpose, but do not (see, tanker attack sets)
But, I doubt anybody here READ my post.
EDIT:
And if people would read the posts before Lighthouse posts or some of the posts after that, fixing bugs it the number one thing wanted by this (see the roughly 10 times I wrote fix the arena bugs or w/e)
[ QUOTE ]
Near the end of the event, it ended up with 30 heroes camping 5 villains in the base. I'm sure that had alot to do with souring the RV experience for Live... So did the pillbox swapping and folks getting virtiolic when hunting their badges. This is in addition, mind you, to the HvV imbalances, the exploits, base camping, droning, and all the other little flaws that aren't going to be approached by Crptic in time.. but according to Lighthouse, definitely not SOON(tm).
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. See my other post. LOL.
I think its also that once the badge hunters got their badges and noticed all the crap you mentioned above the left. Probably the same thing would have happened on test regardless of the insta lvl 40 if they let the event go on on there for any length of time.
Villans needs some buffs desperately. Especially the PPPs.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Well CoX is never going to be balanced 1vs1. That would be almost impossible to do.
But the imbalances between Heroes and Villains is something that can be fixed and should be. Specifically the imbalance between Epic Pools and Patron Pools.
I don't see how balancing kills PvE enjoyment either, wouldn't it be great to finally team with an archery blaster or something else that's 'gimp' in PvE...
That's still beyond the point though, all I want right now is a few arena fixes that are a year overdue.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Balance will never be found in this game. They should FIRST focus on arena, base raids, etc. Fixing the mechanics. Then try to get to balance later. I would say after I9's inventions. Trying to get balance now while that potentially pvp game breaking additon is right around the corner would be developer time managment suicide.
[/ QUOTE ]
The balance we're talking about in this thread isn't an empath versus a ice/em blaster 1v1, no it's about balance between sets in the same archetype that should serve essentially the same purpose, but do not (see, tanker attack sets)
But, I doubt anybody here READ my post.
EDIT:
And if people would read the posts before Lighthouse posts or some of the posts after that, fixing bugs it the number one thing wanted by this (see the roughly 10 times I wrote fix the arena bugs or w/e)
[/ QUOTE ]
True. But again balancing should come last and I seriously believe in a game this diverse/complex you can never achieve it. The bug fixes (such as the arena fixes) should come first.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
RREEEAAAAR - Arena Fix Good FIRE BAAAD!!
Seriously, you can't base camp in the Arena.. Problem solved there. 
Definitely priority #1 should be Arena.. 'specially since the shiney new ones in Pocket D have been added.
I think balance within ATs is achievable to a decent degree, see my post.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how balancing kills PvE enjoyment either, wouldn't it be great to finally team with an archery blaster or something else that's 'gimp' in PvE...
That's still beyond the point though, all I want right now is a few arena fixes that are a year overdue.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't. But the fear is that the DEVs won't make that gimp archery blaster great or even acceptable. Its that they will gimp everyone else. And based on the DEVs past actions that's not an unreasonable fear. They usually make changes that require a scapel, with a sledgehammer.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
To achieve balance they must make toons different enough so that it doesnt just come down to burst damage which is how the PVP in this game works currently.
[/ QUOTE ]
The begining to my section on balance. A well written response by BigNord
[ QUOTE ]
I think balance within ATs is achievable to a decent degree, see my post.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen your post and I still don't have faith that THIS DEV team can do it. No offense to the DEVs, are think they are the most amazing group of programmers, artists and the like that I have ever seen. But their lack of PVP experience shows.
And their past changes (and they way there were done) do not give me much faith.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
*Add this to the quote:
The place to start would be tanks in my opinion, take a look at the tank sets in general. All the Defensive sets work a little differently but yet all have their strengths and weaknesses and can be made viable in PVP with little or no tweaking at this point..in essence they have achieved relative balance although clearly they are very different in the way they function.
Now look at the offensive side of tanks and this is where the devs just dont get it..with tanks there is really only 1 PVP set and its EM, the massive burst damage in a less resisted type + heavy Stuns = victory. The other sets lag very far behind in some cases they are completly non existent because they suck so friggen bad when compared to energy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To achieve balance they must make toons different enough so that it doesnt just come down to burst damage which is how the PVP in this game works currently.
[/ QUOTE ]
The begining to my section on balance. A well written response by BigNord
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. Good point. But can this DEV team with as little PVP experience as it seems they have, actually do it? You have more faith than I do.
EDIT: Hell they still haven't been able to get base raids working in over a YEAR!
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think balance within ATs is achievable to a decent degree, see my post.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen your post and I still don't have faith that THIS DEV team can do it. No offense to the DEVs, are think they are the most amazing group of programmers, artists and the like that I have ever seen. But their lack of PVP experience shows.
And their past changes (and they way there were done) do not give me much faith.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, I see your point. But another point of this thread is to help them realize what they're doing wrong.
Also you have to realize, a major PvP event that's sponsored by cryptic will pull out FAR more PvPers than anything else in the game... That ensures there will be people to fight, on live, PvP'ers have to PvE to GET to 40, on test they did not. I have to spend more time PvE'ing than I do PvP'ing because I like to keep my options when it comes to characters and builds open in PvP, that is why saying (I like to speak in stupidness, so don't take this offensively) "LOLZ LETZ SEES HOW MANEE PPLZ B IN TEH RV RIGH NOW AND THEN COMPAR IT 2 PEOPLE PVEING AND PRBBLY COWNT LVL 2'S TOO!!1111oneFOURTYYrrrr!@~"