The Anti-PUG: The 10 Commandments of Good Teaming
By
abnormal_joe,
Posted on: 2006-10-11 14:20 in Player Guides
Eh...
The one thing I can agree with without question is the "core" of a team. If you and one or two others get used to how you play, you can add others and the team is generally more effective - or the mistakes by others have less impact.
FOTM builds are "FOTM" because they're *effective.* And people stumble on them without PLing, reading guides or the like. I don't dismiss people using certain powersets - an effective Ice/Energy is an effective Ice/Energy, and I'd rather have them than an Empath who does nothing but fire off Healing Aura and follow the team around, or a Kinetic who has no idea how to use Repel but has it on anyway.
"Ideal" team makeups? They change by missions. Get what you need - and think more in line of what's needed to complete the mission, not some mythical powerset lineup. (Or just ask the Repeat Offenders - Pinball Wizards, FFoF and the like - how many tanks *they* need.)
Brutes are not tanks. They do not serve the same purpose. The "tanking" role is split between them and MMs usually.
Scrappers don't need to be a "second line of defense." If the Controller's doing their thing, the Scrapper watching them will be bored. The big thing with Scrappers is to be sure they don't get into "Scrapperlock."
Not all Controllers are Stormies. Very few, in fact. Unless you'd like to tell my Earth/FF, Grav/Kin, Fire/Rad, Ill/Emp or the like how to use their storms...
Good guide with some good points in it. I agree with and have had similar experiences. About Flavor of the month sets, I agree with you and Bill. I don't think all of those sets are dominated by idiots that are trying to PL and cheat their way thru. However prudence is called for and I can say while I don't think all Fire/Kin controllers are 'Those People' I am wary of inviting them lately and will usually pick a dfferent type of contrller. Have i been influenced adversely? Maybe.
Actual Location: Inside the system itself.
"When the most exciting thing about Mace is AceMace's avatar, then it's time to get realistic."
Shield Guide
The only thing anyone in this game is "supposed to be doing" is having fun. Everything else is negotiable. -Jet Boy
Teaming effectively is my favorite aspect of this game as well! Thanks for making a guide.
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One sign of an unworthy teammate is the use of "Leet." If a person can't be bothered to speak properly to his teammates, why would he exert effort toward mastery of the game or helping you?
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I, personally, dislike l33t as well. I would point out, however, that not all who speak leet are poor CoH players. I have teamed with some who have poorly chosen names in all caps and use leet with great abandon, who also could tank the heck out of a spawn or scrap the living daylights out of enemies and so on. Do not judge a book by its cover.
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Another sign is a "flavor of the month" set of powers. You don't want someone who seeks out cheap powersets like Energy Melee, but the one who likes to find unorthodox ways to counter those powers.
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I too am a huge fan of the road less traveled. After all, my only 50 is an Earth/Sonic controller. That said, many of my most effective teammates have been spines/regen scrappers, or Fire/Kin controllers, or empathy/you name it defenders, and so on.
An aside, I prefer to call empaths empaths, and not healers. And I'm not a big fan of assuming defenders should "heal". Some should, sure, but some shouldn't.
Anyway, I would recommend people pick teammates because they are good teammates, not because they pick commonly seen powersets.
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3. They admit fault when something goes wrong. Perhaps the most reassuring thing one can say to one's team is "my bad."
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Amazing how people who admit to failure prevent lots of bickering. In almost every case where I or a teammate said "my bad" the resulting posts were "no problem" and so on. Really a classy manuever and one that promotes team peace.
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10. They have incredible fun!
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*applause*
As far as the lengthy way you suggest growing a team, I think that sounds great. However, I often have limited time when I'm on and want to jump into a big team for the excitement. I have found that this works in many circumstances, especially at higher levels as players are more comfortable and knowledgeable about the capabilities. If the team is horrible, I simply excuse myself. If it's good, well... it's good... and off to work we go.
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Scrapper: More versatile than the tanker, a team scrapper acts first and foremost as a second line of defense.
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In my experience the scrapper's main function is of offense rather than defense. My scrappers can hold some aggro when needed, but their ability to dish out punishment easily outshines their defense.
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Controller: You stifle incoming fire and help your teammates. You use your storms and repels to maneuver the enemy into tight little groups to make the blasters' job easier.
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Of course, you also lock down enemies in one place so they're stuck for easy arrests and buff/debuff as well. Not all controllers have storms or knockback abilities.
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Ideal team composition -- you will no doubt develop your own combos. These are, I hope, helpful rules of thumb.
Heroes: One tanker, one scrapper, one controller, blasters and defenders.
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This is my rule of thumb too. The interesting thing is, however, how well teams with unusual combinations can do. I did the Eden trial with 1 controller, 1 defender, 2 scrappers, and 4 blasters. We did wonderfully. I've done tf's with 5 controllers, a war shade, and a couple of scrappers. A team of eight defenders can do astonishing things.
Thanks for the guide! Any thoughts on Khelds?
It may seem weird but this part
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Another sign is a "flavor of the month" set of powers. You don't want someone who seeks out cheap powersets like Energy Melee, but the one who likes to find unorthodox ways to counter those powers. (Incidentally, Intimidate does something wonderful to the Aim/Buildup combo.)
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I had a problem with. Mainly because they might have chosen that powerset because they like it, they may never frequent the boards and see that Fire/Kin or Ill/rad or any of the other combos are considered "teh uber". I know I personally dont look in the AT forums until after I made a charecter to get some idea on how his/her powers are.
Good post otherwise.
The problem with Khelds is it's very nearly impossible to pigeon hole them. Two, equal level Peacebringers could be built completely different. Team composition can chage how they opperate as well.
About the best rule of tumb for khelds is they can sub/support the other ATs.
PB's are Blaster/Tanker/Scrappers and can (maybe) act as a backup healer with some light crowd control.
WS's are Blaster/Tanker/Controller.
Pinnacle
Heroes
When in danger, or in doubt; Run in circles, scream and shout.
"About Flavor of the month sets, I agree with you and Bill. I don't think all of those sets are dominated by idiots that are trying to PL and cheat their way..." -- Mohlverine
"...not all who speak leet are poor CoH players." -- Hotbutteredsoul.
"... they might have chosen that powerset because they like it..." -- Muad-dib
I certainly don't want to pigeonhole everyone, I'm simply identifying red flags. If it has feathers it's not necessarily a duck. But when it has webbed feet, a green glossy head and quacks then you should presume it's a duck.
"...just ask the Repeat Offenders - Pinball Wizards, FFoF and the like - how many tanks *they* need... Brutes are not tanks... not all Controllers are Stormies. Very few, in fact." -- Memphis_Bill
Bill, teaming's a very broad topic. I'm not sure it's possible to create a one-sentence summary of, say, a controller's function in a group that will satisfy everyone. And going into more detail is simply outside the subject.
"And I'm not a big fan of assuming defenders should 'heal.'" -- Hotbutteredsoul
Couldn't agree more. I used the "empath" designation here because I'm speaking specifically of a healer-scrapper combo. In my experience healing controllers/defenders go well with scrappers and Storm controllers/defenders team well with blasters.
"...If the team is horrible, I simply excuse myself."
I always feel a twinge of regret when I do. It feels like abandonment, especially when I can see so clearly what's going wrong. When I wrote the guide I had certain goals: improve the team experience generally, encourage the growth of solid teams and discourage the very worst aspects of the PUG. Hopefully with this guide we'll all need to excuse ourselves less often.
"In my experience the scrapper's main function is of offense rather than defense."
The scrapper's versatility means that more perhaps than any other AT, his function will change depending upon the team's composition.
"A team of eight defenders can do astonishing things."
Oh certainly! And a master player will make do wiith the team he has. But the guide's meant to give the relative newcomer a rule of thumb. Would it be responsible for me to recommend that new arrivals in Paragon City try to build an all-defender group?
"The problem with Khelds is it's very nearly impossible to pigeon hole them." -- Arashi
I omitted Khelds because the guide's written for relative newcomers who do not yet have access to Khelds. I hope someone with a fifty will find this guide old news and will find in it only encouragement to truly master the game.
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"...just ask the Repeat Offenders - Pinball Wizards, FFoF and the like - how many tanks *they* need... Brutes are not tanks... not all Controllers are Stormies. Very few, in fact." -- Memphis_Bill
Bill, teaming's a very broad topic. I'm not sure it's possible to create a one-sentence summary of, say, a controller's function in a group that will satisfy everyone. And going into more detail is simply outside the subject.
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I'd argue quite the opposite. Understanding what's possible *in general* by being given more information is far preferrable to, say, "Defender = Healer," an exceptionally frustrating mindset to run into. Or, as I think I pointed out, some comment about Controllers using storms. It is (IMHO) worse villainside, as people try to shoehorn COV ATs into COH molds.
Honestly, if I had to write brief, general descriptions of the ATs?
Heroside:
TANKER: The tanker's role is aggro management. They give up a degree of offense for high defense and hit points. They are here to get the attention of the enemy and focus it on themselves.
SCRAPPER: Melee damage and secondary aggro management. Along with blasters, their job is to eliminate mobs. Scrappers have status protection to go after problematic mobs before they cause problems for the rest of the team and eliminate them.
BLASTER - Ranged damge, some high melee damage and control. Blasters weaken or eliminate priority targets at range before they become a bigger threat, as well as (in most instances) large groups. Most have high Melee damage, but with no status protection this is not typically where a blaster will want to stay for long periods.
DEFENDER- Team defense, as the name implies, through buffing allies, reducing or eliminating status effects, and/or debuffing foes. Defenders can do a degree of ranged damage as well, but not as well as blasters (thus the secondary powerset) yet have access to the longest ranged snipes in the game (Moonbeam and Psi Lance.) Despite lower damage and defense for themselves, they can often bring a team to the damage and/or defense caps - or floor the same for the enemy.
CONTROLLERS - Direct the flow of the battle. They do have access to many of the same buffs and debuffs as Defenders, but this is not their primary purpose (nor do they typically perform as well, thus being secondary sets.) Controllers perform a sort of aggro management as well, holding off enemies, reducing numbers by temporarily removing them from a fight, and slowing or eliminating unexpected side aggro (such as patrols.)
Villainside takes a bit of thought, as well.
BRUTE: Not a tank, not a scrapper, the brute's called on for a degree of aggro management as well. Built for a sustained fight, but taken down more easily than a tank, its damage increases as the fight goes on. Highest *direct* HP villainside.
MASTERMIND - Where the Brute has the highest direct HP, the Mastermind has one of the lowest - yet indirectly, through its minions, the MM can also be said to have one of the highest. Through sacrificing and resummoning minions and creative minion control, the mastermind directs enemy aggro away from themselves and back to their pets. They also perform a degree of buffing and debuffing.
STALKER - While having much lower hit points than a Brute, a Stalker can have decent defenses - the sets being a pared down version of Scrapper defensive sets. Stalkers are sent in to rapidly reduce the threat of a LT, Boss, or other key mob by killing or severely wounding that mob, making it easier to eliminate. They can also "de-aggro" single mobs using Placate - though this will often turn the mob's attention to the stalker's teammates. While they can stand and scrap many times, it's best to think of them as a melee-range blaster, as they have few HP behind their defenses.
Corruptors - a Defender turned on its head. Geared towards ranged damage as well as team buffing/enemy debuffing. Pairs nicely with a Stalker to take out high-HP key mobs, as the Stalker's massive burst damage brings a mob quickly into the Corruptor's Scourge range.
Dominators - Where a Corruptor is "a defender turned on its head," the Dominator is - in an odd place. They have the capacity to help direct the battle much like a Controller, by holding, slowing, or otherwise affecting groups of enemies, but follow up with often close-range damage - without the HP to stay there. Where a Stalker or Brute relies on their defenses, the Dominator's defense is in their holds and debuffs.
... that, at least, is how I'd describe them. (Doms are odd to write about. I like them, but they're still odd.)
This is just a personal observation but I find players who invest heavily in thier primaries to be a bit more team oriented. Of course there are limits no pure healers or taunt bots for me thanks. I just find the team flows smoother if for example a controller focuses on locking down the mobs first and buffing debuffing second. A tank with well built shields is a better front line than a skranker. Just my two cents.
I as well applaud a well written guide. I tried to do something similar just for the defender powersets and getting it that short and concise proved to be beyond me. Kudos, lets hope it is read and adopted.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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This is just a personal observation but I find players who invest heavily in thier primaries to be a bit more team oriented.
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I find the exact opposite of this to be the case on the villains side of the game. Most of the team oriented powers are in the secondaries on villains. On villains the team oriented players tend to be the ones that generally have an even mix of primary and secondary powers.
One of the reasons why PUG Masterminds get a bad rap is that they tend to neglect their secondaries even though some of their buffs/debuffs are just as good if not better than the corruptor versions. In my opinion Masterminds get the most benefit from "team-oriented powers"...even if a power says "you cannot use this power on yourself" masterminds still benefit from those powers when then they solo because they improve best attack powers (their pets).
I have to agree with your take on mm my bots/dark has no attacks from his primary I figure I have enough to do laying down debuffs,keeping the pets on a short leash and positioning for heals. With all that going on who has time to fire a weany little plasma rifle?
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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This is just a personal observation but I find players who invest heavily in thier primaries to be a bit more team oriented.
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I find the exact opposite of this to be the case on the villains side of the game. Most of the team oriented powers are in the secondaries on villains.
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Well, except for dominators. *hugs his dominator*
Mamphis_Bill,
I like your summaries and I think our different appraisals can only help. Even so, your work seems to be more descriptive of what the AT's are rather than what they do. It's an obscure point, I know. I was writing about what a player should expect to be doing in a hypothetical eight-man team.
As an example, a defender or a corruptor solo will seem very similar, with firepower traded for superior buffs/debuffs. On their respective teams, a defender will concentrate upon his AoE buff/debuffs and healing, as his blasting will have less importance. A corruptor must in the same setting blaze away like a blaster.
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"...just ask the Repeat Offenders - Pinball Wizards, FFoF and the like - how many tanks *they* need... Brutes are not tanks... not all Controllers are Stormies. Very few, in fact." -- Memphis_Bill
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Did Sister Psyche and Manticore in a jiffy with no tanks in RO teams this weekend. Rarely ever have a tank on our teams. Manticore we had some Perfect Stormers, no stormers on Sister Psyche.
Cheers!
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This guide discusses perhaps the broadest but most rewarding topic in the game -- teaming effectively and mastering the large group in large scale combat.
A team of five or larger playing against the highest difficulty can earn the maximum XP per hour, but cannot survive at this lofty difficulty without tight discipline and solid tactical experience of your own and your colleagues' capabilities. Herein lies the greatest challenge of the City of Heroes games, one which in all modesty even your humble writer has yet to truly master after years of play.
For examples of how the large team goes wrong, you need only look at the threads regarding Pick-up groups or "PUGs." These groups are essentially armed mobs, each fighting their own battle, charging off alone, not communicating, filled with people who used cheats like "power-levelling" to advance their characters and care absolutely nothing for their teammates. They attack recklessly and call for healing. They bicker and squabble, blame everyone but themselves when things go wrong and disintegrate against any serious opposition. It's an ordeal to work with them. Don't. Whatever skill you bring will be squandered and they will resent your attempt to impose order.
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I must say I start disagreeing with you right here. PUGs can be armed mobs but they general only have that habit in the lower levels. In fact for the most part across the entire span of my only lvl 50's career the Armed Mob PUG is an extreme minority. PUGS are a joy to be a part of. Your comments show a lack of understanding and/or enjoyment for the versitile and malleable play style of a PUG. Not meaning to be disrespectful with the lack of understanding comment but you start off this "Guide" with denegrating what a plethora find extremely fun.
Yes everyone will deal with the PUG from hell every once and a while and while that team may stick in your memory more then your average pug. I have far more pugs in my memory that were WOW!!!!!! that was so awesome!!!!!
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One sign of an unworthy teammate is the use of "Leet." If a person can't be bothered to speak properly to his teammates, why would he exert effort toward mastery of the game or helping you? For example, avoid healers who use the curt and dismissive "kthxbi" instead of, "Alright. Thank you and see you soon." This leet-speaker cares -nothing- for you and probably won't be much of a healer. Slovenly language reflects a slovenly person. (This absolutely doesn't apply to those for whom English is a second language, but to those too lazy to use even one language properly.)
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I do not enjoy extreme of even alot of leet myself. I also think it tends to show a lack of character, culture and maturity. However to say that players who use leet do not care anything for you is ridiculous. Leet within the context of this game may or may not be in character for an rper. So are you saying "Hacker" based rp heros are not worthy of teaming with? Are you saying that common leet from a toon during the middle of a battle is an indication of unworthiness? It seems so. Well in my opinion this is a 'leet attitude that should be quashed.
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Another sign is a "flavor of the month" set of powers. You don't want someone who seeks out cheap powersets like Energy Melee, but the one who likes to find unorthodox ways to counter those powers. (Incidentally, Intimidate does something wonderful to the Aim/Buildup combo.)
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There is no flavor of the month set of powers... period! ok well maybe if the devs release a new powerset there is for at least a couple months but hey its a "NEW" powerset and everyone wants to see what it does.
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Moving on, how to build a potent team of large numbers? Frankly, it's a process. The demands are not demands of time in-game but of knowledge, self control and consideration for your colleagues. This guide will discuss these without covering specific tactics such as "draw" or "doorjam." A good team will discover these as they go.
The first step is to team with -one- other person who shares your idealistic interest in an effective team. This person, like you, distains cheap tricks like power-levelling or herding and seeks authentic mastery of the game. He also loves to work with others.
Moreover, this person has an AT/powerset that works well with yours. Fine "dynamic duo" examples include: Dominator-Stalker, Tanker-Blaster, Brute and Kinetics or Scrapper/Empath In each case here, the pair -must- work together to be truly effective, but the combination startles with its synergy and power.
How does this pair work together?
1. They attack as one, never allowing themselves to be separated. They check to see the other is ready to attack and is not drained of endurance or resting.
2. They watch each others' backs, guard each other against attackers, trade inspirations when needed, heal each other if able.
3. They admit fault when something goes wrong. Perhaps the most reassuring thing one can say to one's team is "my bad." This's the mark of a person secure in themselves yet ready to learn. The insecure seek to blame others, especially when something is their fault.
4. They dismiss the ego. If, say, one person has superior experience in Mayhem missions, the other does not feel threatened by playing the student.
5. They care about the team's well being, to the point of taking debt for it. They schedule their play-time together and even level together.
6. They compliment each other for work well done.
7. They control their tempers. When they must offer correction, they do so as gently as they can. They do not resent correction kindly offered. They remember this is a game.
8. They learn how to use their powers -in coordination- to best effect.
9. They consider defeat a chance to refine their methods, not a cue to disband the team.
10. They have incredible fun! Even they are amazed by their effectiveness and the way they can almost read each others' minds. They love working with their friends.
Here is a portrait of a healthy partnership. After a mere handful of missions, this duo is ready to take on a third.
A triad brings new challenges. The newcomer will promptly perceive the tightly knit relationship of the duo and their effectiveness and will almost certainly fall into line. The burden lies upon the duo to include the newcomer, understand their powers and change their own comfortable patterns to make the most of the newcomer's abilities.
If things go well, it's time to bring in a fourth, and then a fifth and so on. The core team will have established patterns that newcomers adapt to.
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OK by now I've figured out that you prefer a controlled and risk free environment. So I must say that this team building process you are detailing here is slow arduouse and completely unneccessary to the building of large teams. No build large teams as quickly as you can and follow some basic rules of thumb.
1. Balance mob control against damage output and healing. Not team make up is golden and there is no "CORE" make up necessary to make a good team. I've run full scrapper teams of 8 on invicible and owned owned owned. I've been on teams with blasters, a troller, debuf defenders with little or no healing ability running agian on invincible and owning. It is a balanceing issue but if you balance at specific then you lock yourself out of 70% of the combinations and tactics available in the game.
(Notice I did not include any tankers in either example. No single or even duo of AT are necessary for a team)
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How to work in your team, by archetype:
Tanker: In first, out last. You're the bulwark other heroes depend on. You protect your team by drawing enemy fire and by provoking the enemy into attacking you, not them. If your team's being overwhelmed, you and your work mean the difference between a fighting withdrawal and a rout.
Scrapper: More versatile than the tanker, a team scrapper acts first and foremost as a second line of defense. While the tanker belongs amidst the enemy, you belong in front of the more fragile controllers, defenders and especially blasters. Woe to the enemy who dares attack your charges! You can also serve as a boss-seeking missile, hammering him into submission before he can damage your friends. You serve in the tank's place in a pinch.
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Absolutely wrong on scrappers. Scrappers are loners who can support the team if necessary on a situation by situation basis but there primary role and love is to break things and kill people. They can take anything 1 level into purple and below on a 1 on 1. They are damage dealers that do not need support. basically they lock down the bosses and lts and free the squishies up to take out the rest. To relegate them to a support role again shows a lack of understanding on "WHO" a scrapper is. There is an player guide called Care and Feeding of your scrapper that can explain it all if your so interested.
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Controller: You stifle incoming fire and help your teammates. You use your storms and repels to maneuver the enemy into tight little groups to make the blasters' job easier.
Defender: You augment your team's power, degrade the enemy's, heal if applicable, shoot as required and keep yourself alive.
Blaster: Your colleagues just jumped in front of an enemy force that can, eventually, defeat them. They're counting on -you- to blast the enemy into submission first. Don't let 'em down! Remember above all you can't save your friends if you're in the hospital.
Corruptor: You go well with any team. You coordinate your fire with others and help out your teammates. You uniquely heal or defend yourself while blazing away.
Brute: You are not a slave of your own fury bar, you do not charge in heedlessly. You defend your weaker colleagues as a scrapper would. You draw agro like a tanker and count on your friends to bail you out.
Mastermind: You're very careful to attack only those targets that are already attacking the team. You don't let your minions spaz out and "Leeroy Jenkins" everything in sight, but instead keep them on a very tight leash. You take great pains not to let your pets clog traffic. You're not at all afraid to sacrifice your minions. You'll even summon 'em amid a big spawn to take the alpha strike.
Dominator: You stifle the enemy's fire, switching targets rapidly and watch the entire battlefield. Never give the enemy his chance.
Stalker: You hit that fat, juicy boss -after- the chaos has started. You move fast to get back behind the lines after you strike. You also scout well, informing the team of the situation. You tell 'em kindly not to follow you too closely or they'll spoil your scouting. You know when an enemy is held and take full advantage.
Ideal team composition -- you will no doubt develop your own combos. These are, I hope, helpful rules of thumb.
Heroes: One tanker, one scrapper, one controller, blasters and defenders.
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Ok see previous comments upon team make up.
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Villains: One brute, one dominator, one stalker, four or five corruptors. Consider an MM for a large team only if he's sufficiently skilled. (Most MMs soloed their way to the higher levels. And why not? They're arguably a team unto themselves.) Some consider a pentad of five villains ideal. I disagree. Simply put, there's no such thing as too many corruptors while the MM is optional.
Note: the sidekick system is a bit faulty. Do not expect a sidekick with DOs to perform at the level of a sidekick with SOs. Sub-par performance can be the enhancements' fault, not the players'. Don't allow such things to discourage you.
In PvP a well drilled large team such as I've described will prove as effective in PvP as PvE, and will only be beaten by an equally qualified team.
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Can't talk to PvP as I detest it on a personal level.
To critique overall this guide I have to say it is describing a complete playstyle and team style preference. As a preference it is fine and worthy. Yes the team make ups, processes and such you describe will work but they are not a garauntee nor are they by far the ONLY way to do it. In fact I would say they are the minority. In essence you don't like pugs and this would be a better title guide as "How to build a team for PUG haters" Personally I wouldn't want to play you for one specific reason. I like PUGS, I like them alot. The free flowing nature and inherent trust that must be engendered and the awesomeness of the variety is something that I am drawn towards and relish in. You do not like PUGs for whatever reason. I could not discern it unless it was that first paragraph about the bad pugs. Then my thought is you probably got a couple early bad experiences with pugs and have a dislike for them. Well I got a couple of bad experinces with beets when I was a kid and Hate them ever since too.
I was rereading through my comments and I noticed that I sounded kind of angry and beligerant. If I'm comming off like that to you Collette let me appologize upfront. I've read some of your other stuff and I must say you think about what you write. What can I say... I'm passionate about pugs 
Oh hell.... I just noticed your title... I'm starting to feel like I'm eating some shoe leather here.
Grunthor,
Relax. No shoe leather here. The clash of ideas is what makes the forums interesting. And I appreciate your passion.
"I just noticed your title..."
Title? What title?
"PUGs can be armed mobs but they generally only have that habit in the lower levels."
I too find the higher level PUGs a big improvement over lower level ones. It's those lower level ones that I find difficult to bear. Getting to know a new archetype or powerset is one thing, not knowing how to work well in teams is something very different. This guide was meant to show players -especially new players- how to work in a cohesive team, or even how to build one in a reliable way.
"Scrappers are loners who can support the team if necessary... their primary role and love is to break things."
I recall a wonderful guide categorizing scrappers as Wild, Feral and Domesticated. The wild ones work alone, the feral ones like you can work in a team, domestic ones like me don't do solo. As this guide is about teaming effectively, it's logically irrelevant to the loners. It is relevant for scrappers like me who love working in a team. In my experience, the domestic scrapper's "guard dog" role is one of the least played, most heroic and involving of roles in the entire game, especially in a tanker's absence.
I brought a BS/SR to level 50 before the I-5 SR buff with very little soloing. Most of "Sister Colette's" career was spent as the personal bodyguard of a blaster and an empath. So I must take some exception to your saying I lack understanding of a scrapper's role in a team. Indeed I built my scrapper to challenge the soloist mentality.
"I've figured out you prefer a controlled and risk free environment."
Hoo! My debt free level 32 Dominator and I would disagree with you. Nothing a dom does is risk free. What I prefer is to run the whole darn post-SO game on Invincible/Ruthless without earning debt badges. Now that's fun! But it demands a solid team of very good players.
"There is no flavor of the month set of powers... period."
I think your admitted hatred of PvP has left you innocent to certain trends.
"To say that players who use Leet do not care anything for you is ridiculous."
I wrote, "one -sign- of an unworthy teammate is the use of Leet." I was listing red flags. I can see how this can be misunderstood as an absolute statement if out of context. My fault, let me rephrase: one suspicious indication of an unworthy teammate is the use of Leet. Does this make the statement conditional rather than absolute, as I'd intended?
"In essence you don't like PUGs..."
I don't like -bad- PUGs except when I'm in the mood for a comedy. While effective PUGs certainly happen at higher levels, in my circles "PUG" has become almost synonymous with "incompetent." I'm trying to fix that.
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I brought a BS/SR to level 50 before the I-5 SR buff with very little soloing. Most of "Sister Colette's" career was spent as the personal bodyguard of a blaster and an empath. So I must take some exception to your saying I lack understanding of a scrapper's role in a team. Indeed I built my scrapper to challenge the soloist mentality
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Exception noted and understood. I went back and reread my comments with a full nights sleep behind me and saw what a jerk of a statement that part was. So for that I apologize. Passion is great but humility is a necessary part of maturity as well. I think you'd agree on that.
By the way the scrapper guide you are talking about is linked to in my sig. I almost shouted and cried for joy when I read something that discribed me to a T. Probably one of the best guides I have ever read. Personally I think there should be a series of guides in the same nature for every AT.
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"There is no flavor of the month set of powers... period."
I think your admitted hatred of PvP has left you innocent to certain trends.
"To say that players who use Leet do not care anything for you is ridiculous."
I wrote, "one -sign- of an unworthy teammate is the use of Leet." I was listing red flags. I can see how this can be misunderstood as an absolute statement if out of context. My fault, let me rephrase: one suspicious indication of an unworthy teammate is the use of Leet. Does this make the statement conditional rather than absolute, as I'd intended?
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Ok I still maintain my original statement within the context of PvE As I noted and you noted I noted I do not like PvP. CoX was never built for PvP and for the most part the majority (90% at a guess) of content is PvE. Within that context there is too much variety of persons to get a flavor of the month. I say this because the nature of PvP is one of confrontational Your toon build is better then my toon build type of play. This leads to an inherent toon build worthiness ranking. Those builds are then the focus rather then the TOON. my toon Sky Grunthor is specifically a HERO and not a Gladiator (PvP to me is a gladiator sport). she is built around a concept and not a goal. In my experience the majority of toons out there that I play with are also done that way.
The focus change within PvP has a large cultural change associated with it. The standard of worthiness within PvP is one of I BEAT YOU. Very personal and antagonistic. To me this draws the personalities of "I'm better then you are, I'm better then you are" in droves. While this is by far not everyone. I've played enough pvp in other games to understand that there is a mature and dynamic base of players there that want the challenge. What IMO happens is that you get a far greater number (greater then in PvE) of these leet pwning punks with nothing better to do in there lives then play a video game all day and night and move from one MMO to another to another like the MMO is the flavor of the month.
Let me put a personal story to it. I was one of the pre-order COV people (after playing COH for about 6 months) and was there on launch and kickoff and the last day of beta as well. When COV launched I spent a month playing it only. I joined an VG right off the bat as I was part of one of the best SG's in Virtue and loved the instant connections and social aspects that the sg chat and coalition chat broaght. Well I join this SG and its full of all these teens and kids from timbucktoo to milwaukee. They as a group had a voice chat programmed that they hosted on their site and I went and downloaded it, installed and started playing with them. Talk about MMO of the Month! From the chatter I got they seemed to travel around from this MMO to that MMO as they got tired with one or another becuase they had "Beat" the game or "Pwned" everyone in it. This kind of attittude is engendered in the l33t culture. One of the best things that keeps me here at CoX is that it does not by its nature draw and redraw these kinds of poeples. Its a game for people who have a life and can only play a couple of hours at a time 1 time a week or so and if your wife/husband is nice enought maybee allow you an entire afternoon on a saturday after you've done the housework or mowed the lawn or whatever.
All of this is to say that yes leet can be indicitive of these types of people. I know big long thing to say what you said.
Maybe I should write a book where I talk nonsense all day. Oh no don't have time for it... To busy reading, or playing CoH or writing software, or making pottery, or going to plays, going to parks, riding my bike, etc....
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For examples of how the large team goes wrong, you need only look at the threads regarding Pick-up groups or "PUGs." These groups are essentially armed mobs, each fighting their own battle, charging off alone, not communicating, filled with people who used cheats like "power-levelling" to advance their characters and care absolutely nothing for their teammates. They attack recklessly and call for healing. They bicker and squabble, blame everyone but themselves when things go wrong and disintegrate against any serious opposition. It's an ordeal to work with them. Don't. Whatever skill you bring will be squandered and they will resent your attempt to impose order.
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I really must interject here to clear up a possible misleading description. A PUG is not bad nor does it describe a bad team. A pick up group is simply team members chosen, or "picked up" randomly, out of the blue. What you are describing here is a bad team, not a pick up group. It is common to find idiot players on any team, regardless of how they got on the team. Let's not disparage pick up groups. In the last 6 or 7 months I have very rarely found a bad pick up group. They have been the best, strongest and most organized teams I have been on. After all, I'm on the team. If you have bad experiences with pick up groups, remember this... "the one thing they have in common is that YOU are on all of them".
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Mamphis_Bill,
I like your summaries and I think our different appraisals can only help. Even so, your work seems to be more descriptive of what the AT's are rather than what they do. It's an obscure point, I know. I was writing about what a player should expect to be doing in a hypothetical eight-man team.
As an example, a defender or a corruptor solo will seem very similar, with firepower traded for superior buffs/debuffs. On their respective teams, a defender will concentrate upon his AoE buff/debuffs and healing, as his blasting will have less importance. A corruptor must in the same setting blaze away like a blaster.
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Bill's summaries were factual and accurate. That is something best passed to the reader. What the player actually does is tightly based on what abilities they start with.
Also, I find defenders and corruptors quite different although they "can" play the same role. The power choices is what will define your role and not the setting. Good luck trying to get a storm defender to heal the team. Both defenders and corruptors can be either attackers or buffers or healers depending on their power choices and not so much on team dynamics. Same with controllers, and to a lesser extent dominators.
The guide itself contains some good pointers, but the AT roles are straight-jacketed. You describe one possible way a team can work, with some powersets (TA defenders aren't going to heal, after all). This is not unexpected from a one sentence description, but "Commandments" is not an accurate title for such a guide. 'Telltales', 'Suggestions', or 'Guidelines' would be far more appropriate.
Nice post....:-)
I particularly liked mentioning the use of an actual "language" to communicate to teammates. While using coloquial or slang terms may be cute, it is also rather cryptic to some could be insulting to others and certainly NOT a very effective way of communicating. When in doubt, use an actual language..:-)
I originally thought the term Pwn to be gaelic, similar to my toons name "Pwca" (phooka), from Shakespeare's Midsummer Nights Dream.
I have only recently realized that the term PWN, not only stands for the "Professional Womens Network", but also means to brutally destroy an enemy...hehe
Branche
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One sign of an unworthy teammate is the use of "Leet." If a person can't be bothered to speak properly to his teammates, why would he exert effort toward mastery of the game or helping you? For example, avoid healers who use the curt and dismissive "kthxbi" instead of, "Alright. Thank you and see you soon." This leet-speaker cares -nothing- for you and probably won't be much of a healer. Slovenly language reflects a slovenly person. (This absolutely doesn't apply to those for whom English is a second language, but to those too lazy to use even one language properly.)
Another sign is a "flavor of the month" set of powers. You don't want someone who seeks out cheap powersets like Energy Melee, but the one who likes to find unorthodox ways to counter those powers. (Incidentally, Intimidate does something wonderful to the Aim/Buildup combo.)
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For the most part your guide looks good, however for these two paragraphs I'd re-word them. For the first, leet speak isn't really a sign of a player who can't play, a lot of people use condensed words, I see nothing wrong with it personally, the only real thing that matters is whether you as the player can stand it.
The second paragraph I don't think should be included at all, as 'FoTM' powerset combinations ARE FoTM for a reason. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to play a good powerset combo, FoTM is really just a derogatory phrase tacked on to a good number of powerset combinations because of (and this is just speculation, mind) players who see what kinds of things the powerset can do and want to play it to. The actual phrase 'flavor of the month' doesn't make sense at all if you think about it. How many months has spines/regen been a flavor, for example? 
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One sign of an unworthy teammate is the use of "Leet." If a person can't be bothered to speak properly to his teammates, why would he exert effort toward mastery of the game or helping you? For example, avoid healers who use the curt and dismissive "kthxbi" instead of, "Alright. Thank you and see you soon." This leet-speaker cares -nothing- for you and probably won't be much of a healer. Slovenly language reflects a slovenly person. (This absolutely doesn't apply to those for whom English is a second language, but to those too lazy to use even one language properly.)
Another sign is a "flavor of the month" set of powers. You don't want someone who seeks out cheap powersets like Energy Melee, but the one who likes to find unorthodox ways to counter those powers. (Incidentally, Intimidate does something wonderful to the Aim/Buildup combo.)
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For the most part your guide looks good, however for these two paragraphs I'd re-word them. For the first, leet speak isn't really a sign of a player who can't play, a lot of people use condensed words, I see nothing wrong with it personally, the only real thing that matters is whether you as the player can stand it.
The second paragraph I don't think should be included at all, as 'FoTM' powerset combinations ARE FoTM for a reason. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to play a good powerset combo, FoTM is really just a derogatory phrase tacked on to a good number of powerset combinations because of (and this is just speculation, mind) players who see what kinds of things the powerset can do and want to play it to. The actual phrase 'flavor of the month' doesn't make sense at all if you think about it. How many months has spines/regen been a flavor, for example?
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Agreed. Saying Fotm is pointless. Any one can make any combo. Those 2 paragraphs has nothing to do with a bad or good team.
This guide discusses perhaps the broadest but most rewarding topic in the game -- teaming effectively and mastering the large group in large scale combat.
A team of five or larger playing against the highest difficulty can earn the maximum XP per hour, but cannot survive at this lofty difficulty without tight discipline and solid tactical experience of your own and your colleagues' capabilities. Herein lies the greatest challenge of the City of Heroes games, one which in all modesty even your humble writer has yet to truly master after years of play.
For examples of how the large team goes wrong, you need only look at the threads regarding Pick-up groups or "PUGs." These groups are essentially armed mobs, each fighting their own battle, charging off alone, not communicating, filled with people who used cheats like "power-levelling" to advance their characters and care absolutely nothing for their teammates. They attack recklessly and call for healing. They bicker and squabble, blame everyone but themselves when things go wrong and disintegrate against any serious opposition. It's an ordeal to work with them. Don't. Whatever skill you bring will be squandered and they will resent your attempt to impose order.
One sign of an unworthy teammate is the use of "Leet." If a person can't be bothered to speak properly to his teammates, why would he exert effort toward mastery of the game or helping you? For example, avoid healers who use the curt and dismissive "kthxbi" instead of, "Alright. Thank you and see you soon." This leet-speaker cares -nothing- for you and probably won't be much of a healer. Slovenly language reflects a slovenly person. (This absolutely doesn't apply to those for whom English is a second language, but to those too lazy to use even one language properly.)
Another sign is a "flavor of the month" set of powers. You don't want someone who seeks out cheap powersets like Energy Melee, but the one who likes to find unorthodox ways to counter those powers. (Incidentally, Intimidate does something wonderful to the Aim/Buildup combo.)
Moving on, how to build a potent team of large numbers? Frankly, it's a process. The demands are not demands of time in-game but of knowledge, self control and consideration for your colleagues. This guide will discuss these without covering specific tactics such as "draw" or "doorjam." A good team will discover these as they go.
The first step is to team with -one- other person who shares your idealistic interest in an effective team. This person, like you, distains cheap tricks like power-levelling or herding and seeks authentic mastery of the game. He also loves to work with others.
Moreover, this person has an AT/powerset that works well with yours. Fine "dynamic duo" examples include: Dominator-Stalker, Tanker-Blaster, Brute and Kinetics or Scrapper/Empath In each case here, the pair -must- work together to be truly effective, but the combination startles with its synergy and power.
How does this pair work together?
1. They attack as one, never allowing themselves to be separated. They check to see the other is ready to attack and is not drained of endurance or resting.
2. They watch each others' backs, guard each other against attackers, trade inspirations when needed, heal each other if able.
3. They admit fault when something goes wrong. Perhaps the most reassuring thing one can say to one's team is "my bad." This's the mark of a person secure in themselves yet ready to learn. The insecure seek to blame others, especially when something is their fault.
4. They dismiss the ego. If, say, one person has superior experience in Mayhem missions, the other does not feel threatened by playing the student.
5. They care about the team's well being, to the point of taking debt for it. They schedule their play-time together and even level together.
6. They compliment each other for work well done.
7. They control their tempers. When they must offer correction, they do so as gently as they can. They do not resent correction kindly offered. They remember this is a game.
8. They learn how to use their powers -in coordination- to best effect.
9. They consider defeat a chance to refine their methods, not a cue to disband the team.
10. They have incredible fun! Even they are amazed by their effectiveness and the way they can almost read each others' minds. They love working with their friends.
Here is a portrait of a healthy partnership. After a mere handful of missions, this duo is ready to take on a third.
A triad brings new challenges. The newcomer will promptly perceive the tightly knit relationship of the duo and their effectiveness and will almost certainly fall into line. The burden lies upon the duo to include the newcomer, understand their powers and change their own comfortable patterns to make the most of the newcomer's abilities.
If things go well, it's time to bring in a fourth, and then a fifth and so on. The core team will have established patterns that newcomers adapt to.
How to work in your team, by archetype:
Tanker: In first, out last. You're the bulwark other heroes depend on. You protect your team by drawing enemy fire and by provoking the enemy into attacking you, not them. If your team's being overwhelmed, you and your work mean the difference between a fighting withdrawal and a rout.
Scrapper: More versatile than the tanker, a team scrapper acts first and foremost as a second line of defense. While the tanker belongs amidst the enemy, you belong in front of the more fragile controllers, defenders and especially blasters. Woe to the enemy who dares attack your charges! You can also serve as a boss-seeking missile, hammering him into submission before he can damage your friends. You serve in the tank's place in a pinch.
Controller: You stifle incoming fire and help your teammates. You use your storms and repels to maneuver the enemy into tight little groups to make the blasters' job easier.
Defender: You augment your team's power, degrade the enemy's, heal if applicable, shoot as required and keep yourself alive.
Blaster: Your colleagues just jumped in front of an enemy force that can, eventually, defeat them. They're counting on -you- to blast the enemy into submission first. Don't let 'em down! Remember above all you can't save your friends if you're in the hospital.
Corruptor: You go well with any team. You coordinate your fire with others and help out your teammates. You uniquely heal or defend yourself while blazing away.
Brute: You are not a slave of your own fury bar, you do not charge in heedlessly. You defend your weaker colleagues as a scrapper would. You draw agro like a tanker and count on your friends to bail you out.
Mastermind: You're very careful to attack only those targets that are already attacking the team. You don't let your minions spaz out and "Leeroy Jenkins" everything in sight, but instead keep them on a very tight leash. You take great pains not to let your pets clog traffic. You're not at all afraid to sacrifice your minions. You'll even summon 'em amid a big spawn to take the alpha strike.
Dominator: You stifle the enemy's fire, switching targets rapidly and watch the entire battlefield. Never give the enemy his chance.
Stalker: You hit that fat, juicy boss -after- the chaos has started. You move fast to get back behind the lines after you strike. You also scout well, informing the team of the situation. You tell 'em kindly not to follow you too closely or they'll spoil your scouting. You know when an enemy is held and take full advantage.
Ideal team composition -- you will no doubt develop your own combos. These are, I hope, helpful rules of thumb.
Heroes: One tanker, one scrapper, one controller, blasters and defenders.
Villains: One brute, one dominator, one stalker, four or five corruptors. Consider an MM for a large team only if he's sufficiently skilled. (Most MMs soloed their way to the higher levels. And why not? They're arguably a team unto themselves.) Some consider a pentad of five villains ideal. I disagree. Simply put, there's no such thing as too many corruptors while the MM is optional.
Note: the sidekick system is a bit faulty. Do not expect a sidekick with DOs to perform at the level of a sidekick with SOs. Sub-par performance can be the enhancements' fault, not the players'. Don't allow such things to discourage you.
In PvP a well drilled large team such as I've described will prove as effective in PvP as PvE, and will only be beaten by an equally qualified team.