Endurance Woes - Possible Bug
By
Anijo,
Posted on: 2006-09-20 18:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Lots of people have reported similar over the last few months. Long threads with no resolutions. Maybe it's just my memory, but I'm noticing they all seem to be high level Brutes too.
Not an ideal solution, but buy new end reducers and over-write the ones you already have slotted. Do the same for any and all endmods you have - overwrite the existing ones w/ new ones. It shouldn't be too bad since you're level 40, so you'll have a good amount of inf. Again, not an ideal solution, but I've heard it helped w/ other people. Also, if possible, check your end bar before using seismic smash, and immediately after. Obviously it'll be off by a few points, as there's natural end recovery to account for, but it can't hurt.
I played as my 50 em/da brute yesterday, both as a normal 50 and malefactored down, (to 25 in bloody bay and 26 as a malefactor), and didn't notice anything noticeable.
See my thread...
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...=4#Post6473315
Turns out for me Focused Accuracy was the source of most of my woes, but even still, my 45 Tank is nowhere near the end efficient monster he was a few weeks ago.
This would probably be a better thread for the OP to check out...
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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This would probably be a better thread for the OP to check out...
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Yep, I knew I had seen this discussed, and I went looking, found that thread again, and updated it with this info. I also sent a PM the way of the devs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Sadly, replacing my enhancers didn't do anything. Given the nature of the behavior I'm seeing, I didn't really expect it to, but it had occured to me to try it even before seeing it here, so I tried it. Fortunately I only replaced the enhancers in my toggles and in Seismic Smash.
I went into a Freakshow mission and attacked a LT. The first guy was a Freak Juicer Champion (not sure that was his name, but he was one of the guys with the Tesla coils on the shoulders). These guys actually drain endurnace. I watched my endurance bar durung the fight with him. Nothing untoward happened, and by the time he was dead I had a net use of about 25% of my endurance bar.
Then I moved on to a Freak Smasher minion. During my fight with him, Seismic Smash did that thing again. There was a huge drop in my endurance. I was running Hasten, and I checked but it had not dropped yet (I had activated it when I attacked the Juicer). By the time this minion was dead, I was at about half my endurance bar.
Both these foes were +2.
You can see something went wrong there. I netted as much or more endurance use taking down a minion as I did an endurance draining LT before him, including the recovery I would have gotten in the 5-6 second gap between them as I moved from one target to the next (they were separate spawns).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I think the devs are looking into this... I remember reading somewhere that someone got a pm from a dev saying that they've been getting these reports from a lot of reliable people. So I dunno... have you send say _castle_ a pm with the details of your testing and results?
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I think the devs are looking into this... I remember reading somewhere that someone got a pm from a dev saying that they've been getting these reports from a lot of reliable people. So I dunno... have you send say _castle_ a pm with the details of your testing and results?
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I sent one to Cricket asking her to pass it on to whoever seemed like the right folks. Hopefully that'll include Casltle if he's right folk. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I've got $5 that says the inherants are bugged and costing endurance.
Like Fury? That would be hard to correlate with intermittent extra endurance costs, but who knows.
In as much frustration over the impact this has had on my Brute as intent to get a comparison, I switched to my Dark/Dark Corruptor, who's 38. I ran some missions and saw nothing comparable. Whether that means this is restricted to Brutes or not I don't have enough info to say. I'll try my Inv/EM Tanker tonight, and maybe compare that to my EM/Dark Brute.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I've been looking at this off and on for a few months (since I7 was released) and haven't found any replicatable evidence for it. I have seen enough reports from enough disparate sources that I believe there is something funky happening, but so far, I've not been able to track it down.
If there is any way I can collect detailed information from a client perspective, let me know. The effect is crippling. I've tried a few things and it wouldn't go away.
Since there was a patch today I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing if I still have the problem. I know that (obviously) there was no fix meant to be loaded for this today, but then again it's not like yesterday's patch should have miraculously infected my character, either.
On the off chance it's any help, I did do one vaguely endurance-related thing before I started playing in earnest yesterday, and subsequently noticed the problem. I slotted an endmod enhancement in Consume (I went from 2ACC/3RCG/1ENDMOD to 2/2/2). I did not try reverting it; it didn't occur to me it could have been related until now.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
As I have said before in one of the other threads I've noticed the same for my SS/Stone Armor brute. She was around lvl 37 (or 38) when I started to notice the end. change...
Recalling one quick event...I was in a mission and my fury bar was about 1/2 full and my end. bar was full (I think I used blue inspirations) and I targetted a foe around a corner and I hit 'tp foe' but I accidentally moved so that cancelled it out and I used tp foe again and this time the mob got tp'ed to me and I used KO Blow and then one other attack (I think Haymaker) and I was pretty much out of endurance after that one minion (probably either yellow or orange conned to me...don't remember).
I'll try to keep a more detailed log/description but...something is funky.
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I have experienced the same problems. But from what I have knowticed: It isn't that i'm being sapped/charge bolted (MU's)/ or Speck Op naded... it's that midway through a mission/outdoor travel/PvP, My toon will STOP recharging endurance. I mean NOTHING, and usualy what I do that seems to fix it is that I have to completely recharge my stamina bar with "BLUES" with my toggles turned off.
This has actualy been a problem since I6. However with all the new Master Minds being the FOTM no one really knowticed.
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Recalling one quick event...I was in a mission and my fury bar was about 1/2 full and my end. bar was full (I think I used blue inspirations) and I targetted a foe around a corner and I hit 'tp foe' but I accidentally moved so that cancelled it out and I used tp foe again and this time the mob got tp'ed to me and I used KO Blow and then one other attack (I think Haymaker) and I was pretty much out of endurance after that one minion (probably either yellow or orange conned to me...don't remember).
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Out of curiosity, how is your KOB slotted? Does it have any end reducers in it?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Some suggestions for gathering data that you can give to Castle:
Remove all possible end saving things (enhancements, etc) from a couple of your low level attack powers. Malf down to level 19 to get rid of stamina. Turn off all toggles (including sprint).
Attack low level mobs (no danger to you) and note the end used for each attack and see if it is consistant with what should normally be expected. Note any inconsistancies.
Try that with a various mix of toggles on/off to maybe find a pattern. Un-Malf (to regain stamina) and try again.
Take detailed notes.
Yea, it sounds like a lot of work but deliberate tests using a deliberate plan may reveal something.
One thing I've seemed to notice and might be crazy is it seems when I finally slot an enhancement with a x5 or x0(15, 20, 25, 35, 40, 45, 50), and my enhancements are +3 with these typed of numbered enhancements, it seems they don't work as well as they should. For example if I'm 32 and slot with 35s it almost seems like the powers seem to be working less then if they were +2ed for like a 34 enhancement. It's almost like the enhancement is too powerful for my toons to fully get the hang of so they don't work too well until I'm a level that makes them only +2(35 seem to work better when I'm 33 and not 32). I know this sounds crazy but throughout the years playing my toons it's always seemed like they. They seem better when they are +2ed and not +3 x0's or x5. Anyone feel like they're going crazy too? I seem to notice this most with ACC's, Reduce Ends, and Endurance Modifications.
I've noticed it most while running PvP missions in Siren's Call. The more I use a temp power inbetween missions, the more it seems to 'bleed off.' After the 14-15th mission, I'm resting between every other spawn to get back endurance. This is without Stamna in the build, so it goes pretty quick.
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I've noticed it most while running PvP missions in Siren's Call. The more I use a temp power inbetween missions, the more it seems to 'bleed off.' After the 14-15th mission, I'm resting between every other spawn to get back endurance. This is without Stamna in the build, so it goes pretty quick.
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Oh my. I just got Debt Protection, which is an auto power. I had no significant playtime between getting the power and noticing the problem yesterday.
If I still have this issue when I get home, I will copy to test, validate it still happens there, and delete the temp power.
Hey, I don't want to delete it on live for nothing.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I feel for ya castle.
Alas, I can be of no help in pinning it down. It seems to be random. By closely monitoring the endurance number (which ain't easy), I have definitely seen instances where certain attacks actually charged me double - but it isn't every time.
I do know I see it most often on my Inv/SS Tank than any other toon. But I have also seen it happen to my DM/FA Brute, Bot/FF MM. It happened once to my Ill/Rad troller.
Suggestion: spit out endurance numbers to a log so we can more easily document things like this and give you ample data to pin this down..
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When Soldiers of Arachnos got their names added to the Destiny List, Longbow managed to get a copy of the list and began rounding villains up. But one name on the list shocked them...
I feel for you, I have video evidence from my toon in i6 and then again in i7, showing a major decline in endurance performance. It is crippling to pretty much any toon that hovered near a balanced use of endurance:recovery.
That idea of the power either using the original cost or double the slotted cost kind of makes sense. I know a number of times I've been like "dang bitter ice blast just used a lot of end", but I've always just shrugged it off and figured I was just seeing things.
Anyway, check my sig to see that others feel the pain too. It's not fun and the fact that they can't pinpoint it is disheartening.
Frosticus
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Suggestion: spit out endurance numbers to a log so we can more easily document things like this and give you ample data to pin this down..
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Agreed. I think it would be helpful for more than just debugging, but thats me.
We should have "Endurance" channels like we have "Heal" channels. Like, Endurance Heal, Endurance Drain (for the restore/attack), Endurance Usage (So we always know just how much endurance a power uses), and Endurance Toggle Usage (which would be 'spammy' and off by default).
Don't need all of those channels, but would be nice. I've gotten quite tired of the "X has drain 'some' endurance from you" which turns out to be 80 pts of Endurance. Or "Charged Bolts restores 'some' endurance to you" some? How much? I didn't notice it.
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Well, take this with a large grain of salt, because my test was not very scientific, but I copied to test, went into a mission, and seemed to have the problem. After a couple of suspicious dips in my endurance, I deleted the Life Insurance (Debt Protection) temp power.
I then played quite normally.
I am going to repeat the test and make more certain that I am having the problem with LI.
Note that this could explain the issue on high-level Brutes, as this is a level 40-44 Mayhem temp power.
This does not explain the issue on any Hero, or any Villain that's not completed that mayhem mission. Explanations I can think of there is that the problem is independant but made worse by the temp power, the problem is triggered by other temp powers as well (I have many and never use them), or this is all just a coincidence.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
adding my voice to the complaint, lvl37 MM henc/ff
i use to be able pop my pets, buff them with both upgrades, throw on all 3 toggle leadership and dispersion bubble and def and ins all six pets without running out of end. now i'm lucky to upgrade all the pets before the bar runs dry. for ench slots i have
Equip merc
36 end red, 37 recharge
tactical up
37 rech,39 rech,36 end red
deflection shield
2 lvl 36 end red
insulation shield
2 lvl 36 end red
dispersion bubble
2 lvl 40 end red
stamina
3 lvl 36 end enhance
maneuvers
2 lvl 36 end reduc
tactic
2 lvl 36 end redu
assault
lvl 36 end lvl 40 end
these are all SO's. no end rdeuce in merc summons.
Had not played my MM for about a week and noticed the change yestuday. i hope you can replicate this build and test it.
Something is wrong.
I have been playing my Stone Melee/Fiery Aura Brute consistently for several days. I have not just leveled. I am not using new powers. My character is level 40, so I have a very good feel for how it plays.
And I am running out of endurance far, far faster than I was yesterday.
Every one of my attacks that is part of my attack chain has two even-level endurance reducer SO enhancements in it. That means they cost 60% of their base cost. I have 3-slotted Stamina, again with even-level SOs.
My most expensive attack is Seismic Smash. It has a base cost of 18.512 endurance per activation. With two endurance reducers in it, it should cost 11.111 endurance per activation. Still expensive, but quite manageable.
This is a character that yesterday I could easily run through four to six spawns before needing to rest, because I have a self-heal and an endurance recovery power. Tonight, I am running out of endurance on single +2 spawns. I end such fights in the lower 1/3 or 1/4 of my endurance bar.
Something is wrong.
In trying to quantify what I am experiencing, I did the only thing I could, which was watch my endurance bar move around as I use powers. Since this is a Brute, I have toggles, so my bar moves down in little increments all the time, then jumps back up when I regain endurance on my Stamina-augmented schedule. My attacks clearly move my bar down, and most of the time the movement seems reasonable for the power.
Most of the time.
I have, several times now, seen Seismic Smash empty my endurance bar a huge amount; much more than the 11 and change endurance it should cost me. It is difficult to estimate accurately, but I would put it at roughly double that, 20 or so endurance. I was not fighting end-draining foes. (I carefully chose a Council paper mission, for example, for just that reason.) I was careful to check each time that I was not reasonably suffering some other effect, such as a Hasten crash. We've all seen paranoid posts about nerfs to accuracy and endurance before, and I don't want to be such a poster.
These observations give the appearance that, inconsistently, I am paying either double the reduced cost or the full, unenhanced cost of my attack; the small difference in those two numbers makes it difficult to know which on a visual scale like the endurance bar. But I have now observed it several times. I also observed a similarly huge cost on Heavy Mallet, my next-largest attack. This leads me to believe it may be occurring on my less expensive attacks as well, but I cannot clearly resolve the matter with them, because they move my endurance bar less due to smaller cost.
I've spend a lot of time getting this character to actually have manageable endurance burn, and I can tell that something is dramatically different tonight.
Something is wrong.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA