Endurance Woes - Possible Bug
By
Anijo,
Posted on: 2006-09-20 18:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Just in case people wonder, I lost that temp power a while back. Level 38 or so. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Some temp powers having an unintended end crash would be an interesting possibility...
The effect of the +5 End is rather negligible considering the issues some players have been describing.
Without Stamina, +5 End is +0.08 End Per Sec.
With Stamina with three even level SO's, +5 End is +0.12 End Per Sec.
Helpful? Sure.
Going to cause the issues players have been having going from 105 End to 100? I don't think so.
EDIT:
Just had a thought. We have "Conserve Power" which for a duration reduces the cost of all powers.
What if Life Insurance is an auto-power that has that in reverse by accident? Like, it slightly increases the cost of all powers. If it's something like a 10% Increase to Endurance Costs, than it would be unnoticeable with the majority of powers we use a lot (I mean in looking at the End Bar, a 5.2 end power that costs 10% more would be 5.7), but would be noticeable with powers that have 25+ Endurance Cost (A power with 25 End would be 27, and something with 30+ End would be 33), so perhaps this could be something that could be looked into. (Multiple AT's and multiple powers tested would be best of course)
Something like this would actually be close to what Frosticus experienced. Frosticus calc'd out the EPS of her slotting.
3.98 EPS before I7
3.73 EPS after I7
Now, let's factor in my theoretical 10% increase in endurance, and that 3.73 EPS becomes 4.1 EPS. Which quite well mirrors Frosticus' two vids.
Except, that Frosticus doens't have Life Insurance in the After I7. =\ Still, something somewhere seems to be increasing costs by around 10% it seems.
Whats even more interesting about Frosticus' two vids. The After I7 one, has the Blue Icon Accolade that the before didn't, which isn't it a +5 End boost? So, maybe its there too? Not sure of course, just kinda tossing out ideas now.
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Well, I now truly understand Castle's inability to find or document this.
I copied myself to test, ran some combat, believe I saw big end drops. Sadly, test is very laggy currently, so it's possible that polluted the way my bar was behaving.
I tried removing Life Insurance, played some, seemed fine.
I deleted my copied character, went to live, played some, determined I was still seeing large drops. I recopied to test, no longer could spot the issue (didn't do anything to my temp powers).
Went back to live, played for three hours. No apparent problems.
What a pain in the [censored]. I'll take it, assuming it stays away. But what the hell...
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Could it be related in a similar fashion to the sound loop bug in that the data being sent to use a power is skipping and hitting twice, causing to be charged twice?
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Being one of the early posters identifying this problem, I have to say that I most notice endurance issues on my toons who have some of the most expensive endurance cost chains for toggles & click powers. Other toons apparently are much more 'efficient' endurance wise and never seem to drop below 75% full.
With my 43 Fire/Storm troller running Imps, Hurricane, Steamy Mist, a mob of 3-4 if I help my Imps by using Char, Fire Cages, Flashfire, I can pretty much drain my end down to 15-20% of the bar on one attack chain.
On another note, Leadership Pool powers are aparently waaay too expensive even fully slotted with end reductions, they drain out the same troller like he's got a hole in his endurance pocket. Running the 3 LP powers and SJing around Sirens or in a mish I can watch my endurance bar drain quickly, and if I use my attack chain, I can expect to drop all toggles shortly thereafter if I don't pop a blue or turn off LP powers.
As far as trying to exemp/Mal down lvls to test for the issue, the problem crops up in knowing how ED treats current slotting into whatever exemp/Mal lvl you drop to. Too many parameters to figure that one I'm afraid.
At least Cricket is still investigating!! So I continue to keep my fingers crossed even after 6 months of reports!
"It is that balance, the ground between EB and AV, where the PvP struggle should exist. Where a 1v1 becomes a struggle of equals, and 1vMany gives the benefit to the 1."
Freedom: Fireocity, Electro Imp, Gotya
Infinity: Meteor Storm, Mutai Kid, General Bot, Da Smasher
Just thought I'd mention another high level brute who's run into this... my stone/inv peridically drops to near nothing on the course of a fight he could have taken easily before.
Here you come with a stupid name like Fixer - brutalkillz_
Nothing scientific here, only that I don't really understand endurance. Leveled to 28 lastnight, picked up stamina. Now at 27, I wasn't really having any major endurance problems but still planning on stamina. So I picked it up, dropped an End Mod SO in there, and my endurance seemed to drain even faster than at 27.
Does endurance usage scale, like at level 27 if Shadow Punch uses 20 endurance, will it use 22 at level 28?
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing scientific here, only that I don't really understand endurance. Leveled to 28 lastnight, picked up stamina. Now at 27, I wasn't really having any major endurance problems but still planning on stamina. So I picked it up, dropped an End Mod SO in there, and my endurance seemed to drain even faster than at 27.
Does endurance usage scale, like at level 27 if Shadow Punch uses 20 endurance, will it use 22 at level 28?
[/ QUOTE ]
no - it is supposed to be constant.
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This is not tested or in any way codified, more of a "hey what's going on?"
I've set up my 50 DM/DA to be very efficient for end usage. Yes, hard to believe, but with endredux in almost everything, she can fight with all the cloaks running. I was testing out a new build for her (Body Mastery). My testing involves running the same three missions on live and then running the same three missions on test, and then taking the new build and running the same three missions (stopping just short of completing them). On live I had poor end usage where before I believed I had the problems solved. The wierd part was test, She was more efficient with End usage with Focused Accuracy running than the old Dark Mastery build. huh??? 
She has hurdle/leaping pool.
After I7 my Elec/Invuln Brute had terrible end usage when before I used to brag to my VG about how end usage wasn't a problem. She has swift/fly.
I wish Castle the best of luck in finding out what the heck is going on.
I've got a L26 BS/Regen, no End redux slotting, Quick Recovery with 2 SO End Mods who seemed to be burning End much faster than usual, he runs with just Integration and Combat Jumping. I was bottoming out after one or two spawns. I also have a L20 Son/Son defender who had to keep Combat Jumping off because with it on he burned End far too fast. I'm wondering if maybe the price of CJ or the frequency of the cost got accidently changed? CJ used to be one of the cheapest toggles to run.
Other things I thought of as possibilities (many of which are completely off the wall), someone notice an increase in cost of about 10% for some, the ED End reduction was a 13% decrease, could it somehow be reverting to the pre-ED costs?
For the powers costing double, there is a chance it could be a networking issue where the "I'm executing this power" message is sent, the client thinks it didn't make it, so retransmits, but the server receives both messages and applies the End cost twice. But this is from someone with no real info on how the client/server communication in CoX is handled.
Just a couple ideas. I'll experiment with my BS/Regen tonight and see if I can spot any specific examples of excessive End cost.
[ QUOTE ]
The effect of the +5 End is rather negligible considering the issues some players have been describing.
Without Stamina, +5 End is +0.08 End Per Sec.
With Stamina with three even level SO's, +5 End is +0.12 End Per Sec.
Helpful? Sure.
Going to cause the issues players have been having going from 105 End to 100? I don't think so.
EDIT:
Just had a thought. We have "Conserve Power" which for a duration reduces the cost of all powers.
What if Life Insurance is an auto-power that has that in reverse by accident? Like, it slightly increases the cost of all powers. If it's something like a 10% Increase to Endurance Costs, than it would be unnoticeable with the majority of powers we use a lot (I mean in looking at the End Bar, a 5.2 end power that costs 10% more would be 5.7), but would be noticeable with powers that have 25+ Endurance Cost (A power with 25 End would be 27, and something with 30+ End would be 33), so perhaps this could be something that could be looked into. (Multiple AT's and multiple powers tested would be best of course)
Something like this would actually be close to what Frosticus experienced. Frosticus calc'd out the EPS of her slotting.
3.98 EPS before I7
3.73 EPS after I7
Now, let's factor in my theoretical 10% increase in endurance, and that 3.73 EPS becomes 4.1 EPS. Which quite well mirrors Frosticus' two vids.
Except, that Frosticus doens't have Life Insurance in the After I7. =\ Still, something somewhere seems to be increasing costs by around 10% it seems.
Whats even more interesting about Frosticus' two vids. The After I7 one, has the Blue Icon Accolade that the before didn't, which isn't it a +5 End boost? So, maybe its there too? Not sure of course, just kinda tossing out ideas now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I doubt Life Insurance is the cause of it all, since it's happening to CoH characters as well.
I had an interesting thing happen with my Stone/Elec brute yesterday. After completing the first Mako arc, I received the temp power "Power of the Leviathan," which is a +damage -recovery temp.
I had to at least try it out, ao I clicked the power, and three attacks later I was completely out of endurance, and it didn't come back at all until the power wore off. Absolutely 0 endurance for several minutes. I've had -regen temp powers before [Vaz Wasting Disease, the Lab Equipment effects, etc] but this was unbelievable.
[ QUOTE ]
I had an interesting thing happen with my Stone/Elec brute yesterday. After completing the first Mako arc, I received the temp power "Power of the Leviathan," which is a +damage -recovery temp.
I had to at least try it out, ao I clicked the power, and three attacks later I was completely out of endurance, and it didn't come back at all until the power wore off. Absolutely 0 endurance for several minutes. I've had -regen temp powers before [Vaz Wasting Disease, the Lab Equipment effects, etc] but this was unbelievable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tell me about it. When I got that temp power on my Stalker I was like "AWESOME!" and popped Elude and ran at an EB, thinking Elude would completely counter-act the end problem of the power... Not. It's like what MoG does to Health only to end, you CAN NOT gain endurance for the duration of the power.
Just a thought, on this whole Endurance problem. Could someone with a Stop Watch time the end ticks from a single Toggle with and without Hasten on?
Though iirc, most of the threads I've seen about this Issue have involved SS or SM... Seismic Smash and Knock out Blow are more or less the same attack with different animations, perhaps someone could sit down with KoB and use it 100 times in a row and record the end immediately before and after each use? I'd be willing to sit down and do the same for Seismic Smash.
[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking at this off and on for a few months (since I7 was released) and haven't found any replicatable evidence for it. I have seen enough reports from enough disparate sources that I believe there is something funky happening, but so far, I've not been able to track it down.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've noticed a reduction in endurance since i7 was released, but I assumed it was due to more endurance-affecting enemies than a change to my powers - perhaps this is where the problem is coming from?
Nope, this issue is independent of villian grp/type faced. Endurance draining villian effects are plainly evident, ie Freaks/Malta Sappers, etc.
What many of us are experiencing is abnormal loss/failure to regain endurance post I7. This problem exists on both sides of CoX so it's something in the code.
My bet is probably a coded line which overcalculates the cost of all powers. The problem is that some builds will never see this problem because they are inherently economical, so those playing them never notice any appreciable loss. Conversely, those with 'expensive' builds see the endurance loss very quickly.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking at this off and on for a few months (since I7 was released) and haven't found any replicatable evidence for it. I have seen enough reports from enough disparate sources that I believe there is something funky happening, but so far, I've not been able to track it down.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've noticed a reduction in endurance since i7 was released, but I assumed it was due to more endurance-affecting enemies than a change to my powers - perhaps this is where the problem is coming from?
[/ QUOTE ]
"It is that balance, the ground between EB and AV, where the PvP struggle should exist. Where a 1v1 becomes a struggle of equals, and 1vMany gives the benefit to the 1."
Freedom: Fireocity, Electro Imp, Gotya
Infinity: Meteor Storm, Mutai Kid, General Bot, Da Smasher
[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking at this off and on for a few months (since I7 was released) and haven't found any replicatable evidence for it. I have seen enough reports from enough disparate sources that I believe there is something funky happening, but so far, I've not been able to track it down.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're really committed to fixing this bug, give us a way to log the endurance bar, the way we can currently log damage dealt and received. This could be activated via a command, analogous to how "/showfps 1" and "/netgraph 1" work. It would be a lot of data, because it would have to be timestamped and show recovery as well as drains, but it would give you what you need to debug the problem.
Being a developer myself I know these things can be a real bear to pin down.
- Kris
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
heh...possible solution? Double stamina's affect (and quick recovery) and cut in half all endurance costs....
Wishful thinking, but wouldn't that be sweet?
I've noticed this on my stone/fire tank quite a bit, she just turned 32 and I copied her to test to respec and try out a new build w/ lvl 35 enhancments. On live her attacks have no end reduce, and all toggles have at least one. On test all toggles had one or two, still no edurance reduction on attacks. and her end was gone after one mob (maybe 6-8 deathspores in creys). On live it's not that great, but not that bad, either. I'm glad to see this because I've been trying to find a way to perfect her build...maybe it's not all her fault.
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Virtue-CoH
Jordan Lee 50 ma/regen scrapper
ReapersAdvocate 50 BS/regen scrapper
Sara's Screams 50 sonic/dev blaster and 510 badges
Anarchy's Maiden 50 kat/regen scrapper
Olivete 50 Stone/Fire Tanker
@Jordan Lee
[ QUOTE ]
Nope, this issue is independent of villian grp/type faced. Endurance draining villian effects are plainly evident, ie Freaks/Malta Sappers, etc.
What many of us are experiencing is abnormal loss/failure to regain endurance post I7. This problem exists on both sides of CoX so it's something in the code.
My bet is probably a coded line which overcalculates the cost of all powers. The problem is that some builds will never see this problem because they are inherently economical, so those playing them never notice any appreciable loss. Conversely, those with 'expensive' builds see the endurance loss very quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm experiencing the same thing, but rather than being totally dismissed in the first word how about we consider it as a possibility and rule it out through evidence.
Maybe it IS my imagination, but I have noticed a significant increase in the amount of times I've seen endurance being drained and by alot more villain types than before in my Combat window.
For example, Clockwork never used to bother me at all on their endurance drain - nowadays I can't work through a Clockwork mission without having to stop every group or two. Same character, same build. There are two areas to look at here without dismissing things outright.
I have a kat/regen only just made 21. And I noticed an end problem around level 18 or so which would have been around 9/21. Up until then I had zero end problems with only Quick Recovery one slotted with endmod, but now even after three slotting it, I find myself with very low end sometimes. Course it only takes a couple of seconds to regen it, but I never really had to stop to end rest since level 4.
The only pool powers I have are hasten and ss. I stopped using hasten to see if maybe the crash was it, but it's not. I don't have hasten on auto fire so I know when hasten is on and off.
Since I'm a regen I do keep an eye on my health and end was never a problem except against long fights against HUGE mobs. Also since I'm only 21, I'm very inf poor so I don't have well slotted powers, and DOs only. No EndRed except for ss and and integration which I like to leave on all the time. I keep Quick Recovery enh green. No fly or jump enh anywhere.
Something I do notice is even after I attack and in between mob attacks I can see my end drop more than usual. It almost feels like I'm getting drained by someone. I've been mostly fighting the sort of mobs you find in Steel or Sky so just the usual villain groups.
I will bet anything it has something to do with the fix for the invisible mob bug. :P
"Fragments came floating into his mind like bits of wood drifting down a stream, and he fished them out and fitted them together."
- Elizabeth Gray Vining
I'll add myself to the list of people whose end keeps poofing, at first I thought that It was all the Carnies I was fighting, but last week, I noticed my end was running out every fight with no end drain, fighting DE in the Crash Site.
I though it was my slotting, as my i7 respec hadn't really been tested against anything other then Carnival at that point. But tonight, I watch my end bar like a hawk, the results were... perplexing... It seemed that my attacks and shields would randomly forget that they had end-redux in them! For bursts of about two to three minutes, all my powers would be at full cost.
Since I had an empath with me, I did another test about something that had seemed off to me. After being hit with AB, I fought until they wore out.
While active my end was, as to be expected, inexhaustible. However, as soon as AB ran out, my end slammed down to zero in only six attacks.
Six attacks, plus my shields, used up 110 endurance from a character with three-slotted stamina. Not only did they seem to cost the normal, un-enhanced amount, they seemed to cost extra. After about thirty seconds, my end regen returned to normal and the costs went back down.
I have no idea what is causing this bug
and I know this probably isnt very helpful, but its damned irritating. Just thought I should share. 
01001001 00100000 01101100 01101001 01101011 01100101 00100000 01110000 01101001 01100101
I played my SS/INV for the first time since the last patch and...
I have it now too.
SB would (sometimes) initially give me 100% endurance, but endurance usage goes down more quickly than it would non-SB'd.
To top it off, it doesnt speed up my attack recharge.
Imagine being in the LRSF and having to use Jab and Punch because thats all you have endurance for. WHILE SPEED BOOSTED. And to speed up your attacks you have to pop Hasten. It was so bad OTHER people were asking me what was going on with me.
Something kooky is going on.
I have a stone/stone brute. having SB (3 end mod) and my stamina (3 end mod), my endurance drops really fast. we have noticed this recently. I think Stone melee is having issue because the moment i stop my endurance comes back really quick.
BTW I have noticed this change around LvL40-41 and my toon is at lvl44
[ QUOTE ]
I have a stone/stone brute. having SB (3 end mod) and my stamina (3 end mod), my endurance drops really fast. we have noticed this recently. I think Stone melee is having issue because the moment i stop my endurance comes back really quick.
BTW I have noticed this change around LvL40-41 and my toon is at lvl44
[/ QUOTE ]
I have always been able to drain my endurance using Stone melee under Speed Boost. When you get to chain those big, expensive attacks that much faster (SB is +50% attack rate) I'm not sure we can say that's indicative of the bug. Now, the speed at which you drain it can be indicative, because it used to take me a little while.
I duoed the Ghost of Scrapyard with the help of a /Kin Corruptor about 3 days before the buffed GM regen rates, so I remember the battle to stay in endurance distinctly. 
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
well it just hit me why i saw the change, the temp power from the lvl 30-35 mayhem mish is an end boost, that would explain my problems. now i feel embaressed.