Artistic Talent - Can it be learned?
By
CaptainScience,
Posted on: 2006-07-30 17:25 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
"Artistic Talent - Can it be learned?"
I'm going to re-state your question in the way I believe you intended it, "Can anyone learn to draw?"
Yes, anyone can learn to draw (barring physical limitations, etc). While some people possess more aptitude, or practiced more, or were encouraged more, I strongly believe ANYONE can learn to draw.
I wouldn't exactly call that 'horrible'. Infact, it seems like you have a fair amount of detail work down, but position/pose/posture/etc. seem to be an area that you're having trouble with. I don't know what your art-book collection entails, but I think if you find some beginner-level books on drawing anatomy (in your collection or somewhere else) and practice real hard... You can start to progress.
Of course, the main factor in progression in anything is believing you can in the first place. Think positive. Don't let small failings get you down. If you don't have a natural 'talent' for drawing, it takes longer to develop the skills. It happens. Don't get discouraged! Stiff upper lip!
And if it makes you feel any better, I get told all the time I'm a -fantastic- writer, but I don't believe any of it. Oh, sure, I do passable in short-stories, but when it comes to longer pieces of work, I fail horribly. And I -really- want to write something that'll last more then just a few snapshots in time. On top of that, my artistic skills leave a lot to be desired...
Keep it up. Hard work pays off, good things come to those that can wait, and patience in all things is a virtue. Good luck, fledgling artist!
Most art is similar...
do you think anyone can learn to play the guitar?
Do you think anyone can learn to play the piano?
I do. It just takes some people a hell of a lot more effort than others. It's a real bear actually... for an awful lot of people. You may even say that normally... for most people, it's not even worth the MASSIVE amounts of effort if they just don't have a natural talent for it. But of course, if it IS worth it to you to put in the massive amounts of work, and it sounds like it is... then there's really no drawback in keeping up the good work. However... consider that you'll progress about as fast as you have in the past... faster sometimes, slower other times.
Yes... you can get better. I'm sure you have already. But it's up to you if you want to go through the effort of being GOOD.
And art classes... I find things like that teach you how to use a particular medium instead of teach you how to draw. And there's a big difference...
Zeus - god of details
I understand your frurstation, while it's taken me years to be "happy" with my own skill level, style and or aptitude. I go crazy insane when I see the works of geniuses and the people I admire, because my brain and my heart says, "I want to draw like that".
Reality check first, we are all different, so wanting to be as good as another while an admirable goal is the kind of goal that could and probably should take years. You're only 23.
Looking at your work, my first critique is bone & muscular underwork, and facial structure. These are basics, these are mathematical, they can be applied in a universal formula that is the same in every detailed work you can find. You can't ignore them, and usually the sign of a bad drawing is the lack of these things.
I'm not talking about exaggeration, the best artists use these building blocks: eyes, limbs, torsos, and piece them together like jigsaw puzzles that you and I have no clue where to start first.
But that is style.
Learn your basics first, memorize and beat those to death, till your arm falls off, and you will know these basic mechanics "without thinking". You'll be able to shape a bunch of ovals and lines into an amazing depiction from your imagination, and it will make sense.
That said, no one can teach you to have an imagination. You either have that, the drive, the unseen spark to put something 2D down from nothing, or you don't.
I went to art college for illustration, and switched majors because practically speaking graphic design would pay my bills faster. It's something I regret but here's the thing. You can never stop learning, never stop discovering, being inspired by great art.
And that doodle you've done since you were 5 will someday be something more to you, if you apply some vigilance, and ofcourse hard work. Talent IS innate, but passion to me is more important. Otherwise all we are left with are carbon copies of things already out there with little to no life in them.
If I were you I would work on your anatomy, your faces, and here's where I differ from a lot of art teachers. Trace! Trace, trace, trace...
The reason you trace is to SEE the lines. To break down the pattern of how they connect, how they simplify shapes, how they are intricate and how they can make what we think of... a visual end.
Don't trace to blindly draw like someone else. Try and figure out why did they use 3 lines to do what others use 12 for, or viseversa. Tracing is the best way to make your brain learn shapes, and memorize them into second hand drawing.
That said, there can be no excuse for NOT drawing from life. From observing life, observing light and shade, and form and movement, and memorizing those into your own style.
Even Anime which is a generic almost mathematical approach, by mathematical I mean it is easily recognize by everyone who does it. Even that, has tons of real life observations that add amazing details to the final image. It is those details that make the difference between a doodle and a masterpiece.
I have a friend who can doodle armor and pattern, and weaponry the way other people write the alphabet. It is an innate skill he has, but it is not an unlearnable skill. HE got it through practice, through passion, and through observing not only what he loves about those details but what he has read about them, self taught his brain to remember, oh this is why a sword is made this way, and that is why chain mail links the way it does.
Get yourself a sketch book, and fill the first 30 pages with your doodles, fill every corner of every page, doodle on top of doodles till it all looks like one color. On the next 30 pages, draw everything in sight, and everything you can "people watch". Draw them as their moving, draw the details, and WRITE down what you just did.
IF you design a great costume, weapon, car, put some lines and arrows around it, explaining how it works, what colors you want it to be. These notes will help you redraw it later.
On the 3rd part of the sketchbook, clip a magazine picture on one side, and your freehand "trace" on the other side. This little excersize will help you be patient with seeing the details, you can't rush your drawings, even if you have seen other artists go at lightning speed. That is them, that is not you. Maybe someday, it's something to reach for, but for now you're not in a race.
Anything we love takes time, and if we put enough of our energy positively into it, you'll get the results you're looking for... Good luck.
LJ
#1 indicator for if you can become a decent or even great artists is dedication. I know this first hand cuz I don't have time to draw... hmmm yup, I still suck.
[ QUOTE ]
"Artistic Talent - Can it be learned?"
I'm going to re-state your question in the way I believe you intended it, "Can anyone learn to draw?"
Yes, anyone can learn to draw (barring physical limitations, etc). While some people possess more aptitude, or practiced more, or were encouraged more, I strongly believe ANYONE can learn to draw.
[/ QUOTE ]
/agree
I mean, look at the people on these boards... you can see the progress in some of us <@_@> I used to *never* do color work... ever since some of the people here (Especially The_PMD) explained some photoshop basics... I can work in color <o.@>!
My lineart has improved drastically in the last 5 years as well; if I showed you some of my old stuff... you'd laugh. I'm not "talented"... but yet, I'm getting better constantly. I'm not the best by any means, and I doubt I ever will be - part of that is my narrow focus though; and my lack of self-discipline; others who put their whole selves into their art though... you can see it.
Drawing is a craft as much as something like woodworking - its very complex; and it is a very unique craft... you can't measure every little angle and whatnot; but just the same; you *can* learn it as long as you have the desire and patience.
In fact, thats what I think the *true* definition of "talent" is; ever notice alot of the people we hear called "Very talented" in various areas, have been doing it since they were 5 or 6 years old? >.>
Dedication, encouragement, a desire to improve... those are what makes someone talented; nobody starts at the top (If they tell you they did, they're lying).
I'm going to try that advice above with the practice steps. For the doodling on the first 30 pages, anything I should aim for or avoid? I don't want to teach myself how to draw something wrong.
number one piece of advice i always see given to aspiring artists is to get some books about drawing and/or take classes.
from my own observations, i suggest you keep posting your drawings here because the fan art forum is by far the most supportive forum there is. just be willing to take a fair amout of constructive criticism
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
I suck absolutely BUT this forum section inspires me. and really really interests me.
Get a Deviant Art account, or link frequently here to a livejournal where you can post 
And yes, get used to critical comments.
I've known a few people who took classes that a friend of mine offers, and I've seen them progress amazingly well. What you might also think of is "where are your high points". You've got good perspective. Perhaps your area of expertise might be more along the lines of architecture or backgrounds.
My high school art teacher adored my loose furry-anthro drawings because he himself was terrible at curves. He'd been trained as an architecht. He knew all the basics - color theory, proportion, shading techniques, all that stuff. But when it came time to put pen to paper he felt most comfortable - and was quite good at - using a ruler and compass and other tools to get clean straight lines down.
Don't be afraid to use lots of reference materials. However - do cite your references, mmkay? For character refs, muscle magazines, health mags and fashion books (never mind the smell of perfume samples...) are excellent for poses, clothing folds, and anatomy.
What I will say is this: Do NOT expect to get good at drawing comic style art by copying comic books. The best comic artists learned *professionally* at art schools. The 'hot new' artists, many of whom had *terrible* work but were quite flashy and colorful, did not go to art school. Rob Liefeld for instance, inspired a lot of people to draw... And then 6 or 7 years later when those kids grew up and started looking back, they all unanimously declared that work to be absolutely crap. Proportions wrong, missing body parts, nonexistant backgrounds, etc.
You're much better off learning the basics as suggested before, because without those you won't really get much out of it. I consider myself to be 'adequate' as an artist. I can get my point across, and I know my limitations and avoid too much challenge because I'm *not* intending to be a pro. I do have 50 or so pages of a comic drawn. I do have other projects. I am a cyberpet artist. But backgrounds? Landscapes? I suxxorz at those, let me tell ya... And I can't do machinery. I can draw a dragon, but not a droid... So I stick to what I am comfortable with.
http://lethe-gray.deviantart.com/ that's my da account. If you create one, send me a note. I'm always online and I do critique with *improvement* not *flaming* in mind.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
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I'm going to try that advice above with the practice steps. For the doodling on the first 30 pages, anything I should aim for or avoid? I don't want to teach myself how to draw something wrong.
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I say draw. Draw a lot. When you draw things wrong, you look at it and go... that looks wrong. I'll try to avoid that next time. It's really the only way to establish a good foundation for drawing. As you go along, some books can help, some classes, advice from others works, but most of this is just tweeking what you are already doing. If you aren't doing it, then no amount of advice will help. You gotta just... DO IT.
[ QUOTE ]
"Artistic Talent - Can it be learned?"
I'm going to re-state your question in the way I believe you intended it, "Can anyone learn to draw?"
Yes, anyone can learn to draw (barring physical limitations, etc). While some people possess more aptitude, or practiced more, or were encouraged more, I strongly believe ANYONE can learn to draw.
[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone can learn anything, but certain people just have their own inherent abilities that sets them apart from people. While everyone can learn, in this case, how to draw, not everyone has the ineherent ability to be an artist. And by ability, I mean physically, and more importantly, mentally. I believe different people have different abilities - I've witnessed this by going to an art college. Some people can draw, and some people can't. I don't want to sound cocky at all, so I hope that I don't come off that way. I'm just being a realist.
Sometimes, some things are just not for some people.
But then again, being human, you can adapt if you work on it enough.
(Unless you're not human.. if that's the case.. then.. no offense.)
Well, you lot have me convinced.
Time to dig out ye olde arte pad and see if I can't turn my own artistic skills from 'suck' to 'not-quite-suck'...
Just wish I had time between sleeping, eating, and gaming. >_>
Edit: To the OP, in regards to drawing something 'wrong'... There is no such thing as 'wrong' in art. If -you're- happy with what results, and how it results... What the heck does everyone else's opinion matter? Unless you're getting paid to do it, hell with everyone else. They can offer insight and advice, but if you're fine with something... Just don't take it.
I also believe that anyone can learn anything, though unlike others here, I also believe there is an absolute limit to an individual's abilities in a given subject. That limit likely stems from how each person's brain operates. Naturally, logical people will excel at logical subjects and artistic people will excel at artistic subjects.
For example, I would say that my brain operates 95% logical, 5% artistic. Math and sciences I soak up like a dry sponge soaks up water, languages are not as easy for me to learn, but I still have little trouble doing so.
Artistically, I have spent a good deal of my life playing musical instruments, but I am mediocre at best as a musician, and I have no ability for original composition. Writing; I can put words together just fine (because of my ability with languages) but I don't have the artistic gift for making a story interesting. Drawing; well, I screw up stick figures.
All of those are not from a lack of determination or practice, I just have my own absolute limits to my abilities at them. I keep trying to do those artistic things because, honestly, the ease of learning the logical things makes them boring to me and I'd rather be interested in what I'm doing.
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All of those are not from a lack of determination or practice, I just have my own absolute limits to my abilities at them. I keep trying to do those artistic things because, honestly, the ease of learning the logical things makes them boring to me and I'd rather be interested in what I'm doing.
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I think we're getting off the subject here, it's not that we should accept our limitations... Will we all be Da Vincis in our lifetime? No, and that shouldn't be the goal. The goal is to get better at something we love to do, and that's draw and or create art.
A lot of artists start with stick figure sketching, and they do it so lightly that when they draw over that, you could never tell it was there.
You asked me what to do on those first 30 pages. Try this:
sketches
1) Pay attention to your proportions.
Do - make a head that sits evenly on the shoulders.
Don't - make a head that is equal to the chest in size, and has tiny shoulders that couldn't possibly support it.
Do - make the shoulders symmetrical if doing a front or back view, meaning the space from the neck to the deltoid is the same on both sides.
You probably know the 3 head width rule, where the shoulders should be as wide as if you drew a head on either side of the ears. For some over exaggerated heros with lots of bull necks, that might even be 1 and 1/2 heads on either side. Up to you...
Do - as in figure 3, make a bunch of ovals and lines to indicate your skeletal structure.
Naturally the space from deltoid to elbow is SHORTER than from the elbow to the hand. This applies also from the oval of the pelvis to the knee, is LONGER than from the knee to the foot.
Do - make an egg shaped oval to indicate your rib cage, dozens of muscles go over this, but if your ribcage is too small, you'll end up with a puny looking figure.
If it's too big, you'll be drawing hulk width normal people.
Rule of thumb, a person's torso from the clavicles to the groin is about 3 heads long. I'm using some anatomy terms, if you don't know them, LEARN them asap, they will help you be a better artist. Look them up on Wikipedia, and google them in iimages if you need to see one for reference.
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And that's something I forgot to mention earliar.
You'll need a lot of reference, keep a clip file of everything you want to draw. Get one of those accordian folders, label them men, women, kids, cars, buildings, animals... whatever, then go get some magazines and put the pages into the categories.
That way if you need to know what 3 figures look like together, you can go to it, and have something to jump start your brain. I use old sports mags for multiple figures, football players always make a great fight scene. Muscle mags are great for reference, as are model mags for faces and hair.
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Anyway this is what I did with your drawing. I elongated it first to show you the difference in the proportions. If you have doubts, redraw your pieces longer, it's a good excersize because we won't always be drawing perfect figures, and sometimes you want foreshortening.
I thought your hands were quite good, and I didn't change them, just hastily traced over them. But as you can see your legs are too short, watch that running out of room on the page habit. You can work on feet later, first I think you should get the structure right.
I put the ovals and lines over the elongated figure to show you the guide you can use, if you wanted to redraw it. And lastly I did a quick correction on the feet in my version, just to show you a semi finished example.
You asked me what to draw in the first 30 pages, I would say redraw all the pieces you like of your own work, and then whatever you've learned from that, put it into a new piece. And don't forget to show us your progress...
Good luck!
LJ
Hey MECH_Flair,
RE: "Artistic Talent - Can it be learned?"
A lot of good responses have already been posted, here's hoping I can add something useful, too.
If by "talent" you mean that uncanny, innate "natural ability" some people seem to have - then no, obviously. Thats a matter of their particular brain/nervous system being wired from birth in a way that makes "artistic" pursuits easier for them. Thats genetics.
But if you change that to "Artistic Skill" ... well, by all means YES! Absolutely. Unless you are severely disabled in some ways, anybody can learn the skill of "art." (heck, I've seen people without arms paint with a brush held between their teeth.) Sure, some of us have to work harder at it than others, but thats the same with anything.
It really just comes down to: desire, instructional aid, and practice. Do you want to learn art? (its obvious that you do, from the post to the examples you've posted). You've taken some courses, bought some books (and I, assume, read/worked from them) - thats great! Don't stop taking courses, finding new books, seeking out online tutorials - in short, don't stop learning. ...and, of course: practice, practice, practice.
...okay, waitaminute - let me step back for a minute, here. There's a thing that we all do, and sometimes its not helpful, but it is innately "human." We look at other people's abilities and compare ours to them... and then we make some sort of judgement of our own worth based on that. "Wow, his work is SO much better than mine..." Its kind of impossible for us not to do this. Just try to not get carried away by it - try to realize you're doing it and "take it with a grain of salt."
There will always be someone better that you (better than me, better then them, better than that guy over there). Always someone. Big. Deal. So what? They will never be able to be YOU. They can never see the world in exactly the way you do, will never bring your unique life experience to their work. You have a unique and inalienable quality and value that you will bring to anything you do. Always remember that.
Who is it that you do the art for? Sure, we all want others to see and appreciate our work. ...but ultimately, your art is an expression of you. And you don't "suck." Unless you are dead, you are merely a "Work In Progress," and you'll always be. And thats a wonderful thing.
Sure, it can be frustrating. We're all our own worst critics (except those few who think they can do no wrong, who think they're the the best thing since sliced bread - I'll leave them out of the equation, they've lost touch with reality). Its fine to see that you have room for improvement. I'm sure if you ask any real great artist and they will probably tell you of someone else's work that they aspire to. Just don't let it dimish your own self worth. Anyone can improve - it just takes practice and study. If its something you desire to do - then do it because you love it. I find that sometimes I trip and fall into a bad mode of thinking: "I have to do this for Mr. so-and-so" - when I should be thinking: "I want to do this for me, because I love drawing - it brings me joy!".
Gosh, am I getting long-winded!
I especially like your first peice - it shows a great deal of promise. There's proof there that you've got a sense for the form in 3D, not just flat.
Do take photographs of real things and real people. Draw freehand from them, but also throw some tracing paper on them and trace them, dissect them - try to understand the perspective of the objects and people, and the proportions of things in relation to other things. But also try to draw from "life," too - ie: not from a photo. If you can get a family member or friend to sit still for a little bit, - and still life and landscape. Even quick sketches. There's a certain something that your eyes/mind perceive in real 3D that gets flattened-out in a photo. Its that sense of "this is in front of that" in true 3D. Try covering one eye and looking at something, then uncover the eye - flip back and forth a bit. Its often subtle to catch because intellectually you know whats in front - but you kinda have to let go of that "knowing" sometimes and instead really "draw what you see."
Also, do Not be affraid of mistakes. The world will not end if everythings is not perfect. If you draw something and it looks somehow wrong (sometimes, merely looking at it upside-down, or backwards, or holding it up to a mirror can help spot this) - then throw a piece of tracing paper over it and get a red pencil and try to work it out. Many instructors feel that this is the mark of a really good artist - the ability to see something thats "off" and them work through it to find a better solution.
I personally think highly of "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards as a great eye-opener, mind-expanding, artistic instruction book/method. Learning to "see" is an important part of learning to draw. Check it out at your local library - see if it speaks to you.
And hey, you mentioned: "I'm a pretty good writer and pretty creative" - and thats great! Absolutely do stretch your creative muscles in writing and any other non-art forms, too.
Thanks for all the feedback.
I think Oceanborn gets what I mean the most. From my perspective, I started out naturally a good writer (my father was a writer) and with a little practice, I feel I'm quite good. Where as I practice a lot at drawing and don't seem to make a lot of head way.
I read somewhere that illustrated story telling is the oldest method, dating back to cave wall drawings, and comics are essentially the same thing - some of those frames have no dialouge but tell important parts of the story regardless. That's how I really want to express my stories. Thus my frustration.
LadyJudgement. Holy crap. You could be an art teacher. I really appreciate the time you put into your reply, and it's helped a lot. I do have a filing cabinet for magazine clippings categorized, and I'm working on that still. I actually didn't know about the 3 head shoulder length rule. I must've been absent that day, literaly. Sincerely though, unlike writing I feel I am unable to self-teach myself how to draw, so a reply like that with it's criticism and how-to really helps me a great deal. I'll pick up a DA account and hope for more critiquing on par with your own. It was interesting to see how your methods made my drawing look the way I had wanted it to come out.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone.
I'm teaching myself how to draw too, but it is very difficult without some kind of active feedback. I have read lots and studied lots of pictures, analyzing them, and also whenever I look around at people I see things, like if I'm standing in line somewhere, I'll stare at other peoples heads and look at the shapes, the shadows, the highlights of the hair, and so forth (I really hope that's not too creepy!).
I'm actually taking a basic illustration class this fall, I'm really looking forward to it. I hope to learn some more 'basic foundations' and improve myself dramatically!
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LadyJudgement. Holy crap. You could be an art teacher.
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Lol. Actually I am an art teacher. A retired one. But in college while taking boring graphic design classes I took an elective on Comic Book Illustration taught by a small time inker in the industry back then.
He like me, was a much better teacher than an artist, and when I was teaching 6th grade in my hometown, I offered an after school class on Comic Book Illustration, based on what he taught me, and what I had learned on my own.
The class was a big success, and I had to turn kids away regretfully. We took 10 from each of the four 6th grade classes, and had a room to ourselves after school for an hour.
I wish this kind of thing was taught today, comics not only teach children to further their imagination, but it also includes the basics of anatomy, perspective, composition, and ofcourse color.
I will look for that 3 head width chart for you, I'm sure I saw it again online somewhere. If not I may have it in one of my old books gathering dust downstairs. I'll try to scan it later.
Well gotta go draw some cowgirls for money... glad to be of help.
LJ
holy hell you people have inspired me to draw again, looks like im no going to be bored for awhile I need to draw I want to get better. even though this is not my thread thanks to all of you your words inspired me to even try to draw again lol
Not exactly the chart I was looking for, but this will do... I made this up from some guy dressing up like the man of steel. His body is shall we say less than average, but that's okay, if you can draw normal people, you can exaggerate that later to draw superheroes...
Normal Human Anatomy
The 7 head rule applies to most of us, however most heroes are 8 heads high, and that's not counting taller or wider heroes who might be 10 heads or 12 heads, and 5 heads wide. You get the idea. But you can use this ratio no matter what, if you want to draw someone shorter, make your basic head measurement smaller... and viceversa for taller people. This should keep your frontal figures in proportion.
Good luck!
LJ
Wow... Go LJ.
There is a book you should pick up called Drawing on the Right side of the Brain
It has some really great exercises and explanations of how to see.
I've always liked drawing, and I've always loved comics. I used to not take notes in school to save pages to draw comics in them instead. Once I got into High School at 9th grade, I had my first really great art teacher. I took her art classes every year, sometimes multiple times. I'm now 22 having graduated at 17, almost 23 (next month).
And I'm still a pretty crappy artist.
For starters, it takes me forever, which isn't very "complete your work" friendly. Second, I just don't feel I've made much of any progress. Having taken so many art classes, I've seen what good artists look like. They draw what they want, it comes out how they want it, and they can do so in a timely fashion.
I've always felt that much like many other things, artistic talent is either something you have or you don't. I've always figured if I practice enough, I'd be good too, but it's getting discouraging.
I'm a pretty good writer and pretty creative. I can come up with the story lines and such, and I get excited about them. So it becomes really frustrating when I can't express and illustrate the story accordingly.
I've got shelves full of art books but I find they don't really help me at all. Occassionally I'll pick up something of use, but I keep coming right back to my dilemma. No progress. It's like I'm stuck at this level of artistic ability.
Here's a few of my randomly selected works. Hoping maybe someone can give me some guidance. Note that when I call my work crappy, I don't feel I'm being pesimistic or under-confident, but I'm being realistic. Looking for realistic feedback.
Ok, here they are:
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/2975/agonyhu2.jpg
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8693/flairoz0.jpg
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/157...oforcusst9.jpg