Frequently Asked Questions about I7 Defense Scaler

Arcanaville · 05-03-2006 03:30 PM

Frequently Asked Questions about the I7 Defense Scaling Change

The Basics

Q1: What change does I7 make to Defense?

A1: None.

Q2: I don't understand, doesn't I7 have a Defense Scaling change?

A2: Yes. But its not a change to Defense. Its a change to Critter Accuracy.

Q3: Okay, what exactly was changed in I7?

A3: In I7, tohit bonuses normally given to critters of different (higher) Rank, and given to critters that are higher level than you, are going to be changed to accuracy bonuses.

Q4: I don't understand. What's the difference? Why was this change made?

A4: This takes some explanation. We need to start with how tohit works today in I6. Basically, whenever anything attacks anything, their chance to hit the target is based on a couple of numbers. First, the attacker has a Base Tohit probability. Its the probability that they will hit you assuming no other factors are in play. For minions, its 50%. For players, its 75%.

Defense reduces this chance tohit. If the target has defense, then the chance for the attacker to hit the target is
(Base ToHit - Defense).

Attackers can be buffed in a number of ways. For example, they can run tactics. Lets say the attacker has tactics running: tactics is a tohit buff. ToHit buffs and debuffs are factored into tohit by being added to or subtracted from Base tohit. So the net chance to hit the target becomes
(Base ToHit + Tactics - Defense).

Attackers can also have Accuracy. Accuracy, in the CoX technical sense of the word, functions differently than tohit. Certain bonuses are Accuracy, and not tohit. Accuracy Enhancements are Accuracy bonuses. The Weapon Draw bonus is also an Accuracy bonus, not tohit. Accuracy is applied after all tohit and defense factors are taken into account, and is multiplied. So in this case, the net overall chance tohit is really:

Accuracy x (BaseToHit + Tactics - Defense)

The chance to hit anything obeys certain boundaries. In CoX, you can never have less than 5% chance to hit anything, and never more than 95% chance to hit anything. So bounds-checking takes place:

Bounds ( Accuracy x (BaseToHit + Tactics - Defense) )

Where Bounds( X ) means "if X is less than 5%, then the chance is 5%; if X is greater than 95%, then the chance is 95%, otherwise the chance is just X."

This is actually precisely how tohit worked at release. However, around I4 when the arenas came out, a problem arose. It was possible for very high Defense players (Elude, MoG) to have so high defense, it was greater than the attacker's Base Tohit, and any tohit buffs they might have been running. What happens when that is true? When that is true, the (BaseToHit + ToHitbuffs - Defense) term becomes negative. And then when you multiply by Accuracy, you get a bigger negative number. And since that's lower than 5%, the tohit chance became 5%, always. In other words, with enough Defense, a player could make Accuracy completely worthless. (Why did 6-slot dmg/acc HOs not do anything to Perma-MoG scrappers? *That's* why.)

To prevent this from happening, some time after I4, the devs altered the way tohit worked. To the best of my knowledge, its the *only* time they made any significant change to how tohit works (as we would put it - its not how the devs would put it, but thats a really long discussion). To prevent high defense from "Deep Flooring" tohit, they added another Bounds Check:

Bounds ( Accuracy x Bounds(BaseToHit + Tactics - Defense) )

Basically, the intermediate term is checked against the 5%/95% floor/ceiling *before* Accuracy is applied, and then *after* its applied again. This means Defense cannot drive tohit any lower than 5% before Accuracy is taken into account. This change definitely happened long ago, back in I4.

Thats how tohit works. Now why was a change made? Because tohit severely penalizes Defense, and the critters were getting too much of it..

In I6, minions have base 50% tohit. Lts have 57.5%. Bosses have 65%. AVs have 75%. In addition, +1s have +5% tohit. +2s have +10%, and so on. So a +3 Boss (in I6) has effectively a BaseToHit of 80%.

Lets imagine two scrappers, one with 25% defense, and one with 50% resistance, both fighting even minions. The 25% defense scrapper gets hit 50% - 25% = 25% of the time, for full damage. The 50% resistance scrapper gets hit 50% - 0% = 50% of the time, for half damage. Both, on average, take the same amount of damage over time. This is roughly balanced.

Now put them in front of that +3 Boss. The defense set gets hit 80% - 25% = 55% of the time, for full damage. The 50% resistance set gets hit 80% - 0% = 80% of the time, for half damage. In effect, the 50% resistance set takes 40% of the total damage thrown at it, while the 25% defense set takes 55% of the total damage thrown at it. What the heck happened here?

What happened is that adding tohit is not proportional to Defense. It has a large effect on high defense, and a small effect on low defense. Tohit, in essence, is a Defense Counter.

That's fine: everything should have a counter. But the problem was every single LT, and every single Boss, and every single AV, and every single EVERYTHING above even level had it. Maybe tactics should be a Defense counter, but not all LTs.

The problem is that the devs designed and balanced Defense and Resistance assuming 50% tohit, the magnitude of even level minions. Everywhere else, Defense would quickly fall apart. The devs wanted higher Rank and higher Level things to be more "accurate" (hit more often), the problem is that they had two ways to do that, and they picked the wrong one: the one that was unfair to Defense.

The I7 Defense Scaler fixes that. In I7, critters will no longer get higher ToHit if they are higher Rank or Level, they will now get higher Accuracy.

Its for this reason specifically that I'm advocating changing the name from the I7 Defense Scaler to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler.

PvP

Q1: How does this affect PvP?

A1: It doesn't. The I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler obviously can't affect PvP.

Q2: If it doesn't, shouldn't it?

A2: No need. In a patch around I5, for precisely the same reason the devs are putting in the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler (because I told them to ), they altered Player accuracy in PvP combat: Players attacking Players all have base 50% tohit, instead of 75%, which is exactly what the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler does to critters in I7.

Q3: I thought I heard that in PvP, players get +25% more defense, not lower tohit. In fact, the patch notes say that.

A3: Yeah. Originally, it was called a tohit reduction. A lot of people complained about "PvP driving nerfs." I suggested five separate times in various threads that mathematically, a -25% tohit for the attacker was identical to a +25% defense buff for the defender, so its just as easy to see the change as a buff rather than a nerf. When the patch notes came out, thats how it was ultimately described. Completely coincidentally, I'm sure.

(Actually, I'm not kidding. This is one of the threads in question. Note how Castle describes it in the first post, my observation in the last post of the thread, and note the date: before the patch notes were amended to add the note about the Defense buff in PvP. I should at least get a badge or something ).

Curious Effects

Q1: What's this I hear about Elude and MoG being nerfed?

A1: They aren't. They are unchanged.

Q2: But I hear that with I7, the floor is no longer always 5%; that's a nerf to Elude and MoG which used to be able to floor things to 5%, right?

A2: Well, sort of.

First of all, since I4 Elude and MoG have never been able to floor everything to 5%. The intermediate floor guarantees that so long as the attacker has any accuracy. And critters have accuracy: its been confirmed, for example, that all Malta minions have +20% accuracy (1.2), and Gunslingers themselves have +100% accuracy (2.0). MoG and Elude was *never* flooring them to 5% since I4.

It *is* true that in I7, accuracy is going to be a lot more common, and stronger, because all Rank and Level Bonuses are going to be converted into more and more Accuracy. So overall, Elude and MoG's performance is going to go down when fighting those things.

Q3: That's broken. They need to fix that.

A3: Its not broken. Its exactly, precisely what's supposed to happen.

In I6, Elude can floor an even minion to 5%. That's 90% damage mitigation. That is Elude's maximum performance against even level minions. Elude can floor a +2 Boss to 5% also; that's 93% damage mitigation. Elude is stronger against a Boss than an even minion. That means Elude scales upward to stronger values against higher Rank and Level foes (until its finally overwhelmed) in I6, relative to Resistance that has constant strength regardless of attacker.

In I7, "normal" defense will now scale correctly - meaning, it will have the same strength against foes of any Rank or Level, making it comparable to Resistance. It would be unfair if "ultrahigh" defense also scaled *better* than Resistance. In I7, Defense of any strength, and any value, will scale correctly - it will have constant mitigation strength. It won't break down, and it won't go up either. That's the correct behavior.

Q4: But MoG is now even more worthless in I7 than in I6.

A4: Yes. So fix MoG.

Q5: So because Defense now "Scales" upward, +3s will be no more difficult than evens; Defense is now UBER!

A5: No. +3s will still hit you more often than evens (and harder). Just like they currently hit Invulns, and Regens, more often. It will just be the same amount of "more often" not "ridiculously more often."

Q6: I heard this does something to tohit debuffs?

A6: Sort of. Because tohit debuffs subtract from tohit, just like Defense does, lowering critter's tohit simultaneously helps Defense and tohit debuffs in exactly the same way. So just as Defense scales correctly in I7, so tohit debuffs also scale correctly.

Q7: But I heard tohit debuffs were nerfed also?

A7: Unrelated to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler, tohit debuff enhancements were put on Schedule B. Where they belong, with tohit buff enhancements, and Defense enhancements. This does weaken slotted tohit debuffs, but its not directly related to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler.

Q8: I've heard Luck inspirations are even more uber now.

A8: You heard right. Because there is, in a sense, an effective limit on how much Defense will do anything at all (45%), two (small) lucks will automatically do as much as any amount of Defense you can stack on top of yourself by any other means. Two Lucks = Max Possible Defense, barring tohit buffs and Defense Debuffs.

But was there ever a time when Luck inspirations *weren't* uber?

Technical Details

Q1: What *precisely* does the I7 Defe- uh, Critter Accuracy Scaler do?

A1: In I6, this is the base tohit of various Ranks:

Minion: 50%
LT: 57.5%
Boss: 65%
AV: 75%

And in I6, for each level higher than you, the critter gets +5% tohit. Actually, the game uses this table:
0 1
1 1.05
2 1.1
3 1.15
4 1.2
5 1.25
6 1.3
7 1.35
8 1.41
9 1.48
10 1.68
11 1.8
12 1.95
13 2.1
14 2.2
Subtract one from the numbers, and add to the critter's tohit. Its +5% per level out to +7, and past that point you're probably dead anyway (This is one of Iakona's tables. Unfortunately, the I7 tables are not where Iakona looks for them anymore).

In I7, the Rank tohit increases are going to be replaced by an Accuracy increase that is comparable. And that number is the critter's base tohit divided by 50%:

Minion: 1.0
LT: 1.15
Boss: 1.3
AV: 1.5

The level increases are a bit trickier. The way I believe the devs chose to handle them is to calibrate the Level Scaler to minions, as they often do most everything. So a +5% tohit buff on a minion is +10% accuracy (50% * 1.1 = 55%). So for the first 5 levels, the accuracy bonus is going to be +10% per level.

What happens after +5? After +5 I believe the accuracy bonus will freeze at +50% (1.5), and then the critters will start to get tohit bonuses again, starting small, and working back up. So +5% for a while, then quickly race away. It won't matter much, because no one fights things that high any more anyway.

How do I know all of this? Some of this has been publicly confirmed; i.e. the Rank bonuses. As for the rest, I'll say that what I've said here is more or less what I would have guessed it was going to be when it was first announced, and I have it on good authority I appear to be a very good guesser.

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Arcanaville · 05-03-2006 03:55 PM

Note: I will try to maintain and update this FAQ as people ask other questions about the mechanics of the I7 Scaler that I didn't anticipate. But actual discussion of the I7 Scaler should be done in the Official Thread set aside for that purpose here.

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Warcabbit · 05-03-2006 04:13 PM

Q: But doesn't that lower ToHitDebuffs in PvP?

(Missing but logical question. I believe the answer is 'Yes, it does. Maybe they'll fix it. Maybe not.)

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Arcanaville · 05-03-2006 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Q: But doesn't that lower ToHitDebuffs in PvP?

(Missing but logical question. I believe the answer is 'Yes, it does. Maybe they'll fix it. Maybe not.)

[/ QUOTE ]

A: The I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler doesn't do anything to PvP anything, because the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler only alters the accuracy of critters.

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Warcabbit · 05-04-2006 06:14 AM

I'm sorry, I meant it as a Q7.5. Not a complaint, just an obvious point that needed completion.

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Arcanaville · 05-04-2006 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, I meant it as a Q7.5. Not a complaint, just an obvious point that needed completion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't take it as a complaint: the answer you guessed is wrong: the correct answer is "No it doesn't, because the Critter Accuracy Scaler doesn't affect Player accuracy or any other PvP mechanic."

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RedTomax_NA · 05-04-2006 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, I meant it as a Q7.5. Not a complaint, just an obvious point that needed completion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't take it as a complaint: the answer you guessed is wrong: the correct answer is "No it doesn't, because the Critter Accuracy Scaler doesn't affect Player accuracy or any other PvP mechanic."

[/ QUOTE ]
I think warcabbit is referring to the effect in PvP of the tohit debuff ehancements "nerf" with these questions; which you refer to in Q7/

From A7: "... does weaken slotted tohit debuffs, but its not directly related to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler."

Q7.5 Does this tohit debuff change, which has nothing to do with the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler affect PvP?
A7.5 Yes

Arcanaville · 05-04-2006 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, I meant it as a Q7.5. Not a complaint, just an obvious point that needed completion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't take it as a complaint: the answer you guessed is wrong: the correct answer is "No it doesn't, because the Critter Accuracy Scaler doesn't affect Player accuracy or any other PvP mechanic."

[/ QUOTE ]
I think warcabbit is referring to the effect in PvP of the tohit debuff ehancements "nerf" with these questions; which you refer to in Q7/

From A7: "... does weaken slotted tohit debuffs, but its not directly related to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler."

Q7.5 Does this tohit debuff change, which has nothing to do with the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler affect PvP?
A7.5 Yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, that would be off-topic of the FAQ, but the correct Q&A then would be:

Q7: But I heard tohit debuffs were nerfed also?

A7: Unrelated to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler, tohit debuff enhancements were put on Schedule B. Where they belong, with tohit buff enhancements, and Defense enhancements. This does weaken slotted tohit debuffs, but its not directly related to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler.

Q7.5: But doesn't that [the tohit debuff enhancement change] lower ToHitDebuffs in PvP?

A7.5: It lowers their maximum slotted value everywhere, not just in PvP. But since most critters will now have less tohit (and more accuracy), tohit debuffs are becoming more effective in PvE as well (the net behavior is sometimes weaker, sometimes stronger, but generally not by large amounts either way). They are becoming weaker in PvP only because players' base tohit was changed *first* in PvP, prior to the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler. If player tohit was being changed to 50% now, simultaneously with the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler change, then tohit, defense, and tohit debuffs would have all changed in behavior simultaneously, and no one would be now suggesting that the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler had one effect in PvE, and a different effect in PvP. In essence, tohit debuffs got their PvP buff back in the post I5 Player PvP Accuracy patch, and is getting their PvE buff now. Simultaneously, they are getting their enhancements reduced now, to balance them against tohit buff and defense enhancements, which were lowered earlier, or were always on Schedule B, respectively.

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Hephaestus · 05-07-2006 08:42 PM

Thanks. This was very useful.

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Mr_Enigma · 05-08-2006 06:31 AM

Wow, great post! First time I've really grasped how these changes work.

Thanks for explaining it so methodically.

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Defenestrator · 05-08-2006 08:47 AM

Nicely done! If I could give you 5 stars I would.

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Shego · 05-09-2006 07:29 AM

My brain hurts. Anyone else?

NinjaMonkey · 05-10-2006 10:54 AM

One of the best explainations on a complicated topic I've seen.

Counter_Agent · 05-10-2006 11:22 AM

Very nicely written post. This clears it all up for me. Thanks for your time and effort.

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EnergyStar_MsK · 05-11-2006 12:31 AM

Q1: Will you ever cease to amaze me?

A1: Probably not.

Retrogression · 05-11-2006 07:08 AM

Q. Will this help us hit MoG'd Paragon Protectors?

Speculate the answer is:
A. No, because it is a change to critter accuracy, not player accuracy.

Is that right?

Q. Does this mean that Accuracy enhances will help us hit MoG'd Paragon protectors (and other very high defense PvE critters) but toHit buffs will not?

Q. Is it now completely pointless to say things like "3 slotted tactics is the equivalent of an accuracy enhancement in every power" because really that is only the case at certain values of defense, and for higher or lower values of defense, tactics is either more or less helpful than that?

Q. Will there ever be a case where we get Accuracy buffs beyond the Accuracy enhancements in a power? We have many to-hit buffs but no actually Accuracy buffs, right? BuildUp says it increases accuracy but it really increases toHit, which you know because it takes toHit enhancements.

Arcanaville · 05-11-2006 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Q. Will this help us hit MoG'd Paragon Protectors?

Speculate the answer is:
A. No, because it is a change to critter accuracy, not player accuracy.

Is that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[ QUOTE ]
Q. Does this mean that Accuracy enhances will help us hit MoG'd Paragon protectors (and other very high defense PvE critters) but toHit buffs will not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Backwards. High tohit buffs help against high defense more than high accuracy. This is true in I6 now: 3-slot acc doesn't do much against MoG PPs, but focused accuracy cuts right through them. I7 doesn't change this.

[ QUOTE ]
Q. Is it now completely pointless to say things like "3 slotted tactics is the equivalent of an accuracy enhancement in every power" because really that is only the case at certain values of defense, and for higher or lower values of defense, tactics is either more or less helpful than that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is true now. It was also true yesterday, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before...

[ QUOTE ]
Q. Will there ever be a case where we get Accuracy buffs beyond the Accuracy enhancements in a power? We have many to-hit buffs but no actually Accuracy buffs, right? BuildUp says it increases accuracy but it really increases toHit, which you know because it takes toHit enhancements.

[/ QUOTE ]

The game uses the term "Accuracy" to refer to "Accuracy" and "tohit" interchangably. The rule is if it affects a single power, its accuracy. If it affects all your powers, its tohit. Aim is tohit. Accuracy enhancements are accuracy.

There are accuracy "buffs" beyond accuracy enhancements. The weapon draw bonus in some sets is an accuracy bonus (it affects each individual power specifically, and obviously doesn't affect *all* your attacks: it doesn't boost brawl, for example). The sniper bonus is also accuracy. The heightened "accuracy" in all radiation attacks is accuracy.

However, to the best of my knowledge, no buffing power buffs accuracy. And if you think about it, if the rule above is canonical, no buff should: all "accuracy boosting" buff powers would buff all of your attacks, because its a buff on you personally, and that means the rule says it should be a tohit buff.

The rule isn't cosmic law: the devs could change this at any time. But for now, accuracy buffs are generally confined to inherent attack bonuses and accuracy enhancements.

See my Guide to Defense, linked in my sig for more details on the workings of accuracy.

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Kitteh · 05-11-2006 02:20 PM

I'm gonna write a nice song about Arcanaville. A little 70's folkish number, perhaps.

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MrQuizzles · 05-11-2006 07:34 PM

This is a related plug to the spreadsheet found in the post that the link in my signature links you to!

The Issue 7 spreadsheet will calculate minion, LT, boss, and AV accuracy in the level range of +10 to -10 enemies for a given defense/tohit debuff value.

Flame Blade · 05-15-2006 05:17 AM

That is an excellent guide all in all, although I have to disagree on this empirical statement:

[ QUOTE ]

Q4: But MoG is now even more worthless in I7 than in I6.

A4: Yes. So fix MoG.

[/ QUOTE ]

MoG is not worthless, it isn't now, and it won't be in I7. The only problem with MoG is that it is very situational, and that is not really becoming for a level 9 power.

Used right, I will stipulate that MoG is a great team saver. If things are going badly, the scrapper will activate MoG and hold the enemy off until the team is safely away.

That is, in my opinion, the purpose of MoG. Situational, yes. Worthless, not at all.

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Arcanaville · 05-15-2006 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That is an excellent guide all in all, although I have to disagree on this empirical statement:

[ QUOTE ]

Q4: But MoG is now even more worthless in I7 than in I6.

A4: Yes. So fix MoG.

[/ QUOTE ]

MoG is not worthless, it isn't now, and it won't be in I7. The only problem with MoG is that it is very situational, and that is not really becoming for a level 9 power.

Used right, I will stipulate that MoG is a great team saver. If things are going badly, the scrapper will activate MoG and hold the enemy off until the team is safely away.

That is, in my opinion, the purpose of MoG. Situational, yes. Worthless, not at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

The phrase "even more worthless" is a signal this is somewhat hyperbole. Nothing can be more worthless than worthless. The issue with MoG is whether its worth enough: its certainly worth less in I7 than in I6: if you thought it was worthless in I6, I7 is certainly going to strengthen that opinion. If you like MoG in I6, I7 may or may not change your mind.

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SpACatta · 05-15-2006 12:56 PM

So, since I'm not enough of a number cruncher to actually read all of that... I need a summary. Does this make combat easier or harder for us?

Arcanaville · 05-15-2006 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, since I'm not enough of a number cruncher to actually read all of that... I need a summary. Does this make combat easier or harder for us?

[/ QUOTE ]

A summary of a summary? Ok:

1. If you only fight even minions, you aren't going to notice much of anything.

2. If you don't have a lot of defense, you aren't going to notice much of anything.

3. If you do have a lot of defense, and you fight anything other than even level minions, critters will have a little harder time hitting you. The higher you fight, the harder it will get for them to hit you, relative to I6.

4. But if you have REALLY high defense, in I7 you might get hit *more* often than in I6.

5. If you PvP, forget I said anything.

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staivn · 05-15-2006 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A1: In I6, this is the base tohit of various Ranks:

Minion: 50%
LT: 57.5%
Boss: 65%
AV: 75%

[/ QUOTE ]
Do Elite Bosses have the same tohit rate as regular bosses?

Arcanaville · 05-15-2006 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A1: In I6, this is the base tohit of various Ranks:

Minion: 50%
LT: 57.5%
Boss: 65%
AV: 75%

[/ QUOTE ]
Do Elite Bosses have the same tohit rate as regular bosses?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe Bosses, Elite Bosses, and possibly snipers had 65% base tohit. Monsters, Pets, Turrets and Archvillains I believe all have 75% base tohit.

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