[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, what is the deal with that anyway? You tell 'em you're herding. They say ok. Ask them to move back. They don't. You run in, herd the room, and just as you turn around to run back to the herd spot, you notice the entire team in the room attacking the back of the horde, prolonging the battle, and getting teammates killed. Now is that odd, or what? Or worse, the pull that is meant to save lives and to bring the baddies to the team one by one is instead taken as a battle call and they all rush in and die??!!
Or even worse... you ask the team to stand back and not to aggro anything near the portal because it will spawn a ton of baddies that will kill the whole team. So what happens, some blaster suddenly fires at a baddie right next to the portal, spawing the huge horde of baddies, and wiping the team.
Did I missing something?
Lately, I've been taking a very vindictive view of this wacky, counter-productive and selfish behavior. If a blaster wants to aggro a whole room against the wishes/interests of the team, I simply abandon the blaster and any members of the team who are following him to their fate. Let them die. Serves them right. I'll say, "Anyone who doesn't want to die, fall back, retreat, and regroup." And then I run out of the room.
I've tried using a bind to inform the team. Here it is:
"Herding is DANGEROUS! We need to keep the horde focused on the tank or they will turn on the rest of the team. This means YOU need to STAY OUT OF THE HORDE'S SIGHT until they are in a nice, tight group.
If the horde sees you, they will scatter, attack the rest of the team, and heroes will die. Timing is everything... Wait to attack until you see this signal...
ATTACK NOW!!!
Then rush in and take the baddies out quickly before they lose interest in the tank."
However, I was berated on more than one occasion from lvl 40+ PUG heroes that "Everyone on the team has been playing the game for 40+ levels and I think we all know how herding works." And yet, more often than not lvl 40+ PUGs split the aggro, negate the tank's herd, and cause team members to die as a result. What is going on??? Should I use the bind? Not use the bind? What???
Now, I'm not one of those herding terminators, although I could be :-) . I try to mix it up. 50% herding, 40% mosh pit (whole team runs in and attacks at once), and 10% pulling. I recognize that herding can make a mission dull. Yes, it DOES generally allow the team to finish the mission quicker, and safer, but the battles don't last as long -- and there-in lies the boredom and lack of excitement. So I throw in a mosh pit or a pull here and there. Let the rest of the team shine and use their individual abilities/powers rather than merely rely on the tank's herding abilities. Indeed, sometimes the team is so good, herding is not needed at all and we simply mosh pit the entire mission faster than I could herd it. It all depends on the team and the villains we're facing.
Yet even in this even-handed situation, I run across showboaters who endanger the team and negate the ability for the team to work together... as a team. They don't listen to the leader or the rest of the team, they don't tell anyone what they're planning on doing, and they spring surprise aggro on everyone.
So what have I been doing lately in response? Well, hate to say it, but if a whole team won't pull together and act like a team... I team wipe em all. I play like an idiot. Aggro 3+ groups, scatter (not herd or gather) the aggro, and then find a nice minion by himself to attack and watch as the team dies one by one, overwhelmed by all the aggro I created. It turns out that this is a much more effective and less stressful way of getting the point across. I've found taking the team members to task, berating them for their behavior, and insisting that they play intelligently and cooperatively only serves to stir up anger and resentment and more rebellion. Yet playing as badly as they do seems to get the point across. A tank can run in willy nilly and endanger the team just as easily (if not more easily since tanks can actually BRING aggro to other individual players) as any other hero.
So what do you think? Too vindictive?
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you wanna know why? I have the answer. Wait for it... a bit longer... No Patience.
Most just want constant action.
The point is, with a good tank, with a well made tank.
1. A collection point is identified "I will herd to here".
2. A point is identified for the team to wait. "Stay out of sight and wait for my signal" or "wait here for my signal."
3. After a "dance with death" the tank makes the room angry, and focused on him.
4. The tank runs to the "geometric" corner and stacks the baddies.
5. The tank gives a ready and the team attacks.
SIMPLE RIGHT?
WRONG.
n00bs now have no patience. They attack early, they "watch", they stand in harms way, they take aggro before it is secure.
I dealt with it last night. I could not herd properly at all. Nobody had patience beyond 10 seconds.
What is a tank to do... 
I am Airman America... Super Hero... and I approve this message!
[ QUOTE ]
What is pulling? I've come to understand it simply as a means for initiating combat. Be it from a Blaster with a sniper attack, or through my highly successful 'around-the-corner' Ice Slick manuever.
I've been in all kinds of groups successfully using all kinds of pulling techniques. I've seen other groups attempting the same, only to fail and die. It really depends on who's in your group, what you're fighting and how experienced you and your teammates are.
I really don't believe there's any one superior method for pulling. And as long as it works and nobody dies, what's wrong with doing something a little different?
[/ QUOTE ]
No the purpose of pulling isnt just to aggro an entire mob from one place to another, the point is to isolate as few NPC('s) as possible, preferably ONE, and wittle down a large group to the point where its safe to engage them all at once.
> What is a tank to do...
Play CoV, then don't worry about it. CoH players are spoiled by tanks. Even though dark/rad defenders are better at debuffs than corruptors, and controllers are better at control and debuffs than dominators, CoV players can get by with semi-tank brutes (which are basically scrappers in defense capabilities), and gimped debuffs/controls.
Herding is not necessary, it's just another form of pulling, except it's far more boring and the tank is seen as a glory hog pulling unnecessary stunts when for the most part, it's just not necessary to pull most spawns in the first place. It's better, in most cases, to pull spawns one at a time with a good aoe debuff like Darkest Night or Rad Infection, and let the team go at them.
Most importantly as a team leader, don't pull if you don't have to. Know all the room layouts and spawn points, and consider whether you need to pull or not.
Just a suggestion, but if someone is doing something boneheaded in your group, let them know.
I just started playing this game a couple months ago, and I'm on a learning curve. I'd rather someone go ahead and correct me then continue looking like an idiot.
Learn modesty, if you desire knowledge. A highland would never be irrigated by river." (Kanz ol-Haghayegh)
[ QUOTE ]
"Everyone on the team has been playing the game for 40+ levels and I think we all know how herding works."
[/ QUOTE ]
Replace "herding" with anything, and you have the Battle Hymn of the Retarded.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
*sigh* Was in a pick up group the other day with a blaster who when ever he volunteered to pull used fireball...-_-..One was in a tight room and all 3 mobs came at once..team wipe.
Join another PuG a day or two later and get to a point in the mish where a stair case leads to a room with a wall and windows to the right with a mob inside and a mob next to the windows on the outside..Tell group to pull since we'd aggro the window group in the middle of the battle..scrapper runs in aggros both groups boxed in and die..the team does this 3 times before they listen to me..and wouldnt you know it the next time we actually lived 
Would still be nice if I hadn't gotten the debt from the 3 suicide runs before that..
[ QUOTE ]
Just a suggestion, but if someone is doing something boneheaded in your group, let them know.
I just started playing this game a couple months ago, and I'm on a learning curve. I'd rather someone go ahead and correct me then continue looking like an idiot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Dude, I'm sure that's the case for most people BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, it just gets frusterating to explain it over and over every night for 2 years.
To make matters worse is when you have to explain it more that once to any given n00b.
Some people don't pay any attention to that little chat window
Some people are just cr4ppy players no matter how much you try to help them. Other times you get people who will openly defy you and just do whatever they want, just because (they are m0r0n5) 
Centinull
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just a suggestion, but if someone is doing something boneheaded in your group, let them know.
I just started playing this game a couple months ago, and I'm on a learning curve. I'd rather someone go ahead and correct me then continue looking like an idiot.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Dude, I'm sure that's the case for most people BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, it just gets frusterating to explain it over and over every night for 2 years.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well... I'm not that impatient. I don't mind explaining. Even over and over (this is what binds are for). It's when you explain it over and over and no one listens... that's when it's frustrating! In addition, I think being willing to accept suggestions and criticism from another player is not the norm. Instead, most take it as an attack, and either attack back or get all resentful and defiant. And when players do this it's not merely frustrating, but downright distasteful. When this happens, of course, I team wipe 'em. 
All is NOT lost, however! I just played with a PUG last night that more than appreciated my tank's abilities. One guy said that he had been playing COH for over 2 years and had never played with someone who tanked as good as me. Well, kinda made me blush, but it was sorely refreshing (and appreciated)! 
So there is hope...
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
I don't really think Pulling is a lost art but some ppl get to excited (or jump the gun) and aren't willing to wait.
I myself love it when a good blaster pulls and does it right (no aoes or taoe like fireball) that is one of the biggest complaints they say they will pull and then use fireball
hhhhhmmmm that will pull alright it pulls the whole group.
Tanks
.nothing better than one who can do herding , Ive been lucky to team with a few that can do it, I dont remember the mission but we had a team of 8 and the tank was herding each floor and we all ganged up on them as they stacked
.needless to say the mission went fast and nobody died.
But pulling being a lost art, I hope not but there are a lot of ppl that don't know how to do it (even if you try to explian it)
all in all there are still some good ppl that know how to pull out there...the hard part is finding them.
I don't play CoH much but over on CoV, pulling is non-existent because it is never needed or efficient, barring VERY extraordinary circumstances (say lvl10 8 man team facing an AV with a bunch of reds around it. ah!). The "Chaos" of running headlong into the next spawn is actually beneficial in CoV because Brutes get to go in with near full fury and Smash things to bits. As long as there's some blue left (and I very rarely see anyone run out, those blue thingamajigs in your insp tray are meant to be used you know?) you should run to the next spawn as fast as you can. If you're too hurt or out of breath, rest and let your teammates run in. Full team relentless spawns can be easily downed by 3-4 villains without much danger at all anyway. Yes sometimes deaths DO occur but you're blowing through missions so fast that it's gone before you can blink.
Maybe I sound a little antagonistic but I really don't see why you'd want to pull.
Now herding is still effective IMO if you have someone that can defeat the whole herd very quickly. I've seen Stone Brutes in Granite herd a whole room and then the rest of the team attack the mob with single target attacks (that's all we had). What exactly are we achieving by doing this rather than defeating mobs one after the other? Nothing. On the other hand, if you have a couple AoE focused toons (especially Corruptors with their nukes and/or AoE heavy sets) you can kill things so fast that just one herder is not enough and you ideally need 2.
Now what irks me the most is when I play my Rad/Rad Corr (who can defeat a whole herd in less than 10 seconds) and some idiot messes with my /Stone Brute friend's herding. You'll always have a Stalker try to AS a LT (who would have died from the AoEs... that was useful!), a Fire/Fire Brute who wants to be cool just like the Granite Brute (and faceplants repeatedly, maybe he's working on debt badges?) or a Dominator hellbent on using confuse every time it's up on the mobs the Brute is trying to herd (that's useful.... how?). The best way to deal with those people is to simply KICK them. Yep that's right! Don't waste time explaining things over and over, if you tell people "Stay here and wait till X brings the guys over, then use your debuffs but don't attack until Y attacks, then heal Y and mop up whoever is left standing" and they don't do it right within 2-3 herds, kick 'em!
Besides, is it really so hard to find regular teammates that you get along with playstyle-wise? I refused to join a SG for a long time and kept running PuGs or teamming with a few friends I had on Global and I ran into problems regularly but since I joined a VG, I never ever have to team with people who are -BAD-. Yes sometimes we'll have someone from coalition invite a friend and that friend will be a MM who keeps their pets on aggressive all the time and refuse to give them any orders but like I said before, there's a kick button. Don't be afraid to use it.
And as far as finding good tanks that know how to herd, I really don't see what is so hard about running through a couple spawns with your PBAoE damage aura on, using taunt a few times, then running around a corner and wait for the mobs to bunch up and launch one or two AoEs. How can someone mess that up?
> Yes sometimes deaths DO occur but you're blowing through missions so fast that it's gone before you can blink.
You can get away with this on newspaper missions vs the weaker gangs on 8P relentless. The gangs (Council, Freaks, Family, Raiders, etc.) aren't as tough, the map layouts are always the basic office or warehouse, and there's only one ambush - the one you get after killing the hostage spawn.
But try doing that on 8P relentless on a longbow lab, some wailer maps, or arachnos base missions. The gangs are nasty, map layouts are complex and packed with easy near-guaranteed wipe double and triple aggros, and ambushes are frequent and often unannounced. I guarantee you the brutes fury is not worth dealing with 4 +3 longbow bosses at once when you inevitably double aggro.
Herding can be efficient but it's also extremely boring. I run my teams to have fun with the missions, not maximize XP/hour. That means pulling when necessary, and moving at mobs as a whole team otherwise.
I can see where you might get impatient about it, but this really is the first and only MMORPG I've ever played, so I try not to be sensitive about it and I'm open to being corrected.
I will say that when I first started this game, my experience with PUGs was terrible and I more or less soloed my way up the first few levels. Since my characters were high enough level to get into the Hollows, I've really lucked out and made into some good ones, although I do still get the occassional group of nimrods.
More often than not, at least 1 or 2 people on the more successful groups I've been on have been around the block once or twice and are just working on newer characters they've created.
BTW, I know this is OT for this thread, but what's the purpose of badges? Do they do anything special or do people just get them just because?
Learn modesty, if you desire knowledge. A highland would never be irrigated by river." (Kanz ol-Haghayegh)
Let's all say a prayer to the patron saint of botched pulls and herdings: Leeeroy Jenkins 
[ QUOTE ]
It seems even more of a lost art in CoV.
Actually, It seems any form of tactics is less common in CoV!
[/ QUOTE ]
QFE!
But it's happening a lot in CoH, too. (Maybe all the CoV players who got to 40 are in Paragon now.) Recently I've been on several teams where I've suggested pulling in a room filled with large mobs, only to see a Melee person run in and start things up. Even when many of the people on the team were low on health of end.
The only tactic has become "run in and kill stuff as fast as you can... meet you in the hospital."
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
[ QUOTE ]
I've told Scrappers and Tankers "I'm going to pull - wait around the corner." Instead they seemed intent on watching what I'm doing (standing right next to me). Then charge the enemy I shot when it starts shooting them (I ducked around the corner so it would chase me and now that it can't see me and it can see them). This totally negates the whole purpose of the pull and has gotten us into trouble.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was running as Tarikoss Strike Force and had a problem where I had the Corruptor pull, and the moment the target came running one of the Dominators would slap a hold down on him right away, so not only can he not come to us but the rest of the mob either doesn't notice or notices and they all come, totally negating the pull.
An Addendum:
1) Pulling already covered here.
2) Herding already covered here.
3) Nuking: After lvl 32 most blasters and PB (WS?) get a PBoE nuke. Too many times I have seen a blaster utter those famous last words, "watch this". He then proceeds to run into the middle of a mob and 50% of the time gets eaten alive in the alpha before he can nuke them. Either way nuking a group that hasn't been softened up or otherwise impaired will get the nuker a quick dirt nap.
I was on with my PB last night and a stone tanker, we ALWAYS coordinated my nuking with his herding (to great effect I might add). He would herd and give me the go ahead, I would run into the herd that was completely focused on the tank, and BU+Pulsar+Dawn Strike. Any mobs not dead would still be stunned by the pulsar. I pop 2 blues and help with the mop up. IMPORTANT: Immediatly after my nuke the tanker would release his own AoE and taunt the survivors back to him. Not only did I not face plant even once, my health never even went into the orange.
Strategy FTW!
You are certainly correct, pulling is a lost art form. Your very post proves this:
[ QUOTE ][*]The purpose of pulling is to get just one enemy to come after you while his friends just sit back and wonder where he's going.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, No, No, No, NO.
The purpose of pulling is to slow the spawns down enough to survive while still killing as fast as possible. Pulling only 1 enemy at a time is flat out ridiculous in a game like CoH/CoV...and boring as heck to boot.
People who truly believe pulling is pulling only one guy are people who've just started to read the book on pulling but haven't got to the meat of it yet.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't play CoH much but over on CoV, pulling is non-existent because it is never needed or efficient, barring VERY extraordinary circumstances (say lvl10 8 man team facing an AV with a bunch of reds around it. ah!).
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree - pulling is very frequently the most efficient method of initiating attack. There is another reason for "pulling" which has not been directly discussed here - to place the mobs in a compact group, near a wall for other obstacle. There are many, many very good AOE based powers which either function much better if enemies are tightly grouped, or don't function at all if they are spread out. For example - soft controls or AOE debuffs (ice slick, earthquake, tar patch), defender debuff toggles (radiation infection, darkest night), tank taunt auras, and blaster AOE damage. All of these can have a huge effect on the speed with which enemies are dispatched, and the safety of doing so.
A good corner pull is usually the ideal way to set up these powers. Enemies will run up until they turn the corner, at which point they will stop and attack. One after another they will group-up nice and tight, right at the corner. As an added bonus, a good corner pull usually has a wall next to the enemies, to contain knockback (if properly directed).
To address the point of the OP, I think the reason why pulling is poorly done, if used at all, is that it's effectiveness is not as obvious to the soloer. Many people learn to play as soloers, and simply carry their solo tactics into the team environment (everbody pick someone and attack; when dead, pick another).
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if it's just me, but lately it seems to me that a lot of other players just don't seem to understand the purpose of pulling or how to use it properly.
[*]The purpose of pulling is to get just one enemy to come after you while his friends just sit back and wonder where he's going. It's also very helpful when you have several spawns close together and don't think you can handle them all at once.
[*]HOW TO PULL!<ul type="square">[*]Have everyone in the team except the person attacking stand back around a corner where they can't see you. 2 corners are better since that way the enemies that don't come can't see you attacking their friend or wander into viewing range. And corners force them to get closer for the Melee characters to attack rather than the Melees running into the enemies.[*]The person shooting picks one target (preferably a minion that's away from the main group - a Lt will probably pull the whole group, and a Boss+ will get everyone). After attacking, run back behind the other players and wait.[*]Rinse and repeat as necessary.[/list]Simple and effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well thats pulling in a nutshell but it gets more complex than that. Many other factors weigh in also.
People have to keep in mind the enemy abilities and the range the enemy has. In order for it to come after you, you have to immediately get out of it's range. I assume thats why you said to run past your group. Mostly because if you move back 25ft from the point you shot, the minion will only run towards you 25 ft and stop and use his ranged shots. Thats why corners are good. If they lose line of sight, they will need to come around that corner to restore line of sight.
Some minions in groups are good candidates for a pull but it may not be the one furthest from the group or closest to you. You can safely pull one from the other side or middle of the group without the rest of them noticing if you pay attention to what they are doing. Some of them are screwing off and not paying attention. Some of them are looking around anxiously (those are VERY attentive and will alarm the group). Some have their backs turned and will not "see" the pull. Paragon Protectors and crey guardians will notice pulls because its their job to watch the group. The best way to pull a PP is to pull a minion near it. If you target the PP directly he/she will bring the whole group but it will be the first to arrive.
Also, TP foe works exactly like a ranged shot, if one of the mobs witnesses the TP it will come following as well.
The amount of damage done to the pulled target is non-consequential. What does help is a shot that is thrown and not a beam type. If you can throw a shot then back up before it hits, you will have a good chance of only aggro'ing the one you shot. Snipes work so well because of the distance. Only the one you shot sees you because the aggro increased his range. the others won't see it unless they were watching the one you shot.
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree - pulling is very frequently the most efficient method of initiating attack. There is another reason for "pulling" which has not been directly discussed here - to place the mobs in a compact group, near a wall for other obstacle. There are many, many very good AOE based powers which either function much better if enemies are tightly grouped, or don't function at all if they are spread out. For example - soft controls or AOE debuffs (ice slick, earthquake, tar patch), defender debuff toggles (radiation infection, darkest night), tank taunt auras, and blaster AOE damage. All of these can have a huge effect on the speed with which enemies are dispatched, and the safety of doing so.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly why I like to initiate combat with Ice Slick. I can do so from around a corner, entirely negating the alpha strike. And the enemies are sufficiently bunched together for AE and offensive toggle convenience.
I'm probably the worst player to invite into your party if you intend on pulling enemies one at a time. Partly because of my area-oriented powerset combination, but because I'm very likely to fall asleep on the job. It's boring. I've been in groups where the blaster insisted on slowly initiating with a sniper attack, essentially soloing. I've been in groups where the /devices blaster simply had to lay down numerous mines before pulling. Worse, I've been in groups where the blaster in the above scenarios was the group leader.
/shrug
[ QUOTE ]
> Yes sometimes deaths DO occur but you're blowing through missions so fast that it's gone before you can blink.
You can get away with this on newspaper missions vs the weaker gangs on 8P relentless. The gangs (Council, Freaks, Family, Raiders, etc.) aren't as tough, the map layouts are always the basic office or warehouse, and there's only one ambush - the one you get after killing the hostage spawn.
But try doing that on 8P relentless on a longbow lab, some wailer maps, or arachnos base missions. The gangs are nasty, map layouts are complex and packed with easy near-guaranteed wipe double and triple aggros, and ambushes are frequent and often unannounced. I guarantee you the brutes fury is not worth dealing with 4 +3 longbow bosses at once when you inevitably double aggro.
Herding can be efficient but it's also extremely boring. I run my teams to have fun with the missions, not maximize XP/hour. That means pulling when necessary, and moving at mobs as a whole team otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have problems with contact mission. I very rarely (if ever) double or triple aggro. The only time where my SG will have to deal with more than a single spawn is when you have two that are interlaced. For example, we did the respec trial set on relentless yesterday in less than one hour without a hitch. I guess it might be because we regularly play together and know what everyone else is doing.
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree - pulling is very frequently the most efficient method of initiating attack. There is another reason for "pulling" which has not been directly discussed here - to place the mobs in a compact group, near a wall for other obstacle. There are many, many very good AOE based powers which either function much better if enemies are tightly grouped, or don't function at all if they are spread out. For example - soft controls or AOE debuffs (ice slick, earthquake, tar patch), defender debuff toggles (radiation infection, darkest night), tank taunt auras, and blaster AOE damage. All of these can have a huge effect on the speed with which enemies are dispatched, and the safety of doing so.
A good corner pull is usually the ideal way to set up these powers. Enemies will run up until they turn the corner, at which point they will stop and attack. One after another they will group-up nice and tight, right at the corner. As an added bonus, a good corner pull usually has a wall next to the enemies, to contain knockback (if properly directed).
To address the point of the OP, I think the reason why pulling is poorly done, if used at all, is that it's effectiveness is not as obvious to the soloer. Many people learn to play as soloers, and simply carry their solo tactics into the team environment (everbody pick someone and attack; when dead, pick another).
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, corner pulls are definetely nice. Let me clarify and say that what I meant by pulling in my initial post was the 1 by 1 method. Using a debuff toggle and running around a corner to bunch up the mobs is one of my favorite tactics and is definetely beneficial. When no herder is online, I'll usually act as a ghetto herder by putting RI+EF on 2 mobs in 2 spawns and run back towards a choke point where my friends are waiting.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably the worst player to invite into your party if you intend on pulling enemies one at a time. Partly because of my area-oriented powerset combination, but because I'm very likely to fall asleep on the job.
[/ QUOTE ]
I may have caused some confusion by using the term "pulling" in a broader way than the OP. I view the tactical decision to pull (change the location of the battle by bringing enemies to me, rather than run to them) as independant of the number of enemies pulled. Once we decide that we need to change the location of a battle, there are a number of different methods to "pull", which will bring a smaller or larger proportion of the enemy group. Simply put, you don't just have to pull one.
[ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly why I like to initiate combat with Ice Slick. I can do so from around a corner, entirely negating the alpha strike. And the enemies are sufficiently bunched together for AE and offensive toggle convenience.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ice slick is one of the (if not the) largest AOE powers in the game, so it suffers less from spread-out targets than most other AOE powers. Even so, there are many situations where ice slick is not big enough to capture all enemies in place. All AOE powers (particularly those with smaller areas) still benefit greatly from a more compact enemy group.
I've not only been amazed that so many people don't know the concept of pulling, but also that so many people just don't know how to follow instructions.
I was on a full team doing a particularly messy CoT mission on one of the their cave maps. The spawn was in a cavern right at the entrance where the tunnel opens up. A couple of large spawns were there and we faceplanted a couple times trying to fight them all (those Earth casters are such a pain!).
I finally told everyone to just follow my instructions (I had to try to take control because it was just too messy and there were too many deaths). I backed up in the tunnel to just around a bend. I told everyone "Wait here!!!! Do NOT come from around the corner. I'll bring a portion of the spawn here and they'll all be in a nice tight group for our AoE's! Just STAY HERE until they show up!" My plan was to snipe one and then drop an ice patch down at the bend. Of course you know what would happen.... at least a portion of the spawn would try to follow me around the bend, then they'd all be gathered up in a nice bunch slipping on the ice slick.
I went over this several times with everyone. I get ready, lay down my ice patch, snipe, and back up around the bend..... passing half of my team which had moved forward to be part of the action. So of course most of the mobs stay in the cavern and attack from a distance, the tanks run to meet them aggroing the other spawns, and we all faceplant.
I try this again and tell them the plan again and tell them "don't deviate! Just stay HERE where I'm standing. They'll come!" I lay down the patch, snipe again, back up, and see half the group running out to meet everyone.
At that point I just told them that as long as they continue to play that way, we'll just keep dying, so I left the group.
Yeah, sometimes it's better (and more fun) to just go in and take on the group. But with a large team, you can easily get spawns you just can't handle (multiple spawns close to each other). Pulling is a great tactic and has its place.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Checkout my hastily written Small Guide to Pulling...typos and all (I've REALLY been meaning to update it one of these days).
Most things that anyone would need to know about pulling are covered in that thread...between my original post, the feedback from others, and my follow-up posts.
Some powers generate less aggro than others. Mind Control (Controller) doesn't tend to aggro large groups. Scrapper with Impale (Spines) doesn't either. Admittedly, both those powers lock the mob in place for a moment, but he'll be here shortly...
The other advantage of pulling is maximizing your use of Caltrops, Tar Patch, Buffs, etc. When you outnumber the baddies, you should do much, much better than when they outnumber you.