well placate is broken now (or nerfed, who knows)
and scrappers > stalkers 95/100 times
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well placate is broken now (or nerfed, who knows)
and scrappers > stalkers 95/100 times
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What's broken about it?
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well placate is broken now (or nerfed, who knows)
and scrappers > stalkers 95/100 times
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What's broken about it?
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Good question.
I have a suggestion, but I don't know how much this would take to apply
While the toggle drop values seem a little low right now(i think def, corr and 1st power of a dom should have a little better chance) (i also think the dom 2nd power should be a bit lower like 33% maybe)I think there would be a perfect way to still actually have people think it's worth it to get in there for toggle drops even though the danger has increased significantly for squishies
I think there should be a 2 minute recharge debuff on any power that has been toggle dropped, otherwise toggle drops dont mean much to tanks and such as they can throw it back on in 2 seconds, this way any tank that has a toggle dropped would be in a bit of danger and actually get scared
lemme know wut u think of this
Look, you only need to see my signature to see the number of 50s and types I operate, and that does not include any of my others in their 40s, 30s, 20s, 10s.
The whole issue of toggle dropping was overboard. You wait for, you fight for, you are excited about getting various powers, some are even the epic armors, and BINGO, they last about 10 seconds in the arena. BINGO, they are shut down and all that waiting is for nothing. Leadership, armor, Shadow Fall, all of it is gone. The animation time it takes to restart them is long and deadly. The point is, toggle drops are a pain in the neck. Far better there would have been some form of supression for X seconds rather than seeing Tough go down, or Weave bite the bullet. Much of the Toggle drop stuff was a jerk knee reaction to the issues of I4 and the start of PvP. Finally, we will have a bit more "balance". Personally, I would rather see the sleep/mez holds do that without the total drops as well. Seems to me, if you are immoble and cannot fight back, that is enough. It should not be a coup de grace that it is now.
I am Airman America... Super Hero... and I approve this message!
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I have a suggestion, but I don't know how much this would take to apply
While the toggle drop values seem a little low right now(i think def, corr and 1st power of a dom should have a little better chance) (i also think the dom 2nd power should be a bit lower like 33% maybe)I think there would be a perfect way to still actually have people think it's worth it to get in there for toggle drops even though the danger has increased significantly for squishies
I think there should be a 2 minute recharge debuff on any power that has been toggle dropped, otherwise toggle drops dont mean much to tanks and such as they can throw it back on in 2 seconds, this way any tank that has a toggle dropped would be in a bit of danger and actually get scared
lemme know wut u think of this
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Ummmmmmmm.......No.
If I could hit a Blaster with a power that made them unable to use their offense for 2 minutes, would you think that'd be fair?
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I have a suggestion, but I don't know how much this would take to apply
While the toggle drop values seem a little low right now(i think def, corr and 1st power of a dom should have a little better chance) (i also think the dom 2nd power should be a bit lower like 33% maybe)I think there would be a perfect way to still actually have people think it's worth it to get in there for toggle drops even though the danger has increased significantly for squishies
I think there should be a 2 minute recharge debuff on any power that has been toggle dropped, otherwise toggle drops dont mean much to tanks and such as they can throw it back on in 2 seconds, this way any tank that has a toggle dropped would be in a bit of danger and actually get scared
lemme know wut u think of this
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Ummmmmmmm.......No.
If I could hit a Blaster with a power that made them unable to use their offense for 2 minutes, would you think that'd be fair?
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You can. It's called death! 
I keed I keed.
Suppression of some sort would likely be a better solution then toggle dropping. But even if something like that were instituted, 2 minutes would be far far far too long. It takes way less then that to destroy someone that has their key toggle gone.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
The rule is to give players enough information to make informed decisions. If you don't, then players complain because effects are "too binary" -- which really means that something happens, or doesn't happen, without any ability to counter it. Toggle dropping gets that complaint, AS stalking gets that complaint, etc. Not because you die from it, but because you don't have the chance to react to it.
For instance, if you see AS coming, then you can do something about it: try to interrupt, try to break line of sight, pop a green, whatever. That's fun, even if it doesn't work and you die. If you don't see the AS, then there's nothing you can do (but keep on the move all the time). Not so much fun. That's why all my scrappers have tactics now -- every single one. Not because it's safer necessarily, but because it's more fun.
Toggle dropping is a kludge in a lot of ways, but still could be fun if players could see it coming. The devs just spent all this effort in implementing the "Eluded" or "Avoided" or "Deflected" signals in pvp combat -- but for what? Nothing but eye candy. Imagine, however, if there were a similar signal for toggle dropping. Eg, I get hit by a blapper and, above my head flashes "Toggle drop: Integration." And then, 2 SECONDS LATER, the toggle drops. In that two seconds, I have the opportunity to do something -- run, build up, call for help, etc. My choice. Then, all of a sudden, the effect would not be so "binary."
The problem with the toggle dropping is not the percentage of the time it happens; the problem is the inability of players to know when it's going to happen. Having fun depends on the ability to act/reacte; the less there is to react to, the less fun.
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heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.
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For me, this is an important issue. The idea of using Tanks as the benchmark in this discussion is ridiculous. There are only two out of five places where this kind of encounter can even occur, and in those places Tanks rarely ever seen. Tanks are being portrayed as the big bad boogie man in this scenario, when that is just not the case.
Please, lets see some real comparisons, and stop blowing this out of proportion.
What do Blasters really encounter in PvP that they would want toggle drops to face? The answer is Brutes and Stalkers, both of which are significantly below Tank numbers for defense and resistance. Brutes get Scrapper level numbers for their secondary, and believe it or not are usually doing less damage than Tanks because Fury in PvP is a joke. A Brute needs to have around 25-30% Fury just to get to Tank damage, so don't bother arguing that as an advantage. The truth is, Blasters don't need toggle drops to defeat Brutes or Stalkers, and never have.
Please stop using Tanks for this arguement and lets talk about encounters that are likely to actually occur.
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its not all about blasters either. its about toggle dropping. so tanks are just as valid benchmark as stalkers and brutes
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From what I've seen, the people who are most cheesed off about this (and with the least reason to be) are the Blasters who think they should be able to drop Tanks in one attack chain, which is why I mentioned them specifically. Defenders and Dominators should be the ones complaining here because of there low damage, not Blasters who will almost never face a Tank in PvP. Tanks are so rare for anybody to face in PvP that it is pointless to use them as the yardstick anyway. Lets talk real encounters here, not all the imaginary ones that might occur. Saying Blasters have to worry about fighting Tanks is like saying we should all build bomb shelters in our backyards because Iran might build a nuclear bomb.
All the Test arena regulars here, answer me this. How many Tanks have you faced in the last 4 months?
I've never understood why Blasters had them anyway. What does de-toggling do, at it's most basic level? It makes a player, or one or more of their powers, less effective. Sounds like a debuff to me. The devs have made it clear that debuffs are Defender territory, with sets being shared by Controllers, Corruptors, and MMs. As such, only those ATs should have ever had them.
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first time checking back since yesterday so sorry if this was said, but that was entirely my point. in the first post about it. i mentioned the fact that noone ont eh test center pvp actually plays tanks. the reason for that is the toggle dropping. how effective can a tank be in PVP when all they are doing is re-establishing their toggles over and over again?
they should make toggle dropping a magnitude-based system like mezzing so that it doesn't look stupid when a single hit knocks off defenses, but people ganging up increase the odds, or multiple hits from a single person add up and eventually knock off toggles
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Because we have been told over and over and over and over and over and over and over that this is not balanced for one-v-one. By definition, that means that one-v-one is imbalanced for some pair-offs. I don't remember anyone saying that Blasters had a special place as an AT that could take on just enyone else and win.
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It would be really nice if melee remembered that they need a team too. Even now in SC it is incredibly easy to get kills with a BRUTE if you have a team behind you. A couple of corruptors and toggle drops are laughable since the blaster that attacked you in melee is dead before he figures out why your not.
Thats okay though, just keep telling blasters to get a team. Remember when Tanks got extra damage? Remember when they took away the lack of mobility? There is always a flip side. Enjoy being overpowered while you can, cry when the other shoe drops like melee always does.
[/ QUOTE ]I was going to respond to this, but after reading this and your posts on the thread on the Blaster boards about the same topic, its pretty obvious you have some kind of hate-on for folks who play Scrapper and Tanks.
In that case, I'm just gonna ignore you and talk to the resonable folks about the subject.
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Because we have been told over and over and over and over and over and over and over that this is not balanced for one-v-one. By definition, that means that one-v-one is imbalanced for some pair-offs. I don't remember anyone saying that Blasters had a special place as an AT that could take on just enyone else and win.
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It would be really nice if melee remembered that they need a team too. Even now in SC it is incredibly easy to get kills with a BRUTE if you have a team behind you. A couple of corruptors and toggle drops are laughable since the blaster that attacked you in melee is dead before he figures out why your not.
Thats okay though, just keep telling blasters to get a team. Remember when Tanks got extra damage? Remember when they took away the lack of mobility? There is always a flip side. Enjoy being overpowered while you can, cry when the other shoe drops like melee always does.
[/ QUOTE ]I was going to respond to this, but after reading this and your posts on the thread on the Blaster boards about the same topic, its pretty obvious you have some kind of hate-on for folks who play Scrapper and Tanks.
In that case, I'm just gonna ignore you and talk to the resonable folks about the subject.
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I used to be pretty reasonable on this subject, back when it was being discussed on the Tanker forums. Even laid out a compromise that would help every AT with EVERY form of toggle dropping. Everyone could pretty much deal with it since it removed the kludgy mechanic of toggle drops. It still kept the balance level where it is now.
However, we now get all these melee palyers gleefully hopping up and down, now that the toggle drops have been removed. Why? They know they are overpowered, they get to have their cake and eat it too. They don't have to compromise, they don't need a weakness. What do they care about the blasters? Very little, except for a few that realize that what we have now is not balanced in the slightest. Although some of the suggestions don't even come close to addressing the level of balance created by toggle droppers.
They are focusing too much on blasters and not creating a mechanic that benefits EVERYONE that had toggle droppers. The game doesn't revolve around blasters being able to toggle drop after all.
SnakeGandhi, with a good many Tankers stating that 'balance' is needing a team to kill them, with a good many Brutes saying that they'll go back to PvP now that they don't need to worry about Blasters anymore...
I can't see how you blame Concern.
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Im not arguing against that at all. In fact, I specifically went out of my way to agree with this opinion. But Im saying that the current percentages are so low as to give melee-going blasters little hope. And make no mistake
my blaster is supposed to go into melee (5 out of 9 power choices in my secondary, after all)!
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I usually try to stay out of this useless back and forth silly arguments but this caught my attention and was too good not to respond.
Dear Zubenelgenubi ~
I would like to remind you of two things:
1. PvP is not built around 1v1 battles, so your blaster will have a good number of opportunities to defeat Melee types (mostly Scrappers and Brutes) with the right buffs/debuffs from your teammates.
2. YOU decided to make your blaster to go into melee. YOU had choices among your powers and decided, I suppose, to focus on picking more from your secondary powers than your primary powers, which are probably mostly made up of range attacks.
Now, there is this little nice tool call a respec, which I think we all are getting once i7 goes live. So I would strongly recommend that you shuffle your powers so you don't have to go into melee anymore and feel like you're at a disadvantage. There, problem solved!
Much regards,
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SnakeGandhi, with a good many Tankers stating that 'balance' is needing a team to kill them, with a good many Brutes saying that they'll go back to PvP now that they don't need to worry about Blasters anymore...
I can't see how you blame Concern.
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when people continuously blame everything bad that happens to certain ATs on other players, i can't see how you can blame them for getting upset with the loudest people who place that blame.
and i'm sure that people glad that toggle drops are being looked at has nothing to do with whether or not some sets were overpowered when they had such high chances of drops. I hope that the devs take a good hard look at restoring some of the dropping ability to sets that still need it though.
I know you guys know there is a middle ground between the idiots on both sides of this issue. Too many people find it too easy to just pretend the people you're arguing with are a bunch of morons you should just be taken out and shot.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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PvP is not built around 1v1 battles, so your blaster will have a good number of opportunities to defeat Melee types (mostly Scrappers and Brutes) with the right buffs/debuffs from your teammates.
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"Sure, I can easily beat you one - on - one. Sure, I can easily add a good 75-80% of the damage on a team, without any of the downsides, and with many times the survivability.
That's 'working as intended'!
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YOU decided to make your blaster to go into melee. YOU had choices among your powers and decided, I suppose, to focus on picking more from your secondary powers than your primary powers, which are probably mostly made up of range attacks.
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There are, on a standard Elec/EM (not exactly a stupidly FoTM combination, although one built a little harshly for PvE), has a total of 6 out of 12, or 50%, of his possible attacks which require melee range (that's including the ranged nuke and snipe, which really aren't going to be useful in PvP).
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1. PvP is not built around 1v1 battles, so your blaster will have a good number of opportunities to defeat Melee types (mostly Scrappers and Brutes) with the right buffs/debuffs from your teammates.
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Yes, why do melee players forget that if they have the same buffs that they will stomp a blaster into squishy paste? I take those buffs with my Brute and stomp blasters whenever I go to PvP, what is stopping the rest of the melee players out there?
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2. YOU decided to make your blaster to go into melee. YOU had choices among your powers and decided, I suppose, to focus on picking more from your secondary powers than your primary powers, which are probably mostly made up of range attacks.
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Blaster primary attacks are not balanced the same way that melee primary attacks are. Most of the blaster primary sets do not have a ranged attack chain. That is ignoreing how easy it is to catch a blaster attacking from range.
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Now, there is this little nice tool call a respec, which I think we all are getting once i7 goes live.
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There is a nice little phrase "Talking out of your [censored]" that applies to your advice.
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I used to be pretty reasonable on this subject, back when it was being discussed on the Tanker forums.
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Hahahaha. No stop it, please. Hahahaha.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I know you guys know there is a middle ground between the idiots on both sides of this issue. Too many people find it too easy to just pretend the people you're arguing with are a bunch of morons you should just be taken out and shot.
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I know there is a middle ground. I went out and found it months ago. However, there are some people that will never be happy with a middle ground. There are some melee players that are not interested in 50/50 battles. Am I supposed to just ignore thier happy pants dance? I guess I will, I don't need to go out of my way to prove that things are not balanced. I can just wait for the PvP crowd to do it for me.
Then of course there are the developers who decided that the best way to find the middle ground is not to design a new mechanic that would be more fun, but to instead overnerf and use datamining to keep the same mechanic but make it more palatable for the melee classes after they buff it.
Which is what really makes me upset, this entire nerf is nothing more than a datamining session by the developers and were the guinnea pigs.
More questions...
1. How offten has are tanks/scrappers/brutes defeated by fully ranged blasters?
2. How offten are the above defeated by blasters running in to melee using Ice or Fire secondaries?
3. Over all, what sets are the most threatening and least threatening to the mentioned melee?
Just so it is noted.... these are serious questions. (Devices not mentioned as it has one melee power and thats taser...)
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Dipshit.
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And here I was just wondering why I had you on ignore for so long. Thanks for so effectively restoring my faith in my fellow posters to take every opportunity to resort to name calling and childlike verbal abuse if their not so persuasive argument is being trounced or ignored by others. But hey, the name calling sure makes your stand seem far more supportable! 
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SnakeGandhi, with a good many Tankers stating that 'balance' is needing a team to kill them
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If you keep dragging this dead horse out, I'll be happy to beat it every time.
One-on-one imbalance implies that some characters will need help to defeat some others. Because of their by-design inherent toughness, I utterly fail to see how it is a problem of any sort that Tankers in particular should require multiple damage dealers or a damage dealer and a buffer/debuffer to defeat. I just don't see it. You keep dragging out that it's a problem but you never offer anything to convince me that it is. It's like arguing that gravity is unfair to large people. I don't get it.
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with a good many Brutes saying that they'll go back to PvP now that they don't need to worry about Blasters anymore...
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Maybe because, in a team context (you know, the way the devs want you to play) it was positively impossible to keep any toggles up. Any one melee character simply suffered under mass toggle dropping. Sure, in a team context they too can be kept from being mezzed as a result, but the whole point of these ATs is that they are supposed to be armored. You can't tell me that it's reasonable that they have powers that simply never come into meaningful effect. In contrast Blasters do not have any such powers (barring EPP armor toggles, which they should also be able to use). It's a design point of the AT. They get attacks and more attacks. "Melee" ATs get attacks and armor. Why should that devolve into them getting attacks and nothing? Tit for tat? Blasters can't have it so no one else can either?
I have yet to see a single argument for toggle dropping as a fair mechanism given the dev-stated assumptions of the game. Those assumptions? PvP is balanced for team only. Some ATs are tougher than others. And Blasters are "glass cannons".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Which is what really makes me upset, this entire nerf is nothing more than a datamining session by the developers and were the guinnea pigs.
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that's practically every single change made to the game there though.
i don't like toggle dropping. i don't like that they've designed a pvp system that needs toggle dropping. I think we're unfortunately stuck with it though as a complete revamp ain't gonna happen. it sucks, but the best thing i think we can do know is hopefully get them to alter the percentages for the people that still need it.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
thats exactly right. as soon as everyone figures out that pvp is not balanced for things like Fight Clubs and 1 vs 1 duels than maybe we can start to come to a comprise
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Because we have been told over and over and over and over and over and over and over that this is not balanced for one-v-one. By definition, that means that one-v-one is imbalanced for some pair-offs. I don't remember anyone saying that Blasters had a special place as an AT that could take on just enyone else and win.
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It would be really nice if melee remembered that they need a team too. Even now in SC it is incredibly easy to get kills with a BRUTE if you have a team behind you. A couple of corruptors and toggle drops are laughable since the blaster that attacked you in melee is dead before he figures out why your not.
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I hope you aren't reminding me of that. Because I know it. In fact, if you look at my earlier posts, I mention not only how I think a Blaster with backup and/or buffs is going to maul the melee guys pretty well, but the melee guys aren't going to be able to kill one another very efficiently.
You start slapping -DR and -Regen and slows on people and suddenly things don't look so rosy for those big invincible melees.
Yeah, OK, you are going to have the Wild-Bill Scrappers, Tankers and Brutes wandering places like Siren's Call. So what. They're tough. They can handle small-scale engagements and either win or flee. Bring a team in there and they're toast if they stay solo.
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Thats okay though, just keep telling blasters to get a team. Remember when Tanks got extra damage? Remember when they took away the lack of mobility? There is always a flip side. Enjoy being overpowered while you can, cry when the other shoe drops like melee always does.
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I'm not enjoying anything. I play squishies in PvP. Squishies who've never had toggle drops. I'm the one doing the healing and the debuffing. With a much poo-pooed powerset, I might add.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA