No more de-toggles?

Bonecrusher....ugh...drops 2 toggles...how many does Total Focus drop? if it's 2, then I'm stabbing something...

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So, I've been reading around the tanker forums, get a grasp on how things will be. And I've stumbled upon a couple of sayings that there will be no more detoggling.

First, I was wondering if this was true.

Second, I was wondering if it was just Brawl, or all of them.

And third, if it is true, I think its a huge problem. The only way I can beat a BRUTE is through detoggling him. And I detoggle him through Brawl. Wait until Unyielding or wahtever hes using goes down, then hit him with IS. All toggles go down, I pummel him to death.

Granted, this is a huge OK for all tanks, because this is your biggest weak point. But its also the way for many AT's to beat you, and they cant without it.

And although tanks damage isnt te best (Aside from SS), it still can kill quite a few AT's, Brute vs. Tank would be tough. But Tanks still can dish out some insane damage with PVP specced.

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Detoggling isn't going away. But, it is being reigned in by a large margin.

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Detoggling is a kludge. Its another one of those strange mechanics that becomes more important in and of itself than the powers we use to create our characters.

It should be difficult but not impossible to overcome toggles using our powers, not strange mechanics.

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While I believe I understand what you mean, I'm wondering how this logic also doesn't apply to de-buffs? A de-buff is also a mechanic to 'drop' a buff, and so is also 'strange mechanics'.

The importance here though is that tankers in particular suffer from toggle dropping since it is the basis of their primary (defense, which should be continuous).

This would be an interesting mechanism. What if each toggle had a color ring around it. Green means full, yellow and orange mean damaged, red means off. Now, every time a toggle WOULD have been dropped it is dropped in status (green->yellow->orange->red). A power can be restored to green by re-clicking on it, if it has re-generated.

Now it is the tank's own dang fault if he LETS his toggles COMPLETELY drop, since he has plenty of warning! The power is at full until it reaches red, at which point it must be re-activiated to have any affect.

I know, too much of a change, but thought I'd mention it anyway...

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Can Blasters get some more unresistable damage to compensate? Since even with detoggling we where pretty ineffective against tankers.

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Yea sure, how about we also make them "ignore high hp and just always take a fixed % out of all characters HP bars regardless of AT" while at it. That will surely give them a better chance at beating up everyone in the entire game, regardless of the other AT's definition of being tough to kill.

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NO MORE DETOGGLING MEZ PROTECTION.

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I wish they did that.

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Can Blasters get some more unresistable damage to compensate? Since even with detoggling we where pretty ineffective against tankers.

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30 per cent unresistable damage isn't enough for you? There is more than one way to skin a cat, you know?

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Tell that to any Blaster that has to contend with a Stone Tanker in Granite. Not going to happen.

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Balancing the game so a blaster can take out a granite tanker would mean making it so the blaster kills a defender by just staring his way.

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Bonecrusher....ugh...drops 2 toggles...how many does Total Focus drop? if it's 2, then I'm stabbing something...

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Total Focus doesn't drop toggles (other than if it stuns you, which it shouldn't unless you have your trousers down). Energy Melee's Toggle Drops are in Energy Punch and Bonecrusher.

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..... i feel bad for my dark armor buds that have to do the dark armor dance as they try and activate all their toggles again.

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Once I get 3 more shields on my DM/DA brute, I need to set up a "Saftey Dance" macro.

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Detoggling is a kludge. Its another one of those strange mechanics that becomes more important in and of itself than the powers we use to create our characters.

It should be difficult but not impossible to overcome toggles using our powers, not strange mechanics.

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Precisely. Exactly. QFE.

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QFT & E again.

Great news.
Looking forward to this totally overpowered mechanic getting balanced so that melee defenses are no longer so effortlessly trivialized in PvP.

Co* PvP is already a status-jack fest where inflicting damage is a secondary objective to rendering your opponent unable to act and where your more likely to survive carrying all BF's instead of Respites.

This is a step in the right direction.
Sadly many in the blaster community dont want this fixed - many of them would rather rely on a broken mechanic to be successful and just keep dreaming up delusional conspiracies created by the "melee player community" to get thier AT nerfed - instead of focusing on getting everything else thats wrong with the AT adjusted - so they dont have to depend on this mechanic to begin with.

'bout time.

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So, I've been reading around the tanker forums, get a grasp on how things will be. And I've stumbled upon a couple of sayings that there will be no more detoggling.

First, I was wondering if this was true.

Second, I was wondering if it was just Brawl, or all of them.

And third, if it is true, I think its a huge problem. The only way I can beat a BRUTE is through detoggling him. And I detoggle him through Brawl. Wait until Unyielding or wahtever hes using goes down, then hit him with IS. All toggles go down, I pummel him to death.

Granted, this is a huge OK for all tanks, because this is your biggest weak point. But its also the way for many AT's to beat you, and they cant without it.

And although tanks damage isnt te best (Aside from SS), it still can kill quite a few AT's, Brute vs. Tank would be tough. But Tanks still can dish out some insane damage with PVP specced.

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Detoggling isn't going away. But, it is being reigned in by a large margin.

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Please don't gimp Dominators anymore. Detoggles is about all we had going for us in PVP. Don't forget us please!

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Bonecrusher....ugh...drops 2 toggles...how many does Total Focus drop? if it's 2, then I'm stabbing something...

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Total Focus doesn't drop toggles (other than if it stuns you, which it shouldn't unless you have your trousers down). Energy Melee's Toggle Drops are in Energy Punch and Bonecrusher.

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I see...that doesn't make much sense to me...a power you can get a lv 4 as a tank or lv 2 as a brute that can drop 2 toggles is just silly yet your alpha can't do it...

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Bonecrusher....ugh...drops 2 toggles...how many does Total Focus drop? if it's 2, then I'm stabbing something...

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Total Focus doesn't drop toggles (other than if it stuns you, which it shouldn't unless you have your trousers down). Energy Melee's Toggle Drops are in Energy Punch and Bonecrusher.

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I see...that doesn't make much sense to me...a power you can get a lv 4 as a tank or lv 2 as a brute that can drop 2 toggles is just silly yet your alpha can't do it...of course in exchange Bonecrusher would lose it's 2 toggle drop.

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So, I've been reading around the tanker forums, get a grasp on how things will be. And I've stumbled upon a couple of sayings that there will be no more detoggling.

First, I was wondering if this was true.

Second, I was wondering if it was just Brawl, or all of them.

And third, if it is true, I think its a huge problem. The only way I can beat a BRUTE is through detoggling him. And I detoggle him through Brawl. Wait until Unyielding or wahtever hes using goes down, then hit him with IS. All toggles go down, I pummel him to death.

Granted, this is a huge OK for all tanks, because this is your biggest weak point. But its also the way for many AT's to beat you, and they cant without it.

And although tanks damage isnt te best (Aside from SS), it still can kill quite a few AT's, Brute vs. Tank would be tough. But Tanks still can dish out some insane damage with PVP specced.

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Detoggling isn't going away. But, it is being reigned in by a large margin.

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I'll wait till I see how the developers have reacted this time to mass hysteria. Hopefully a "large margin" is the reverse of a "small tweak".

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Hopefully a "large margin" is the exponential brother of a "small tweak".

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So, I've been reading around the tanker forums, get a grasp on how things will be. And I've stumbled upon a couple of sayings that there will be no more detoggling.

First, I was wondering if this was true.

Second, I was wondering if it was just Brawl, or all of them.

And third, if it is true, I think its a huge problem. The only way I can beat a BRUTE is through detoggling him. And I detoggle him through Brawl. Wait until Unyielding or wahtever hes using goes down, then hit him with IS. All toggles go down, I pummel him to death.

Granted, this is a huge OK for all tanks, because this is your biggest weak point. But its also the way for many AT's to beat you, and they cant without it.

And although tanks damage isnt te best (Aside from SS), it still can kill quite a few AT's, Brute vs. Tank would be tough. But Tanks still can dish out some insane damage with PVP specced.

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Detoggling isn't going away. But, it is being reigned in by a large margin.

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I'll wait till I see how the developers have reacted this time to mass hysteria. Hopefully a "large margin" is the reverse of a "small tweak".

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Hopefully a "large margin" is the exponential brother of a "small tweak".

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Please, not tonight Foo, I am in no mood to dance. This headache is killing me. Anyone got a poison trap from /poison to put me to sleep?

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I see...that doesn't make much sense to me...a power you can get a lv 4 as a tank or lv 2 as a brute that can drop 2 toggles is just silly yet your alpha can't do it...

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The brute and tanker versions don't drop toggles (outside of mezzing). Excluding Brawl, which everyone gets and drops toggles for everyone, ATs with higher levels of self-protection don't get toggledroppers.

As to why BC or EP take down toggles while TF doesn't, well, the lower level powers are supposed to be the ones used more often.

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Hopefully a "large margin" is the exponential brother of a "small tweak".


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'Small Tweak' is Statesman.

'Large Margin' is Castle.

But I bet a million dollars that they mean the same thing.

Sorry blasters! Not that I ever thought you could toggle-drop and stun like a stalker with perma-AS and no cooldown was ever balanced!

Sorry stalkers! Not that I ever thought you could do the same with your /energy melee, while your other primaries end up being inherently weaker by comparison!

Good, I say. Toggle Dropping needed to go. It can stay around, some AT's need it, brawl can keep it, but the instantaneous removal of all a person's toggles is and was just nuts. Glad to see it's prevalence go.

Screw you, Blasters! Go play a real AT, like a Scrapper or Tanker. Like the Energy Melee tanker that does 80% of the damage, has mez protection, and gets Energy Transfer, too!

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Screw you, Blasters! Go play a real AT, like a Scrapper or Tanker. Like the Energy Melee tanker that does 80% of the damage, has mez protection, and gets Energy Transfer, too!

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This cracks me up. So you, as a blaster, are jealous of tankers in pvp?

Ok...I never say this...but [censored], kid. Honestly.

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This cracks me up. So you, as a blaster, are jealous of tankers in pvp?

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Nah, can't play blasters for a crap.

But I see what I see, and both experience and number crunching gives a scene far different from the "OMG BLASTERSKILLEWALL!"

But, hey, go on, keep telling us how that class with no mez protection keeps running up within Stun range and handing you your [censored].

EDIT :

To be more specific :
Tankers have 156% of Blaster HP.
Blasters have 125% of Tanker damage.

Even without your toggles, without DP/HF/EE, and with the Blaster having both Aim and BU active, compared to a tanker with only BU, a Blaster can only do 151% of a Tanker's damage if they had the same powerset.

Of course, they don't. Energy Transfer is a damn nice trade compared to Boost Range.

Well, gee, those are excellent numbers.....that discount: range, damage type, un-resistable damage, defiance, epic power pools, resists, defenses, detoggling effects, mez effects, and many other variables.

But...please...go on telling me how the number 1 pvp AT in the game is gimped compared to tankers. I'm gonna go get some popcorn....brb...

I have to say, I'm not by any means the best PvPer around - but I'd enjoy it a whole lot more without persistant toggle-drops.

Thats not to say I'm utterly unkillable without 'em. Far from it. I've been face-planted by Brutes, Dominators, Corrupters et al without needing to be TD'd - and that's with a build that one hardcore PvPer called, "great"... despite not actually gearing it towards anything other than PvE.

At the end of the day, denying Tankers their Primary toggles with a plethora of means available to all is like asking a Blaster or Scrapper not to use their Primaries. It's a fudge of a mechanic, in a system that still needs work and revision.

I'd be all for a PvP damage increase to other ATs IF the negation of TD completely throws the combat out of whack, but I do not want to play "Hunt The Toggle" any more. Winning by it may be fun for the victor, but it's just plain UNfun for the Tanker who experiences it.

And thats what this game is about, right? Fun. For all

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Personally, I think tanks should become the "main" detogglers.....other classes like Blasters should have it removed completely...pretty much like Scrappers have no ability to detoggle.

This would actually give tankers a place in PvP...right now, tankers are pretty much useless for the most part in PvP.

Or, if Blaster do keep a bit of detoggle ability, tankers should be much better at it....

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Sorry I disagree whole heartedly (sp?) if your going to remove blaster toggle dropping completly, then your going to have to increase blaster damage to put a hurt on tankers thru all thier def,resistence,hp, and shields. Yes tanks should be able to take a beating but not to the point where one of the highest damaging AT has no chance of killing them

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Personally, I think tanks should become the "main" detogglers.....other classes like Blasters should have it removed completely...pretty much like Scrappers have no ability to detoggle.

This would actually give tankers a place in PvP...right now, tankers are pretty much useless for the most part in PvP.

Or, if Blaster do keep a bit of detoggle ability, tankers should be much better at it....

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Sorry I disagree whole heartedly (sp?) if your going to remove blaster toggle dropping completly, then your going to have to increase blaster damage to put a hurt on tankers thru all thier def,resistence,hp, and shields. Yes tanks should be able to take a beating but not to the point where one of the highest damaging AT has no chance of killing them

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I can't see how that is a concern. I mean, really. From my PoV, INV Tankers have had their defences slashed. Honestly. Invincibility is largely useless against ranged. Our passives are woeful. Our shields are no more than umbrellas. The one thing I have going for me is Unstoppable (unavailable in all but one map), Dull Pain, and a stock-full of greens/break-frees. And even the greens are dependant on our mez protection.

A Blaster with SOs shouldn't actually have too much of a problem with a Tanker with SOs. I mean, I can't kill you with Temporary Invunerability. I'm a melee AT. Blasters are ranged. If one gets close enough for me to pummle, there's no blame to go around but theirs.

Just as I have to chew on purples or greens to survive, Blasters should have to chew on blues and reds to beat me.

Symmetry.

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I see...that doesn't make much sense to me...a power you can get a lv 4 as a tank or lv 2 as a brute that can drop 2 toggles is just silly yet your alpha can't do it...

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The brute and tanker versions don't drop toggles (outside of mezzing). Excluding Brawl, which everyone gets and drops toggles for everyone, ATs with higher levels of self-protection don't get toggledroppers.

As to why BC or EP take down toggles while TF doesn't, well, the lower level powers are supposed to be the ones used more often.

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I see...I guess it's only the Blasters' Bonecrusher that drops toggles...very annoying as a Regen w/ only one Toggle >.<

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Well, gee, those are excellent numbers.....that discount: range,

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Pointless since this debate is over toggledroppers that don't apply in range.
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damage type,

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I didn't give the Tanker any resistance or defense values, so damage type is kinda moot.
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un-resistable damage,

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Ditto
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defiance,

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My numbers assumed a) aim, b) build up, c) three damage SOs. The total maximum damage buff a Blaster can recieve from any source after this point would typically be minimal (given the first hit tends to be the last one in either direction).
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epic power pools,

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BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Okay, you're going to compare a toggle shield on an AT that can not get mez protection is going to shift the tide more than say, a ranged mez?
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resists,

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See damage type.[ QUOTE ]
defenses,

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detoggling effects,

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mez effects,

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and many other variables.

[/ QUOTE ]which you couldn't name if pressed?

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But...please...go on telling me how the number 1 pvp AT in the game is gimped compared to tankers. I'm gonna go get some popcorn....brb...

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When did I bring up controllers or scrappers? Stalkers?

wait...Tankers are gimped? damn...I must of just shruged off a team of 4-5 stalkers while I was running towards the Siren's Call gate a couple weeks ago o_O

/e tries to find something to do besides being bored but fails T.T

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Pointless since this debate is over toggledroppers that don't apply in range.

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Wait... Ranged doesn't toggle-drop? But I thought that was one of the Blasters' reasons why they wanted to keep TD in. I'm sure I've been blasted into shut-down....