[ QUOTE ]
This certainly explains things!
[/ QUOTE ] Yes it does.
FA is tantamount to +DEF for everyone who has to fight the mobs. What you probably don't notice is that FA is nearly doubling (depending on build) the +DEF of any /SR or Invinc using scrappers/tanks on the team.
What you probably don't notice is that with all the /Rad controllers, FA+RI create a virtual black hole around the anchor.
What you probably don't notice is that FA reduces the return alpha when using a /Regen for tank to just low enough for allow them to survive and get back to full health.
All of that would require you have some skill and knowledge about the game. So I'm not surprised that you may not "notice" a lot of things.
FA is not teh uber -Acc debuff. It is still a great power.
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My TA provides more debuffs, on average than my Rad.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then please never, ever, ever, play Radiation again. Radiation Emission can debuff defense. Trick Arrow can't. Radiation Emission can debuff regeneration. Trick Arrow can't. Radiation Emission has a Slow and Recharge debuff that's up 1/3rd of the time base. Trick Arrow's? 1/4th. Resistance debuffs? Trick Arrow falls behind whenever Hasten's down.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have hasten, I'm level 21, I can use disruption arrow almost every fight. By the way, are you aware that acid arrow not only debuffs defense, but takes defense debuff enhancements? Glue arrow is up every fight now, solo. In a team it may be up two times a fight. Regen, um yeah I'll grant you that one.
Thing is, when soloing I now don't NEED more then Ice Arrow and Acid Arrow most times. To get preformance putting me on par with other sets (barely) all it took was just about every slot I got by level 21 going for recharge in my primary powers. That's not good. Lower the recharges PLEASE. You made flash arrow non-stacking, can't you devs please make the other powers non-stacking so recharges can be reasonable again? No other power set I've played needs to slot 2 or 3 recharge in every single power.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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If your criteria for a useful power is that you have to "notice" it, then we are on different wavelengths.
[/ QUOTE ]
This certainly explains things!
[/ QUOTE ]
Irony
Since you seemed to have missed it. . .
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Radiation can debuff defense to the point where accuracy enhancements are unneeded against purple-con mobs.
[/ QUOTE ] Right...right...and how many people do you know take out their acc enhancements because of it? Do you know any Rads that take out their acc enhancements because of it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Shamefaced raises hand
Then again my TA/A doesn't have any acc enhancements slotted eather except for in a couple primary powers.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
As to Location AoEs requiring less skill; I think you and I must be using a completely different definition of skill. Even with appropriate binds, which not everyone uses, Location AoEs require more skill because its much easier to throw an arrow to the wrong spot. If you think Location AoEs require less skill, you must be thinking the level of skill required to pick and click on a spot both from a judgement perspective and a mechanical skill perspective is essentially zero, and the only issue with Location AoEs is that they allow you to pick potentially better spots than targetted AoEs. That completely dismisses the issue of skill: Location AoEs can be more flexible, but to say they require no skill to use suggests the base skill level you are judging from is extremely high.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's probably it then. To me, Trick Arrow seems far more straightforward than any other Defender primary it acts (unsurprisingly...) pretty much exactly like a Controller, which I find to be fairly simple, if generally unrewarding (to me) given the general lack of control (and I play a 42 Earth Controller too 
) post nerf. To me, at least, basic concepts such as Line of Sight, the importance of what debuffs when, etc, is something you only need to figure out once, and should easily be covered within the first 20 levels of play.
My standards might just be too high, but I really don't see anything complicated about it, it's the kind of thing I learned playing inumerable other games or trying to beat the tar out of my brothers as a kid.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
FA is tantamount to +DEF for everyone who has to fight the mobs. What you probably don't notice is that FA is nearly doubling (depending on build) the +DEF of any /SR or Invinc using scrappers/tanks on the team
[/ QUOTE ]
At level 2 maybe. There is no way that Flash Arrow comes anywhere close to doubling the Defense of even a remotely competantly built Super Reflexes Scrapper.
And a question: Just wondering where you get the acc debuff as being 20%? Because the tested numbers I've seen peg it as being alot lower, more like 7%. I certainly dont feel it's anywhere close to 20% when I use it, so Im curious.
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Two effects are applied when you cast Glue Arrow (it helps if you know how the power works). One is that a debuff is applied to every mob in the AoE effect of the power on casting of the power and this is due to the TA defender. Then, a pet or spawn is created that casts it's own debuff every tic. These already do not stack. Obviously they can make non-stacking debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ] I don't believe this is correc.t The debuff is applied by the patch...not the defender...otherwise they would stack. I can stack debuffs with Dark Servant.
As you point out, Glue does two things. It applies a sticky debuff which is not dependent on its existance and it also reinfects anyone who enters the patch. This means that after the patch is gone, mobs are still affected by the debuff.
Now, I don't have a dev response saying this is how it works, but as you said, it helps to know how the power works, which appears to be different than your understanding.
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So, removing the pet and applying the same mechanics of Smoke Grenade and other powers could work.
[/ QUOTE ] I've already addressed this. It's a question of making the power too good. Permanent anchorless, sticky, debuffs are very powerful. This is probably why FA is lower than DN and why PGA only debuffs one thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fact I've noticed during game play, when GA's patch expires so does the debuff. When the original target dies, so does the debuff patch. After that the debuff goes very soon as well. NEXT.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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[ QUOTE ]
FA is tantamount to +DEF for everyone who has to fight the mobs. What you probably don't notice is that FA is nearly doubling (depending on build) the +DEF of any /SR or Invinc using scrappers/tanks on the team
[/ QUOTE ]
At level 2 maybe. There is no way that Flash Arrow comes anywhere close to doubling the Defense of even a remotely competantly built Super Reflexes Scrapper.
And a question: Just wondering where you get the acc debuff as being 20%? Because the tested numbers I've seen peg it as being alot lower, more like 7%. I certainly dont feel it's anywhere close to 20% when I use it, so Im curious.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed...and 7% HARDLY makes it a great power.
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And a question: Just wondering where you get the acc debuff as being 20%? Because the tested numbers I've seen peg it as being alot lower, more like 7%. I certainly dont feel it's anywhere close to 20% when I use it, so Im curious.
[/ QUOTE ] It has the same base value as Smoke Grenade * the AT Modifier. Way back when....it was posted by Geko or someone that there was a misplaced decimal in SG and it was debuffing 100% not 10%. However.....that may have been in reference to the -perception debuff. If SG is 10%...then the defender version is 11.25%. That's about 20% with SO's. /SR's Toggles provide about 19% three slotted.
In any event, stacking what is essentially +DEF on +DEF toons is more valueable than stacking +DEF on non-Defensen based toons.
But as a TA...you won't "notice" this in the course of a battle.
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Shamefaced raises hand
Then again my TA/A doesn't have any acc enhancements slotted eather except for in a couple primary powers.
[/ QUOTE ] When this supposition was posted, I had assumed he meant the value for a team. My point was that no one forgoes acc because they are counting on the debuff from RI. He may have meant just the defender. In that case...no...you don't need Acc enhancements if you slot RI for -DEF....assuming you never attack anything that isn't under the effects of RI....good luck in PvP.
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Fact I've noticed during game play, when GA's patch expires so does the debuff. When the original target dies, so does the debuff patch. After that the debuff goes very soon as well. NEXT.
[/ QUOTE ] IME....the debuff is independent of the patch. But it last less than a minute once the toon leaves the patch...whether the patch is active or not. Even after the patch is gone, I've heard the debuff bubbly glue sound on mobs and noticed they were still slowed. Whether there is some gitch with the graphics, I don't know. The poitn of the post you responded to is that the patch applies the debuff, not the defender.
Would you consider it a horrible nerf, if, say, the debuff died whenever the patch did, one patch would override the other, and the recharge was cut in half, Mieux?
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Unless you three-slot FA with accuracy, you would have been missing those +3 bosses with FA a significant amount of time
[/ QUOTE ] Tonight..I was one of two defenders on team facing 32's. I'm 28. The other defender was Rad without RI and EF, seems he's well known. We faced off against Coven. Group of 10-12 +4's...FA misses 2. I fire it again...it misses 1. This is with a one +3 Acc and Tactics without any to-hit buffs slotted. This is against lvl 32's....+4 to me. And this is my typical experience. I miss one or two out of any given spawn. On +3 boss...I was hitting 70% or so.
You brought up the value of the -acc debuff. I agree that as you face higher level mobs....the disparity becomes more pronounced. This is may be part of why they are going to the 50% BTH for all mobs. This will reduce the diparity between powers like FA and DN against higher level mobs.
Acid Arrow is saaaweeet. Great recharge. I was consistently hitting +3 boss with it. It's kind of cool how the radius is small. Sometimes forces you to choose between one tough target or a group of lesser targets.
As an aside, Coven...very very very bad for anchor debuffing. The bosses and crew fly all over the frikin room when people don't aggro from melee. The mavens drain endo like there is no tomorrow. Had another four courner aggro. Total chaos...RI..wouldn't 'have done much. One Entangle and I could bring the boss down to the floor and slap Glue Arrow on her.
EDIT:
I just remembered...there might have been someone else running Tactics too during that +4 run.
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Unless you three-slot FA with accuracy, you would have been missing those +3 bosses with FA a significant amount of time
[/ QUOTE ] Tonight..I was one of two defenders on team facing 32's. I'm 28. The other defender was Rad without RI and EF, seems he's well known. We faced off against Coven. Group of 10-12 +4's...FA misses 2. I fire it again...it misses 1. This is with a one +3 Acc and Tactics without any to-hit buffs slotted. This is against lvl 32's....+4 to me. And this is my typical experience. I miss one or two out of any given spawn. On +3 boss...I was hitting 70% or so.
You brought up the value of the -acc debuff. I agree that as you face higher level mobs....the disparity becomes more pronounced. This is may be part of why they are going to the 50% BTH for all mobs. This will reduce the diparity between powers like FA and DN against higher level mobs.
Acid Arrow is saaaweeet. Great recharge. I was consistently hitting +3 boss with it. It's kind of cool how the radius is small. Sometimes forces you to choose between one tough target or a group of lesser targets.
As an aside, Coven...very very very bad for anchor debuffing. The bosses and crew fly all over the frikin room when people don't aggro from melee. The mavens drain endo like there is no tomorrow. Had another four courner aggro. Total chaos...RI..wouldn't 'have done much. One Entangle and I could bring the boss down to the floor and slap Glue Arrow on her.
EDIT:
I just remembered...there might have been someone else running Tactics too during that +4 run.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, what your really argueing is that our suggested changes would make the set overpowered in your opinion and that you love the set exactly the way it is.
That can be the only reason that I can see you continueing to argue against those of us who are seeking to balance the set by improving it.
We say it isn't balanced, and you say the play style is something you like. Which isn't something we are argueing. You say it provides mitigation similar to other sets, we show you that it doesn't.
Yet, you continue to come in here and attempt to keep any change and progress from happening with the set by saying that you like it as it is. Which is exactly what will happen. It only takes one person saying that they like a set the way it is to simply let the devs look the other way (unless the devs are looking to nerf something).
Frankly Mieux, your a hinderance. You have said your piece. You believe that it provedes adequate damage mitigation, the majority of us disagree. Lets leave it at that because that is exactly what this round robin arguement has become. We are just going in circles over the issues of Trick Arrow for what seems to be the third time now. Time to let this thread die.
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and that you love the set exactly the way it is.
[/ QUOTE ] I said if you are skilled, TA is a great set. I never said it was perfect or beyond improvement.
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You say it provides mitigation similar to other sets, we show you that it doesn't.
[/ QUOTE ] You've shown me no such thing. I said from day one that D/D is better than the rest of the sets. I said from day one that Rad/Rad is arguably a better set. You haven't shown me anything.
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Yet, you continue to come in here and attempt to keep any change and progress from happening
[/ QUOTE ] Show me where I do that. Show me a single post.
The fact is, people on here, and I include you specificaly in that group, feel the need to exaggerate their case. There is this attitude that if you don't act like the set is in dire circumstances, it won't get any fixes. To that end, you attack anyone who disagrees with your assertions, no matter how delusional or inaccurate yours may be. You're not interested in understanding how a set might be better balanced than you realized. You can't see it, there fore it doesn't exit. You're saying what it can't do, I'm telling you what it can.
Reality be damned, Flash Arrow does nothing. Reality be damned, RI is always on 100% of the mobs 100% of the time.
Grow up just a little.
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As an aside, Coven...very very very bad for anchor debuffing. The bosses and crew fly all over the frikin room when people don't aggro from melee.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even in melee they fly all over the place. That's why I like Snowstorm. It'll keep em all on the ground and goin nowhere fast (or somewhere slow).
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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There is this attitude that if you don't act like the set is in dire circumstances, it won't get any fixes.
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That seems to be the only way things get changed from a player perspective. It seems to take at times over a year to get powersets changed or tweaked unless a developer has an agenda with that powerset. I would rather not wait a year before TA gets tweaked thank you very much.
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You're not interested in understanding how a set might be better balanced than you realized.
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Your right, because when the set came out and was on test most of the experienced posters on TA went over how it was balanced and what benefits it had then. We have also had months to compare those benefits to what we see with our other defenders and have come to the conclusion that the set needs some tweaks to be on par. Thus, we don't need you to tell us what advantages TA has compared to other sets.
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You're saying what it can't do, I'm telling you what it can.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since I am looking for tweaks to get it to do what it can't do, that may be a good reason why I keep bringing it up. The only reason I can see why you keep bringing up what it can is that you want it to stay the same. If you don't want it to stay the same, then lend some support to those asking for tweaks.
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Grow up just a little.
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After about your third go around trying to convince those that think the set needs improvements that it doesn't need improvements I was thinking the same thing about you.
Saying that a set is not beyond improvement is not the same thing as saying that a set needs improvement. If you don't think the set needs improvement then you are satisfied with it as it is and the only reason I can see with you persisting in posting is to keep it the way it is.
Unless you do think it needs improvement but for some reason want to tout every scenario where you percieve that the set performed better than a typical Toggle set. That doesn't seem very logical though. I guess you could be argueing for arguements sake but that brings me back to thinking that perhaps you should grow up a bit.
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Even in melee they fly all over the place.
[/ QUOTE ] The key is to get the alpha directed at:
1) Someone with more hitpoints than myself.
2) Someone who is centrally located so that any mobs that are slated to enter melee range on aggro, stay centrally located.
Using FA...allows a scrapper or tank to go straight to the center before the aggro starts. As soon as I see them get in there....I fire PGA and Oil Slick and Glue Arrow if needed. Oil Slick seems to cause knockdown on targets that fly just above the Oil Slick. This tactic has been extremely successful in keeping the mobs in a group small enough for both OS and DA to affect them. But if you get trigger happy controllers or blasters who attack from range...this immediately splinters the spawn.
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Your right, because when the set came out and was on test most of the experienced posters on TA went over how it was balanced and what benefits it had then.
[/ QUOTE ] and yet they changed it...why?
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Thus, we don't need you to tell us what advantages TA has compared to other sets.
[/ QUOTE ] My posts are primarily for people who haven't tried the set. I'm not trying to convince people who's minds are made up despite their erroneous comparisons.
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The only reason I can see why you keep bringing up what it can is that you want it to stay the same.
[/ QUOTE ] I post in response to people who ask how good/bad is TA. Everytime I do that, I get people like you and Goofy telling me there's no way the set can be great. YOU are the one trying to censure me.
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trying to convince those that think the set needs improvements that it doesn't need improvements
[/ QUOTE ] Once again...show me a single post where I say this.
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That doesn't seem very logical though.
[/ QUOTE ] What is logical is identifying where the set is good and where the set is bad. What is logical is attempting to understand why the debuff/recharge/mechanics are set up the way they are in comparison to the other sets. It's not like Geko never heard of Darkest Night or Radiation Infection when he set the value for Flash Arrow.
I'm going say something that you've undoubtedly heard before. I said it to Centrefire and Starshield. If you want to improve a set, you need to understand why the set is set up the way it is. Pretending that RI is always better than FA, in any circumstance, is antithetical to that endeavor. If you can show me that the devs design AND balance these powers in a vacuum, then I'll concede your approach.
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Saying that a set is not beyond improvement is not the same thing as saying that a set needs improvement.
[/ QUOTE ] Didn't someone say Positron already feels like TA is sub-par? Why do you care what I say about the set? Haven't you already won your battle? Why not let someone praise TA in peace?
[ QUOTE ]
Would you consider it a horrible nerf, if, say, the debuff died whenever the patch did, one patch would override the other, and the recharge was cut in half, Mieux?
[/ QUOTE ]
If I understand your suggestion correctly, this amounts to a debuff that is:
1) anchorless - not reliant on any target to sustain it. Not susceptible to getting turned off by mezing the caster or from the death of the caster.
2) permanent - it recharges before it expires and thus can be reapplied so at to permanently affect any target or group of targets.
3) sticky - in that it stays on the target outside the patch
4) more flexible - powers that recharge faster give you more tactical options.
I would not consider this a nerf (whose term I suspect is a red herring on your part) but a considerable buff.
First of all this is just hung off the last post.
Plus sides to TA from my experiance on test pre and post balancing as well as playing on on live:
1. No anchors
2. Synergizes well with archery
3. Once a debuff string is started they fire quickly
4. Many tools for any given situation.
Cons:
1. Recharge is entirely too long
2. The debuffs don't always seem to do anything (didn't even notice PGA's main effect for the longest time.)
3. Flash Arrow is next to useless
4. Glue Arrow can't affect or target anything in the air, nor prevents jumping.
5. Entangle arrow, why the heck did they remove it's -recharge again?
6. Ice Arrow's -recharge is so short it barely is useful in boss fights.
7. DA doesn't exactly last long enough IMHO.
8. When teamed with any other defender you feel useless
Yeah, the list of problems is twice as long as th list of pros to the set. That to me is a sign it needs improvement.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Your right, because when the set came out and was on test most of the experienced posters on TA went over how it was balanced and what benefits it had then.
[/ QUOTE ] and yet they changed it...why?
[/ QUOTE ]
Teams of trick arrows were combining their debuffs to amazing effect (as defenders tend to do).
Some vocal posters adamantly proposed that Trick Arrow should be a controller primary because it had "too much control." Others proposed it should be a blaster secondary because it had entangle arrow in the first tier.
At the same time, the devs decided to start nerfing control outside controller sets.
Also, one of the following might be possible:
The devs completely forgot how effective other defenders are and felt that reducing TA's effectiveness would be balanced.
or
The devs feel that TA effectiveness should be the target for defender primaries.
or
The devs overestimated TA effectiveness prior to nerf or underestimated it post-nerf.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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8. When teamed with any other defender you feel useless
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Actually I do think that's the one thing my Trick Arrow Defender is good at. If I have to be the Defender for a team we're sunk. I just can't do it, I dont have the tools for that job.
But if there's already a Defender on the team then my TA Defender is a good "facilitator". He does a decent job of speeding up fights and adding a little bit more protection to what the other Defender is already doing. He doesnt add any +Def or +Res or Healing so he'll never step on another Defender's toes or add buffs that are redundant. If there is such a thing, he's a decent Blastrollfender. But as a primary Defender he simply can't hack it and falls far short of every other Defender primary in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
Didn't someone say Positron already feels like TA is sub-par? Why do you care what I say about the set? Haven't you already won your battle? Why not let someone praise TA in peace?
[/ QUOTE ]
Positron said they would be keeping an eye on the set and that they would make changes if they felt it was necessary after the set went live.
We find out later from Castle's post that the developers may in the future look at TA. Which seems to indicate that they are not looking at it now despite what Positron said. That implies to me that it is a VERY low priority on the Dev's to-do list.
It wasn't until a HELL of alot of complaining that the developers noticed that Poison Gas arrow was balanced for how the set worked previously, not how the set works now with it's Targeted AoE nature. That leads me to believe that the set didn't recieve the proper attention that it should have being a new set to not just one but three different ATs (MM, Def, Con). It also suggests that the developers were not keeping an eye on it as they said they would.
Yet, I get you telling me that you suppose the that the developers did take into account ED in their recharge times when they re-balanced the set, yet they didn't take into account changeing the mechanics of a power? No, I think it is better to air on the side of caution and to assume that they didn't balance the set with ED in mind and that Poison Gas Arrow is not the only power that needs a tweak to get the set back into balance with other defender sets.
I feel I have very solid reason to not count my hens until they have hatched.
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If your criteria for a useful power is that you have to "notice" it, then we are on different wavelengths.
[/ QUOTE ]
This certainly explains things!