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Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled
[/ QUOTE ] I have enough skill not to need knockback in the first place.
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Now behave. Force Bolt (for example) is one hell of a useful and effective power used properly. Knockback doesn't *have* to be used to spread mobs out! Force Bolt bounce shots to drop strays into debuff fields was always a Starshield specialty.
It just takes skill to use KB in such a way that it sometimes benefits an AOE focused team, while it is extremely easy to use it in such a way as to completely cheese off your teammates.
[/ QUOTE ]Let's keep the discussion to the topic at hand and not go extrapolation beyond the intended scope of the statements. We are talking about AoE knockback...not Force Bolt. I use Force Bolt like it's free XP with my FF. If Arrow or Trick Arrow had a single target knockback as reliable as FB, I'd take it in a heart beat.
Exploding Arrow...is underwhelming. Both as a reliable form of soft control and as a damage dealer. If people like it...more power to them.
But Cone Knockbacks are situationally beneficial...and more often than not, in conflict with the use of other powers. Most people who seem to use them indiscrimintely do so because they lack important knowledge about other AT powers i.e. Invinc, Soul Drain, Fulcrum Shift, etc.
Or they have this lovely bit of knowledge called positioning, and use cone knockbacks to blow enemies toward walls or corners or Tankers. Or a power called hover, with which they can turn knockback into knockdown.
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Or they have this lovely bit of knowledge called positioning, and use cone knockbacks to blow enemies toward walls or corners or Tankers. Or a power called hover, with which they can turn knockback into knockdown.
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Surely the great Mieux must already know these things since he is such a skilled player. The obvious answer is that it doesn't suit his play style and therefore is not something to be discussed or considered when it comes to discussing Trick Arrow/Arrow or the skill it takes to use them.
Obviously, you can only discuss skill if you play the same way HE does or it doesn't matter and we are getting off track.
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Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled
[/ QUOTE ] I have enough skill not to need knockback in the first place.
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Don't make me hurt you.
PS: Start flashing targets and stand inside of them and see how long your trick archer can tank them. I now have five possessed scientists (level 50) inside of RI, and they've been swinging at me for oh, ten minutes now. One of them actually got lucky and hit me with gale and pushed me completely away from the group. What did the group of five do? Yep, rushed me all together, keeping all of them still inside the RI radius.
My SR scrapper can't do this with just the SR defenses and no elude, by the way.
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I don't know how many times I have to repeat this...but RI is a better debuff than FA on paper. Not only because it's got two debuffs, but because it's higher in value.
As such, there are situations where RI is awesome. There are situations were it's value is marginal. You ability to find a situation where it is awesome is not dispositive of anything, nor does it disprove anything that I've said.
My point is that in the context of teaming and playing, day in and day out, through good weather and bad,....RI's full potential for a to-hit debuff ONLY is not outdone by FA's debuff. If I had team of veterans...I'm going RI all the way. Give my Rad some status protection from an Empath or Kin, herd up the mobs...and RI alone saves a lot of time...the -def is awesome. Teams generally have the fire power...but against higher level mobs, they lack the accuracy. Why do I stick RI on the FF gen? Because radius issues aside, everywhere the gen goes...it's neutralized. It also makes it very easy to take the gen out quickly.
RI is a better power....I've said that like 10 times now. The game's environement counter-acts that power. Porters that pop in and out, are probably getting attacks off before they are hit by RI. That doesn't happen with FA.
Arc, do me a favor...show me the # of attacks someone has to be outside of RI for the 20% debuff to be as good as a partial 37% debuff. To the extent that you fight mobs that can avoid RI for that many attacks...FA is a better debuff. If you happen to fight mobs the clump like flies on [censored], then RI is better. If you fight things that disperse on aggro, like Thorn Casters...I'm going with FA.
I've been duoing a lot with my Rad and an EN blaster. On average, only a 1/3 of the mobs are in RI at any given point. His attacks tend to knock them all over the room. Gunners do not clump with the punchers. Sure...you can herd, but that takes time. On large teams...it takes coordination.
The other night in Croa...I was teamed with a blaster who just wanted to start every batttle. She knew it wasn't smart, but she enjoyed the rush. My TA was much better at debuffing mobs in that situation because I could quickly FA them and PGA them after she opened with an AoE. If that had been Rad...it would have been much harder. It was an out door mission and if not for FA, we would have aggro'd multiple groups frequently.
Bad PuG? Probably....but TA allowed me to keep it together with help from others..in a way that was easier than it would have been with Rad.
Rad is better. TA is still great.
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My SR scrapper can't do this with just the SR defenses and no elude, by the way
[/ QUOTE ] My D3 took on a +2 wolf boss. He hit me once as I put DN on him...and not one time after that. Must have missed me 20 times before I killed him. No way my /SR is that good without Elude. What's your point?
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Or they have this lovely bit of knowledge called positioning, and use cone knockbacks to blow enemies toward walls or corners or Tankers. Or a power called hover, with which they can turn knockback into knockdown.
[/ QUOTE ] All of which begs the question.....why? I have enough skill not to need AoE KB to get the job done. While KB can be very useful in some situations there are many situations where having it attached to the power is a detriment.
Blue....your responses are crossing that line of asinine. It is not always possible to hover high enough to eliminate the knockBACK...it is not always possible to push the mobs into a wall. By stating that the power is situationally useful, I implicity acknowledge that it has uses. You on the other hand seem unwilling to concede that is the source problems in many instances. If you insist on acknowledging only facts which support your position and ignoring those that don't then I will ignore your posts from now on.
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The other night in Croa...I was teamed with a blaster who just wanted to start every batttle. She knew it wasn't smart, but she enjoyed the rush. My TA was much better at debuffing mobs in that situation because I could quickly FA them and PGA them after she opened with an AoE. If that had been Rad...it would have been much harder.
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Thats pretty funny, I was going to say one of the worst things about that situation is how long it takes a TA to apply their debuffs. In 2 seconds with Rad I have already slowed mob recharge to a crawl AND lowered most if not all of the damage of a mob by 30% ignoring the additional -res debuff. That mitigates a hell of alot of damage to the teammates in the start of a battle and gives me the time to either spot heal if needed or hit RI up on a problem mob that isn't going to be taken out immediately. To compare, in the two seconds I debuffed the mob the TA defender is still in his Flash Arrow animation having provided no mitigation at all to the team.
Honestly, TA is slow when it comes to debuffs if you are operating in a reactive capacity. If I am not starting fights with my TA then I am probably way behind the curve when it comes to mitigating damage. At the very least, I need to have Flash Arrow on the next mob BEFORE the other teammates attack or I am going to slower than any other defender at mitigating damage. The animation times are a real hindrance to both Arrow and Trick Arrow.
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In 2 seconds with Rad I have already slowed mob recharge to a crawl AND lowered most if not all of the damage of a mob by 30% ignoring the additional -res debuff
[/ QUOTE ] My post is not giving you the full details....
1) it was out doors.
2) it was six person team
3) She would aggro one group while the tank was off fighting someone else. I was staying with the tank.
My wording also probably needs a comma...I would FA ...then PGA after she fired on them. Because FA is anchorless....I could FA all the spawns in the immediate vicinity. Something you CANNOT do with RI. If I saw her looking in a given direction...I would immediately FA any spawns in her LOS. I would do this while already engaged in combat.
The team did not consistently stick close together. Anchor debuffing would have been of marginal value.
You know what kicked butt...Oil Slick, when we actually fought as a team. That power would dramatically stop the incoming damage. It kept the mobs in one place for PGA and DA to work...and as long as the Peacebringer didn't use that AoE knock back blast, it was extremely effective. And she loved the OS+Rain of Fire combo. She repeatedly kept asking me to lay it down.
As far as complaints about other defenders being better...Never heard a single one. Not one. The Energy blaster duo does prefer my Rad. We both have three slotted Hover and he just likes AM. My Rad is a better combo for the blaster, but it's not because fo the debuffing.
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It just takes skill to use KB in such a way that it sometimes benefits an AOE focused team, while it is extremely easy to use it in such a way as to completely cheese off your teammates.
[/ QUOTE ] Exactly. I have Shockwave on my Claws. I love the power...but I don't use it very often. Very situtional..but can be very useful. However, the fundamental difference between SW and EA is that SW is a LOT more reliable at knockback.
KB is generally much better for a soloer IME.
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It just takes skill to use KB in such a way that it sometimes benefits an AOE focused team, while it is extremely easy to use it in such a way as to completely cheese off your teammates.
[/ QUOTE ] Exactly. I have Shockwave on my Claws. I love the power...but I don't use it very often. Very situtional..but can be very useful. However, the fundamental difference between SW and EA is that SW is a LOT more reliable at knockback.
KB is generally much better for a soloer IME.
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I will agree with you on the count that EA is not a reliable form of knockback and thus not as useful as say Torrent or Shockwave for that particular situational benefit. However, it is one of my best sources of aoe damage as a /arrow defender, and thus I learn to make positive use of the incedental knockback as often as possible, while primarily using it as a damage power. Now if the situation would obviously be disrupted by any knockback created by EA, I will withold the power for that particular battle. To be honest, this is rarely the case. It is a rare occasion that I can't find some useful way to position EA so as not to disrupt my team. I don't know how much of this is mitigated by the fact that I am a storm defender, and knockback is something that is usually part of my overall battle strategy anyhow, and I have the placement tools necessary to put everything back where it needs to be if a disruption does occur.
What I'm saying is that EA is not a situational power. It is a damage power that you must use with a greater awareness of the battle, but not one that you should save for that special moment you need everyone OVER THERE NOW.
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However, it is one of my best sources of aoe damage as a /arrow defender,
[/ QUOTE ] Though I find the three slotted damage uninspiring...I have no criticism for someone who uses it for that aspect.
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Now if the situation would obviously be disrupted by any knockback created by EA, I will withold the power for that particular battle.
[/ QUOTE ] Right. And IMO, for my own specific build, I'd rather have a different power than having to make allowances for an unreliable knockback. What power? Acrobatics, Tactics, Entangle Arrow, Acid Arrow...etc etc. I rarely solo with my TA/A. I also try and make sure I team with high ouput damage dealers. I feel it is easier to find more AoE damage from teammates than it is from Arrow. To each his own.
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and I have the placement tools necessary to put everything back where it needs to be if a disruption does occur.
[/ QUOTE ] If I could as easily and reliably put people where I wanted them...I wouldn't sweat the knockback as much. As far as just manipulating their movements..I find my own mobility and aggro management can be more effective than the unreliable knockback of EA. I've tried it slotted up on Test.
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What I'm saying is that EA is not a situational power. It is a damage power that you must use with a greater awareness of the battle, but not one that you should save for that special moment you need everyone OVER THERE NOW.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, yes and no. You've already stated that there are times you won't use it. There is no time I won't use Blazing, Fistfull, or Snap Shot (endo notwithstanding).
And again, my response to EA is more about the value of its kb...not its dmg. Bone is trying to tell me it's some vitally important power to what TA/A is all about.
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TA, IMO, requires a higher level of understanding to maximize and to make it perform at comparable levels. Knowing when to use debuffs, guaging their need and appropriateness is a higher level skill that requires fundamental knowledge.
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It is not at all complicated to play Trick Arrow. You point, things around your target are debuffed (barring misses). Voila. Idiot proof. Knowing that using a debuff at the end of a fight so it won't be recharged for the next is not some kind of advanced theoretical science, it's an artificial limit caused by not adjusting recharge times after reducing the amount of enhancement can effect the powers.
Trick Arrow doesn't take any more "skill" to play than most Buff/Debuff sets, it just penalizes you more for no purpose.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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All of which begs the question.....why? I have enough skill not to need AoE KB to get the job done. While KB can be very useful in some situations there are many situations where having it attached to the power is a detriment.
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Mieux, I can defend a full team using just Sonic Blasts and Gale. That doesn't mean I want to or will. I have enough 'skill' to not use heals, debuffs, or buffs', so... why?
Because I'd rather defend WELL, and to defend well you need to use every power available. Ignoring a full category of damage mitigation because you don't 'need' it, and you've heard that it's bad, m'kay... just doesn't speak well of your willingness to deal with the set.
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It is not always possible to hover high enough to eliminate the knockBACK...it is not always possible to push the mobs into a wall.
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Actually, it always is possible to do one or the other. If there's a roof, there's a wall nearby. If there's no wall, chances are good you can get some altitude.
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Arc, do me a favor...show me the # of attacks someone has to be outside of RI for the 20% debuff to be as good as a partial 37% debuff.
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Assuming no other defense or tohit debuffs in play?
Against even con, nearly half (46%) of all attacks fired have to be outside of RI's area of effect for the cumulative effect of flash arrow to be equal to RI's, assuming flash arrow is 20% debuff and RI is 37%.
If you think that on average, flash arrow encompasses the entire spawn, you would have to think RI only encompasses half the spawn all the time, or some other combination of numbers and attacks total, for flash to equal RI in effectiveness in terms of its tohit debuffing effect only.
One related thing: FA requires a tohit roll, RI is autohit. For FA to get maximum coverage, it often has to be applied multiple times. Against higher level foes, both debuffs will degrade, but FA will have the additional penalty of hitting less targets, reducing its coverage (or increasing its cost to use, depending on how you want to look at it).
It is true that if you really want to, you can always get 100% coverage on the debuff eventually, because it doesn't draw aggro. But comparing those two mechanics is much trickier: I'm inclined to call that a draw and look at the debuff strength itself and the average coverage, not the maximal coverage under repeated casts.
It is also true that the radius of RI seems much reduced from the old days. Time was you could light up half a zone with it; now the radius is quite tight.
Also, if RI is stronger than 37% tohit debuff, which I think is very likely, then the percentage gets closer to 60% (having to be outside the RI AoE).
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I've been duoing a lot with my Rad and an EN blaster. On average, only a 1/3 of the mobs are in RI at any given point. His attacks tend to knock them all over the room. Gunners do not clump with the punchers. Sure...you can herd, but that takes time. On large teams...it takes coordination.
The other night in Croa...I was teamed with a blaster who just wanted to start every batttle. She knew it wasn't smart, but she enjoyed the rush. My TA was much better at debuffing mobs in that situation because I could quickly FA them and PGA them after she opened with an AoE. If that had been Rad...it would have been much harder. It was an out door mission and if not for FA, we would have aggro'd multiple groups frequently.
Bad PuG? Probably....but TA allowed me to keep it together with help from others..in a way that was easier than it would have been with Rad. The only advantage would have been the -perception to help control aggro, and I'm not sure I would weight that quite so heavily. I do it myself: spamming TA all around to prevent accidental aggro, but its hard to replace a heal.
Rad is better. TA is still great.
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This is one of the few acknowledged advantages of FA: -perception. You can hit an adjacent group with it to try to control inclusions. But that's a separate benefit: factoring in -perception, you'd have to factor in RI's simultaneous debuffs as well: FA+ PGA doesn't really take all that much more time than RI+EF, and that combo has a much stronger overall effect.
As to making a set generalization like TA was better than rad would have been in that situation, circa level 28-30 which I'm assuming you are, a rad would have likely had radiation emission, radiation infection, enervating field, lingering radiation, and accelerate metabolism. Maybe choking cloud. A rad could CC half the spawn, and debuff the other half, to mitigate the small area of effects of the debuffs, had a recovery/speed/damage buff on the blaster, and a pretty good heal. I can't imagine TA being "easier" in that situation than rad.
And of course, a rad has the ultimate PUG power: mutation. 
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If you fight things that disperse on aggro, like Thorn Casters...I'm going with FA.
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My test this morning? CoT possessed scientists, which are thorn casters in lab coats. RI draws aggro. They do not generally disperse away from it without some other factor initiating that response. They stayed nice and clumped.
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Why do I stick RI on the FF gen? Because radius issues aside, everywhere the gen goes...it's neutralized. It also makes it very easy to take the gen out quickly.
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Just to make sure, I tested this again. My initial suspicion seems to be correct: generators don't appear to buff each other or themselves (at least strongly). Generators are always the *first* to go in any wave of AoEs, because they get hit more often than the things they are protecting, and that appears to be by design. This is why I don't lock toggle debuffs on them. I'm not sure how your toggle debuffs are surviving on generators: then again, since you've also said your experience suggests toggle debuffs get lost frequently, maybe this is part of the reason.
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TA, IMO, requires a higher level of understanding to maximize and to make it perform at comparable levels. Knowing when to use debuffs, guaging their need and appropriateness is a higher level skill that requires fundamental knowledge.
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It is not at all complicated to play Trick Arrow. You point, things around your target are debuffed (barring misses). Voila. Idiot proof. Knowing that using a debuff at the end of a fight so it won't be recharged for the next is not some kind of advanced theoretical science, it's an artificial limit caused by not adjusting recharge times after reducing the amount of enhancement can effect the powers.
Trick Arrow doesn't take any more "skill" to play than most Buff/Debuff sets, it just penalizes you more for no purpose.
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Actually, I would have to disagree: TA takes a significantly higher level of skill both to integrate well into teams, and to get maximum effectiveness out of the set. I would be happy with that if TA rewarded that skill with higher effectiveness (relative to other sets) but instead it mandates that skill, penalizing those who don't have it (for that matter, it penalizes the TA defender when on a team that doesn't play well with TA: there is *no team* that I can't fit a rad or dark into).
This is not counting literal skill issues, like never queueing debuffs (long activation time + moving critters = debuff going off way over there), or things most people learn by rote that learn them at all (disruption arrow goes last, not first).
One way to reward skill with effectiveness would be to return debuffs to Location debuffs, possibly with game mechanical modifcations to make it easier to fire a Location AoE at a specific target. That way people can use the "training wheel" version of the debuffs as targetted debuffs, while advanced players can leverage them as Location Debuffs when they want to (getting a tactical but not overpowering advantage due to skill).
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Actually, it always is possible to do one or the other. If there's a roof, there's a wall nearby. If there's no wall, chances are good you can get some altitude.
[/ QUOTE ] Wrong. Getting immobilzed by TT's from a Death Mage prevents both. Quicksand...can prevent both....Caltrops can prevent both..etc...etc...
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Because I'd rather defend WELL, and to defend well you need to use every power available.
[/ QUOTE ] No. You don't need every power available. Defending well or doing anything requires you use the right tool for the job. AoE knockback may stop some damage for an instant...but it can cause more problems. Killing is most efficient in CoH when mobs are together. If you can't understand how AoE knockback is more often than not, anti-thetical to that purpose...then that would explain a lot.
Knockback can be a life saver. I use RF on my FF prolly ever single mission. I don't want it on my attack powers. If I need to defend...i'll use a defenseive power.
And the big issue is that reliance on KB in EA will set you up for failure.
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If you think that on average, flash arrow encompasses the entire spawn, you would have to think RI only encompasses half the spawn all the time, or some other combination of numbers and attacks total, for flash to equal RI in effectiveness in terms of its tohit debuffing effect only.
[/ QUOTE ] I'll do you one better...RI encompasses none of the spawn for some significant portion of the time. Tonight..it was Tuatha...+3 bosses disorienting me. Good thing I didn't have a toggle debuff. After that it was Vamps...putting me to sleep. RI doesn't work when you get mezzed. Granted...once you get it down...if you can keep the mobs contained, chances are they won't. But mezzing +2,+3 bosses can often hit through RI.
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This is one of the few acknowledged advantages of FA: -perception
[/ QUOTE ] I've found the -perception allows blasters to pull one or two mobs at time from a close group. It also allows a tank/scrapper/blaster to get in close and initiate their alphas before they draw aggro...something RI definitely cannot do.
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FA+ PGA doesn't really take all that much more time than RI+EF, and that combo has a much stronger overall effect.
[/ QUOTE ] It definitely takes more time in that I have already caste FA. I only have to caste PGA and I time that so that it's firing as soon as the tank/scrap makes their first attack. Assuming no lag, I can apply PGA before they counter attack and right after we attack. Edge definitely goes to getting TA...but in a tight spawn, with at team that respects anchors, EF+RI is undeniably better. Undeniably.
As i've stated, I think it's the -def that is the real advantage. I don't really know how much advantage EF/DA give. There's a lot wasted damage already. It'd be interesting to see what the average difference EF or DA made with regards to -res for a team over the course of a mission.
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My test this morning? CoT possessed scientists, which are thorn casters in lab coats.
[/ QUOTE ] When I've fought PS in one of those AV missions...I don't recall them doing the Thorn Caster thing. Whether they do or not...Thorn Casters will retreat and fire from Range...one or two might melee, the other four or five will fire blast/lightning/gale/Tremor (?) you from range. Anchor debuffs are very much marginalized. They still work on the LT's...provided you don't get chained disoriented from +2 DM's Dark Pitting you all day. Sorry...CoT are generally not good mobs for anchor debuffing. Groups of Guides or Thorn Wielders are different. But Spectrals and TC's are bad for anchors.
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Just to make sure, I tested this again. My initial suspicion seems to be correct: generators don't appear to buff each other or themselves (at least strongly).
[/ QUOTE ] I can guarantee you they protect themselves. They are just usually a level lower than their engineers.
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Generators are always the *first* to go in any wave of AoEs
[/ QUOTE ] I never see generators get taken down by waves of AoE. Generators avoid a considerable amount of the AoE because they are away from the throng. Unless the Engineer is always targeted, the gen can avoid many AoE's due to range or just straight +DEF.
I've noticed this: People will attack the mobs first...if they continue to hit the mobs...they ignore the gens. RI allows them to continue to hit the mobs. When people start missing the mobs...they turn to the gens. Some people attack the gens religiously.
When I team and put RI on the gens...the gens are the last to go...because people are easily destracted when they can hit the mobs. If I put RI on something else...it invariably gets killed before the gens.
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then again, since you've also said your experience suggests toggle debuffs get lost frequently
[/ QUOTE ] Well, they don't get "lost" they just don't debuff ALL the mobs but rarely. Trolls were generally good to anchors. BP are great for anchors. Crey aren't bad either. Raiders...not so much.
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TA, IMO, requires a higher level of understanding to maximize and to make it perform at comparable levels. Knowing when to use debuffs, guaging their need and appropriateness is a higher level skill that requires fundamental knowledge.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is not at all complicated to play Trick Arrow. You point, things around your target are debuffed (barring misses). Voila. Idiot proof. Knowing that using a debuff at the end of a fight so it won't be recharged for the next is not some kind of advanced theoretical science, it's an artificial limit caused by not adjusting recharge times after reducing the amount of enhancement can effect the powers.
Trick Arrow doesn't take any more "skill" to play than most Buff/Debuff sets, it just penalizes you more for no purpose.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I would have to disagree: TA takes a significantly higher level of skill both to integrate well into teams, and to get maximum effectiveness out of the set. I would be happy with that if TA rewarded that skill with higher effectiveness (relative to other sets) but instead it mandates that skill, penalizing those who don't have it (for that matter, it penalizes the TA defender when on a team that doesn't play well with TA: there is *no team* that I can't fit a rad or dark into).
This is not counting literal skill issues, like never queueing debuffs (long activation time + moving critters = debuff going off way over there), or things most people learn by rote that learn them at all (disruption arrow goes last, not first).
One way to reward skill with effectiveness would be to return debuffs to Location debuffs, possibly with game mechanical modifcations to make it easier to fire a Location AoE at a specific target. That way people can use the "training wheel" version of the debuffs as targetted debuffs, while advanced players can leverage them as Location Debuffs when they want to (getting a tactical but not overpowering advantage due to skill).
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I really just don't see it. It's the easiest set to apply debuffs with, all the debuffs are like blasts, pick a target and bam, debuffed. Picking a target that doesn't wander around requires someone to not be braindead. A Team can mostly just ignore the way a TA Defender plays and just pretend he's a Fire or Assault Rifle Blaster with less damage for all the difference they'll see. It'd take even less of what little skill is required (except probably in PvP) if the debuffs were all ground targetted.
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Mieux, I wasn't saying that you NEED Exploding Arrow, I was saying that if you think knockback is worthless, which you seemed to, you don't know what you are talking about.
And why do you keep acting like FA does ANYTHING but -perception? If you are fighting anything +1 or higher, the -acc debuff is almost completely unnoticable. How can you possibly act like you are doing anything remotely like Rad, Storm, or Dark defenders acc debuff? Between the to-hit roll and the paultry base acc debuff on FA the power is a joke if you are fighting anything above even level. At even level it's still just an amusing anecdote.
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Running an [censored] Eden trial at [censored].
Oh...
Alright, Flash Arrow is equal to Smoke Grenade, maybe a whole 2.5% better. It's still a lot of your damage mitigation, a good 40% of it, so take this power and slot it. Doesn't stack, but it misses often enough that you'll want to fire it pretty often.
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Didn't _castle_ it's exactly the same as fire controller smoke? Ignoreing the fact that it has almost twice the activication time.
Activation time is a real bottleneck for anyone using slow working trick arrows. If you are using all those helpful arrows where is the time to blast. I have a hard enough time finding time to reposition myself with all the activation times on my /trick arrow MM.
And if it was my primary.. wow.. it would feel weird not taking haste with 3 recharge in it. I get a lot from that recharge for some powers like glue pretty bad in a hotspot with it as my secondary. If it was my main job I'd label it as necessary I'd think.
Also some powers could benefit a lot from direct comparisons.. like web grenade vs the trick arrow immoblise. Almost the same except there is no -recharge in the trick arrow defender immoblise. TA immoblise 2.17 activation time it says. Web grenade? 1.37. (2.17 isn't a bad activation time for the trick arrow set though)
Really.. it doesn't seem like a bad set in the powers it's just a few powers that are obviously overshadowed, activation times, and recharges that need a look at it seems to me.
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Plenty of time to blast. TA/A defender here, and I'm always blasting dispite using all my arrows. Actualy it's all I have left while waiting for stuff to recharge.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I'll do you one better...RI encompasses none of the spawn for some significant portion of the time. Tonight..it was Tuatha...+3 bosses disorienting me. Good thing I didn't have a toggle debuff. After that it was Vamps...putting me to sleep. RI doesn't work when you get mezzed. Granted...once you get it down...if you can keep the mobs contained, chances are they won't. But mezzing +2,+3 bosses can often hit through RI.
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That's true, but they also basically ignore flash arrow. Unless you three-slot FA with accuracy, you would have been missing those +3 bosses with FA a significant amount of time (net tohit on +3 bosses with two-slot acc and no tohit buffs or defense is about 80%, and bosses often have defense), and your 20% debuff would have been reduced to 13%, against something that had a base 82% chance of hitting you. And they would have been sticking for a shorter period of time: there's no guarantee now that you would have had continuous coverage even with hasten. Meanwhile a rad defender slapping as much as 60% tohit debuff down on those bosses (if TopDoc's numbers are correct, and I'm prepared to take his numbers at face value without strong contradicting information to the contrary) would have an autohitting 39% tohit debuff net.
A rad would have also had AM running, which means the rad would be bouncing out of mez faster. And lingering radiation, which is probably the strongest high level boss-killing debuff you can buy, and isn't a toggle.
Good thing you had trick arrow, though.
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When I've fought PS in one of those AV missions...I don't recall them doing the Thorn Caster thing. Whether they do or not...Thorn Casters will retreat and fire from Range...one or two might melee, the other four or five will fire blast/lightning/gale/Tremor (?) you from range. Anchor debuffs are very much marginalized. They still work on the LT's...provided you don't get chained disoriented from +2 DM's Dark Pitting you all day. Sorry...CoT are generally not good mobs for anchor debuffing. Groups of Guides or Thorn Wielders are different. But Spectrals and TC's are bad for anchors.
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When not under the influence of radiation toggle debuffs, possessed scientists scatter just like regular thorns: tested with my SR scrapper.
This is because possessed scientists are, to the best of my knowledge, just thorns with lab coats. I believe they will behave in all respects exactly like thorns, because they are thorns.
You should keep in mind when saying things like "Sorry...CoT are generally not good mobs for anchor debuffing" that I have a tendancy to test things out before making statements like "this will definitely work," beyond the fact that I'm stating what I do in fact do, and not what I think I might do. Four of the five PSs I herded up yesterday were the gale variety, and they made no attempt to back up: they just kept pushing me either around, or up, from close range. In fact, whenever gale connected, they nearly always ran towards me.
Toggle debuffs draw aggro: its actually one of the deficits of toggle debuffs relative to things like flash arrow, which can be used without drawing aggro. But that deficit can be used to effect with some skill. Its actually possible for a good rad to maneuver and reposition their anchor to a degree during a fight because of that aggro, if there are line of sight breaks in the mission and no one actually shoots at it.
When I say it takes more skill to use TA effectively than rad, thats not because I button-mash rad and do good, and fling arrows all over the place with TA, and do bad. Its because I've squeezed the life out of both sets to near what I think their limits are, and judging from the standard of how much bang for buck you get at different levels of skill. Rad, in fact, rewards skill more than TA, if you have the skill, which can be quite high relative to toggle, toggle, heal, heal, heal. TA requires a much higher initial skill to get good effectiveness out of it, and then plateaus; beyond a certain point no amount of skill grants any more benefit. Sets like rad have higher ceilings.
Generally, when I say TA requires more skill than rad, what I mean is more precisely "Rad requires less skill than TA to replicate the overall effectiveness of TA, for any given (skill level of a) trick archer." Beyond that, its also true that "and then, if you have the skill, you can push rad significantly farther than TA, equalling or exceeding its boundaries in almost every area."
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And why do you keep acting like FA does ANYTHING but -perception? If you are fighting anything +1 or higher, the -acc debuff is almost completely unnoticable
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It IS unnoticable...I've 3 slotted the thing with debuff SOs, and it's the worst 5 slots I've ever chosen (2 ACC). I've stopped using it in fights becasue it just wastes time. The only time I ever bring it out is when I don't want extra aggro from another group.
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I really just don't see it. It's the easiest set to apply debuffs with, all the debuffs are like blasts, pick a target and bam, debuffed. Picking a target that doesn't wander around requires someone to not be braindead. A Team can mostly just ignore the way a TA Defender plays and just pretend he's a Fire or Assault Rifle Blaster with less damage for all the difference they'll see. It'd take even less of what little skill is required (except probably in PvP) if the debuffs were all ground targetted.
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If that's the way you play trick arrow, I don't see how playing rad would be any harder. Lock onto a target and turn the debuff on, lock onto a target and throw lingering radiation. Whatever happens happens, except you can also periodically spam healing auras around, if you want.
But trick arrow is less forgiving of mistakes. If you fire a debuff arrow at the wrong target, and the AoE isn't optimal, you can't reset it. You can reset rad toggles. If the *team* makes an error, and say attacks a group before you've deployed your full set of debuffs, you don't have a heal to pull them back from a bad situation. You yourself can be the target of a lot of aggro depending on how the team deals with debuffed targets, another area that TA is less forgiving than rad.
Does every trick archer know where the best place to fire glue arrow is? Or that disruption arrow should always be fired last? Or not to queue debuff arrows? Can they all deal with missions with villains like pumice, or warwolves? Its hard to say; I've seen maybe five trick archers in the last few *months* so its hard to tell what the average skill level is. What I've seen is unlikely to be statistically accurate, unless haha I've seen them all. But a couple seem to be more selective, and the rest tended to fire almost indiscriminately.
As to Location AoEs requiring less skill; I think you and I must be using a completely different definition of skill. Even with appropriate binds, which not everyone uses, Location AoEs require more skill because its much easier to throw an arrow to the wrong spot. If you think Location AoEs require less skill, you must be thinking the level of skill required to pick and click on a spot both from a judgement perspective and a mechanical skill perspective is essentially zero, and the only issue with Location AoEs is that they allow you to pick potentially better spots than targetted AoEs. That completely dismisses the issue of skill: Location AoEs can be more flexible, but to say they require no skill to use suggests the base skill level you are judging from is extremely high.
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Unless you three-slot FA with accuracy, you would have been missing those +3 bosses with FA a significant amount of time
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah...I miss +3 bosses more than +0 minions. Then I just say..."Wait." Fire it again...and it generally hits. I've also had Tactics since 24. This coincided with my getting SO's and turning my diff up to Invinc. Since I don't run toggles, I don't need Stamina.
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and your 20% debuff would have been reduced to 13%***Meanwhile a rad defender slapping as much as 60% tohit debuff down on those bosses
[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure which numbers are which...but the diff between FA and RI is not 20% vs 60%. If +3 bosses resist the -acc debuff from FA...then they resist it from RI as well. What makes RI so much better for +3 bosses...if you don't get mezzed....is the -DEF. I don't have Acid Arrow yet. I can't wait.
From using DN and RI..both 3 slotted with To Hit Debuffs...I don't feel that RI is better. What happens is that -DEF causes the +2,3 mobs to get killed soooo much faster, you are exposed to less attacks compared to DN. The thing that allowed /Inv scrappers to kill +5 mobs was not the +DEF from Invinc...it was the +Acc. With Focused Accuracy, I can consistently kill small groups of +5's (but not bosses) without inspirations. If you fight on Heroic...it's not worth much..but when all your defenders are on Invinc...you notice how much -DEF contributes.
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You should keep in mind when saying things like "Sorry...CoT are generally not good mobs for anchor debuffing" that I have a tendancy to test things out before making statements like "this will definitely work,"
[/ QUOTE ] You're testing it out as a solo toon. On teams...your teammates are spread out. The TC's will take positions relative to teammates...not relative to you or your anchor. I have like 4 or 5 toons who are currently in the Cadao Kestral story arc. I've been fighting a LOT of TC's lately.
Last night, my lvl 39 Kin teamed with same level Rad. When I wasn't around, he frequently got mezzed, ran out of endurance, and had his health bounce up and down from the aggro. At one point...we were in an intersection with a low level building. We had mobs on all sides. RI/EF might have been debuffing 1/10 of the mobs from what I could see. His CC was drawing massive aggro, and if it were not for his Emp followed by my Psychic Wail...post Fulcrum Shift...we might have had a team wipe.
We were also grouped with a Peacebringer....Gleaming Blast and Solar Flare anyone? Not too friendly to anchors.
The Rad and I had to work our butts off to keep the SK'd DM/Regen and PB out of debt (or maybe it was just me). Fortunately there were only four of us and RI and EF probably gave us 70-80% coverage most of the time....because I made to sure to have ID on him and use 'ference when he got low. But when things got hairy he was forced to use EMP because he could not provide enough protection from CC, RI, and EF alone. EMP is veeeeeery nice.
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But that deficit can be used to effect with some skill.
[/ QUOTE ] Yup...it can be a very good way to pull mobs and avoid the beta attack when they all round the corner.
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Its actually possible for a good rad to maneuver and reposition their anchor to a degree during a fight because of that aggro, if there are line of sight breaks in the mission and no one actually shoots at it.
[/ QUOTE ] Big IFs. Trigger-happy Controllers are usually the ones that can undermine that. It was worse before I4 or whatever. I've actually picked up TP Foe as an option for moving anchors in open areas. It's eaiser to TP the RI anchor to the group than try and straight line pull him in outdoor maps. TPF has such a long recharge tho.
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A rad would have also had AM running
[/ QUOTE ] A Rad might have AM running. Every scenario I describe, you say the Rad would have AM runing. AM is not perma (though I haven't tried it with Hasten and SO's). When fighting +2,+3's...I use it whenever it's recharged to keep up endurance, locomotion, and speed up the recharge of people's slow recharge powers. By getting a higher level of average benefit, I sacrifice always having it ready for the "one" specific fight were it's needed most. And on large teams set to Invinc...there is often more than one +3 boss. With Crey..there may be two PP's in back to back spawns.
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I was saying that if you think knockback is worthless
[/ QUOTE ] Then let's look at what I've already said...
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Knockback can be a life saver. I use RF on my FF prolly ever single mission.
[/ QUOTE ] RF= Repulsion Field...all radial knockback.
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If you are fighting anything +1 or higher, the -acc debuff is almost completely unnoticable.
[/ QUOTE ] Whether you notice it or not...it's mitigating damage. Far more damage than say Ice or Entangle arrow when you team. If your criteria for a useful power is that you have to "notice" it, then we are on different wavelengths.
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At even level it's still just an amusing anecdote.
[/ QUOTE ] It's doing more than DN and RI when they aren't on a mob for an entire fight. And more to the point...I'm playing Trick Arrow. I'm not playing Rad or Dark. I don't have the option of choosing RI or DN....so I fail to see what your point is. FA mitigates damage.
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Mieux's happy dance on that link was premature.
[/ QUOTE ] Actually, it wasn't a happy dance. I actually believed Blue's post was the accurate one, especially considered it's dated later than the one I linked. I offered my link to show that I was not "pulling numbers out of my [censored]" as Blue's asinine response suggested.
I also stated specifically that the difference between FA and DN felt like more than 6% based on my use of the wrong AT modifer and the wrong value originally provided by Castle. So despite my math telling me one thing....I explicitly acknowledged that it did not conform to my observations.