[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you missed the giant expanding fireball when it explodes?
[/ QUOTE ] I skipped this power. I generally hate AoE knockback. Especially AoE knockback with radial vectors. I've teamed with all of one E-Arrow using toon. I do recall fire graphics...I also recall wanting to choke the guy for using that attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's all about placement. Best way to use it is not a target in the center of the group's circle, but one in the center and along the front edge. I find it to be a great attack, aside from seeminly lacking damage.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
My TA is 27, I've a bunch of other toons that are much higher. More importantly, I have a strong fundamental understsanding of the game, the AI, the powers in other sets and AT's. Being able to tell that Emp/Rad to use Irradiate so as not to have to target Oil Slick makes a difference. Before that, I had her target me to set it off because in large groups she couldn't find it. This makes a difference. Using Entangle A to keep Hurricane using Shaman and Sorcs from advancing on you or your team....makes a difference. Rad can't do that. Kinetics can't do that. Ice Arrow (which should be renamed to Cryo Arrow) can turn off Hurricane and CoT Midgnight Chill debuff powers. Rad, Kin, FF, and Sonic can't do that (well, Kin can drain endo with Transference). TA has lots of tools. The trick (no pun intended) is knowing where and when to use them.
[/ QUOTE ]
But you haven't played a TA pre-ED with SO's? You didn't play a TA on test with the old timers? You can make do with what you have now, but you haven't seen the set when it preformed better. I have.
Also, FF and Sonic both have those bubbles they can phase shift the mob with, so take them off your list. Also Defender secondaries like Elec have holds (tesla cage) that can do exactly the same job as Ice Arrow available to all defender sets. So the uniqueness of Ice Arrow isn't really all that... unique.
[ QUOTE ]
In one of my first replies to someone's TA question, I said that I would not recommend TA as your first or second defender. I also would not recommend TA as your first or second toon. Slotting is a thing a lot of people don't understand. Though TA's slotting is comparatively simple and straight forward, if you don't know slotting, you might not know that. You might waste slots on things like extra accuracy for Flash Arrow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, would you tell people not to play any defender set then? Because if you are saying that to noobs about TA then there is a good chance that we might be right about it needing some work. Not a total overhaul, but some tweaking. And extra acc in Flash Arrow is not a bad thing. It's inaccurate as hell. I have 4 slots in there currently and 3 of them are Acc/debuff HO's and I miss at least 1/5 of every mob now in large spawns.
[ QUOTE ]
First off, there have been many allegations that recharge times for various powers didn't take into account ED. My understanding from various dev posts is that this is not true on a general level. Recharge times were set with ED in mind, and more importantly, as I talked about previously, they were set with the max recharge buff in mind: Speed Boost + Acc Met + Hasten +Adre Boost + Six SO's. I can't say for certainty that some mistake wasn't made with some specific power in TA or otherwise, but on a general note, I think you are operating under false assumptions.
[/ QUOTE ]
So wait, you are saying that they set the recharge times with AM, SB, etc in mind? That doesn't make much sense IMHO. The recharge times are optimal only with a team of like 5+ defenders? What if you have 7 kin defenders on one team? You could probably perma-Unstoppable with that (oh how I miss thee perma-Unstoppable). Why isn't that balanced for worst case scenario? Or any highly effective click power with a long recharge? I doubt they took into account team make up when they set the recharge timers. And my memory of how the test server changes and then ED went down I highly doubt that they were thinking of ED when they changed the timers on the inital test version of TA. Because that's when all the big changes went into effect. We are talking around when they said they first starting testing ED internally. Makes more sense that they made the changes on test before it went live without ED being a factor in their decision.
[ QUOTE ]
Second, I play Trick Arrow. I've seen the avialability of my powers. It seems fine. Not only does it seem fine, I don't use Hasten but maybe 30% of the mission. I've frequently used Oil Slick back to back spawns at lvl 26.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen them on test pre-ED and live pre-ED and I can tell you that they were NOT overpowers on live by any streach of the imagination. They may seem fine to you but I can tell you from experience that with Perma Hasten and 6 slotted recharge they were more useful mid-fight if something went wrong like an ambush or accidenal aggro of another mob. Something that is plainly out of our reach today.
[ QUOTE ]
The fact is, most teams don't sprint through missions. Someone is always pausing for one of fifty reasons. Maybe one spawn out of fifteen, we'll start the fight and PGA won't be immediately ready. Even when I do small teams and we blast through the mission, literally without pausing, I don't need to use every debuff every fight. I'm not going to use DA on three +1 or +2 minions when one of my teammates is a blaster. It's just a waste. In that situation, by the time my Rad got EF and RI down, one if not two of the minions would already be dead. And PGA recharges fast enough, I can use it every fight and multiple times in a fight. With Hasten, and +++ SO's, PGA is basically perma for things like AV fights (though obviously an anchor debuff is better for single targets).
[/ QUOTE ]
Relying on groups to pause to be effective is a bad. It should not be necessary. As to the readiness of PGA, that's one of the few powers that most people don't think has much of a problem at all recharge-wise. As to the need to use debuffs every fight, that's true of every defender set's powers in that situaiton and doesn't speak to TA specifically at all.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be willing to argue my perspective is much broader than yours. Rather than bemoaning what I can't do and acting like everyone else can do what I can...I recognize what I can do that others can't. I've played the other sets. I've teamed with the other sets. If you want to feel worthless in a fight, go fight a Monster with FF. Unless you can find a corner to FB him into...you are going to annoy others if you push it into other mobs or out of location AoE's. Bubbles are very helpful, but you get very little direct feedback from their effectiveness. Players certaintly don't tell you.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd bet you would argue that. Even though I've seen TA on test before it went live, and I have seen it in the upper levels pre-ED and I have a high level TA/A right now. I know what I can do. I know that I can do some amazing things that make other defenders jealous at times. I'm certainly not worthless in any fight. But that doesn't mean the set doesn't need ANY work. There are certain situations where I shine. But others were I am sorely lacking. And I KNOW what it has been in the past. So go ahead and argue that you have a broader understanding of TA.
[ QUOTE ]
Show me a set that someone doesn't think needs work? Maybe you can...maybe there's one or two...maybe, but I doubt it. Like I2 /Regen, TA is not very good at low level. Because the recharge timers are balanced for at least three SO's each, TA feels really really weak at low level. I have stated that many many times. At level 27, I feel that I always have a "trick" up my sleeve and I honestly feel like I am more effective than anything but a D/D or a very well played and slotted Rad. Though, as I said before, given the right cirumstances, Storms can render mobs completely harmless.
[/ QUOTE ]
Go ahead and feel that way, but trust me when I say I know what it feels like to have TA/A be even more effective than you. Pre-ED things were quite different.
[ QUOTE ]
It's your perrogative to pursue that agenda. In the meantime, I will continue to tell people who ask about TA/A that it's a great set if you have skill...once you get past the teens.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny, that's pretty much what I tell people. But I also warn them that Flash arrow doesn't really debuff accuracy at all. That one ALWAYS gets people.
[ QUOTE ]
But you haven't played a TA pre-ED with SO's?
[/ QUOTE ] You bring this point up several times throughout your reply. I guess I fail to see how it's relevant? We are talking about how TA compares to other sets now Dark..pre-ED was awesome. Way way way...overpowered for pure defending, IMO. One some levels that can be a plus...but the reality is that it ended up being a minus, IMO, because they trivialized fights for teams.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, FF and Sonic both have those bubbles they can phase shift the mob with, so take them off your list.
[/ QUOTE ] Actually you don't. Those bubbles make the mobs phase out. Which means you can't attack them either. Holding a mob turns off its debuff AND you can attack them. I use DF quite a bit with my FF. Even when I DF right at the start...often the team has to wait a bit for the DF to drop. In the mean time, the mob avoids any debuffs or damage they might have received. DF and Sonic Cage are not the same as Holds. Sometimes they are way way better...sometimes they cause unnecessary delay.
[ QUOTE ]
Also Defender secondaries like Elec have holds (tesla cage)
[/ QUOTE ] That's irrelevant. Knockout Blow has a hold, so does that diminish the value of PG for Dark? No. We are talking about Defender primaries. What secondaries, or power pools, or other AT's can or can't do is irrelevent to whether the primaries are balanced against one another unless you are going to bring up asymmetric synergies....which you haven't.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, would you tell people not to play any defender set then?
[/ QUOTE ] No. Dark and Rad are so good, that even played marginally, they are decent. The core value of FF is pretty straight forward and even noobs can grok bubbles. TA, IMO, requires a higher level of understanding to maximize and to make it perform at comparable levels. Knowing when to use debuffs, guaging their need and appropriateness is a higher level skill that requires fundamental knowledge. Remember that Atta misison? No point in using Glue Arrow against mobs that are -1 if you have a +2 blaster. Especially when you know that +2's might be over the crest. Undertstanding your own teams weaknesses and powers let's me tell the blaster to save the AoE until after they see the DA graphic or to use the AoE to light my Oil Slick.
[ QUOTE ]
It's inaccurate as hell.
[/ QUOTE ] Missing 1-2 mobs in a group of 10-12 is not an issue in my opinion. True...there have been those rare circumstances where it misses like four out of five...but dont' see it as a general problem with one Acc. Plus...I got Tactics at 24.
[ QUOTE ]
You could probably perma-Unstoppable with that (oh how I miss thee perma-Unstoppable). Why isn't that balanced for worst case scenario? Or any highly effective click power with a long recharge? I doubt they took into account team make up when they set the recharge timers.
[/ QUOTE ] My understanding is that they did. Maybe Arcana or Kali can tell us what it takes to get Perma-Elude under ED.
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen them on test pre-ED and live pre-ED and I can tell you that they were NOT overpowers on live by any streach
[/ QUOTE ] And I'm not here to say that you're wrong...but I am here to tell you that the devs didn't agree. Obviously they saw something that they felt was too good. Whether they went to far or not far enough is a subjective call...not an objective one as some on here attempt to claim.
[ QUOTE ]
Relying on groups to pause to be effective is a bad.
[/ QUOTE ] From a design perspective, i agree. I am not here to say that TA was perfectly designed. In fact I've implicitly argued the opposite. I am here to say that if you are skilled, TA is a great set or to put it in more palatable terms for the carebears...TA can be a great set..
[ QUOTE ]
But that doesn't mean the set doesn't need ANY work.
[/ QUOTE ] You'll have to point to a quote of mine where I say the set shouldn't receive any work.
[ QUOTE ]
but trust me when I say I know what it feels like to have TA/A be even more effective than you.
[/ QUOTE ] I played TA on Test when it was first there. I didn't like it much. I kind of thought it sucked. The activation time felt punitive and with TO's (which are arguebly not worth even slotting) the set seemed slow and ineffective. But I had already reserved an arrow name and if it wasn't for some young arrivals to my SG...my TA might still be lvl 10.
[ QUOTE ]
But I also warn them that Flash arrow doesn't really debuff accuracy at all
[/ QUOTE ] Castle said that FA and SG are the same base value *AT modifier. SG is thougth to be 10%. That puts FA at 12.5%. With three SO's. FA is just under 25% debuff. That's a stick debuff...that goes where they go. Think about the math. How many attacks does something need to be out of RI, a 30% debuff, before a permernant 25% debuff is better? (let's ignore the added defense debuff for the sake of argument).
EDIT:
My AT modifier is off. It should be .125, not .25. So that's 11.25%...and around 20% debuff. That feels more like what it actually is.
[ QUOTE ]
Castle said that FA and SG are the same base value *AT modifier. SG is thougth to be 10%. That puts FA at 12.5%. With three SO's. FA is just under 25% debuff. That's a stick debuff...that goes where they go. Think about the math. How many attacks does something need to be out of RI, a 30% debuff, before a permernant 25% debuff is better? (let's ignore the added defense debuff for the sake of argument).
[/ QUOTE ]
You were doing better when you just explained how you thought the set was effective.
If you are going to ignore the defense debuff of RI why not at least slot it equally to Flash Arrow. Stick 3 to-hit debuff SOs into it and see how it stacks up then. I think flooring mob accuracy is a slight bit better than having a sticky debuff that only makes minions miss half the time AFTER you get SOs and slot three of them in the same power. Call me crazy.
[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to ignore the defense debuff of RI why not at least slot it equally to Flash Arrow
[/ QUOTE ] Castle explicity stated that DN three slotted was a 30% acc debuff. Are you saying RI is higher than DN?
Actually, he said Darkest Night was equal to 37%. While RI might be under DN, don't pull numbers out your [censored] unless you estimate on the end which least fits your concept.
I also believe that your tohit debuff values for Flash Arrow are off. Goofy's shown numbers suggesting some significantly lower than yours, which may be due to miscommunication.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, he said Darkest Night was equal to 37%. While RI might be under DN, don't pull numbers out your [censored] unless you estimate on the end which least fits your concept.
I also believe that your tohit debuff values for Flash Arrow are off. Goofy's shown numbers suggesting some significantly lower than yours, which may be due to miscommunication.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that would conflict with this then wouldn't it:
[ QUOTE ]
A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.
[/ QUOTE ] Bite my shiny metal [censored].
Link
And I don't "know" the values for FA.
I will also state on the record that the diff between FA and DN/RI does feel like more than 6%...but that is more of a subjective call.
[ QUOTE ]
Standard grenades in the military do their damage from concussion and shrapnel...most of the damage is from shrapnel. The fire damage is incidental if there is any. There are incindiary grenades which are intended light things on fire. Whether Exploding Arrow is one or the other is arbitrary...but the idea that it would be all smash/lethal is totally plausible even if it is not convenient.
[/ QUOTE ]
None of which reflect the actual effect you see when you fire the thing off. It's a great big fireball. Looks great but, come on, throw us a bone here...
Look, I'm not one to second guess dev's much myself. I've been one on a smaller scale. I've made a semi-popular Half-Life mod and know what it's like to hear forum bashing non-stop. I am quite sympathetic to the dev's in that respect. While I do miss the pre-ED days, I totally understand ED from a developer point of view even though it's kind of a cop out. No need to lecture anybody on second guessing the developers.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you missed the giant expanding fireball when it explodes?
[/ QUOTE ] I skipped this power. I generally hate AoE knockback. Especially AoE knockback with radial vectors. I've teamed with all of one E-Arrow using toon. I do recall fire graphics...I also recall wanting to choke the guy for using that attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please never speak on TA/A again. I'm sorry, but this TOTALLY invalidates every arguement you have had on this subject completely.
Whatever the supposed numbers on accuracy debuffs are, the acual effect is that Rad, Storm, and Dark can all have quite noticable accuracy debuffs when fighting +3's. The same can not be said for TA which is the 'debuffing' (to the exclusion of all other effects) set.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you missed the giant expanding fireball when it explodes?
[/ QUOTE ] I skipped this power. I generally hate AoE knockback. Especially AoE knockback with radial vectors. I've teamed with all of one E-Arrow using toon. I do recall fire graphics...I also recall wanting to choke the guy for using that attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please never speak on TA/A again. I'm sorry, but this TOTALLY invalidates every arguement you have had on this subject completely.
[/ QUOTE ]Right...because Exploding Arrow is part of Trick Arrow isn't it?
The entire discussion has been on Trick Arrow...not Arrow Bone_Head. And AoE knockback is one of the most disruptive powers to teams in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you missed the giant expanding fireball when it explodes?
[/ QUOTE ] I skipped this power. I generally hate AoE knockback. Especially AoE knockback with radial vectors. I've teamed with all of one E-Arrow using toon. I do recall fire graphics...I also recall wanting to choke the guy for using that attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please never speak on TA/A again. I'm sorry, but this TOTALLY invalidates every arguement you have had on this subject completely.
[/ QUOTE ]Right...because Exploding Arrow is part of Trick Arrow isn't it?
The entire discussion has been on Trick Arrow...not Arrow Bone_Head. And AoE knockback is one of the most disruptive powers to teams in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the one thing you reply too?
Yeah, the whole thread has been about TA but there's also plenty of discussion about TA/A as well. If you don't know how to use Exploding Arrow in synergy with Trick Arrow, then yeah, I think you really are showing how little you know about TA. The knockback is PERFECT to get mobs who are comming after you and stepping out of Oil Slick range back on to it. You don't hit the guy in the middle of the mob, you hit the lead guy closest to you. Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled player.
[ QUOTE ]
Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled
[/ QUOTE ] I have enough skill not to need knockback in the first place.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled
[/ QUOTE ] I have enough skill not to need knockback in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now behave. Force Bolt (for example) is one hell of a useful and effective power used properly. Knockback doesn't *have* to be used to spread mobs out! Force Bolt bounce shots to drop strays into debuff fields was always a Starshield specialty.
It just takes skill to use KB in such a way that it sometimes benefits an AOE focused team, while it is extremely easy to use it in such a way as to completely cheese off your teammates.
[ QUOTE ]
Castle said that FA and SG are the same base value *AT modifier. SG is thougth to be 10%. That puts FA at 12.5%. With three SO's. FA is just under 25% debuff. That's a stick debuff...that goes where they go. Think about the math. How many attacks does something need to be out of RI, a 30% debuff, before a permernant 25% debuff is better? (let's ignore the added defense debuff for the sake of argument).
EDIT:
My AT modifier is off. It should be .125, not .25. So that's 11.25%...and around 20% debuff. That feels more like what it actually is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really am genuinely wondering how much you've played rad; that's not a deliberate knock. Radiation infection is so much more powerful than flash arrow that there is absolutely no comparison.
Just to make sure nothing has radically changed recently, I'm logged into the test server right now. I have radiation infection locked onto some level 50 possessed scientists. First of all, if they aren't floored, they are close. Granted, my slotting is +100% tohit debuff, so its a tiny bit more than someone else could do slotting three SOs (2 SOs and 2 HOs), but not much more (+95% with 3).
Second, RI draws aggro. No one is attempting to leave the area of effect. In fact, I can use that property to herd two groups together.
... Like so. I now have two spawns inside of RI, and none are attempting to flee it. Five scientists playing swing-at-the-rad.
And this would be a controller.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Knockback is a VERY effective tool if used by a skilled
[/ QUOTE ] I have enough skill not to need knockback in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't make me hurt you.
PS: Start flashing targets and stand inside of them and see how long your trick archer can tank them. I now have five possessed scientists (level 50) inside of RI, and they've been swinging at me for oh, ten minutes now. One of them actually got lucky and hit me with gale and pushed me completely away from the group. What did the group of five do? Yep, rushed me all together, keeping all of them still inside the RI radius.
My SR scrapper can't do this with just the SR defenses and no elude, by the way.
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*yay, post deleted by blue*
[ QUOTE ]
You said that you measured Radiation Infection (Defender) to be roughly equal to 31.25%. Was that including SOs? It seems extreme for Rad to be that much better than Dark Miasma, given that tohit debuff is Dark's home turf.
Also, have you had a chance to measure the tohit debuff from Hurricane?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure where that number comes from, but I can tell you that slotted to +100% tohit buff, it looks an awful lot like about -40% tohit or better with a controller. I may have to do more detailed measurements of RI to get an exact number, but I'm outdoors and I don't want to force myself to stay logged in all day in a well travelled spot to continue this little test.
Take this as an impression, not a scientific measurement: RI heavily slotted feels like perma-elude against even level minions.
In terms of it being stronger than DM's debuffs, it is a smaller radius (smaller now than in the past, too), and so takes more skill to use effectively.
I don't have direct hurricane measurements, but I don't think hurricane debuffs stronger than RI.
Before I log out of this, amusingly I decided to turn on hover (and its 2.5% defense, sorry) so that gales stopped occasionally throwing me around. Interestingly, if you let that go long enough, the accumulated gales will slowly push you upward into the sky: the scientists were slowly inching upward to chase me. Too funny.
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Crud, that was supposed to be a PM to TopDoc, who measured Radiation Infection to be 31.25% or so in a different thread.
Sorry. Too many open tabs >.<
[ QUOTE ]
Crud, that was supposed to be a PM to TopDoc, who measured Radiation Infection to be 31.25% or so in a different thread.
Sorry. Too many open tabs >.<
[/ QUOTE ]
My experience matches his testing, if his testing tested unslotted powers. TopDoc is pretty methodical: if he tested slotted powers, I would have expected him to note the slotting.
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Yes, his PM in reply said that it was with unslotted Rad Infection. Very very surprising results, but it looks like slotted RI can beat a +0 Archvillain.
Besides in the thread that Mieux refrenced it looks like Castle was looking at the Corruptor version of Darkest Night and not what a Defender could do. Which would explain why our experience and his numbers don't match. Honestly Mieux, if you have played Dark to the high levels do you honestly think that darkest night is only a 30% to-hit debuff slotted with 3 SOs?
[ QUOTE ]
Besides in the thread that Mieux refrenced it looks like Castle was looking at the Corruptor version of Darkest Night and not what a Defender could do. Which would explain why our experience and his numbers don't match. Honestly Mieux, if you have played Dark to the high levels do you honestly think that darkest night is only a 30% to-hit debuff slotted with 3 SOs?
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope: I remember this exchange, so I remember what happened.
First, Castle said this:
[ QUOTE ]
Debuffs are applied to To Hit, not Accuracy. So, a 30% To Hit Debuff on an AV would result in the AV having (50% - 30%) * 1.5 [Their Accuracy Modifier] or 30% chance to hit someone with no Defense. If you have 5% Defense on top of the Debuff, that would be cut down to 22.5% chance to hit. If you have 20% Defense on top of the Debuff, then the AV's chance to hit would be 7.5%. A Defender with Darkest Night with 3 even level To Hit Debuff Enhancements has a 30% To Hit Debuff.
Lastly, To Hit Debuffs essentially fulfill the function of Defense for everyone the Debuffed target attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the post Mieux links, on 1/13/06
Then on 1/16/06, he posts:
[ QUOTE ]
FYI: darkest Night
Its base Scale is 1.5. It has been since at least I3 (that's as far back as I checked.) Defenders multiple is .125 and enhancements are 1.98 (my calcs before were thinking ToHit Debuffs were Schedule B.)
1.5 * 0.125 * 1.98 = .37125 or a tad over 37%.
Any guide that says it is Base 30 Probably meant 30% mitigation, since that lines up with the 1.5 base.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the post Blueeyed links to. Note the highlighted portion. He was correcting his previous post. Mieux's happy dance on that link was premature. Also, Castle was rough calculating, because the general topic for discussion was how the new tohit mechanics would work, not the fine details of the precise strength of the debuffs. Both of his calculations, the original one and the corrected one, don't take ED into account, for example, but that's not relevant to the point he was making.
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[ QUOTE ]
Yes, his PM in reply said that it was with unslotted Rad Infection. Very very surprising results, but it looks like slotted RI can beat a +0 Archvillain.
[/ QUOTE ]
In I6 not quite, although it can floor a +0 Boss. Archvillians currently have 75% base tohit, which would require 70% tohit debuff or 35% base for RI to have a shot at it. Its surprising on paper, but not really surprising to anyone who's used it regularly.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The KB does go directly away from you
[/ QUOTE ] is it the same trajectory as Energy Torrent? My memory was that it was more like a footstomp knockback. But as I said...I've seen this power used all of one mission...and every time it got fired I'm like "Who keeps doing that?!!?!!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed it is the same trajectory as Energy Torrent, though the chance for KB is a little less than ET.
Heh. Phone home.
Yeah.