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I've smacked them with Gravity Well and still seen the bubbles
[/ QUOTE ] The graphic remains....I don't think the buff does. Like a FF who uses PFF and DB together. IIRCC, the DB is still there, but it doesn't affect anyone.
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I'm not sure this proves what you think it does. When I fire PGA at a Tsoo sorc...and he teleports before the arrow fires....the patch shows up on him...and in the location he was before he teleported. What happens graphically, is not necessarily what happens functionally.
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Actually, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes the debuff appears where he ends up but no debuff graphic appears where is was standing HOWEVER every mob around where he was standing will have a purple cloud around their torso and in fact have their damage debuffed.
The cloud in Poison Gas Arrow's case has nothing to do with it's debuff. I actually wish they would get rid of that animation because it makes it hard to see smaller mobs like red caps, gears, rubble etc.
From what I have seen of the power, there are two debuffs that don't stack with each other. One is applied upon activation and the other is applied from a spawn created by the Arrow wherever it hits. We could always ask the defender rep for a certain answer though.
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I've smacked them with Gravity Well and still seen the bubbles
[/ QUOTE ] The graphic remains....I don't think the buff does. Like a FF who uses PFF and DB together. IIRCC, the DB is still there, but it doesn't affect anyone.
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The graphic is still there because the power is still active. It's simply prevented from affecting anyone but the defender.
The FF Generator continues to generate the graphic because it's not a toggle. If you hold a Ruin Mage, the graphic will drop.
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All this from a lvl 27 perspective? Really?
[/ QUOTE ] My TA is 27, I've a bunch of other toons that are much higher. More importantly, I have a strong fundamental understsanding of the game, the AI, the powers in other sets and AT's.
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How interesting, considering some other statements.
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If you want to feel worthless in a fight, go fight a Monster with FF. Unless you can find a corner to FB him into...you are going to annoy others if you push it into other mobs or out of location AoE's.
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So, in addition to being apparently the only person who plays Trick Arrow well, you're also the only person who's able to apply knockback to Monsters. Fascinating.
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Otherwise, RI can genearlly neutralize their +DEF bonus, while at the same time sticking close to the Engineer who generally engages in melee.
In addition, I'm slapping EF on it as well. So I'm getting three debuffs and losing one in exchange for an anchor that won't flee the scene.
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RI and EF provide four debuffs, not just three.
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And lastly, if I have a controller on the group, RI on the FF Gen will allow the controller to reliably Hold the gen, which I believe stops the bubbles, but I haven't tested that.
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Then by all means go and test it. Being held does not stop NPC enemies from flying; I see no reason to assume that the force field generators will drop their disperson bubbles. I know for a fact that the graphics are still there when the generator is held. What, exactly, is the basis of your belief that holding a generator stops its force field?
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I'd be willing to argue my perspective is much broader than yours. Rather than bemoaning what I can't do and acting like everyone else can do what I can...I recognize what I can do that others can't. I've played the other sets. I've teamed with the other sets. If you want to feel worthless in a fight, go fight a Monster with FF. Unless you can find a corner to FB him into...you are going to annoy others if you push it into other mobs or out of location AoE's.
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A good FF, someone with skill comparable to that necessary to get trick arrow out of the gate without tripping, doesn't need a corner.
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And lastly, if I have a controller on the group, RI on the FF Gen will allow the controller to reliably Hold the gen, which I believe stops the bubbles, but I haven't tested that.
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I'm reasonably certain thats not the case. I believe you have to destroy them, because as Kali said, its not a toggle. At least, it was true back when my Ill/rad actually faced sky raiders.
My Ill/rad didn't use generators for anchors for precisely that reason (they were always the first to go). I have never seen a rad deliberately lock toggles consistently onto FF generators that didn't also do significantly crazier things, except in the old days when they used to buff each other into untouchability.
Off topic true story: one of my earliest w-t-f moments in CoH came at around level 18 when I saw a level 25 FF generator left behind from an ambush. I stared at it, flew around it, and fired at it *a lot* before deciding it was part of the environment, because I couldn't hit it.
Later that day I saw something called "Tree of Life" hanging around, and assumed the devs of this game were just whacked.
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Alright, Flash Arrow is equal to Smoke Grenade, maybe a whole 2.5% better. It's still a lot of your damage mitigation, a good 40% of it, so take this power and slot it. Doesn't stack, but it misses often enough that you'll want to fire it pretty often.
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I've got to disagree here. Unless you're fighting -1s or less, you'll barely even notice the debuff
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Thank you!
When TA and archery first came out, I created a def TA/archery and a blaster archer just to see how I liked them. I NEVER saw anything I could identify as far as Flash Arrow being helpful, and have wondered why it is that everyone raves about it.
I finally settled on the TA/archer, but I play her like a blaster, which is really what I wanted in the first place. (I HATE that all the archer/blaster secondaries force your toon to put away the bow! It looks just incredibly stupid....if only it was animated so that that she would toss grenades with her right hand while still holding the bow with the left, I'd be less incensed....) Despite everything said here, I avoided Flash Arrow the second time around, and I've been a lot happier with the result. I haven't any any trouble soloing her at all, which I can't say for my empathy def.
I'll [i]almost certainly[/i] be happy with I7....."SOON(tm)"
Too bad "Maturity" isn't an Enhanceable power.
Anybody with a bow is okay in my book. ;-)
@Linuial
Starfire/Hellfire
Liberty, Infinity & Protector
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I'd be willing to argue my perspective is much broader than yours. Rather than bemoaning what I can't do and acting like everyone else can do what I can...I recognize what I can do that others can't. I've played the other sets. I've teamed with the other sets. If you want to feel worthless in a fight, go fight a Monster with FF. Unless you can find a corner to FB him into...you are going to annoy others if you push it into other mobs or out of location AoE's.
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A good FF, someone with skill comparable to that necessary to get trick arrow out of the gate without tripping, doesn't need a corner.
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Considering none of the KB and Repel powers work on Monsters *at all* (or the majority of AVs for that matter), I fail to see where the skill of the Bubbler even enters into it...
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The graphic is still there because the power is still active. It's simply prevented from affecting anyone but the defender.
[/ QUOTE ] ...sigh....Yes Kali. I know that. The point is the graphic is not determinitve of what effect is in effect.
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I'm reasonably certain thats not the case. I believe you have to destroy them, because as Kali said, its not a toggle. At least, it was true back when my Ill/rad actually faced sky raiders.
[/ QUOTE ] My first experience playing CoH was with my DM/SR and my friends Grav/FF. I recall that when he held the FF's I was able to actually hit something....but that was back in I2...and as I've said...I've never specifically tested to see what effect a Hold has on FF's and Eminators. It's possible that their powers are implemented as passives.
In any event, FF gens make great anchors IME.
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RI and EF provide four debuffs, not just three.
[/ QUOTE ] Your inability to understand what is being said here forces me to write you off.
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RI and EF provide four debuffs, not just three.
[/ QUOTE ] Your inability to understand what is being said here forces me to write you off.
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Yes because obviously the way in which you post could never be misleading or cause a misunderstanding, and something like that has NEVER happened before.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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In any event, FF gens make great anchors IME.
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Do we need any more to make a solid judgment on the usefulness of Mieux's experience?
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Considering none of the KB and Repel powers work on Monsters *at all* (or the majority of AVs for that matter), I fail to see where the skill of the Bubbler even enters into it...
[/ QUOTE ] Ha...I guess that explains why I felt so worthless.
As far as Knockback not working "at all" I know that KnockDown does. I know that KnockDown/Back can be implemented as the same power but differentiated by magnitude. I am pretty sure I've seen AV's get knocked back...but i won't bet my life on that. I thought I'd seen Monsters get pushed around, but maybe they were AV's, or maybe they were part of missions or maybe they were doing that thing were they they move, but you dont' see the animation of their feet moving and I thought it was a Hurricane or Force Bubble pushing them around. I've also been knocked back and the animation on my screen simply shows me being pushed backwards rather than knocked backwards. As I said above, the graphics don't always match the effect.
Case in point, Jump Kick on a target will show a knockdown animation even if the target has technically not been knocked down.
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Considering none of the KB and Repel powers work on Monsters *at all* (or the majority of AVs for that matter), I fail to see where the skill of the Bubbler even enters into it...
[/ QUOTE ] Ha...I guess that explains why I felt so worthless.
As far as Knockback not working "at all" I know that KnockDown does. I know that KnockDown/Back can be implemented as the same power but differentiated by magnitude. I am pretty sure I've seen AV's get knocked back...but i won't bet my life on that. I thought I'd seen Monsters get pushed around, but maybe they we AV's, or maybe there part of missions or maybe they were doing that thing were they they move, but you dont' see the animation of their feet moving and I thought it was a Hurricane or Force Bubble pushing them around.
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I have seen this too on very rare occasions. But the chance is so low it cannot be counted upon. I have spammed the likes of Force Bolt at AVs non-stop with no effect. And I've never seen Force Bubble have the slightest effect on one. There are a few KB vulnerable AVs. So there may also be a few "Monsters" that can be affected as well. But the majority simply ignore both effects.
Note also that there is (spotty) evidence that Controller's "critical mez" works with KB/KD - allowing them to occasionally knockabout things that would otherwise be unaffected.
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The graphic is still there because the power is still active. It's simply prevented from affecting anyone but the defender.
[/ QUOTE ] ...sigh....Yes Kali. I know that. The point is the graphic is not determinitve of what effect is in effect.
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On the contrary, if the power graphic is active, odds are the power is active. This is consistent throughout the game, discounting glitches.
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Just on a nitpick binge aren't you? Obviously we are talking about glitches. Obvioulsy there should be an "always" in front of "determinative.
We are talking about, or at least I am talking about, things like Tar Patch's debuff graphic which used to stay on mobs long after the debuff wore off. Or maybe when I see disorient graphics on my toon and he or she is not disoriented. etc. etc. etc.
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I have seen this too on very rare occasions.
[/ QUOTE ] It occurs to me that maybe when I saw/see this it might be from toons higher level than the mobs. I recall that they changed the way Monsters worked so that heroes could no longer be higher level than they were or something to that effect. So some of this knockback may have been before the changes were implemented.
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Obviously we are talking about glitches. Obvioulsy there should be an "always" in front of "determinative.
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No, it's not obviously a glitch. That PFF and Dispersion display both graphics isn't a glitch, after all, which was an example you used.
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We are talking about, or at least I am talking about, things like Tar Patch's debuff graphic which used to stay on mobs long after the debuff wore off. Or maybe when I see disorient graphics on my toon and he or she is not disoriented. etc. etc. etc.
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Those appear to be different circumstances, hence the distinction. It could be that the generator is glitched so that the dispersion bubble displays while held. However, it seems odd that it would only happen to the FFG, and not to anything else in the game that uses dispersion bubbles (admittedly, haven't checked it out on the Traps FFG). The disorient graphic (along with "cold air" effects, smoke effects, gravity control effects) sticking around isn't consistent - it happens, but not every time someone is struck with a status effect. The tar patch debuff graphic was more consistent, obviously. In none of those cases were the glitched graphics on the source of the power that caused them.
NPCs who use toggles turn them on for a period of time - they shut off and come back on. You can watch a Ruin Mage do this all day, or a behemoth with invincibility, or a void hunter with his anti-energy/negative shield. I've seen elite bosses and AVs do this. FFGs leave the FF on. It doesn't behave like toggles on most NPCs.
It shouldn't be too hard to test, though - just hit the FFG with a hold, and then with a confuse. If your teammates get the buff, it still buffs. If not, it doesn't.
Anyway, I'm not attacking you. I'm disagreeing that this is definitively the case. It could be the case, but it'd need to be tested.
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I have seen this too on very rare occasions.
[/ QUOTE ] It occurs to me that maybe when I saw/see this it might be from toons higher level than the mobs. I recall that they changed the way Monsters worked so that heroes could no longer be higher level than they were or something to that effect. So some of this knockback may have been before the changes were implemented.
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Last night I was on a team of 8 including an FF defender, a mind controller, an ice/storm controller, someone with energy blast, and my ice/energy blaster. We were running in Croatoa.
Someone managed to knock Eochai down. Not sure who, though. We had enough knockback to sink Titanic, after all.
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I was under the impression that NPCs don't use toggles, and that all their powers are "clicks." Which is why using a Hold or Disorient on a flying enemy doesn't cause them to fall from the sky. Did that change?
Also (I think something like this was mentioned, you guys are getting so off-topic, it seems) Glue Arrow's graphic has not been disappearing after the effect ends. They start moving at normal speed, but the spewing, gurgling glue is still on their feet, even when they die, but it's clear that the -Speed is not affecting them (It's especially clear on deceased enemies 
).
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I'd be willing to argue my perspective is much broader than yours. Rather than bemoaning what I can't do and acting like everyone else can do what I can...I recognize what I can do that others can't. I've played the other sets. I've teamed with the other sets. If you want to feel worthless in a fight, go fight a Monster with FF. Unless you can find a corner to FB him into...you are going to annoy others if you push it into other mobs or out of location AoE's.
[/ QUOTE ]
A good FF, someone with skill comparable to that necessary to get trick arrow out of the gate without tripping, doesn't need a corner.
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Considering none of the KB and Repel powers work on Monsters *at all* (or the majority of AVs for that matter), I fail to see where the skill of the Bubbler even enters into it...
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I thought the Kronos Titan was a monster, and I know I've knocked him down with jump kick many many many times. Once I did nothing but cycle jump kick and dragon's tail on him as fast as possible just for fun (JK much more effective than DT, though).
As to normal AVs, I have been able to stack enough knock with my energy blaster to knock them down occasionally (its possible this only works in tandem with someone else with knockback), although they are normally extremely resistant to single applications of knockback.
As to skill, I was referring to controlling KB in general, not on monsters specifically. When you do manage to knock over a monster or an AV, their KB resistance virtually always guarantees that it will be knockdown, not knockback, so control is not an issue in those fights specifically.
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[ QUOTE ]
That PFF and Dispersion display both graphics isn't a glitch,
[/ QUOTE ] I would argue that the DB should be reduced to form a bubble within the bubble of PFF. If DB is still displayed as a large bubble, and this is no different with PFF on or off, then the fact that the effect is limited by PFF and the graphic isn't, is imo glitchy.
I am in the bubble...I get the bonus. I am still in the bubble...I get no bonus? Players should be able to rely on the graphic of the bubble to know that they are getting protection. My .10
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Those appear to be different circumstances, hence the distinction.
[/ QUOTE ] As far as the particulars, yes...but this is general point, not a specific one. Graphics are not 100% determinitive.
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It shouldn't be too hard to test, though - just hit the FFG with a hold, and then with a confuse. If your teammates get the buff, it still buffs. If not, it doesn't.
[/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you think this would be dispositive. FF's and Eminators are immune to Confuse and Deceive every time I've seen this tried.
Does DB still put the individual bubble around a teammate when PFF is in operation? If not...then maybe the same test would be applicable to FF Gens. Does the bubble disappear around the Raiders? If it did, that would probalby be a strong indication the debuff is cancelled.
It seems very likely that the buff is auto and can't be turned off, especially on something like an eminator. As for as feelling like the hold stops the debuff on gens...
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I was under the impression that NPCs don't use toggles, and that all their powers are "clicks." Which is why using a Hold or Disorient on a flying enemy doesn't cause them to fall from the sky. Did that change?
Also (I think something like this was mentioned, you guys are getting so off-topic, it seems) Glue Arrow's graphic has not been disappearing after the effect ends. They start moving at normal speed, but the spewing, gurgling glue is still on their feet, even when they die, but it's clear that the -Speed is not affecting them (It's especially clear on deceased enemies ).
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A lot of things are inherents, like most foes' flight, and most foes' defense and resistance. But they do use toggles: hurricane and invincibility come to mind. They also use clicks: elude and MoG come to mind.
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Hm... I've smacked them with Gravity Well and still seen the bubbles, though, admittedly, the Generator did die pretty soon after that.
I prefer killing the generators and aggroing a grunt enough to keep him off the tank. The walker ones, Infernos in particular, don't seem to like running away.
:shrug: whatever works.