The Last CoV Primer - How's This Gonna Work?
By
40Thieves,
Posted on: 2005-06-02 17:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I dont consider the updates as an exspansion to me if you are buying a CD/DVD that should be an exspansion.
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Well, several of the CoH Issues singly would have half-filled a cdr. Individual compilation disks of the 2004 Issues and 2005 Issues each would have filled a cdr. Why are you hung up on physical distribution? It's archaic in a world growing increasingly broadband.
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I'm probably being a pain but I've played other MMORPG's and this is the first one thats run this way to me.
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See my earlier comment on experimentation. I'm not sure if this will work out for the company and for the consumer as well as some expect, but it is interesting and ultimately changeable after the fact.
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I dont consider the updates as an exspansion to me if you are buying a CD/DVD that should be an exspansion.
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Well, even with Issue 4, I get more out of the free Issue Updates than I ever got for an EQ expansion.
And are you sure you didn't buy a collection-type disc when you started UO? Eq does those every two or so expansions.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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All of the major updates which have been released so far (Issues 1 to 5) would qualify as expansions in any other MMORPG (like EQ) and we would have had to pay for them
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I dont consider the updates as an exspansion to me if you are buying a CD/DVD that should be an exspansion.
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All of the issues aren't expansions. Right. If they are not expansions, then you must consider them patches, right??
As far as I know, patches don't:
Raise the level cap to 50.
Give you new zones (Hollows, Striga Isle)
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I'm probably being a pain but I've played other MMORPG's and this is the first one thats run this way to me.
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That's fair. What Cryptic and NCSoft are doing is changing the way that new parts of a MMORPG are given out to the customer. Traditionally, you had to buy each expansion. With CoH, you get the expansions for free. That's right, you don't pay for them at all. It is easier for them, as they can ensure that whomever is playing the game all have the same version of the game installed on their computer. It is a paradigm shift away from the traditional way that MMORPGs are run. (See also Guildwars, published also by NCSoft and produced by Arena.net)
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The older Versions gave you "Patches" (Issues 1-5 for COH) that had afew fixes for various things along with some add-ons they gave you.
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Nope, a patch is, by definition, a fix to the problems in the game. They may also gove some small content changes. However, level cap raises and new zones most definately fall under the realm of expansions.
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AFAIK (and I am not an expert) CoV will be the first game that allows you to play the bad guy.
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Only way COV will be the first game that allows you to play a bad guy is because of the New AT's connected with the game. Ultima Online you can be a bad guy in a land called Felucca, To become a bad guy you would "defeat" the good guys. By getting 5 murder counts from killing "Blues"the goodguys you became a badguy untill you workd off those counts. While being a bad guy you were unable to go to any of the good guy lands.
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However, with CoV, you don't need to buy CoH to play CoV.
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Actually, by doing it this way, they are ensuring a much higher subscription base
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So they want higher subscription base and show what? that theres 100people playing the game with 2 accounts each so theres a BIG O'200 Subscribers? That doesnt make sence if you ask me. Bascially that just sounds like they're looking at the $$$$ instead of what they really should be looking at.
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Actually, as a company producing a game, the bottom line ($$$) is exactly what they should be looking at. If they don't look at that, the game goes under and we no longer have CoH to play.
ANd while setting it up as a seperate game will bring more subscriptions into CoV, it will do so at the expense of some CoH subscriptions. I know that I will have to see whether or not I will be playing both, or just choose one. The price reduction if you have both as compared to just one will probably help the decision, but I have to see, timewise, if I have the time to devote to both.
I'm not sure whom said it...I don't feeling like going back up and quoting them..but CoV is NOT the first game to allow a player to play the villian. What about World of Warcraft? I'm sry, but are we not allowed to play either the Alliance *good guy* consisting of Humans, Night Elves, Dwarves, and Gnomes and allow you to PvP the Horde *bad guy* consisting of Orcs, Trolls, Undead, and Taurens....and vice versa? If I'm wrong, then I guess I better go back and relog in *my other fave game* and relook at my Undead Warlock because as far as I or anyone that plays that game or Blizzard is concerned that is good guy v.s bad guy and allows pvp. And Blizzard even implimented all of it's upgrades without making their customers have to go out and buy a new expansion to play them. And yes..some of theirs were as big as CoH's has been.
As for UO, FFXI, SWG...they all have the original game...then they have expansions which the subscriber has to go buy and install in order to play in the latest areas get the latest items etc, and not have to pay for a second account. But...someone whos never had the game could go and buy the latest and still get all that. They are as well expansions. A patch is something that is DL'd to update your game before logging in...as in the Issues that CoH has or calls them...no matter how big or small the patch is. An Expansion is something that you can go out and purchase to add extremely new and overly large content to your game. You don't have to go purchase it though to play what you already have. CoV is essentially an Expansion Pack, no matter what they wanna call it. If it was a stand alone, they wouldn't be able to interact with the CoH paying customers, the 'Heroes' of their realm would be all npc's just like for us, our 'villians are all npc's. Again, no matter how they wanna call it...Stand Alone, Expansion..or Stand-Alone-Expansion...it's still an Expansion Pack, and their dedicated CoH paying customers should not have to pay for a second monthly fee just to get that content. Pay for the Expansion itself...no way to get around that in any online game..but not another monthly fee.
In fact..take SWG. THeir latest...TOtal Experience...you can go and get that, have access to everything that came before, and get Anakin's Speedster as a ty for buying gift...OR... if you already have SWG, you could go to their website, DL the expansion, paying a very low minimal fee because you already have the game..and as a result instead of the speedster you can get Obie's Lizard ride as the ty gift.
Now...from my understanding...and I'd sorely love to hear from an actual developer or someone that works for NCSoft that takes care of the boards and answering questions for their players....Players of CoH will still have to go buy CoV if they want that content...sad..but I'm so used to it now with all the online games I play that it doesn't phase me anymore. But in doing that, they create a new log in name for CoV, because it would be like having the icon for CoH on your computer and having the icon for CoH's training server...they are two different entities...but that your CoH and CoV names would be linked to your billing account, and no added monthly fees will be assesed. You only pay for the one account. On the other hand, you dont' have CoH, you buy CoV, then you of course have the monthly fee.
But as I said, and as I read through this last page...the only ones answering are players with what they think will happen, or hope will happen, or fear will happen....we need to hear from a person of Authority over this.
I have to agree with Darklite, that if NCSoft is going to make the CoH player not only pay for CoV, but also a second monthly fee, fulll or otherwise, is absurd and shows that all they care about is getting money...and that is no way to treat your paying customers because they will in turn leave. I've seen it happen one to many times in other online games.
Only my two-cents...and I'll say it again, as noone else has said..I'm not an authority for NCSoft, so nothing I've said is what is actually happening and all we can do is sit and wait...and hopefully our answers will come soon.
Two niggle points, but otherwise a fine post.
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I have to agree with Darklite, that if NCSoft is going to make the CoH player not only pay for CoV, but also a second monthly fee, fulll or otherwise, is absurd and shows that all they care about is getting money...
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Actually, in logical terms that can be proven, the hypothetical CoH+CoV fee raise only allows for the possibility that NCSoft/Cryptic are venal profiteers using the facts we have at our disposal. It doesn't prove it. We all can agree to disagree on the companies' motivations.
Also, "but also a second monthly fee, fulll or otherwise"? Really? Why not just say, "full, quadruple, in blood, requiring proof of inbreeding... or otherwise" while you're at it? I hate to harp on this but it's just so loony. It's "otherwise". That's official. Subject locked off. Citations from 4 different sources. LOL.
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Players of CoH will still have to go buy CoV if they want that content...sad..but I'm so used to it now with all the online games I play that it doesn't phase me anymore.
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Why so sad? Cryptic provides plenty of content updates for no additional charge. CoV is optional for people that enjoy CoH. This is the USA the last time I checked. It's not illegal or immoral to expect compensation for services rendered.
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A patch is something that is DL'd to update your game before logging in...as in the Issues that CoH has or calls them...no matter how big or small the patch is. An Expansion is something that you can go out and purchase to add extremely new and overly large content to your game.
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Okay, lets look at this :
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A patch is something that is DL'd to update your game before logging in...as in the Issues that CoH has or calls them...no matter how big or small the patch is.
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Okay, while City of Heroes has a history of including big patches with their Issues, a patch is a FIX to a bit of code, either a bug or even a tidy code isssue. A patch does not really add anything, or if it does it is VERY small.
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An Expansion is something that you can go out and purchase to add extremely new and overly large content to your game.
[/ QUOTE ] An expansion is anything that EXPANDS on existing content. So, except what I bolded, what you said is 100% correct - but what was bolded is just how it has been done by most other places.
Quite simply, a bug fix does not add a whole new zone, or whole new systems (Striga or PVP arenas for example). And Expansion does.
And even though I don't PVP I still find that have gotten more out of every Issuse than out of any expansion to EQ except Planes of Power, and even then, CoH starts out with train lines and you get travel powers for all as soon as 14, unlike EQ with their massive zones and either expensive mounts or 'portation by a few classes.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Why so sad? Cryptic provides plenty of content updates for no additional charge. CoV is optional for people that enjoy CoH. This is the USA the last time I checked. It's not illegal or immoral to expect compensation for services rendered.
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I think you need to reread what I said. Though you quoted it so you would think you would use your eyes and your brain instead of just reacting like a child.
I said... Players of CoH will still have to go buy CoV if they want that content. Period. So why you felt you had to go and restate what I said is unknown to me. As for it being sad? If one wants to play that content they have to go Buy that content...hmm...more money outta pocket when the economy is like it is...for some getting CoV isn't an option or won't be.. for awhile. So yes, that is sad. Did I say that it was illegal or immoral for Cryptic/NCSoft to ask consumers to pay for that Expansion...umm...no. So don't put words in my mouth.
As for your comment to my second monthly fee or otherwise comment. All I have to say to you is ... Grow-up.
As for Leech...decipher it how you will, think how you will. But I know from experience playing many online games, that there are large patches that come out that are just that..patches..and they expand on exisiting content. WoW is a perfect example since they implemented many new areas with a patch. Players weren't asked to go out and Buy a new WoW expansion Pack to get the content.
And with that...I will not be posting again here. I refuse to play back and forth with kiddies. I stated my opinions, you stated yours. Leave it at that. My views, and my opinions and my thoughts are just that ... mine. And yours are yours. Essentially, don't try to change my and I'm not going to try to change yours.
Yes i'm sure I did not purchase a special collection type disc if i had of i would of gotten special gifts. And just for those who are unsure of what i'm speaking of here I went and did a search here is what I found I do know what i'm talking about. This is concerning Ultima Online's Age Of shadows which came out in 2003. [ QUOTE ]
Purchasing/Upgrade/Release Questions
When is Ultima Online: Age of Shadows scheduled for release?
Age of Shadows is scheduled to hit the shelves in February of 2003.
What exactly is new in AoS?
Lots - as a matter of fact, too much to list here! For a complete run-down of all the features included in Age of Shadows check out our features page. Each week we will be adding more information about specific features, so be sure to check back often.
If I buy AoS, will I need to buy any of the past expansions to get the content offered in those expansions?
Nope! Just as with our previous expansions, Age of Shadows has everything you need to be completely current. No other purchase necessary!
What extras will be in the box?
This hasn't been determined at this time. Stay tuned!
What will be the cost?
Once again, this isn't set in stone yet. We could give you an estimate, but then we'd have to kill you. Okay, just kidding. We'll let you know once we have more information!
Will AoS come with both an upgrade code for existing accounts as well as a registration code for new accounts?
Yes indeed! Just like Lord Blackthorn's Revenge, Age of Shadows will come with an upgrade code to upgrade your current account to the new version, as well as a code to create a brand new Age of Shadows account, complete with 30 free days of gameplay.
Will I get any free game time?
If you start a new account with Age of Shadows, your first 30 days are free!
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And for those who would like to see where I found this heres the link to Stratics, Purchasing/Upgrading of Accounts anyhow check out thier homepage perhaps COH and COv could try to do the same thing by combining the two into one account instead of having accounts all over the place.
Ultima Online Official Website
I should also add that UO gave extra content to the older versions via "Updates" Just the Major new things were in the Newer Exspansions. Kinda likea test drive, you get to try it out in an older version if you like it and want more of it you go get the newer addition.
My Supergroup is Ghost Legion, Insane Crusaders of Ghost Legion, Ghost Legion of Liberty, My Villiangroup is Shadow Wraiths.
My Global is @Darklite and @DazzlerDarklite
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As for it being sad? If one wants to play that content they have to go Buy that content...hmm...more money outta pocket when the economy is like it is...for some getting CoV isn't an option or won't be.. for awhile. So yes, that is sad.
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NCSoft/Cryptic didn't invent 'content for pay', nor is it the only one out there doing it. CoH will continue to be updated regularly at no extra cost - where's the tragedy? 
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But I know from experience playing many online games, that there are large patches that come out that are just that..patches..and they expand on exisiting content. WoW is a perfect example since they implemented many new areas with a patch. Players weren't asked to go out and Buy a new WoW expansion Pack to get the content.
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That's what's so frustrating reading your posts and trying to figure out what you're trying to say. CoH has the same 'patches' that WoW has that require no extra cash and expand the environment and gameplay. If you think WoW won't come out with a paid expansion or somesuch at some point... well, once again we'll have to agree to disagree.
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I'm not sure whom said it...I don't feeling like going back up and quoting them..but CoV is NOT the first game to allow a player to play the villian. What about World of Warcraft? I'm sry, but are we not allowed to play either the Alliance *good guy* consisting of Humans, Night Elves, Dwarves, and Gnomes and allow you to PvP the Horde *bad guy* consisting of Orcs, Trolls, Undead, and Taurens....and vice versa? If I'm wrong, then I guess I better go back and relog in *my other fave game* and relook at my Undead Warlock because as far as I or anyone that plays that game or Blizzard is concerned that is good guy v.s bad guy and allows pvp.
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That is all well and good, but there is a very big difference, IMO, between being part of a faction that is competing with another faction, and being a criminal. CoV will be allowing us to play criminals.
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As for UO, FFXI, SWG...they all have the original game...then they have expansions which the subscriber has to go buy and install in order to play in the latest areas get the latest items etc, and not have to pay for a second account. But...someone whos never had the game could go and buy the latest and still get all that. They are as well expansions. A patch is something that is DL'd to update your game before logging in...as in the Issues that CoH has or calls them...no matter how big or small the patch is. An Expansion is something that you can go out and purchase to add extremely new and overly large content to your game. You don't have to go purchase it though to play what you already have.
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Looking solely at the method of delivery is, IMO, an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at things. Don't look at how it is delivered, look at the content that is being received. Like I mentioned above, patches do not do the following:
1 - Raise the level cap
2 - Give a new zone (The Hollows)
3 - Give another new zone (Striga)
4 - Implement PvP
In addition, like I mentioned above, Cryptic/NCSoft is trying a new method of delivering major updates to their customers. For free!!
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CoV is essentially an Expansion Pack, no matter what they wanna call it. If it was a stand alone, they wouldn't be able to interact with the CoH paying customers, the 'Heroes' of their realm would be all npc's just like for us, our 'villians are all npc's. Again, no matter how they wanna call it...Stand Alone, Expansion..or Stand-Alone-Expansion...it's still an Expansion Pack, and their dedicated CoH paying customers should not have to pay for a second monthly fee just to get that content. Pay for the Expansion itself...no way to get around that in any online game..but not another monthly fee.
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By definition, to play an expansion pack, you need to have the original first, correct?? Then how come people will be able to buy City of Villians and play it without installing City of Heroes first?? Then, if they buy City of Heroes and get the interaction with the heroes, does that not then, by your definition, make City of Heroes an expansion to CoV??
CoH and CoV and how they interact do not fit the traditional mold that content updates MMORPGs have provided in the past. Thus, applying the labels attached to those traditional content updates is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
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Now...from my understanding...and I'd sorely love to hear from an actual developer or someone that works for NCSoft that takes care of the boards and answering questions for their players....Players of CoH will still have to go buy CoV if they want that content...sad..but I'm so used to it now with all the online games I play that it doesn't phase me anymore.
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But if you wanted the added content from the expansions to SWG or EQ or UO, you had to pay for them as well, so I am not sure why you are sad.
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But in doing that, they create a new log in name for CoV, because it would be like having the icon for CoH on your computer and having the icon for CoH's training server...they are two different entities...but that your CoH and CoV names would be linked to your billing account, and no added monthly fees will be assesed. You only pay for the one account. On the other hand, you dont' have CoH, you buy CoV, then you of course have the monthly fee.
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Seeing as how no decision has been made on the pricing structure of CoV alone, CoH alone or if you own the two, it is premature to make any statements on how the log-in will work. From what the devs have said they would like to have happen, if you own and play both, you will pay one monthly fee that is lower than what the two would be seperately. However, nothing is set in stone yet.
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But as I said, and as I read through this last page...the only ones answering are players with what they think will happen, or hope will happen, or fear will happen....we need to hear from a person of Authority over this.
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Because no decision has been made yet by NCSoft, there is nothing the devs can say. It is out of their hands, so they are being responsible and not saying anything that could muddy the waters or cause confusion.
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I have to agree with Darklite, that if NCSoft is going to make the CoH player not only pay for CoV, but also a second monthly fee, fulll or otherwise, is absurd and shows that all they care about is getting money...and that is no way to treat your paying customers because they will in turn leave. I've seen it happen one to many times in other online games.
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That is an incredibly short-sighted view. As Clintonian mentioned, we already get a lot of extra content from Cryptic/NCSoft for free, now you want them to give us a second game as well?? Are you going to volunteer to go work for them for free?
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Only my two-cents...and I'll say it again, as noone else has said..I'm not an authority for NCSoft, so nothing I've said is what is actually happening and all we can do is sit and wait...and hopefully our answers will come soon.
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That is kindof understood. No need to state it.
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Why so sad? Cryptic provides plenty of content updates for no additional charge. CoV is optional for people that enjoy CoH. This is the USA the last time I checked. It's not illegal or immoral to expect compensation for services rendered.
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I think you need to reread what I said. Though you quoted it so you would think you would use your eyes and your brain instead of just reacting like a child.
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Pot. Kettle. Black.
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<snip>As for Leech...decipher it how you will, think how you will. But I know from experience playing many online games, that there are large patches that come out that are just that..patches..and they expand on exisiting content. WoW is a perfect example since they implemented many new areas with a patch. Players weren't asked to go out and Buy a new WoW expansion Pack to get the content.
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Comparison with WoW and EQII are not valid. They have yet to deliver their first major expansion pack (AFAIK) so there is no information upon which to base your claim.
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And with that...I will not be posting again here. I refuse to play back and forth with kiddies. I stated my opinions, you stated yours. Leave it at that. My views, and my opinions and my thoughts are just that ... mine. And yours are yours. Essentially, don't try to change my and I'm not going to try to change yours.
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It is unfortunate you feel that way. Your posts are thoughtful and well written, and while I don't agree with some of your points, I think the discussion of them would be interesting.
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All of the issues aren't expansions. Right. If they are not expansions, then you must consider them patches, right??
As far as I know, patches don't:
Raise the level cap to 50.
Give you new zones (Hollows, Striga Isle)
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Patches do just companies say hummm this isnt working how we'd exspect lets fix it by throwing something like this in. A new zone here or they're a bonus, raise in Level Cap was needed.
[quote="marsbar"] However, with CoV, you don't need to buy CoH to play CoV.
[/ QUOTE ] As I've stated before If you were to go out and lets say buy Age Of Shadows You did not need to have the first Original Ultima Online to play it, It was all in that ONE CD.
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Actually, as a company producing a game, the bottom line ($$$) is exactly what they should be looking at. If they don't look at that, the game goes under and we no longer have CoH to play.
ANd while setting it up as a seperate game will bring more subscriptions into CoV, it will do so at the expense of some CoH subscriptions.
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Yes, they should look at the money but they should also be looking at how to keep it comming by making people have two accounts one for City of Heroes and one for City of Villians they are looking at one of those accounts closing, how is that an advantage of keeping the $$$ coming in? By making it so you can Purchase City of Villians and have all the Content City of Heroes has as of now, for the New Consumers, and for old ones letting them Upgrade thier accounts to City of Villians they are insureing that they will still have that $$$ comming in instead of canceld accounts from older versions to go to newer ones.
My Supergroup is Ghost Legion, Insane Crusaders of Ghost Legion, Ghost Legion of Liberty, My Villiangroup is Shadow Wraiths.
My Global is @Darklite and @DazzlerDarklite
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However, with CoV, you don't need to buy CoH to play CoV.
[/ QUOTE ] As I've stated before If you were to go out and lets say buy Age Of Shadows You did not need to have the first Original Ultima Online to play it, It was all in that ONE CD.
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But you still need the original game to play. Whether you get it in its own seperate CD or bundled with the expansion, you need to have the basic game installed on the computer. With CoV, you will not need CoH to be installed in order to play it. That is the big thing that makes CoV not an expansion.
I am going to Comment on Mars' post even though I said I wouldn't be posting anymore. Only because he has been complimentary of my posts.
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Looking solely at the method of delivery is, IMO, an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at things. Don't look at how it is delivered, look at the content that is being received. Like I mentioned above, patches do not do the following:
1 - Raise the level cap
2 - Give a new zone (The Hollows)
3 - Give another new zone (Striga)
4 - Implement PvP
In addition, like I mentioned above, Cryptic/NCSoft is trying a new method of delivering major updates to their customers. For free!!
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Okay...sigh..going to try to explain this one more time for the small minded people out there that can't seem to grasp this concept.
WoW, World of Warcraft if some don't know, Has patch day on Tuesdays. Patch days can consist of anything from updating code, or fixing bugs...to implimenting brand new areas. Yes..this is a "patch" that they put in that can sometimes add brand new areas.
About a month ago, maybe a bit more, it was Battlegrounds and a few more new end-game instances. Instance being zones to anyone who hasn't played it. About a week or two ago, it was another new end game area as well as a new...hmm...reward area is all I can think of to call it. These were all done by patching.
These were major updates..major expansions if you will. Blizzard could have said "You know...we could put these on disc, and ship them to the stores and make our players buy this in order to play it." But they didn't. So CoH isn't unique in doing that. So in so far as there not being an 'expansion' on the shelves for the consumer to buy for WoW, you are correct Mars' though not in the thought of WoW not having major patch/expansions to the game with brand new content, raised lvls, new areas. As well as...to again quote you "Implement PvP." Battlegrounds was added as a seperate 'Zone' for players to go and PvP the enemy..the bad guy...the villian. This allowed PvP to happen in the game itself, which was already there in the game, as well as specific areas that players could go and PvP in ... ie Battlegrounds.
What Dark and I are trying to explain to you all, whom seem to ignore the actual words and in your brain Assume what we are trying to say, is this. And don't get me wrong, this is a failing of anyone online.
CoV is basically an expansion to CoH. Anyone not having CoH can buy it, and still have access to CoH areas, even though their character is a Villian. No..not all areas...but they get most everything. This isn't a 'unique' concept since many online games do the same thing, they just don't try to convince their players that this is unique and different and that it's a totally different game.
If CoV was a different game, then those who purchase CoV and play Villians would not be able to interact with CoH in any form. They would have their own servers. They may have the same maps, but someone playing a Hero will not come face to face with someone playing a Villian. If they came across 'heroes' it would be like us coming across archvillians. They would be NPC's.
And the other point that Dark and I have been trying to make...is why make their already paying customers of CoH, not only go and Buy Cov in order to get that content, but also ask them to pay more? UO, FFXI, SWG...you don't go out and buy the big expansion with the new content then have to create Another account and pay an additional fee to play it. You use your already exisiting account your already exisiting dollar amount nothing changes. And all three of them have major new content and could be considered 'stand-alone' games. And they could do as NCSoft/Cryptic want to do to their existing CoH customers, ask them to pay an additional fee just to get to that content and continue to play it.
As for what the big deal is and why it's sad when CoH players will still get updates to their game when CoV comes out...as I've tried to make clear before...is that there are going to be those out there that HAVE CoH that WANT CoV to play as well, and can't afford to purchase it or can't afford the additional fee. Heck there will probably be those out there with multiple CoH accounts, like Dark tried to point out, say one for each family member (example: Mother, Father, Son) so they can all play at once if they wanted...who will want to play CoV as well...so you are talking, 3 seperate accounts from my example, each with a monthly fee. Okay...following so far? Now they want CoV, so instead of just 3 seperate accounts with monthly fees for CoH, they are now looking at 6 accounts...3 for Coh and 3 for CoV each with fees associated with it.
Now I know what some out there reading this is going to think. 'Well if they can afford that many accounts, then they can just cancel some to take the others' On that note...lets say you who are reading this has a lvl 50 character that you've worked hard on building. Are you going to be so willing to give up that beloved character and cancel that account...delete that character just to switch to CoV? Most will say no, though I'm sure there will be some that play CoH that will cancel their accounts and change to just CoV and vice versa.
That isn't the point...the point is for those of us that have multiple accounts and want CoV, or even multiple CoV's, we shouldn't be asked to create and be charged for new Accounts. Cryptic/NCSoft should have it all linked together, so that my login name for CoH can be used to open CoV. No...the characters won't be the same, but still..one account. And no additional fees.
And on a last note since I seem to be going on way longer than I had planned. I know that we won't know if there will be an additional fee, let alone if there is, what amount it will be. I'm sry, not even Clint whom thinks that he is Mr. know-it-all can say. He can only guess or assume or hope or even quote what officials have hinted at before. Until Pre-Orders come out, or until Cryptic/NCSoft make an official announcement, we wont know.
So that is the last I'm saying about additional costs. I, unlike others, am patient to wait for the official word to see what it will be, if anything. The main thing that Dark was trying to say and I agreed with, I just stated above.
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I am going to Comment on Mars' post even though I said I wouldn't be posting anymore. Only because he has been complimentary of my posts.
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Looking solely at the method of delivery is, IMO, an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at things. Don't look at how it is delivered, look at the content that is being received. Like I mentioned above, patches do not do the following:
1 - Raise the level cap
2 - Give a new zone (The Hollows)
3 - Give another new zone (Striga)
4 - Implement PvP
In addition, like I mentioned above, Cryptic/NCSoft is trying a new method of delivering major updates to their customers. For free!!
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Okay...sigh..going to try to explain this one more time for the small minded people out there that can't seem to grasp this concept.
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While I cannot speak for all, I can say I stop reading anyone's post when they write this kind of arrogant and insulting nonsense...
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I am going to Comment on Mars' post even though I said I wouldn't be posting anymore. Only because he has been complimentary of my posts.
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Looking solely at the method of delivery is, IMO, an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at things. Don't look at how it is delivered, look at the content that is being received. Like I mentioned above, patches do not do the following:
1 - Raise the level cap
2 - Give a new zone (The Hollows)
3 - Give another new zone (Striga)
4 - Implement PvP
In addition, like I mentioned above, Cryptic/NCSoft is trying a new method of delivering major updates to their customers. For free!!
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Okay...sigh..going to try to explain this one more time for the small minded people out there that can't seem to grasp this concept.
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And yet you come back to me with a comment like the above...
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WoW, World of Warcraft if some don't know, Has patch day on Tuesdays. Patch days can consist of anything from updating code, or fixing bugs...to implimenting brand new areas. Yes..this is a "patch" that they put in that can sometimes add brand new areas.
About a month ago, maybe a bit more, it was Battlegrounds and a few more new end-game instances. Instance being zones to anyone who hasn't played it. About a week or two ago, it was another new end game area as well as a new...hmm...reward area is all I can think of to call it. These were all done by patching.
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OK. Having never played WoW (although it is sitting at home, unopened waiting for a better computer) thanks for the explanation. So they are following the same model as CoH (for now). I think that we will have to wait longer before we see if they (WoW) are following the model of CoH (free expansions) or EQ ($$$ for expansion)
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<snip>
What Dark and I are trying to explain to you all, whom seem to ignore the actual words and in your brain Assume what we are trying to say, is this. And don't get me wrong, this is a failing of anyone online.
CoV is basically an expansion to CoH. Anyone not having CoH can buy it, and still have access to CoH areas, even though their character is a Villian. No..not all areas...but they get most everything. This isn't a 'unique' concept since many online games do the same thing, they just don't try to convince their players that this is unique and different and that it's a totally different game.
If CoV was a different game, then those who purchase CoV and play Villians would not be able to interact with CoH in any form. They would have their own servers. They may have the same maps, but someone playing a Hero will not come face to face with someone playing a Villian. If they came across 'heroes' it would be like us coming across archvillians. They would be NPC's.
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But you and Dark can't get is that previously, there was only black and white. There were games (with expansions) and new games. The new game couldn't interact with the old game. Cryptic/NCSoft is breaking that mold by releasing CoV (which is a new game in that you don't need to have CoH to play CoV) and having players with it be able to interact with players in CoH. The fcat that you don't need to have CoH to play CoV automatically means it isn't an expansion. An expansion, be definition, builds on the foundation game. The foundation game is required to play it. The same way that, for EQ, you need to have EQ installed to play OoW or DoN.
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And the other point that Dark and I have been trying to make...is why make their already paying customers of CoH, not only go and Buy Cov in order to get that content, but also ask them to pay more? UO, FFXI, SWG...you don't go out and buy the big expansion with the new content then have to create Another account and pay an additional fee to play it. You use your already exisiting account your already exisiting dollar amount nothing changes. And all three of them have major new content and could be considered 'stand-alone' games. And they could do as NCSoft/Cryptic want to do to their existing CoH customers, ask them to pay an additional fee just to get to that content and continue to play it.
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Don't forget that CoV will have all of its own servers, support staff, CSR and all of that. It only makes sense to have it be paid for seperately. But I guess this is one of the (many) areas where we will have to agree to disagree. The fact that you see it as an expansion means that your PoV is diametrically opposed to mine. Of course, the fact that my position is the same as that of the developers means that my position has a bit more legitimacy attached to it...
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As for what the big deal is and why it's sad when CoH players will still get updates to their game when CoV comes out...as I've tried to make clear before...is that there are going to be those out there that HAVE CoH that WANT CoV to play as well, and can't afford to purchase it or can't afford the additional fee.
<snip>
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Have to make priorities. Just because people aren't willing to pay doesn't mean that Cryptic is making a bad decision. But, once again, this comes down to difference of opinions. You think you are right, I think I am. Once again, the devs seem to be leaning towards my side right now.
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That isn't the point...the point is for those of us that have multiple accounts and want CoV, or even multiple CoV's, we shouldn't be asked to create and be charged for new Accounts. Cryptic/NCSoft should have it all linked together, so that my login name for CoH can be used to open CoV. No...the characters won't be the same, but still..one account. And no additional fees.
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As you mention below, there is very little information that has been given out. The devs have said that they would like the increase to be free, but that realistically (to cover additional hardware and HR costs) is likely to be minimal ($1-$5) if you have both. There is also no info on whether getting CoH and CoV will give you a second account name or if it will be the same for both. Personally, it is a small enough detail (to me, obviously it is a big deal for you) that most people won't worry about it at all.
editted to add: I should also point out that your disparaging comments towards Clintonian do him a great disservice. there isn't anybody that has done as much towards educating and gathering information on CoV than he has. The information that he has presented here is information that has been obtained from developer interviews, posts by developers and PMs from developers.
Ok, for the people thinking CoV is an expansion, uninstall CoH, install CoV when it comes out. You'll be able to play CoV without even using ONE line of code from CoH, but you will not be able to play CoH. With other game expansions, they add to an EXISTING game. CoV adds another game entirely, that can interact with the first. Would you prefer CoV to NOT interact with CoH? Would you rather just be limited to PvE options? I have no respect for obtuse people like you, because you go out of your way to find something wrong with a good thing. Now, the devs have said they hope for a $3-5 increase to a subscription fee, if you have both games, to pay for the extra employees they'll have to run CoV. That's where a good deal of your CoH account goes, too. Expansions to games like EQ rarely need new employees to run them. CoV is an, "expanshalone," where it can be used as a stand-alone, OR as an expansion to CoH. So, anyone harping on that fact does NOT HAVE TO BUY IT. So, I'm going to ask all of the people that are upset about having to pay a small fee for CoV to leave this thread, before it degenerates into a childish flame war. Buy CoV, or don't buy it, I couldn't care less. Just stop whining about having to pay for 88 new character slots (8 characters on the villain versions of the 11 servers).
[B]The Once and Future Official Minister of Awesome[/B]
[I]And don't you forget it.[/I]
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Mars' 
WoW and CoH are following each others' examples I would say, which is why I love both games equally.
Anyway...besides that, all I wanted to say was nice to bat the opinions around but sadly, the reason I don't often post on forums is because when two intellectuals converse back and forth, someone reading has to put in their...I'll call it two-cents for politeness sake...and try to stir up trouble or react to what was posted in a bad way...as has happened now. Which is why I hadn't wanted to respond earlier.
As such, happy hunting in CoH...and when you finally are able to get WoW installed, I hope you enjoy the game as much as I do. In fact, to prove there are no hard feelings, which there never was but regardless... let me know when you get there and I'll show ya around though you'd have to pick my server 
As for my comment concerning Clinton, I wasnt saying he hasn't provided info for the forum community to read. But alas, till CoV is officially ready for release, anything that is said is just .. hmm.. not speculation because some does come from resources..but everything is subject to change. Even if said info comes from the Dev's...everything is subject to change until CoV is ready for release...and heck...as with any online game, things are always subject to change after it's released. That is the appeal with online games, nothing is constant, nothing is ever the same.. things are always happening and changing.
All-in-all, a great third post except for this line:
Okay...sigh..going to try to explain this one more time for the small minded people out there that can't seem to grasp this concept.
Nice. Because it's all about readers being lummoxes and not the writer being obtuse or incomplete in his rhetoric - or people having an honest difference of opinion. Just saying.
About a month ago, maybe a bit more, it was Battlegrounds and a few more new end-game instances. Instance being zones to anyone who hasn't played it. About a week or two ago, it was another new end game area as well as a new...hmm...reward area is all I can think of to call it. These were all done by patching.
These were major updates..major expansions if you will.
Yes, this was understood all along. I think it's awesome that the latest manifestation of a popular franchise is capitalized enough to be able to roll out updates so often. If CoH had moved a couple of million retail units, I'd expect it to do the same. Thus begins the building of the argument that CoH/CoV is niche audience game that does not have the capitalization nor the revenue stream to support doing things just like WoW. I'm starting to get it that you don't understand that CoH has one tenth the subscription base of WoW and therefore doesn't have the flexibility or funding to do everything that bigger games do. Is that your fault or my fault? No. But that's the situation and nothing's gonna change it anytime soon, because a quality game is important but people just seem naturally inclined to play wizards & warriors or sci-fi shooters more than anything else.
What Dark and I are trying to explain to you all, whom seem to ignore the actual words and in your brain Assume what we are trying to say, is this. And don't get me wrong, this is a failing of anyone online.
CoV is basically an expansion to CoH. Anyone not having CoH can buy it, and still have access to CoH areas, even though their character is a Villian. No..not all areas...but they get most everything.
You lost us again, and it's not about our cognitive dissonance. CoV is set in a seperate zone cluster cut off from CoH. CoV subscribers will have to buy CoH to PvP against heroes and will not have access to the current CoH zones regardless, though I did read recently that one CoH PvP content zone is opening up. The ATs and powersets of CoH are unique to CoH and unavailable to CoV subscribers, though a fair chunk of the individual powers are shared (A fire blast is a fire blast is a fire blast...). A lot of the game mechanics will be the same. The graphics engine has more options, but is essentially the same. It has the same lack of crafting (thank gawd). I acknowledge this. I'm not crazy.
Saying that buying CoV gets you 'most everything' that CoH has, however, is such a superficial and broad statement. It's almost as broad as saying that all MMOs are the same game. Sorta true in a very big-picture perspective, sorta not when you dig a little deeper.
If CoV was a different game, then those who purchase CoV and play Villians would not be able to interact with CoH in any form. They would have their own servers. They may have the same maps, but someone playing a Hero will not come face to face with someone playing a Villian. If they came across 'heroes' it would be like us coming across archvillians. They would be NPC's.
I'm so lost now. Unless I've totally misread all the articles, previews, and dev posts for over a year now, what you just described is very close to what is actually going to be released. So by your definition now, CoV is a different game.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeee!! !!!!
As for what the big deal is and why it's sad when CoH players will still get updates to their game when CoV comes out...as I've tried to make clear before...is that there are going to be those out there that HAVE CoH that WANT CoV to play as well, and can't afford to purchase it or can't afford the additional fee.
I can't afford to play CoH/CoV and WoW and MxO (at least my girlfriend put the kibosh on it). Feel sorry for me, yet? No? You shouldn't anyway. I don't really feel sorry for people who can't afford to play even just CoH. It's just a game.
On that note...lets say you who are reading this has a lvl 50 character that you've worked hard on building. Are you going to be so willing to give up that beloved character and cancel that account... delete that character just to switch to CoV? Most will say no, though I'm sure there will be some that play CoH that will cancel their accounts and change to just CoV and vice versa.
Why in Yahweh's cousin's name are you deleting characters to play CoV? Are you insane? Cryptic's servers will hold onto those characters in their database for years so you can pick them back up whenever you feel like it. Swap back and forth between - by your definition - the different games monthly, quarterly, yearly. If you want to switch between the games on a daily or weekly basis, though, you'll be dinged for the $0-5 extra.
That isn't the point...the point is for those of us that have multiple accounts and want CoV, or even multiple CoV's, we shouldn't be asked to create and be charged for new Accounts. Cryptic/NCSoft should have it all linked together, so that my login name for CoH can be used to open CoV. No...the characters won't be the same, but still..one account. And no additional fees.
This a fair point. I'd probably rather that scenario as well, all things being equal. I refer back to my earlier point that this game, while not being made a poor company in need of charity, is not being made by company better capitalized with a more generous revenue stream.
I'm sry, not even Clint whom thinks that he is Mr. know-it-all can say.
I'm sure I come off as a know-it-all sometimes, but at least I document where I'm coming from with citations. I think I'm way better than the average poster as far as declaring where I'm making suppositions. I'm eager to gobble up new info and reformulate my opinions.
He can only guess or assume or hope or even quote what officials have hinted at before. Until Pre-Orders come out, or until Cryptic/NCSoft make an official announcement, we wont know.
'He can only quote'? Damn me for trying, I guess. Wait a sec. Don't tell me you're trying to make an obtuse statement that they plan on doubling the fee for CoH+CoV. Please tell me you haven't gone completely round the bend. Now you've just made me punch-drunk silly. I'm grinning now.
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As for my comment concerning Clinton, I wasnt saying he hasn't provided info for the forum community to read. But alas, till CoV is officially ready for release, anything that is said is just .. hmm.. not speculation because some does come from resources..but everything is subject to change. Even if said info comes from the Dev's...everything is subject to change until CoV is ready for release...and heck...as with any online game, things are always subject to change after it's released. That is the appeal with online games, nothing is constant, nothing is ever the same.. things are always happening and changing.
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You're right. I give up. Not on the game. Science. It's all just theories anyway. Evolution, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, genetics, medicine. You can make citations and tinker around a bit, but "things are always happening and changing." You just can't put any faith in it.
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7 : a minor usually temporary correction or modification in a computer program
-- MW Online
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And the other point that Dark and I have been trying to make...is why make their already paying customers of CoH, not only go and Buy Cov in order to get that content, but also ask them to pay more? UO, FFXI, SWG...you don't go out and buy the big expansion with the new content then have to create Another account and pay an additional fee to play it.You use your already exisiting account your already exisiting dollar amount nothing changes. And all three of them have major new content and could be considered 'stand-alone' games. And they could do as NCSoft/Cryptic want to do to their existing CoH customers, ask them to pay an additional fee just to get to that content and continue to play it.
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But, they have a different set of devs, it IS a different game. You get upset that Pokemon Blue and Red had to be bought seperately too?
And DO NOT mention FFIX - so much promise, until you learn they ignored EVERY other MMO out there and made many of the same mistakes, and more, that other MMOs have made. They should pay US to play that (Ahh crap, hit the windows key! Now I got to restart the game and log back in!)
ANd for what it is worth, the stuff that CoH gets out of CoV mearly needs you to have the code connected to your account (building SG bases, and the PVP zones.)
And frankly, last I read, I did not need UO to play SWG or FFIX, etc.
Second, do they release substantial content updates wihtout charging for them seperately? No. CoV and CoH do. The minor increase to fees is because each game has it's own set of devs.
And while it's possible Heroes will get some missions in the rogue isles, and villians in Paragon City, they will be outdoor/indoor instaces, they will not be able to walk down main street and see PC Villians (unless it is a PvP mission) And the only actual areas that Villains and Heroes will both be able to access is the FOUR pvp zones, nothing else.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Here you go folks I went to someone who'd most likely know what I'm asking and got the awnseres I much better than wHat I got from here. So here it is
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Hi Statesman,
I dont mean to bother you but I have a question or two concerning the upcomming City of Villians that I feel you may beable to awnser instead of Random folk in the forums.
Why is it that CoV and CoH will be two seperate accounts? I personally dont want to have to have 2 accounts for one Heroic game. I would much rather have my original account upgraded to COV standards than creating a new one. MY reasons for this are my husband and I both play COH and as he's stated to me he doesnt plan on getting two more accounts for us to beable to have COV. So is it definit that cCOV and COH are going to be seperate? I'v posted this in the forums, anyhow. Would apricate some sort of reply from a topguy thank you in advance.
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And Statesman responded to me
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We haven't announced ANYTHING regarding the way accounts work - so anything you read is rumor only.
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So just by statesman responding to its rumor only perhaps It will be how i'm hoping when COV comes out. Would be Nice.
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And frankly, last I read, I did not need UO to play SWG or FFIX, etc.
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Umm last I knew You woudlnt need UO to play SWG or FFIX, because they arent even the same game.... think about it.
Anyhow Later Folks I'm done!
My Supergroup is Ghost Legion, Insane Crusaders of Ghost Legion, Ghost Legion of Liberty, My Villiangroup is Shadow Wraiths.
My Global is @Darklite and @DazzlerDarklite
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Here you go folks I went to someone who'd most likely know what I'm asking and got the awnseres I much better than wHat I got from here. So here it is
And Statesman responded to me
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We haven't announced ANYTHING regarding the way accounts work - so anything you read is rumor only.
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So just by statesman responding to its rumor only perhaps It will be how i'm hoping when COV comes out. Would be Nice.
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It would be nice. I hope CoV costs zero extra because it will less of a hassle. If it costs only a dollar more to play CoH+CoV, then you are still likely to see separate lines for CoH and CoV on your PlayNC account page. I fail to see why it is such an unbearable bureaucratic burden to manage an extra line on the PlayNC page, but hey, maybe it's the straw on the camel's back for some people.
I would like to clarify something. On things like this, I preface early and often that something "may" be done a certain way, or that something is "likely" based on previous experience with this dev team and other games in general. I'd like to think that I deal in conjecture, rather than rumor-mongering. Conjecture isn't great, but in the face of "We haven't announced ANYTHING", it is something to chat about.
As far as the game client goes, maybe they'll put the effort into redoing the thing so you have the option to access either game from the same client. I will be pleasantly surprised if it happens.
I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather pay $1-5 extra for CoV+CoH instead of getting half hearted updates for both.
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All of the major updates which have been released so far (Issues 1 to 5) would qualify as expansions in any other MMORPG (like EQ) and we would have had to pay for them
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I dont consider the updates as an exspansion to me if you are buying a CD/DVD that should be an exspansion.
I'm probably being a pain but I've played other MMORPG's and this is the first one thats run this way to me.
Anyhow here's some examples of what I mean. First there was Ultima Online (which came in 1997) than came ultima online renaissance, I didnt join the legacy of Ultima Online till lord blackthorn's revenge and had only baught that CD which came with the previous other exspansions. Than came age of shadows and Now out is samurai empire. You had a choice wether or not to buy the new versions and if you chose not to you could still play the other ones, infact I have many friends who still play off the older versions and not the new exspansions. If you purchased a newer exspansion you got all the benifits that came with that one and the previous games before. The older Versions gave you "Patches" (Issues 1-5 for COH) that had afew fixes for various things along with some add-ons they gave you.
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AFAIK (and I am not an expert) CoV will be the first game that allows you to play the bad guy.
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Only way COV will be the first game that allows you to play a bad guy is because of the New AT's connected with the game. Ultima Online you can be a bad guy in a land called Felucca, To become a bad guy you would "defeat" the good guys. By getting 5 murder counts from killing "Blues"the goodguys you became a badguy untill you workd off those counts. While being a bad guy you were unable to go to any of the good guy lands.
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Actually, by doing it this way, they are ensuring a much higher subscription base
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So they want higher subscription base and show what? that theres 100people playing the game with 2 accounts each so theres a BIG O'200 Subscribers? That doesnt make sence if you ask me. Bascially that just sounds like they're looking at the $$$$ instead of what they really should be looking at.
My Supergroup is Ghost Legion, Insane Crusaders of Ghost Legion, Ghost Legion of Liberty, My Villiangroup is Shadow Wraiths.
My Global is @Darklite and @DazzlerDarklite