Tired of the whiney controllers, think Ill check other forums...
Controllers are not gimped. Use you brains people! I play several different types of controllers[yes mind, grav, kin, earth, ice, illusion, etc. and they are all different levels, and they are all quite viable. Some are tougher than others, some are more kick butt than others. Play smart be cunning, dont sit there expecting them to hand you stuff on a silver plate...
Maybe its not the controller powersets, but how you slot them, and more importantly HOW YOU PLAY THEM....
Thank you, I am not here all week....
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even though i'm long past the frustration stage I would be willing to have my controller nerfed somewhat if it meant making a trade off so the first 32 levels wouldn't be such hell!
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Says the guy who HAS is Ill/Rad at 47. Me, I'm still waitin on phantasms and would just as soon not see them nerfed before I have my turn at the uber table thank-you-very-much.
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even though i'm long past the frustration stage
I would be willing to have my controller nerfed somewhat
if it meant making a trade off so the first 32 levels wouldn't be such hell!
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Says the guy who HAS is Ill/Rad at 47. Me, I'm still waitin
on phantasms and would just as soon not see them nerfed before I have my turn at the uber table
thank-you-very-much.
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Oh yeah I agree with that one, I'm havin' way
to much fun with my controller to see the guy get weak on me at this point.
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As for gravity, the other control set that needs help.
-Perhaps reduce the base recharge of many of their powers might help. Sure Distortion Field is a nice hold, but you really need lots of accuracy and recharges to make it useful.
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GDF needs the same amount of accuracy and recharges as any of the other area of effect holds. The problem with most Gravity powers isn't the recharge time, it's the godawful long activation times across the board.
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-I suppose boosting the pet a bit might be good too.
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Why? Singularities are one of the best pets in the game. Singularity, GDF and GD are the three powers in the Gravity set that really need no changes.
Most of the problems with Gravity can be dealt with using relatively minor adjustments. Activation times are the biggest issue. Add a longish disorient to Propel to make it more of a control power. Remove the knockback from Wormhole for better placement (right now the only way to try to overcome Wormhole knockback is to GD the target first, which is rather inefficient).
The only power I think needs replacement is Dimension Shift. Replace it with something like a ground targetted Slow + End Drain field. Give it a 10 second duration with -5 End per second. Heavily slotting end drain could make a power like this pretty nasty, but it woud be pretty situational since a lot of villians don't rely a lot on end. The slow aspect would always be handy though.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
To go back to what some of the earlier posts in the thread have said;
Ill/Fire controllers are really not overpowered in my opinion.
They only look overpowered because of the poor post lvl32 powers the other types of Controllers get in comparison to Ill/Fire -who's powers are right and balanced the rest of the way up to 50.
I started my Illusion Controller when the first game started and I think I'm right when I say it's had a few nerfs along the way, as have the Fire Controllers.
The long road to 32 is just that. It's the same for all controllers. if you're Fire, Illusion, Earth, Mind etc. All Controllers sets barring Ill/Fire definitely need looking at post 32, but I wish people would stop calling for nerfs to Ill/Fire.
The other Controllers groups need pulling up to Fire/Ill levels and not the other way around.
More specifically into Illusion Controllers, (because I'm obviously more familiar with this type).
Illusion Controllers sacrifice a lot of their Controlling when it comes to holds. In return they get several pets. If the Pets were nerfed, the Illusion set would be left with 1 area hold, and some low damage dealing pets.
The pets are the Illusion sets form of Control.
Troadan.
Narcissus - lvl 50 Ill/Emp Controller
Troadan - Defender
Victory Server
As a tank player (it's my main at 32), I must say I LOVE all the changes devs made for us. I really don't think, overall, a tanker has any right to complain about the changes made to them. They were all mentioned above, but as a Stone Tanker/Super Strength guy, I gotta say, LOVE the stackable armors as well as the change to their graphics. Punchvoke is great, and the fixed caps are great too. The Rage problem is only because there's such a letdown. Rage is fun but then you have to suffer from end loss, no attack ability for ten seconds, AND weakened defense. Yikes.
Now to States and the devs:
I realize I could have included this within my previous post, but I felt it deserved its own slot for better attention and to avoid the possibility of it being looked over as yet more debate on MC opinions I don't agree with.
I would like to take this opportunity to beg of you to leave Mind Control as it is! Though all Controller primaries are built on the basic premise of locking down enemy mobs, Mind Control is unique in that it is the only Controller primary dedicated to truly controlling foes.
The build requires patience that few people seem to have. Whereas other builds seem to concern themselves with locking down mobs only to the extent that the enemy can't attack back while the Controller gets off an offensive attack or two, Mind Control has very few powers that are designed with purely offensive intent. Some, like Mesmerize, Domination and Total Domination can serve that purpose on the side, but their primary role is to disable the target's ability to react.
Partially because of this, Mind Controllers are few and far between in the game, and I personally prefer it that way. Our build is not for everyone. This is not to say there is anything logistically better about Mind Control than any of the other Controller primaries, nor necessarily anything worse. In my opinion, Mind Control is for those who understand that true power cannot always be seen. Some of the greatest figures in history are recognized as such not because they had the strongest arm or the biggest sword, but because they had the greatest mind.
On their own, Mind Controllers can't accomplish much in comparison to other ATs/builds, and even in a group they can't possibly hope to bring the same offense, defense or support to the table as can other ATs or Controller builds. However, no other build can match them for pure control over enemies.
This is both their only and their greatest strength. Making Mind Controllers more offense-oriented, whether through raising the damage dealt by their attacks or giving them pets, takes away from the uniqueness of the Mind Control build.
There will always be those who raise a fuss when it comes to their attention that their AT/build can't do something as well as another, and to them I would say if they wish to be damage-dealers, they should make a Fire Controller or roll up a Scrapper. It cannot be stated enough; Mind Control is the only available option to those who want to truly control their foes rather than simply disable them long enough to arrest them.
Thus, I implore with the development staff to not be swayed by voices of dissent coming from those who wish to change the Mind Control build into something it's not. I understand that everyone has their own playstyle, and that if someone doesn't enjoy my way of playing the Mind Control build that doesn't mean they should have to scrap their character; however if they wish to play their character in a manner intended for an entirely different build or AT, then I don't believe it's unfair to expect them to reroll that character as the appropriate build.
Your point is well taken, but don't you at least think the accuracy penalty is a bit harsh? Speaking as a fellow MC, I see other ATs, even other controllers, eat +3s for breakfast, and I'm worthless against +4s/+5s because at that level spread my AoEs can't hit the broadside of a Giant Monster at point blank range. I think our abundance of control (not that we're really THAT far ahead; actually I'd say our piteously long-recharge area Confuse and two "soft" holds are handily trumped by Fire/Earth's Immob/Disorient combo, especially with Storm secondary) should at least be made useful in the situations where it actually matters. As it is we're penalized more than any other set simply by virtue of having one more AoE, which not only takes significant offense from us Vs. other sets but also offers little in return even compared to the rest of our own set.
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Why? Singularities are one of the best pets in the game. Singularity, GDF and GD are the three powers in the Gravity set that really need no changes.
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Completely disagree.
Singularities aren't good pets. They are crutches. Without them the Gravity Control set would be so utterly useless at crowd controlling AND damage no one would ever play it.
None of the other Controller powersets (with pets) would trade their level 32 damage pet for a crowd control version. They already have several forms of offense friendly crowd control and are viable crowd controllers before 32. Anything else would be in excess.
Open mouth, insert foot. No post of mine would be complete without it.
I actually wasn't even aware of an accuracy penalty. Sure, there are the occasional times when I miss a hold that could have saved me a defeat, but overall they seem rather few and far between. It probably helps that--though the vast majority of those I find fall into this category--I rarely stay on a team that doesn't work well together. As you can imagine, I spend a lot of time spamming LFTs in the broadcast channel.
The point I was trying to make was that MC seems to be the only controller powerset that focuses almost exclusively on actual control rather than the "lock mob down long enough to allow me to get off an attack or two in the meantime" style other builds seem to be geared toward. I don't want MC to do a lot of damage, as I don't feel that's what the set is really about. As far as I'm concerned, offensive capability is a virtual triviality in MC; we're just there to lock down the baddie, it's up to the other ATs/builds to take him out after that.
Anyway, you've got a good point. I suppose next time I should do some reading up on the actual numbers between the Controller builds before opening my big mouth, but I wouldn't advise holding your breath until I actually do so.
The accuracy penalty referred to is the same for all controller AoEs. In most cases it's a -20% penalty. Every controller AoE has this penalty to accuracy, the difference I believe he was referrring to is the fact that while other controllers will miss with it, they have pets to beat up whatever in a short amount of time, so the miss, and even havng to hit, or more just precautions and the actual need to control is not as great.
Mind only has 2 AoEs that draw aggro (Terrify and Total Domination, Terrify only having a -10% penalty). The 4 Minute recharge on Mass Confusion, in addition to its penalty to accuracy, just makes it feel fairly untasteful. I don't want a pet for Mind control either, it doesn't fit the theme of the set. And I love Mass Hypnosis too much, if they get a pet that will just break sleeps and not quite finish one enemy off before moving to the next (like every other pet out there) then it won't really help the set that much.
But then would it really be fair to make the penalty to Mind's control less than that of all other control power sets? I'm not so sure. Yes you have to rely on your ability to control more than any other controller, but does that really mean you don't deserve the same penalties as the other controllers?
But then, what will it do for you? Allow you to slot another recharge or duration in Mass Confusion rather than another accuracy? Would that really help that much with all of Mind's supposed problems? I don't think so.
THe only thing that I want would be a reduction in the recharge of Mass Confusion. A minor tweak that makes a power pop slightly more often. Levitate could probably be looked at as well, as I've never seen the value in it. Yes, if you absolutely must solo with your mind controller it could help you with damage, and sure they could up that. But dealing damage is obviously not the strong suit of any controller, that goes to pets or team mates.
Thanks for the information, and well said. I was also unaware of the 4-minute recharge on Mass Confusion. Though nothing could ever convince me MC isn't the best controller primary out there, I must admit that detail does tarnish the image slightly. Four minutes is an obscenely long time when you need that power during a battle.
I think you've proposed a fair enough solution. Nothing drastic, just a slight reduction in the recharge time of the power to make up for the times when our teammates hear the familiar "Oh [censored]" immediately after powers decide to take a holiday.
I couldn't really comment on levitate either. In all honesty, I can only barely see how it fits into the MC build at all through a tenuous connection in that telekinesis and telepathy are both controlled by the mind. The devs could probably have gotten away with making two MC builds for controllers, one for telepathy and one for telekinesis, and it would have worked out fine.
Well, the gist of my argument is that Mind has 60% worth of penalties where Fire and Ice have 50%, Earth 40%, Gravity 30%, and Illusion 20%. It's our final power that brings the set out of line. Yes, we have an extra control with a bonus as well, but since it's a sleep and single-target, it feels like a raw deal. On top of this, Fire Imps, arguably already the most overpowered pet, get a HUGE accuracy BONUS. Now maybe AN Imp needs this, being a third-rate Scrapper, but a whole posse of them is a walking AoE nuke.
Speaking of nukes, why aren't Blasters and Scrappers penalized for using their best powers? Hell, Blasters get a bonus for their snipe and nuke, and Scrappers get increased Crit chance on their nastiest attacks. On top of this, almost every other non-Controller build has access to a self +Acc power, be it Build-Up, Aim, Targeting Drone, Focus, etc. MC or no, the penalty is a hobble shackled onto our class, and now that they've found a myriad of other ways to reduce our effectiveness, it ought to be removed altogether, and probably shifted the other way to boot. What will that do for me? It'll let me do my job in the situations where I'm actually in demand: missions set to Invincible with a large team, particularly if the mission owner is one level higher, as is often the case, and it will let me do this without slotting a third Accuracy SO. Two should be plenty already; it's more than anyone ELSE needs...
Just cause nobody says it to you, doesn't mean they don't think it, Blind. Seriously, after playing 2 blasters, 2 kheldians and a fire tanker, I know if a mind controller wants to try sleeping the whole group, fine, but I'm gonna wake them all up in half a second.
I'm a lvl36 Grav/FF controller and here is what I would like to see for pre-32 play.
1) Dimension Shift sucks - give me a real AoE hold. Give me the ability to increase gravity in an area so much that enemies can't even stand (Weight of the World).
2) If I can't get another hold then make crush/multiple crush slow powers (a suggestion that was posted earlier) like shiver. The fact that I can immobilize crowds isn't that big a deal if they can still use their ranged attacks.
3) Do something about propel.....the long animation and recharge time with the high endurance costs makes it barely worth using. I can do more DPS with lift than with propel and that's not right when propel is supposed to be our "damage" power.
4) More damage. I don't care how you do it or what you call it, cuz as I mentioned above.....Propel just isn't workin' for me.
This is my first and only MMORG (or whatever u call it) so I'm not sure how it's done in the world of fairies and elves and I don't care. If CoH has to break "tradition" and make contollers/summoners a little more powerful than other games then like Schwarzenegger says..."Do it!"
"Nerf me?!? Nerf you!!"
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I'm a lvl36 Grav/FF controller and here is what I would like to see for pre-32 play.
1) Dimension Shift sucks - give me a real AoE hold. Give me the ability to increase gravity in an area so much that enemies can't even stand (Weight of the World).
2) If I can't get another hold then make crush/multiple crush slow powers (a suggestion that was posted earlier) like shiver. The fact that I can immobilize crowds isn't that big a deal if they can still use their ranged attacks.
3) Do something about propel.....the long animation and recharge time with the high endurance costs makes it barely worth using. I can do more DPS with lift than with propel and that's not right when propel is supposed to be our "damage" power.
4) More damage. I don't care how you do it or what you call it, cuz as I mentioned above.....Propel just isn't workin' for me.
This is my first and only MMORG (or whatever u call it) so I'm not sure how it's done in the world of fairies and elves and I don't care. If CoH has to break "tradition" and make contollers/summoners a little more powerful than other games then like Schwarzenegger says..."Do it!"
"Nerf me?!? Nerf you!!"
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I dont think you need to make em more powerful. The fact is, many of us are happy with our powers. They might not be the most powerful, but i personally think that the controller Archtype is the most rewarding and versatile AT in the game. The reason people grind is because they want to experience new and better things. I think the controller pre32 grind is a MUST. Hell if there is a nerf, dont put it on the pets, put it in stuff that will hurt us more pre 32.(coming from someone with 2 controllers post 20 and pre 32 ATM)
I think when we get our pets, we finally feel complete as an archtype. we FINALLY feel like we can street hunt.
yes i know you gravs want some more dmg and hold powers, which i think you can use, but please pleasse dont nerf the rest of the controller ATs so that grav becomes even.
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I'm a lvl36 Grav/FF controller and here is what I would like to see for pre-32 play.
1) Dimension Shift sucks - give me a real AoE hold. Give me the ability to increase gravity in an area so much that enemies can't even stand (Weight of the World).
2) If I can't get another hold then make crush/multiple crush slow powers (a suggestion that was posted earlier) like shiver. The fact that I can immobilize crowds isn't that big a deal if they can still use their ranged attacks.
3) Do something about propel.....the long animation and recharge time with the high endurance costs makes it barely worth using. I can do more DPS with lift than with propel and that's not right when propel is supposed to be our "damage" power.
4) More damage. I don't care how you do it or what you call it, cuz as I mentioned above.....Propel just isn't workin' for me.
This is my first and only MMORG (or whatever u call it) so I'm not sure how it's done in the world of fairies and elves and I don't care. If CoH has to break "tradition" and make contollers/summoners a little more powerful than other games then like Schwarzenegger says..."Do it!"
"Nerf me?!? Nerf you!!"
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I dont think you need to make em more powerful. The fact is, many of us are happy with our powers. They might not be the most powerful, but i personally think that the controller Archtype is the most rewarding and versatile AT in the game. The reason people grind is because they want to experience new and better things. I think the controller pre32 grind is a MUST. Hell if there is a nerf, dont put it on the pets, put it in stuff that will hurt us more pre 32.(coming from someone with 2 controllers post 20 and pre 32 ATM)
I think when we get our pets, we finally feel complete as an archtype. we FINALLY feel like we can street hunt.
yes i know you gravs want some more dmg and hold powers, which i think you can use, but please pleasse dont nerf the rest of the controller ATs so that grav becomes even.
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Think there's been a misunderstanding. The points I made were just pertaining to grav controllers. And that quote in the end is just one of my sayings that I end my posts with, it was not meant as a call to nerf.
Woohoo! Time to show gravity controllers some love!
As for my fire and illusion brothers and sisters, sorry to say it but i think you all have another nerf coming . Both of you are obviously more uber than all other controller classes. (No, this is not a call for a nerf on fire and illusion!). I think the devs will want to have closer parity between all the controller classes. They certainly don't want mind, ice, earth and gravity being as powerful as fire and illusion, which can only mean a nerf is headed your way.
I know I would love a change in a few powers being a grav/kin controller. ATM I only have 4 of our main powers at 44. Crush, GD, GDF, and Sing. thats it. Nothing else really appeals to me as it is low damage or a death trap (crushing field). I would love to see a change in animation times like others have said, and even a rechagre time to GDF. It really bites watching other controllers lay down multiple aoe holds while I sit and wait for my GDF to get back. Give propel more damage would be a starter for me, change dimension shift to something like an ice slick for ice controllers and I would be a happy camper.
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I have nothing but optimism for these vaguely announced changes. Why? Because there is nothing they can do to make my Mind Controller any worse. It can only get better from here.
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I must be missing something here. All I hear is whining about how much Mind Control sucks and that we're totally nerfed. At the same time, at least on the Triumph Server, I'm seeing more Mind Controllers than ever by a huge margin. There must be something OK about this AT.
Also more Fire Tankers than you can shake a stick at, but that's another issue.
I'd like to not see nerfing and I'd like the damage discrepancies changed a bit through upping it for some of us. Yeah, taking 30 minutes to kill a even con Warhulk solo is a bit funky, but I'm OK with letting things lie as is for awhile. I think most controllers who get up in level a ways start loving this archetype in spite of its weaknesses. Mind control improved immensely when the fear change occurred. Maybe more good will come of this.
Just take a deep breath and be glad that you at least have a forum to try to influence the direction of your archetype. That could be worse.
Disk 50 Mind/FF
Dark Cover 33 FF/Dark
Disk Glints 22 PB
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Just cause nobody says it to you, doesn't mean they don't think it, Blind. Seriously, after playing 2 blasters, 2 kheldians and a fire tanker, I know if a mind controller wants to try sleeping the whole group, fine, but I'm gonna wake them all up in half a second.
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That's your decision to make. Just don't blame my lack of controlling when 2 seconds later they all gang up on and take you down in an instant.
I'm not talking about mobs my group can handle all at once, I'm talking about a mission with the difficulty slider set to invincible and a dozen deep purples just waiting to have a few uppity heroes for an afternoon snack.
I have been told off by people like you before, and my response every time is simply to leave the group and find someone else with whom I could enjoy playing the game. Because for those of us who barely know what DPS and max potential XP are, let alone care about them to the point of some seeing it as an unhealthy obsession, that's exactly what it is. A GAME.
Once I've laid down my hold, it's up to the others in the group to decide on what they feel is the best course of action. I've done my part, and I'm not going to stick around and try to save everyone's [censored] because one person can't adapt their suicide tactics to a different team.
Character progression and having the biggest numbers are nice, but those aren't the reasons I play. I play to relax and have fun with my friends, and I can do that regardless of which direction my XP bar is moving. It's your own loss if you can't.
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I know I would love a change in a few powers being a grav/kin controller. ATM I only have 4 of our main powers at 44. Crush, GD, GDF, and Sing. thats it. Nothing else really appeals to me as it is low damage or a death trap (crushing field). I would love to see a change in animation times like others have said, and even a rechagre time to GDF. It really bites watching other controllers lay down multiple aoe holds while I sit and wait for my GDF to get back. Give propel more damage would be a starter for me, change dimension shift to something like an ice slick for ice controllers and I would be a happy camper.
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No wormhole? Dude. That's such a fun power. Makes the DE a piece of cake. Turns auto-turrets into distant helium balloons. And it will be awful fun in PvP.
And we don't know the specifics of Dimension Shift as it relates to the PvP game yet either.
Right now, Gravity is probably the premier magnitude builder in the game. For example, our presence on a Hamidon raid counts as two and a half controllers because of our pets. Nobody locks down small groups of toughies like we do. 5 gravity controllers and you have perma-monster lockdown. Nobody else can say this.
And we have neat tricks, like wormhole. Like dimension shift.
I don't want the devs to take that away from us by changing singularities to non-holders and giving us an AoE disorient! All our set really needs is a touch more damage, probably in Propel (which is the dumbest power ever in my opinion).
The real problem in my mind is that the devs built the game in the opposite direction. Where we would be best in a 3-boss fight, the devs do not have situations like that available for us.
Remember that 2-boss fight in the carnie/rikti storyline? Two named bosses (i think a mentalist and a ringmistress) and a handful of other mobs. There was even another boss a distance behind that was likely to become aggroed. Our AT was best suited to handle that encounter. We were able to lock it all down before damage ensued. For the first time since lvl 32, we actually had a solo mission with an encounter that made us work, but we were able to beat it. I wonder how many scrappers would have died on that baby solo! But I never ran into an encounter like that again.
Point being, if the devs would just increase boss frequency in the high game and not always assume the best thing to do to make the game harder was to increase the number of minions, then our set would blossom.
So that's the problem--spawn design doesn't give us our spotlight. The other problem in my mind is that I'm a crazy person, but I'm sure you figured this out already.
Nah they won't be ganging up on me because, they'll be asleep again... permanently 
And no, it doesn't make me a suicidal player, I judge my tactics based on the team I'm in. If I see the tank doing a good job keeping aggro, I can use the area attacks a lot more, kill faster, get exp faster... see how that works?
I've been on many teams where the tanker couldn't keep aggro well and on those teams, I hold back on area attacks to keep myself from dying. And of course as a kheldian I have my own solution if the tanker isn't keeping aggro off me. I just go dwarf and I can survive almost anything. And then there's also Quantum Flight or Nebulous Form
Hmm, thought we were taliking about ways for making Controllers better as an AT... Maybe you're looking for the "Screw you Mind Controller I'm gonna wake them up while my team dies!" forum
oh zing
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As for mind control, some of their powers are pretty nifty, but in my opinion, not overly desirable to have in a team.
-First complaint is the experience penalty with confuse powers. Teams will shun that.
-Second is that sleep powers are useless in many teams, since you typically have a tank holding aggro when blasters or kheldians use AOE blasts.
-Third, mind controlling tends to slow down the progress of a team more than be useful. "Hey team wait here for a few minutes while I mind control those guys and reduce the exp reward for us."
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What was that another poster said? Something about "the folks most vocal about the shortcomings of MC are those who don't have MCs of their own?"
Yup, looks about right.
Speak for yourself there, Lady. I've never been turned down for a team due solely to having confuse among my repertoire of powers. That's only one of my abilities, and not the most team-oriented one. Confuse is best for soloing and softening up mobs without drawing aggro or doing the work yourself.
Nor have I ever been told my sleep powers are useless. In fact my teammates often come to rely on mass hypnosis.
And if I'm slowing down the team's progress any, I have yet to be told as much. Usually they're so grateful to have a controller who fully lives up to his AT's title that any potential shortcomings such as that are considered negligable at best, a fully acceptable compromise at worst.