Kheldians are not archetypes
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2004-11-10 09:21 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Maybe the dev's are being creative and trying to make archetypes that aren't in comics yet.
Yes this game is based on comics but that doesn't mean that everything has to be from comics
But until the new powersets are reviled it could swing both ways. You might be right. Only the powers will tell.
Honestly rehdjac, I think it is still a little to soon to be making such assumptions. Albeit well thought out and worded.
Really though, until the archtypes are uploaded to the testserver will we all be able get an idea of what they are capable of exactly.
I say give them (DEVs) the benefit of the doubt.
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Honestly rehdjac, I think it is still a little to soon to be making such assumptions. Albeit well thought out and worded.
Really though, until the archtypes are uploaded to the testserver will we all be able get an idea of what they are capable of exactly.
I say give them (DEVs) the benefit of the doubt.
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Yeha that's pretty much the concession of my last paragraph. Can't say I'm overly optimistic, but I'm rooting for them not against.
Still, it bears mention.
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Maybe the dev's are being creative and trying to make archetypes that aren't in comics yet.
Yes this game is based on comics but that doesn't mean that everything has to be from comics
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Yeah, that could be the case but consider: Statesman has said he's disappointed with the Tank archetype specifically because it doesn't model the comics like archetypes are supposed to do. Yes, Tanks have value in a group (debateable depending on who you ask), but they are not following the comic book model of the game and are therefore fundamentally flawed.
Now Cryptic introduces two "archetypes" that will again have no genre specific basis when there is already archetypes in game that need themeatic help (Tanks) and archetypes that should be in game (examples I gave, maybe Powerhouse, Mastermind etc...) but aren't.
I would much rather see time spent on fixing the existing archetype / genre discrepency with Tanks or creating new archetypes actually based on theme, than push the number of playable styles that fail to mimic comics to 3 of 7.
I guess we'll see.
See like I said, Cryptic surprises me. As poor as I think this attempt at adding new archetypes is, these Epic Power Pools sound great.
As long as they keep them low key in power (think Stealth and Flurry not Haste and Provoke) they will be golden and a welcome boon for those in their 40s. Way cool.
wow, you have no idea what the new AT"s are all about yet except one is probably more on defensive side and one on offensive side. So why trash something you have no idea about? I'm excited for both AT's and im racing to get my main to lvl 50 just so i can play as one of the new AT's. i KNOW that no matter what they consist of that i will love these AT's just based on how well the DEV's have designe dthe game so far.
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wow, you have no idea what the new AT"s are all about yet except one is probably more on defensive side and one on offensive side. So why trash something you have no idea about? I'm excited for both AT's and im racing to get my main to lvl 50 just so i can play as one of the new AT's. i KNOW that no matter what they consist of that i will love these AT's just based on how well the DEV's have designe dthe game so far.
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I didn't "trash" them, I said they weren't archetypes, and gave well thought out reasons why.
I mentioned that there are a number of archetypes common to the genre and having the requisite power level to be considered "epic" that could have been developed instead.
I also allowed for the fact that right now we have imperfect information.
Blaster,scrapper,defender,controller,tanker. These are 5 generic archetypes found in comic books. The word archetype was pretty well applied here, and it avoids the use of the word "class."
However, Statesman wanted to add 2 more classes, but really, things hint that they're blending roles of pre-existing archetypes so that they can't really live up to the word "Archetype" on their own. However, the word "Archetype" has become the equivalent word for the "Class" you choose at character creation.
He could say, magic, science, natural, tech, mutation...Kheldian. That doesn't fit either, and origins don't really affect powers in this game. Archetype is the word that fits best.
The key descriptive part of epic AT is "epic". In the interviews, Statesman zeroed in on the word "epic" to have to do with story. As well as being powerful in epic proportions, these new classes/epic ATs will be tied into the story as they are made available. And as you can see from the articles on the main page. The Kheldians are now tied directly into the story.
So when you have 5 generic archetypes, and 5 origins. When you add a epic class, what do you call it? Just say class and people will respond, "Come again? Is that just another word for Alien?" It's a little less confusing this way. He uses the word archetype to convey to the CoH player that this will determine what powers are being made available to the player.
No, Kheldians aren't Archetypes, they're Epic Archetypes.
Just as Epic Power Pools are different from normal power pools, Epic ATs are different from normal ATs.
Isn't this just arguing semantics? What difference does it really make if we call them archetypes or classes?
Alien is the origin, as normal. The Peacebringer or Warshade is simply the AT itself. They define how they are played. Statesman said that their endurance is based on their team, thus its simple to conclude that the Peacebringers (who belive in voluntary merging) draw endurance from their team and thus are team based. The Warshade (who belive in taking over bodies) would naturally draw their endurance from everyone thus making them good for soloing.
The difference is how they are used, I understand how you dislike how these ATs aren't generically titled but don't assume that this means you have your hero pigeon holed into a role. Just because you have a Warbringer AT doesn't mean you HAVE to be a certain way. Just as you don't HAVE to be a Keldarian at all.
Besides, you're not supposed to be stealing copyrighted ideas for your characters. Its against the EULA infact.
Here's some food for thought though for the rest of you. Does it means you have an evil character if they're a Warshade? Not really. Consider for a moment there are two sides to this story, perhaps the warshades are a breed of Keldarian who need to merge with a body to survive, simple morality then conflicts with the Peacebringers who don't think merging of any kind is right. They naturally don't need to merge or accept that they'll die if they don't.
Is is wrong to want to live? Its indeed a grey line so just because you're a warshade doesn't mean you're an Anti-hero or a villain... maybe you just didn't want to die.
Kheldian endurance is drawn from others? When did Statesman make that comment? Can ya give a link? Not calling you a liar, I just wanna see the exact wording before I relay the info to my friends.
Kheldian endurance is drawn from others? When did Statesman make that comment? Can ya give a link?
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Alien is the origin, as normal. The Peacebringer or Warshade is simply the AT itself. They define how they are played. Statesman said that their endurance is based on their team, thus its simple to conclude that the Peacebringers (who belive in voluntary merging) draw endurance from their team and thus are team based. The Warshade (who belive in taking over bodies) would naturally draw their endurance from everyone thus making them good for soloing.
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I suspect the Kheldans will still get standard origins, either based on "this is what your character was before the alien Exalted her" or "I want to make myself and my buddy in my head stronger.. I think I will train/summon/expose myself to radiation". This way they won't have to make a whole new origin set of enhancers just for this small group.
Some of the best powers in the game don't exist in comics. Ever see a "Hero" cause Radiation Infection to slow villian down? I mean that is pretty hard core. While there may be villians that do that I don't think there are any heros.
Being true to comics is good but being a good game is the most important thing.
We will see what they are like when released. What I would hope for rather than origin/AT issues is that they actually LOOK different. Everyone knows aliens from the same planet don't always look alike LOL. Having some cool new faces/bodies would be a nice touch.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Maybe the dev's are being creative and trying to make archetypes that aren't in comics yet.
Yes this game is based on comics but that doesn't mean that everything has to be from comics
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BINGO! The goal of the Epic Archetypes is NOT to reflect paradigms that already exist, but rather to create a gameplay experience that reflects the City of Heroes mythology.
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Pretty disappointed. Kheldian's not an origin, it's a race. Warshade and Peacebringer aren't archetypes in comics, they're classes in a nerd game. And not only that they seem to be extremely specific classes. Like tanks, they aren't designed to specifically fit in and be part of the genre but to serve a logistic purpose, make teaming more common.
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I think this paragraph pretty much hits it on the head. I've run superhero RPG for some time now. Usually I get really good backgrounds, were people think of interesting ways their characters became heroes. But every once in a while you get the guy who's only explaination for his character is he's Kryptonian, former S.H.I.E.L.D, or just a mutant (with no other backstory). That to me is what Kheldains are in COH. How did you get your powers? Your a Kheldian. Why are you here? Same reason the other Kheldians are. What are your general goals? Same as the other Peacebringers.
Think about it, in comics heroes are typically somewhat unique. There aren't a bunch of others with the same orgin & powers running around. Even if the hero's entire race has the same powers as him, he's usually the only one hanging around (or one of a very small number). This is done for a very good reason. Superman, Hawkgirl and Martian Manhunter are all good examples. Each of them would somehow be lessened if a whole bunch of Kryptonians, Thanagarians, or Martians showed up and all became heroes. That's pretty much why I have no intention of playing one.
The sad thing is, until now, we never needed epics to be part of COH lore. If you take some time to look through hero bios it won't take long to find someone who is a "rogue clockwork", "escaped COT victim", "runaway Crey experiment", or some other COH inspired origin. If Kheldians were introduced with out a specific AT, within a day you would find people with "I'm a Kheldian" type of origins anyway.
If Cryptic wants to start telling us when we are allowed to make backgrounds that are part of extisting factions and lore within COH I suppose I'll adapt, but I'm not deleting my Freedom Corps character even if that becomes an EAT.
It's creative. Very creative.
It's not like anything I've seen before.
It's cooler than what I expected ETA's to be (I like Green Arrow and all, but a WHOLE archetype dedicated to him and Hawkeye?)
It's not a reward for everyone who "worked" hard to become level 50, it's a reward for people who have allowed themselves to become so immersed in the mythology. And I for one feel well rewarded already.
I think it's not limiting at all to have your origin partially determined. There is still the reasons why your characters parts became merged, why the particular Kheldian cam to Paragon. Characters linked to the CoH univers will be more fun to role play. I have an Eidolon, and a former Rikti support droid character, because of that the things happening in the game are more relevent to me. If I were to make a Neprunian Klazon interigator (Made it up) the chances of anyone else or the game itself actually meaning anything to my character are nil.
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As long as they keep them low key in power (think Stealth and Flurry not Haste and Provoke) they will be golden and a welcome boon for those in their 40s. Way cool.
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"Low key" Better not be. Wouldnt be too epic.
I'm w/EvGen_88 on this one. Just because you're a Kheldian character does *not* mean that you're limited to "only be an alien" (unless, of course, you limit yourself). People playing *any* origin can create a background, the game is (happily) open-ended. Sure, I've got my Paragon Protector look-a-like, but his story *builds* on the one that CoH provides. Using your imagination, success, fellowship and enjoyability are, IMO, the things that MMO's are built on.
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Think about it, in comics heroes are typically somewhat unique. There aren't a bunch of others with the same orgin & powers running around.
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Green Lantern Corp
I've been following this Epic AT thing for a while, reading interviews, etc.
While this includes a bit of speculation, this is what I have been able to piece together so far....
There are going to be 16 primary & 16 secondary power sets. It looks like Warspites are going to be scranker types & peacebringers are going to be blastdeftrollers. However, you pick the primary & secondary sets, so you don't have to follow the strict definition of the main ATs. If you pick a damage set as a primary, you have to pick a defense/buff/control set for your secondary. & vice versa. This means that you can build what ever you want. For example, you can take whatever passes for Fire Control as a primary & the pseudo fire blast as a secondary. Or you can make an Invul/Energy Blast guy. & so on. Now, I may not be describing the power sets exactly, but this is the gist of what the new Epics are all about. You get to make a character that can be as unique or mainstream as you want, but with new powers & power sets.
Little mention has been made of power pools, but it seems that there are Epic specific power pools as well that are different from the Epic power pools that main ATs get.
Also, they have been very quiet on the winged AT, which may indicate we won't see wings in issue 3.
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Green Lantern Corp
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And how many active Green Lanterns hang out on Earth?
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There are going to be 16 primary & 16 secondary power sets. It looks like Warspites are going to be scranker types & peacebringers are going to be blastdeftrollers. However, you pick the primary & secondary sets, so you don't have to follow the strict definition of the main ATs. If you pick a damage set as a primary, you have to pick a defense/buff/control set for your secondary. & vice versa. This means that you can build what ever you want. For example, you can take whatever passes for Fire Control as a primary & the pseudo fire blast as a secondary. Or you can make an Invul/Energy Blast guy. & so on. Now, I may not be describing the power sets exactly, but this is the gist of what the new Epics are all about. You get to make a character that can be as unique or mainstream as you want, but with new powers & power sets.
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Woa, Statesman said there are 16 primary and 16 secondary powers, not powersets. From the sounds of it, each EAT as one primary and and one secondary to choose from, but I'll admit, that's only speculation on my part.
I was pretty excited when they announced a couple of epic Archetypes for the game. I figured they would probably be a great oprotunity to play some of the more powerful heroes I designed. Me and mine spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what they would be. Then I read Statesman's description.
Kheldians: Warshades and Peacebringers.
So, uhm. These aren't archetypes, these are straight up classes. An archetype is a general model or pattern from which all similar things are copied or based. The current five archetypes, ARE indeed archetypes. You can fill voluminous lists with comic heroes that fit Balster, Tank, Scrapper, Defender, Controller. More than that the five current archetypes model their comic counterparts pretty well. (Except of course Tanks, all they do is serve a nerd game purpose, they are nothing like the comics, but 4 out of 5 is pretty good!)
Now we get Warshades, Peacebringers. Ok, so, these are the archetypes for all those dozens of your favorite super powerful comic book heroes who are from another planet and draw power from the number of people around themselves? I mean a facet of the class is that they are aliens? That should be left to origin, not be inherent in an archetype. The description of these things is actually kind of too specific for a class, let alone trying to pass it off as an archetype.
I was hoping for actual missing comic book archetypes, maybe along the lines of Powerhouse (big guys who can also do damage), Mastermind (Lex, Joker, etc... smart guys the type everyone has to make scrappers or controllers now) and Sentinel (maybe along the lines of Defender but with melee damage).
Nope, Warshades. Peacebringers.
"You know like those comic book staples, uhm... You know the ones, there's that guy."
"Which one do you mean? There's SO many that have the integral traits of coming from an alien planet and drawing power from the people in their proximity. I just don't know where to begin."
And before someone yells out Manhunter or Superman or something... yes they are aliens. We don't need an archetype for superpowerful aliens, we have a science origin. In the above examples I gave Manhunter could be a Science Powerhouse. There's not, and probably never will be (hopefully) an archetype that you can fit Clark in.
Pretty disappointed. Kheldian's not an origin, it's a race. Warshade and Peacebringer aren't archetypes in comics, they're classes in a nerd game. And not only that they seem to be extremely specific classes. Like tanks, they aren't designed to specifically fit in and be part of the genre but to serve a logistic purpose, make teaming more common.
I suppose this wouldn't have been such a big issue if Cryptic hadn't sworn up and down, left and right, that this game would never, ever have the pigeon holed classes of other games. Well, then again they said they wouldn't have dance emotes and dance clubs either so... Lame.
All that being said, we don't know much about these things so I can't give up hope yet. Cryptic has surprised me in the past, maybe they will here too. I sure hope so!