Kheldians are not archetypes
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2004-11-10 09:21 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I could not find a way to create a new topic so hopefully some DEV will see this.
I would just like to know what happens if we are post level 41 when Issue 3 comes out. If I already chose a normal power at 41, could I respec to choose an EPP instead?
Basically, how do we get the EPP's? If you can't tell me that, could you at least reassure me I'll be able to get an Epic Power Pool with my post 41 char?
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I could not find a way to create a new topic so hopefully some DEV will see this.
I would just like to know what happens if we are post level 41 when Issue 3 comes out. If I already chose a normal power at 41, could I respec to choose an EPP instead?
Basically, how do we get the EPP's? If you can't tell me that, could you at least reassure me I'll be able to get an Epic Power Pool with my post 41 char?
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Imagine they're the same as any other power; you get the choice to pick from the Epic Power Pools as well as the other ones at Level 41+. So, if you're 41+ you can Respec and get the EPPs that way.
Well thats what I was worried about. That meens if I or someone else have done their last respec, then it's too late for them to go back and get an Epic Power Pool.
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Well thats what I was worried about. That meens if I or someone else have done their last respec, then it's too late for them to go back and get an Epic Power Pool.
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Statesman is consdiering allowing people like that a free Respec. Don't hold your breath though.
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I believe what Statesman has said was that both EATs would have 16 power SETS (8 primary, 8 secondary I would assume), not just 16 predetermined powers, and I would assume they would have access to all the power pools as well, which goes against the analogy of your "elf mage." Though if you could find the direct quote where he says that the EATs would be given 16 powers rather than 16 powersets, I'll concide the point.
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I thought much the same (it's a very confusing quote).
States says:
Both Archetypes have brand NEW power sets.
In fact, there's 16 Primary Powers and 16 Secondary Powers.
Yep. Not 9. 16.
The "Not 9" thing seems to confirm that these are powers, not powersets, as other ATs have 9 powers per set.
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Now we get Warshades, Peacebringers. Ok, so, these are the archetypes for all those dozens of your favorite super powerful comic book heroes who are from another planet and draw power from the number of people around themselves? I mean a facet of the class is that they are aliens? That should be left to origin, not be inherent in an archetype. The description of these things is actually kind of too specific for a class, let alone trying to pass it off as an archetype.
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The thing I'm getting about the EATs is that they all fit under the heading of "I'm not really a part of any of the 5 main hero types." Essentially these could be thought of as all one archetype, but only not.
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And before someone yells out Manhunter or Superman or something... yes they are aliens. We don't need an archetype for superpowerful aliens, we have a science origin. In the above examples I gave Manhunter could be a Science Powerhouse. There's not, and probably never will be (hopefully) an archetype that you can fit Clark in.
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Actually, Science isn't the one for aliens, Natural is, but that's beside the point. Also, if by Manhunter you mean, "Martian Manhunter," then "Powerhouse" would be a mistake. DC's Martians would be considered EATs with the shapeshifting and the mental powers. However, if we aren't naming those two then how about some others that fit into the idea that each comic universe has EATs that are unique to themselves and wouldn't be thought of as fitting any archetype (note: there ARE only 5 classic archetypes).
1) Image's Spawn: In fact there have been many Spawns according to the mythos of the comic. All of them are humans who died and were given powers directly linked to Hell. All of them have the exact same powers and their major weakness is that they have a limited amount of power they can use before they are completely corrupted.
2) DC's Green Lantern: Energy blaster, Illusion controler, FF defender, and any sort of scrapper or tanker they want to be and they can change their role on the fly. With the infinite power of their rings, the GL Corps screams of being an EAT and they really don't fit into the any other AT. What's more, since EATs are supposed have weaknesses: what about the color yellow?
3) DC's Hawkman/Hawkgirl: More specifically the Thanegarian race as a whole. 'Nough said.
The fact is that the Kheldian's "classes" (and other EATs) are just the CoH world's response to every other comic book universe's characters who don't fit into the main five archetypes that can be seen constantly.
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The fact is that the Kheldian's "classes" (and other EATs) are just the CoH world's response to every other comic book universe's characters who don't fit into the main five archetypes that can be seen constantly.
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Here in is the exact problem. Heroes in comics rarely fit into the basic archetypes, but for game balance we have them and must fit our characters into them.
If you played the orginal D&D game before it became advanced, you might remember what the classes were like. If you were human you could choose between fighter, mage, cleric, & thief. If you were and elf you were automatically what would become a fighter/mage. If you were a dwarf or halfling you were a fighter (but each races own varient of fighter). This is basically what COH is evolving into, if your human (or from Earth) you are one of 5 archtypes, othewise you are a race/class combo.
Perhaps I could illistrate it better if I tell you how I think the archtype way of introducing Kheldians would work instead of the class version we're getting.
Obviously if the EATs work differently than current archtypes they must have their own "function". Crytpic could introduce a real EAT that is designed around that function. Give it about 4 or 5 primary and secondary powersets, fire, ice, darkness, & energy for example. Lets call it the Offender EAT. For the sake of arguement, lets assume the entire EAT is unlocked at 50. At that point you can make an Offender EAT matching any of the EATs primaries to a secondary (say a Fire/Ice Offender), and pick any orgin like we normally do.
Now introduce Kheldians into the game, and have them use powers from this new EAT, say energy/energy. Within a day you will see players choosing to make Kheldians from this new AT, mimicing powers as close to them as they can. If they want to give players access to Kheldian stories they still could. Perhaps a special origin called Kheldian that is only avialable after you unlock the Offender EAT, that then forces you to select energy/energy if you choose it.
The game was set up so that we have 'general' ATs that we can then use to make specific heroes. If you want to make a hero that is part of a specific race or group you can. Just select the archtype and powersets that best represents the group. Do we really need entire power sets devoted to specific races? That would be like saying only Green Lanterns can have moldable force fields, or only kryptonians can have flight and superstrength together, an idea that is a complete 180 to how COH was introduced,
Kheldians are an archetype. They're just not the sort of archetype that we have a name for like tank or mage (or tankmage). They're an archetype of a person achieving superhuman ability via either openning themselves up to outside energy or entity or being forcefully possessed by such. They are a race, yes, but they're more openly just a representation; you have to look at what they do and how they do it not just what they are..
A Kheldian bonded with a human can have any number of origins, including...
A Quasar type hero who is possessed by some alien entity/energy. That's the straight forward approach but doesn't look at their traits.
Or, looking at how they gain power, perhaps you might opt for...
Centuries ago, a small group of Kheldians needed to fight off a group of Nictus that were taking over some people and doing, well, bad things. So they bonded with worthy humans and ended up fighting the Nictus as such. But to aid in their power, they had other humans worship them as gods, relying upon their belief and close proximity to empower them. Eventually fact became legend, legend myth, and the epic struggle of the Norse Gods versus the Giants was created. Jump forward to the present day and one of those ancient Warshades (the one who used to be Thor perhaps) has returned to once again fight the Nictus..
Bang, we've just created a background for a whole bunch of Kheldians simply by applying to them the aspect of divinity. You can play Thor or Hercules or some super powered Greek Amazon. And that's just one interpretation.
You could also say that, in a sort of Statesman/Western interpretation, that your hero became enlightened, proving themselves worthy of being host. Blah blah blah, they gained 'enlightened' powers and what have you.
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Here in is the exact problem. Heroes in comics rarely fit into the basic archetypes, but for game balance we have them and must fit our characters into them.
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I beg to differ. The fact is that most heroes in comics do fit into the 5 basics. The thing about the game is that certain power sets haven't been introduced into the game to facilitate that.
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If you played the orginal D&D game before it became advanced, you might remember what the classes were like. If you were human you could choose between fighter, mage, cleric, & thief. If you were and elf you were automatically what would become a fighter/mage. If you were a dwarf or halfling you were a fighter (but each races own varient of fighter). This is basically what COH is evolving into, if your human (or from Earth) you are one of 5 archtypes, othewise you are a race/class combo.
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I can come up with a bunch of RP ways to actually get around this apparent limitation, which I can go into if you ask. Oh and Statesman's AT (which he said would be out after CoV) would be for humans as well.
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That would be like saying only Green Lanterns can have moldable force fields, or only kryptonians can have flight and superstrength together, an idea that is a complete 180 to how COH was introduced.
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You are being way to general with the powers of GLs and Kryptonians. The introduction of the Kheldians in the way they are doing it now would be more like saying that Kryptonians are mostly the ones who have the combination of powers of flight, super strength, super jump, super speed/intangiblity, invulnerablity, x-ray vision/heat vision, cold breath, and super reflexes (primary set = defense, secondary = offence). What that means is that Kheldians might not be the only ones with the powers they have since you should still be able to choose your Origin when you create the character (the devs haven't said you can't yet).
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BINGO! The goal of the Epic Archetypes is NOT to reflect paradigms that already exist, but rather to create a gameplay experience that reflects the City of Heroes mythology.
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I just think that the introduction of these Kryptonians...oh wait excuse me Kheldians is a very strange way to reward people who have made it all the way to 50 or who have unlocked Kheldians in any other way you guys decide. I simply feel it stunts the creative aspect of character design and stroy creation if the devlepors have already decided your character has come from another world. I personally think that taking away so much of the character design process form us by forcing this "archetype" on us is dissapoitning. Let alone my feelings against making their powersbetter in groups; what if you prefer being a bit of a loner? I am VERY pleased with and looking foerward to the epic power pools, I just think you guys could have found a way to make these epic archetypes more easily accesible to different origin stories because in effect Kheldian seems to thematially be an origin NOT an archetype. I'll stop ranting now but this coupled with the removal of the 5th Column so as to sell more copies in europe are both bad moves. Love the game so far guys though I'm just worreid for the first time with this game.
KHELDIANS R TEH SUXXORR
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I was pretty excited when they announced a couple of epic Archetypes for the game. I figured they would probably be a great oprotunity to play some of the more powerful heroes I designed. Me and mine spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what they would be. Then I read Statesman's description.
Kheldians: Warshades and Peacebringers.
So, uhm. These aren't archetypes, these are straight up classes. An archetype is a general model or pattern from which all similar things are copied or based. The current five archetypes, ARE indeed archetypes. You can fill voluminous lists with comic heroes that fit Balster, Tank, Scrapper, Defender, Controller. More than that the five current archetypes model their comic counterparts pretty well. (Except of course Tanks, all they do is serve a nerd game purpose, they are nothing like the comics, but 4 out of 5 is pretty good!)
Now we get Warshades, Peacebringers. Ok, so, these are the archetypes for all those dozens of your favorite super powerful comic book heroes who are from another planet and draw power from the number of people around themselves? I mean a facet of the class is that they are aliens? That should be left to origin, not be inherent in an archetype. The description of these things is actually kind of too specific for a class, let alone trying to pass it off as an archetype.
I was hoping for actual missing comic book archetypes, maybe along the lines of Powerhouse (big guys who can also do damage), Mastermind (Lex, Joker, etc... smart guys the type everyone has to make scrappers or controllers now) and Sentinel (maybe along the lines of Defender but with melee damage).
Nope, Warshades. Peacebringers.
"You know like those comic book staples, uhm... You know the ones, there's that guy."
"Which one do you mean? There's SO many that have the integral traits of coming from an alien planet and drawing power from the people in their proximity. I just don't know where to begin."
And before someone yells out Manhunter or Superman or something... yes they are aliens. We don't need an archetype for superpowerful aliens, we have a science origin. In the above examples I gave Manhunter could be a Science Powerhouse. There's not, and probably never will be (hopefully) an archetype that you can fit Clark in.
Pretty disappointed. Kheldian's not an origin, it's a race. Warshade and Peacebringer aren't archetypes in comics, they're classes in a nerd game. And not only that they seem to be extremely specific classes. Like tanks, they aren't designed to specifically fit in and be part of the genre but to serve a logistic purpose, make teaming more common.
I suppose this wouldn't have been such a big issue if Cryptic hadn't sworn up and down, left and right, that this game would never, ever have the pigeon holed classes of other games. Well, then again they said they wouldn't have dance emotes and dance clubs either so... Lame. 
All that being said, we don't know much about these things so I can't give up hope yet. Cryptic has surprised me in the past, maybe they will here too. I sure hope so!
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Actually pick up the Twilight Project by Wilstorm, both of the heroes( and the villian in it) strongly resemble human form kelds( both PB & WS)
I can see the fans of Kheldians saying 6 months later they are just too cool. I resisted the urge to create one. I caved.
Made level 6. DELETED>
Now, I agree with the original poster and some of the things that followed. I agreed with some of the replies as well.
The biggest thing that caught my eye (I reread the entire listing) was the poster who suggested that after 50 levels of earning, to have something unlocked that forced you into an origin (origin meaning backstory, not Game Origin/Class) of being a 'merged alien' is a valid point.
This is true bile if its the reward for climbing to 50. And believe me, some of us climbed and not PL'd. I can't accept that in a world rocked by an alien invasion that any hero right up to Stateman (the in-story guy, not the developer) himself is even "okay" with the very thought that more aliens is a good thing. In fact, I would think that he and his buddies in the Freedom Phalanx would be unnerved at the idea considering how many of his closest friends paid the price to protect Mother Earth from an alien presence.
But OK, I'll say it's part of the CoH mythos. I'll bite.
In recent history, my hometown baseball team, the Diamondbacks, hired a manager (Wally Backman) they failed to do a background check on, and in the end never completed the transaction, and hired a new candidate because the Backman deal would not stand up to scrutiny.
Its not too late for that posters suggestion to be taken serious and implemented and CoH to rework its Wally Backman. I am going to spin it a little for modification purpose.
Make Kheldians an origin choice that can use both Natural and Science. Make a Epic AT that unlocks at 50 that allows for combinations the other ATs currently don't deliver. Several choices and then make the Kheldian ORIGIN become available here. This choice could then make the current Kheldian setup work out. Beyond this, the absolute TRUTH (a concept that people often in these boards take semantic repetition and razor splitting precision to unravel) is that the Kheldian AT is not a fair reward for making it to 50. I am neither impressed nor satisfied as a paying customer with the 'reward' for time and money invested and the accomplishments of the player.
Kheldians is a lemon; a "Let them eat cake" answer to hungry long-term players and a great example of someone else thinking their "cool" idea is your idea of a "cool" idea.
Just because each powerset has 16 powers does not mean you get all of them. And with one primary and one secondary to select from, the other ATs are still far more appealing to the the player for variance, origin, and story ideal.
Whether Kheldians advance the story concept for the Developers has nothing to do with you or I as a player advancing our own creativity or comic world that WE buy into. And they screw up the learned dynamic of player proficiency in groups far more than creating the opportunity for teaming to improve in quality.
The short answer is that I do not have to make a Kheldian if I choose not to. The long awaited anticipation will be that the next release of ATs is a true reward for my time invested and loyalty. That is will be a wider array of generic-type categorical ATs that allow for obvious difference to the beginning player.
If I want to say he or she is an alien or even a plant, that should be my choice alone.
Sure is one hell of circle jerk going on in here.... yep.
You threadromanced my threadromancy.
Damn
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I can see the fans of Kheldians saying 6 months later they are just too cool.
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Once you get into them, they are pretty epic. I got a pb up to level 16 initially and shelved it, it was too loaded with drawbacks. But with Issue 4 the drawbacks were removed, so I revisited my lvl 16.
A world of difference. Now my pb is 34 and my lvl 50 is storing up HOs for him.
Really, these kheldians are quite epic. Instant phase shift, innate travel powers, solid resistance powers, lots of damage powers to choose from, bonuses to damage/resistance from party members, and the ability to change shape to powerful specialized forms. (Technically, peacebringers get an extra form with Light Form at level 38.)
And another reason why I returned to my peacebringer was because dwarf tankers can't be detoggled in the arena.
Peacebringers and warshades are sub-ATs at worst. I mean, you have enough extra powers to choose from so that almost no two Kheldians are likely to be exactly the same. Sure, some powers are must-haves like quantum flight, but your peacebringer could emphasize human form resistances/damage with healing and controlling, or go for non-human-form play as dwarf/squid (tank/mage), or with the warshade stay human and be a pet-controller/debuffer with good resistances and innate teleporting and blaster-type powers, or go dwarf/squid.
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The short answer is that I do not have to make a Kheldian if I choose not to. The long awaited anticipation will be that the next release of ATs is a true reward for my time invested and loyalty. That is will be a wider array of generic-type categorical ATs that allow for obvious difference to the beginning player.
If I want to say he or she is an alien or even a plant, that should be my choice alone.
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Well, I have a little warshade too, and I chose to go all human and claim that the alien energy was captured in a device.
There's a lot of alien-energy-powered heroes in the comics, not the least of which is Green Lantern (a peacebringer if ever I saw one).
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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BINGO! The goal of the Epic Archetypes is NOT to reflect paradigms that already exist, but rather to create a gameplay experience that reflects the City of Heroes mythology.
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I know this was said long, long ago, but I wanted to comment that playing my Peacebringer puts me in mind of two actual comic book groups:
Heralds of Galactus
The Green Lantern Corps.
Not necessarily in specific powers (the Heralds are all different, and I don't see a peacebringer creating giant fists o' energy, but still). Not necessarily in power level, either. Just the feel. The sense of what the Kheldians are like.
Heck, on the GL side, how many Kheldians have a variant on the "merged with a dying Kheldian?" origin? 
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Isn't this just arguing semantics? What difference does it really make if we call them archetypes or classes?
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It makes a big difference. Archetypes have power sets.
For example, a "Kheldian" AT would have 4 power sets: a Peacebringer primary/secondary and a Warshade primary/secondary.
Of course, then you could mix and match powers, but as we all know, choice is bad
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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KHELDIANS R TEH SUXXORR
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My personally? I'd have to agree with this comment (for once!).
I think the whole "Kheldian" thing is a joke. They should have slated those powers for something more "comic styled". I mean honestly folks, I'm not even remotely impressed with the graphics or "look" of Kheldian.
Now, Incarnates, Coralax, and Aviax (sp?), that is something that has gotten my attention!
Oddly, I saw the potential to build a strangely accurate duplicate of that Star Brand guy with a peace bringer (other forms notwithstanding). For those of you (most of you i bet) who don't know him, he was a 'new universe' fellow that had a weapon that imbued him with a strange sort of 'energy body' within, that allowed him super strength (those melee thingies), flight, energy blasting, and of course he had a pretty nifty nova too.
LOL
Now, Incarnates, Coralax, and Aviax (sp?), that is something that has gotten my attention!
Yeh I am real impressed with those WORDS 2..... CLOWNS 
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Oddly, I saw the potential to build a strangely accurate duplicate of that Star Brand guy with a peace bringer (other forms notwithstanding). For those of you (most of you i bet) who don't know him, he was a 'new universe' fellow that had a weapon that imbued him with a strange sort of 'energy body' within, that allowed him super strength (those melee thingies), flight, energy blasting, and of course he had a pretty nifty nova too.
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Also, a self-rez.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
> Also, a self-rez.
Aha! I knew I forgot something.
I'd build it now but then someone would catch on... heh.
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I know this was said long, long ago, but I wanted to comment that playing my Peacebringer puts me in mind of two actual comic book groups:
Heralds of Galactus
The Green Lantern Corps.
Not necessarily in specific powers (the Heralds are all different, and I don't see a peacebringer creating giant fists o' energy, but still). Not necessarily in power level, either. Just the feel. The sense of what the Kheldians are like.
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For my part, I think they DO fit an AT in comics: shapeshifters. Not as well as we'd like, certainly, but... it's partly there.
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Heck, on the GL side, how many Kheldians have a variant on the "merged with a dying Kheldian?" origin?
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Not mine. Pall's human form was the one dying 
Wait... What's the point? *Playing* a comic book?
...
Yep. We're playing parts in a comic book. You've played this long because of what?
Huh?
You're having fun so far? Hrm... Give them a shot...
New aliens that make us even *more* comic book-y? *Gasp!* "That's not cool or game friendly! Lets bash it. I'm super enough and don't want to be any more super!" "Discrepancy in design"? Don't make me laugh! They're designing a comic for us to play, not *copying* a comic to play. Not a departure, but an imaginitive step forward (into a comic-y realm of a storyline).
*I* find your objections both "tenuous" and overly worried about something that HASN'T EVEN DEBUTED ON TEST. Truly, I'm sorry that I picked up on this thread.