Well, this aoe-provoke tied into Tanker attacks is an artificial fix to correct a Tanker issue, its not a function of the power. I agree that feedback on powers is good, but these arent superpowers called Jeering Jab, Provoking Punch and Heckling Haymaker from the Provoke Melee power pool.
Unless the feedback is something like a chat balloon above the minions saying He smashed Lenny, get him! or Holy.. rush that guy!, I dont think its appropriate. It would be unlike anything you ever see drawn in a comic to display what is actually happening (bad guys turning their attention towards you because youre kicking tail). And even chat balloons/chat text would turn into a lot of spam quickly, especially with multiple Tankers fighting. These melee attacks already have effects associated with them to begin with.
If this was the Provoke Melee power pool, sure, but this is just a behind-the-scenes artificial way of making Tankers a more attractive targets to the villains, and it should stay quietly behind-the-scenes. My two cents.
(Im not even wild about the idea of uncontrollable aoe-provoke punches to begin with.)
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Unless the feedback is something like a chat balloon above the minions saying He smashed Lenny, get him! or Holy.. rush that guy!, I dont think its appropriate.
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That would actually be rather cool!
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I agree, Umagon. Automated and uncontrollable, thats not a direction I really want to go. I wish they would discuss this with us a bit more.
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That would be no different from critical hits, which are automated and uncontrollable, and thus don't change tactics much, if at all. Anyway, there is precedent for them making that kind of change.
I think people are asuuming the AOE range is going to be equivlent to provoke. My guess is that the taunt effect is going either be melle range, about 2 yards, or slightly smaller. This means it would be good at keeping aggro once you have them near you, but it isn't going to really grab anything very far away from you. That will be what provoke and taunt are for.
That means, you still have to pay attention and grab straglers. It will also be of shorter duration than provoke and taunt. This mean you are going to have to keep up a constant barrage in order to keep it going.
People who know their powers and how to use them well will still be better than people who use them blindly.
If I am not mistaken, most tanks are Inv, which allready has an PBAoE taunt in Invincibility. Does that mean that Inv tanks are just provoke bots, which takes no skill to play?
JVB
I would still like to have Provoke moved into our primary powers.
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I agree, Umagon. Automated and uncontrollable, thats not a direction I really want to go. I wish they would discuss this with us a bit more.
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That would be no different from critical hits, which are automated and uncontrollable, and thus don't change tactics much, if at all. Anyway, there is precedent for them making that kind of change.
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Do you really not see the difference there?
Uncontrollable critical hits allow you to do more damage. Who's going to complain about doing more damage? And how does that have the potential to be a bad thing to a Scrapper?
Uncontrollable AoE provokes may lead to you getting more villains aggro on you in a given fight than you can handle. I can understand players complaining about that.
As jvbrown mentioned, a very short range AoE wouldnt be bad, as you more or less have some measure of control as to what is directly around you. But if some of my team are purposely fielding bad guys while Im tanking as many as I can handle fifteen feet away (staying in healing range is a good thing), and my punches keep attracting too many villains away from them and back onto me, that has the potential to suck a whole lot.
It can also lead to a lot of wacky villain behavior if multiple tanks are all fighting within proximity of each other.
While I can see your concern about uncontrollable amounts of enemies hording over your tanker, I have a feeling that if this sort of thing became common enough, that the developers would either discontinue the new tanker advancements, or they would consider a way to fix the problem to an extent you would find satisfactory.
And while the punches would have an AoE taunt area, you have to still remember that with the taunt, you're also hopefully going to get a bit more power behind your attacks to balance that. Your force of destruction AND your taunting should assist you to a point where your attacks can do decent enough damage that maybe you won't get too bogged down as long as your taunt range isn't super distant.
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As jvbrown mentioned, a very short range AoE wouldn’t be bad, as you more or less have some measure of control as to what is directly around you.
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The goal is to make holding aggro easier, and a very short range AoE Provoke will not be of any significant benefit. That should be obvious: if the goal is to affect mobs, then the goal is furthered by affecting more mobs, not less--precisely the opposite of having a smaller AoE.
There are two obvious solutions, to me, if all Tankers must have similar magnitudes for the auto-Provoke effect:
First, one can make it not mandatory. As an SS Tanker, this is already an option for me, without any changes to anything. As everyone knows, boxing as good as, if not better than, jab anyway, so one can just get and use boxing. Boxing is pool and won't have the auto-Provoke just as it does not have the auto-Taunt. But, of course, this is not a good solution for all Tanker builds. However, a decision could be made to just make some Tanker attacks Provoke and others not.
Another possibility is to make the Provoke effect less like Provoke and work only for _holding_ aggro and not _obtaining_ aggro. For example, one might say that any mob in the AoE has any non-null aggro magnitude towards the Tank increased. Then, the aggro management effect would allow Tankers to hang onto aggro despite AoE attacks but it would not pull in any more mobs than what we get now.
In any case, I feel that a larger area effect, not smaller, is necessary. I can understand the concern that younger Tankers are too fragile for it, but I believe the solution must lie somewhere other than shrinking the area of effect for all Tankers.
I Don't think a tiny provoke-esque graphic would be a problem (i like them personaly.)
my concern over the waves of agro is that its too easy. as it stands now its very easy for a tanker to crowd controll as long as the tanker can take the abuse. (and they work primarily on crowd controll). now if you make it any easier it could lead to the tanker being flat better than the controller for crowd controll. (i realize that both tankers and controllers do crowd controll but you'd think a 'controller' would be better at crowd control 
) I guess i just think that free waves of agro is too easy, too good. but then once i see it in action i may think diferently.
AND you have situations where the tank may not want waves of agro (like one tanker is better at tanking X while the other at tanking Y, and tanker whose tanking X keeps loosing agro due to the agro waves flying around)
i guess time will tell and i'd LOVE if the devs would talk about it with us some.
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Uncontrollable AoE provokes may lead to you getting more villains aggro on you in a given fight than you can handle. I can understand players complaining about that.
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I have never been in a situation where I have been concerned that too many mobs will aggro to me. In groups that is the whole point, better the mobs are attacking me than my mates. Solo, since I am the only hero around, they are going to be attacking me anyways since there is no one else. I don't have a snipe so I can't try to attack one person in a group.
I just don't get this argument. What situation would you be in where you wouldn't want all the mobs to aggro to you?
I would not want, say, a dozen Vahzilok Abominations to be taking an interest in me all at the same time if I were a Tanker in my teen levels.
Tankers are not real Tankers before they reach level 20. They're abilities are a mix of values based on a generic archetype that are slowly morphing towards the values on the Tanker tables. They also may or may not have their defenses heavily slotted at this point depending on how they chose to place their slots (which are not handed out in abundance like they are at later levels), and are probably still using generic enhancements. Depending on their initial power choices they may not have much in the way of defensive powers to begin with. Things like this arent an issue for elder Tankers.
However, even an elder Tanker can find himself in a position where his life is threatened. At a point where luck is all that stands between you and death, is attracting the attention of even more villain the wisest move you could be making at that point (particularly if the rest of your team is relatively healthy and capable of fielding a few bad guys for you)? Your only recourse at that moment would be to cease attacking, which I doubt very many Tankers want to be in the position to have to do just to control their aggro.
I dont know, the potential problems seem obvious to me. It may be one of those things that just don't make sense until you find yourself in that position.
Perhaps a better solution would be to create an inherent power (preferably without a stamina requirement) that causes the AoE effect via your attacks. That way you would have a semblence of control over how it effects the enemies.
I.E. You're about to begin a fight with a large group of enemies, so to keep them off your allies or to attract them to yourself, you switch on the inherent power called something like 'Fists of Agression'. The FoA causes any attack you use, ANY attack, to bring agression to you within an AoE distance (around you or from where your fists are, that's not the issue at the moment). Suddenly you notice that, say for instance, an ArchVillain is incredibly close to the group you're beating to a pulp, and you no longer wish to taunt anything nearby. Then you shut off FoA, the taunt effect disappears, and you have your control.
I would say this is the best course of action for those early levels. If nothing else, it gives you that slight control that you would feel you need, while giving everyone else what they want.
why not 'simply' (heh i know nothing is simple, just that is seems 'simple' from my player point of view 
i didnt say easy, notice...) increase from one increment or one half increment the damage ranking from some damaging powers of each melee set from tanker ? could help without cause too many 'alpha' kill from boss or lieut...even with a 20 to 30% damage boost, my tanker wont alpha anything, even if totally 6SO'ed damage...
or increase the damage ranking from one increment of lower damage powers ( from number 1st to 4th, or 5th maybe ? )
my 2 cents
Ah, almost like a toggle. Yes, anything that gives you more control over your character Im generally in favor for. I dont care much for automated systems that can get me into trouble, Id rather do that on my own.
Yes, if the concept behind all of this, as Statesman put it, is that the villains recognize that you are becoming an increasing threat and thus their attention shifts to you, I think there are ways for your Tanker to be more flamboyant about it to achieve that effect and also ways not to be as obvious. Maybe this results in simply increasing the range of the AoE from something that is quite large all the way down to a very tight area around you.
If you really want to be the center of attention, just grab the villain by the foot and let out a bellow as you start swinging him around as a club against all the other villains. There are ways to be less than subtle about your presence on the battlefield.
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If you really want to be the center of attention, just grab the villain by the foot and let out a bellow as you start swinging him around as a club against all the other villains.
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This is a great idea. We should be able to grab villains and throw them. Yeah. Love it. 
Antaean
Proud to fight alongside:
The LEGENDARIES & SAFE HARBOR
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I dont care much for automated systems that can get me into trouble, Id rather do that on my own.
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I agree. You, sir, seem to be an unpopular yet powerful voice in the tanker forum. I applaud your efforts. You also have been championing the cry for Knockback/Knockdown stuff, which further exemplifies this point. Bravo.
@xvmuratvx
Corvus Babel, Level 50 Invulnerability/Super Strength Tanker, Pinnacle [Retired]
Corvus Babel, Level 12 Peacebringer Kheldian, Virtue [Active] PICTURE
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The increased aggro is something that's close to implementation....The increased damage has proven a tad problematic, but we're wrestling with some ways around it. I'm afraid I can't give anything definite there.
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I was just wondering if we will be seeing the increase to aggro soon, Statesman? I want to make all these bad guys quake in thier boots. 
Icensun
Feedom Server
Neo-Genesys Super Group
www.SYN-CITY.COM
Captain Powers 50thlevel Inv/SS Tanker
Icensun 34th level Inv/En Tanker
Autoblaster 46th level AR/Dev Blaster
I'm not going to read all 7 pages of this to see if I'm being redundant but States said tonight that it will be AFTER Update 3 is released. Sad but true.
The vigil continues. 
Simple solution: swap taunt and provoke.
Us non-Inv tanks are FORCED to take a PP for ONE power. That's totally broken.
Specifically for the fire tank which I am most familiar with they added fear to burn. Which in turn forced us to get provoke. Its an artificial solution.
The designers either need to:
a) Understand that the game is about AOE and not single target and get over trying to dance around the issue (by not swapping provoke and taunt or by adding AOE taunt to all attacks)
b) Re-design the game dramatically so its not AOE based.
I prefer solution 1...
Alternatively add provoke affect to powers already in the primary line. Invincibility has a provoke like affect so why not make Blazing Aura a provoke power. I just hate wasting a PP for one power and not have any choice. Because I suspect whatever changes are made if you needed/wanted provoke badly enuf to pick up an entire PP for it in the past than even after the changes you will still want provoke. This is the most simple and elegant solution I have read on the boards so I wonder why its not possible?
And for those complaining that the new changes may cause a horde of monsters to swamp the tank - don't pull a horde then. Know your limits.
But as I said I disagree with the whole "punch = passive provoke".
What if all tanker attacks could just take TAUNT enhancements? That way you could decide IF you want to have aggro from an attack, and which ones you wanted it on.
And to prevent using up an ACC or DAM slot with a TAUNT enhancement, allow DAM slots to do double duty with TAUNT enhancements. So if you have six slots, and they are filled with 5 DAMAGE and 1 ACC you could drop up to 5 TAUNT enhancements in that attack as well. (1 TAUNT for each DAMAGE)
? (am I overlooking something?)
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How about Ice Tankers? They don't make 'em any worse than Ice...wooeee.
* Hibernate shuts down your toggles for a whopping 5 seconds before it triggers = death
* Icicles doesn't do cold damage.
* Utterly useless at the 40+ range
* Spines / Invuln Scrappers are overwhelmingly better tankers than Ice / anything
* No high level mobs of importance deal cold damage.
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Excuse me? I think you're WAY out of line here, and terribly, terribly misinformed. I was going to continue leisurely reading the thread, perhaps see if anyone else pointed this out, but I couldn't wait.
* Hibernate doesn't shut off your toggles anymore. They stay on the whole duration, and Hibernate activates almost instantly anyway.
* Okay, this is true. But does a Damage Aura doing an oft-resisted damage type gimp a set? Silly me! I'm so naive. I thought the point of our primaries was DEFENSE. And plus, it still does DAMAGE, it's just resisted more often.
* Very, VERY untrue. Frawsty is still going on strong at level 50. In fact, he shines against enemies many tanks shake in their boots at. Like Sappers, for example.
* Once again, [censored]. Maybe your Spines/Invuln will tank better against Smashing and Lethal (Maybe). Let's try Cold, Energy, and Negative Energy. And even things like Fire, Psy and Toxic are less dangerous to us because many Tanks have some form of single-target damage mitigation stronger than an immobilize (Like Energy Melee's Stun or Total Focus, for example, Total Focus being prefered) that a Spines/Invul will not. The only thing a Spines/Invul will do better than an Ice Tank reliably is damage. As it should be.
* ...So? I can tank against things that don't do Cold damage any day of the week.
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How about Ice Tankers? They don't make 'em any worse than Ice...wooeee.
* Hibernate shuts down your toggles for a whopping 5 seconds before it triggers = death
* Icicles doesn't do cold damage.
* Utterly useless at the 40+ range
* Spines / Invuln Scrappers are overwhelmingly better tankers than Ice / anything
* No high level mobs of importance deal cold damage.
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Excuse me? I think you're WAY out of line here, and terribly, terribly misinformed. I was going to continue leisurely reading the thread, perhaps see if anyone else pointed this out, but I couldn't wait.
* Hibernate doesn't shut off your toggles anymore. They stay on the whole duration, and Hibernate activates almost instantly anyway.
* Okay, this is true. But does a Damage Aura doing an oft-resisted damage type gimp a set? Silly me! I'm so naive. I thought the point of our primaries was DEFENSE. And plus, it still does DAMAGE, it's just resisted more often.
* Very, VERY untrue. Frawsty is still going on strong at level 50. In fact, he shines against enemies many tanks shake in their boots at. Like Sappers, for example.
* Once again, [censored]. Maybe your Spines/Invuln will tank better against Smashing and Lethal (Maybe). Let's try Cold, Energy, and Negative Energy. And even things like Fire, Psy and Toxic are less dangerous to us because many Tanks have some form of single-target damage mitigation stronger than an immobilize (Like Energy Melee's Stun or Total Focus, for example, Total Focus being prefered) that a Spines/Invul will not. The only thing a Spines/Invul will do better than an Ice Tank reliably is damage. As it should be.
* ...So? I can tank against things that don't do Cold damage any day of the week.
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Considering how old the post you quoted was... both of you are correct, in the past Ice was all of the things listed when compared with the abilities of other powersets. Oh how things have changed.
all i ask is PLZ Statesman PLZ dont nerf the damage that we do. PLZ then i would have to always rely on a team :P
Rendezvous Fire/SR Scrapper 50 (Main), Sole Savior Kat/WP scrapper 50, Papillon Noir DM/SR Stalker 50
Cascavela NW 50
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* Utterly useless at the 40+ range
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as a matter of fact, ice/ tanks are some of the most common in the 40 plus range behind inv/
they r pretty darn good 
Rendezvous Fire/SR Scrapper 50 (Main), Sole Savior Kat/WP scrapper 50, Papillon Noir DM/SR Stalker 50
Cascavela NW 50
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Do you really want a visual effect every time you take a swing, in addition to what is already there? Thats a lot of constant screen noise.
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Yes, I would. My system can handle it, Perhaps if the Dev's add "Provoke Effect On/Off" command so peeps could choose on there own. I like shinny things that go Blink Blink.