On Patriot and Freedom badges...
By
artphobia,
Posted on: 2004-09-13 11:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I get all that plus Cajun, Irish, Russian, and probably some others I've not stumbled over yet 
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Cajun? How bland is it up there in the Washington State area?
I know I couldn't live without gumbo, jambalaya, red beans and rice, boudin, boiled crawfish, and raw oyster on the half shell.
Now I'm hungry again, and it's after lunch... grr...
Oh... on topic... Yay for "Freedom" badge. Good save by the devs...
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but it's a different country, just like Scotland or Wales.
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If you really want to get picky technically Wales isn't a country, it is a principality. Hence no representation in the Union Flag.
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Shouldn't you have to stand next to the French flag to get the "freedom" badge? Or maybe we could just get Freedom Fries at City of Gyros.
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Hmm. This makes sense because if it wasn't for the French, we'd all be speaking with English accents, and enjoying a big plate of Bangers & Mash with a frothy mug of warm beer. mmmm good 
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No offense to the British. I love the English, just not the food
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God yeah our food sucks.
I am all in favour of the American flag. The game is made by Americans played mostly by Americans. No problem here. Anyway, it's only a game and in this game I am playing a character IN AMERICA.
Consider it acting. Now can someone please show me the way to the nearest flamed grilled Whopper.
Would you like some Freedom Fries with your badge?
I thought Cajun was like louisiana way correct me if i'm wrong, i prefer being right.
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but it's a different country, just like Scotland or Wales.
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If you really want to get picky technically Wales isn't a country, it is a principality. Hence no representation in the Union Flag.
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There needs to be a leek placed on the Union Jack at once.
Just refreshed my memory...Wales isn't represented per se on the Royal Arms either, except insofar as various Welsh charges appear on the arms of the Prnce of Wales, along with the label, as differences from the monarch's bearing. Yep, boned again.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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Don't forget all those poor sods in public schools in the Midwest US being told that 'New England' is the 13 original colonies when its JUST the six states in the NE corner of the US, course they also pronounce foliage like its foilage. I also have met people that though the UK includes Ireland, that'll really provoke a response from anyone not in Northern Ireland.
Expect some ignorance on these matters from the US when our schools can't even teach our kids the geography of our own country. Besides your so small its like a group of states not countries over there 
I've never made it to Europe, closest I've gotten to international travel is Sherbrook, Quebec and Hawai'i. I'd love to see some of the stomping grounds of the rest of my ancestors, partially native american and grew up in the lands that my native ancestors roamed and made home.
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LoL Hey!! I just read that bit in the middle!! Bloody foreigners 
Yeah, the UK/GB/Ireland thing really seems tough for some people to get sorted out. I don't get uptight about it, just makes me laugh at the confusion, hehe, plus I can just wind up a couple of Glaswegian friends of mine by saying they are from Scotlandshire.
If you are interested btw, the difference between Great Britain and England/Scotland/Wales is why we don't have a Great Britain soccer team in the Olympics - doing so would effectively give up our right to play as individual nations in other international tournaments, and that is never going to happen.
There is a bit of turnabout as well - I live in Texas now and while back home we lump all Americans (as in, people from the USA) into the term 'yank', down here they would only consider it refering to those from the north. Learn something new everyday
Statesman, the new Patriot badge description just doesn't make sense.
Sure, the heroine may be a "citizen" of every country in the world, but patriotism doesn't have a whole lot to do with citizenship in a country; it has to do with allegiance to that one country and its set of values, over all others. I have little doubt, for instance, that there are currently citizens of the United States who don't feel particularly patriotic (in the strictest dictionary sense, not the politically-charged election slur sense) toward it. By its very definition, that means that the badge as it currently stands has nothing whatsoever to do with "patriotism."
I'll grant it's possible to be patriotic to more than one country if their values are particularly closely aligned, especially if you hold dual citizenship. But to be "patriotic" toward all countries on earth at the same time? Including the ones that are currently at war with each other, or are guilty of human rights violations (at the same time as the ones trying to stop those violations)? That truly is a superheroic feat...of schizophrenia.
You tried to make the badge all-inclusive, but that goes counter to the very idea of patriotism. What you should have done, and what you should do now, is go in another direction: make the badge generic. Just as the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is meant to represent all the soldiers in a particular war, make a memorial to all patriotic heroes, of whatever country. Either make the hero someone who died to save her own country--and don't say what country it was, so that everyone who gets the badge can feel sure that it was for his or her own country--or else make it generically symbolic of every hero who's ever fought for his own country. That way, at least, the badge would make some sense yet still be suitably all-inclusive.
Just my opinion.
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In the future, standing proudly beside the American flag grants a hero this badge.
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Firstly, thank you CuppaJoe for locking that original thread - it was starting to really bring me down reading the last few pages.
Secondly, will we now have a "stands proudly" emote we have to do to get the badge? Or will I still get it if I stand next to the flag indifferently?
Great Fix Statesman. Thanks for coming through again.
/em salute
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Statesman, the new Patriot badge description just doesn't make sense.
Sure, the heroine may be a "citizen" of every country in the world, but patriotism doesn't have a whole lot to do with citizenship in a country; it has to do with allegiance to that one country and its set of values, over all others. I have little doubt, for instance, that there are currently citizens of the United States who don't feel particularly patriotic (in the strictest dictionary sense, not the politically-charged election slur sense) toward it. By its very definition, that means that the badge as it currently stands has nothing whatsoever to do with "patriotism."
I'll grant it's possible to be patriotic to more than one country if their values are particularly closely aligned, especially if you hold dual citizenship. But to be "patriotic" toward all countries on earth at the same time? Including the ones that are currently at war with each other, or are guilty of human rights violations (at the same time as the ones trying to stop those violations)? That truly is a superheroic feat...of schizophrenia.
You tried to make the badge all-inclusive, but that goes counter to the very idea of patriotism. What you should have done, and what you should do now, is go in another direction: make the badge generic. Just as the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier is meant to represent all the soldiers in a particular war, make a memorial to all patriotic heroes, of whatever country. Either make the hero someone who died to save her own country--and don't say what country it was, so that everyone who gets the badge can feel sure that it was for his or her own country--or else make it generically symbolic of every hero who's ever fought for his own country. That way, at least, the badge would make some sense yet still be suitably all-inclusive.
Just my opinion.
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Intelligent post, I like it. I just want to say, it is possible that this heroine is being considered a patriot of Earth. Which makes things unfair for our demonic/angelic/alien heroes, I know....but you're playing a game made in Earth, set on Earth, produced by Earthicans, I don't know what to tell you! Geez
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Intelligent post, I like it. I just want to say, it is possible that this heroine is being considered a patriot of Earth. Which makes things unfair for our demonic/angelic/alien heroes, I know....but you're playing a game made in Earth, set on Earth, produced by Earthicans, I don't know what to tell you! Geez
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I considered that interpretation, but the badge description didn't seem to be taking that tack--and besides, IMO, to be a "patriot of the earth" you'd need for there to be a more cohesive earth (i.e. a world government) for them to be a patriot to. A man cannot serve two masters--let alone the dozens of "masters" there are in all the different countries.
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There is a bit of turnabout as well - I live in Texas now and while back home we lump all Americans (as in, people from the USA) into the term 'yank', down here they would only consider it refering to those from the north. Learn something new everyday
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I was about to mention that. Actually it's only people from the northeast United States that are considered "yanks".
Just had this discussion on another board.
I don't know how to put this in a manner that won't make most Americans take offense at it, so believe me when I say I don't mean to be offensive in any way.
I am a Canadian, and proud to be so, just as I am sure many US citizens are proud of their country. I don't associate the US flag with any concept of "Freedom" particularly. I don't feel any emotion at all when I see a US flag. So for me associating "Freedom" as a concept and standing beside the US flag is meaningless. I am on the edge of taking offense at the fact that I am supposed to stand beside a meaningless (to me) flag as a symbol of my character's concept of "Freedom". Its kinda like taking your natural pride and emotional associations with your national flag and shoving them down my throat so to speak.
I don't hate the US, and I have (literally) never met an American I didn't like or find friendly. I have visited the US, and its ok, although I have no desire to live there. While I respect the US and its citizens, I don't see it as any greater a symbol of freedom or democracy than I do my own country or dozen's of other countries in the world. I know many Americans like to think of themselves that way, but much of the rest of the world doesn't share that view particularly.
I would be happier if they dropped the concept of a Patriot/Freedom badge entirely. Its not a big thing for me, and I understand what the devs are probably trying to express - but it rubs the wrong way on all non-US players (and there are a fair number of us I expect) to be forced to support an American-centric view of what symbolizes Freedom.
How would you feel if you had to stand beside the Canadian Flag?
oh and while we are at it, how come there is no Maple Leaf symbol in the chest details choices. There's a fleur-de-lys...
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Shouldn't you have to stand next to the French flag to get the "freedom" badge? Or maybe we could just get Freedom Fries at City of Gyros.
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Hmm. This makes sense because if it wasn't for the French, we'd all be speaking with English accents, and enjoying a big plate of Bangers & Mash with a frothy mug of warm beer. mmmm good
Edit Note:
No offense to the British. I love the English, just not the food
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Warm Beer? what Britain did you come to?
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4) Work around: Why not have a zone/building that is just full of flags on the walls, paired with a dropdown menu in the ID that lists nations. Each char/toon at generation choses a nation of origin and must click on their nation's flag in the hall. If a character decides to change their country, they can go to the Representative or a Registrar in the Hall and change that part in their ID. They lose their badge, but can go to their new flag and get it back.
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Very Good Idea, we have a Origin/AT and Name in are ID, why not a Little Avatar with a Flag, and you can Choose your Nation!
I modelled my current Costume round Hero 1, so have a "Freedom" badge for standing next to a US Flag doesnt go down well with me :P
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No offense to the British. I love the English, just not the food
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umm i'm confused, since when does British mean English, there are 3 other countries in Britain you know and us other countries tend to find being called english insulting sorta like calling some 1 from U.S.A canadian or vice versa.
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3 Countries? Scotland, England, Wales, Oh!!!! and N.Ireland, or are you one of them thats been asleep for the past God knows how many Years of fighting.
Oh and Statesman, thanks for yet another swanky badge.
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I am all in favour of the American flag. The game is made by Americans played mostly by Americans. No problem here. Anyway, it's only a game and in this game I am playing a character IN AMERICA.
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AMEN! How crappy would movies be, at any time in history, if actors couldn't portray roles other than what they already are irl... Imagine, NO ONE playing any WWII German roles... NO ONE playing any cold war era russians... NO ONE singing any anthem other than their naturalized one...
It's pretty pathetic, this whole argument. My gods in heaven, hell, and purgatory, as well as many other planes of existence, people...and, apparently, I'm using that term loosely.
If this game was made by Brits, in Brittain, and it took place in London, and all the buildings were flying the Union Jack (that's what ya call it, right?), and they made a badge called the "Patriot" badge whereby you had to stand and salute the flag atop the Parliament building? I'd either do it to earn the badge, or not. Me personally? I'd do it. It's a [censored] game, for crying out loud.
Yes, if it was a russian game, based in russia, and my freakin' comic book character had to salute the good ol' hammer and sickle? Ya damn skippy, I'd do that too.! Again, it's a [censored] GAME!
Some people... It wasn't the devs bringing politics into the game...it was the players who can't separate an MMORPG from reality...
On another note, I like the Freedom Badge idea, too...
When do I get an Infinity badge? *hides!*
I feel much better about this situation now... Thanks States!
I haven't read all the posts on the other thread, because I don't have an hour to waste on something so ultimately silly...but I can't help myself; I absolutely have to say this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen people argue about in an online forum. (And anybody who's spent any amount of time in online forums knows that's saying quite a lot.)
The term "patriot," as defined by Bartleby.com, means "One who loves, supports, and defends one's country." The City of Heroes, as according to the game history, is located in the US. Hence, heroes defending said city (and by extension, country), are inherently patriots. If the City were set in Zimbabwe, I would logically expect to see a patriot badge next to the Zimbabwean flag and be just peachy-keen about getting it. MMORPG contains the phrase "role-playing game" as in portraying a character that is not yourself. Getting upset about receiving a patriot badge from a flag if you're not from the US is as silly as getting upset about being expected to slice bad guys with a broadsword if you personally are a pacifist. Game = not real.
So the argument was silly in the first place. The furor is that much more ridiculous. What's next, someone demanding the removal of the Doc Whedon badge because the text says it was a make-out spot, and they are offended by the implication of pre-marital relations? I mean really. Sheesh. It's a game, people. If you find yourself getting emotionally churned over something connected with it, that's probably a good sign that you should log and leave the house, maybe even go interact with some actual people in real-life settings.
To the potential flamer, feel free to do your worst; any impassioned name-calling would simply waste your time and prove my point. lol
To the Devs....wow, I have a whole new appreciation for how tough your job is now. I always knew people could be complete morons about really stupid things, but I'm always astonished at the new depths they can reach.
Thank you for putting up with all of us and creating a game that the majority of us are pleased to enjoy.
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Its not a big thing for me, and I understand what the devs are probably trying to express - but it rubs the wrong way on all non-US players (and there are a fair number of us I expect) to be forced to support an American-centric view of what symbolizes Freedom.
How would you feel if you had to stand beside the Canadian Flag?
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First, you are not forced to do anything. The badge is optional...if you don't want it, don't get it. You're not going to get any bonuses out of it...it's just a badge.
Second, YEAH if the game was based in some fictional city in Canada and the only way to get a particular badge was to stand by the Candian flag, then guess where you'll see me posing? It's a GAME, seriously...if it doesn't matter so much to you, then get over it already.
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Gang,
Sorry about the confusion regarding the Patriot badge. Quite simply, I had wanted to shift the badge to something a little more universal so that everyone, regardless of nationality, could feel like a Patriot.
What hasnt been posted is that we had planned to replace it with the new one the Freedom badge. No term better fits the ideals of America and all it stands for. In the future, standing proudly beside the American flag grants a hero this badge.
In games, some times some fixes get made quicker than others. In this case, we needed new art for the Freedom badge and so it takes longer than shifting the current Patriot badge to the statue inside City Hall.
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Seriously, guys. I have no idea how this guy can keep his cool after all the flame-spitting mutants vomitted so much bile over the subject. Not only that, but it seems he's come up with a solution that I at least see no loopholes in, and I'm not even American.
Statesman, if you're at the helm of this ship, then I'm willing to go wherever you sail to and I'm throwing my map and compass overboard. That's how much this means to me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Just had this discussion on another board.
I don't know how to put this in a manner that won't make most Americans take offense at it, so believe me when I say I don't mean to be offensive in any way.
I am a Canadian, and proud to be so, just as I am sure many US citizens are proud of their country. I don't associate the US flag with any concept of "Freedom" particularly. I don't feel any emotion at all when I see a US flag. So for me associating "Freedom" as a concept and standing beside the US flag is meaningless. I am on the edge of taking offense at the fact that I am supposed to stand beside a meaningless (to me) flag as a symbol of my character's concept of "Freedom". Its kinda like taking your natural pride and emotional associations with your national flag and shoving them down my throat so to speak.
I don't hate the US, and I have (literally) never met an American I didn't like or find friendly. I have visited the US, and its ok, although I have no desire to live there. While I respect the US and its citizens, I don't see it as any greater a symbol of freedom or democracy than I do my own country or dozen's of other countries in the world. I know many Americans like to think of themselves that way, but much of the rest of the world doesn't share that view particularly.
I would be happier if they dropped the concept of a Patriot/Freedom badge entirely. Its not a big thing for me, and I understand what the devs are probably trying to express - but it rubs the wrong way on all non-US players (and there are a fair number of us I expect) to be forced to support an American-centric view of what symbolizes Freedom.
How would you feel if you had to stand beside the Canadian Flag?
oh and while we are at it, how come there is no Maple Leaf symbol in the chest details choices. There's a fleur-de-lys...
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I don't know how to put this in a manner that won't make most Canadians take offense at it, so believe me when I say I don't mean to be offensive in any way.
I don't hate Canada, and I have (literally) never met a Canadian I didn't like or find friendly. I have visited the Canada, and its ok, although I have no desire to live there.
This is pretty typically Canadian. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Don't take the badge. If everyone would turn to the left, now the right, I'm sure they will notice the complete absence of a gun barrel pointed at their head.
Where is the outrage at the Italian flag on The Family badge??? I guess my sensabilities are not as "Selective" as some others who play this game. 
As to why there is no Maple Leaf symbol, why not ask why there is no Star of David symbol? Why is there no Brazilian Constalation symbol? Why are you only asking about the Maple Leaf? Sorry, but the rest of the world doesn't necessarily share the same view of entitlement that many Canadians do. It's not big deal to me, since I don't rely on Canada for much of anything, but it rubs the wrong way on all non-Canadian players (and there are a fair number of us I expect) to be forced to support an Canadian-centric view of what symbols belong in the game.
How would you feel if you had to wear the American Flag on your chest? Well that's the whole point, you're not forced to.
That badge offers no more advantage to a player in the game than a Maple Leaf on a characters chest would. It's a matter of choice.
And why was there no cry of foul play about the United States flag on top of city hall from the very outset of play? Well we all know that one.
FOTM
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Where is the outrage at the Italian flag on The Family badge?
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Uh, I don't know squat about badges.
Is this a joke or did they do that?
Because that will seriously piss off a lot more people :-).
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I thought Cajun was like louisiana way correct me if i'm wrong, i prefer being right.
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Yes, they are from that way.
These people originally come from a french area of Canada, outside of Quebec, called Acadia.
Acadians -> Cajuns.
Don't forget all those poor sods in public schools in the Midwest US being told that 'New England' is the 13 original colonies when its JUST the six states in the NE corner of the US, course they also pronounce foliage like its foilage. I also have met people that though the UK includes Ireland, that'll really provoke a response from anyone not in Northern Ireland.
Expect some ignorance on these matters from the US when our schools can't even teach our kids the geography of our own country. Besides your so small its like a group of states not countries over there
I've never made it to Europe, closest I've gotten to international travel is Sherbrook, Quebec and Hawai'i. I'd love to see some of the stomping grounds of the rest of my ancestors, partially native american and grew up in the lands that my native ancestors roamed and made home.