Magnitude - or, why Johnny can't hold Dr. Vahzilok

GlaziusF · 07-02-2004 12:06 PM

So you want to deal with status effects? Sure, we all do! Whether it's inflicting them on mobs or making sure mobs don't inflict them on you, understanding status effects and the way they were can be key to avoiding unnecessary frustration in City of Heroes.

The status effects I can safely talk about are Immobilize, Stun, Hold, Sleep, and Confuse. Knockback, Slow, and Snare either don't operate under this precise system or use a vastly mutated version of this.

A brief introduction, first. Stuns prevent action - this includes activating powers, using inspirations, and maintaining powers that need to be toggled on and off, like Sprint. They also indirectly slow movement, since all you can do is stagger around. (Though if by the vagaries of stunning something mid-jump, it'll continue the motion of the jump and then stagger around on the ground.) Immobilize prevents motion, but that's all. Hold is the best of both worlds, combining lack of motion and lack of action. Sleep is like a hold that breaks if the sleeper is hit. Confuse is a beast of its own - in some ways better than hold, because while the mob is free to move and act, it's on your side, and will attack other mobs instead of you.

But all these effects operate under an (undocumented in the manual) system called magnitude. Which has been brought up on these boards before, but doesn't show up in a search of this forum.

Tres odd.

Anyway.

Every one of those status effects I just detailed has a magnitude. It generally varies between 1 and 3. And so does villain resistance - minions are usually 1, lieutenants 2, bosses 3, and monsters and arch villians are somewhere around 100. Anyway, the first rule of magnitude is:

Unless the total magnitude of an effect is greater than the villain's resistance, nothing will happen. The power looks like it hit, and will do damage and secondary effects as though it had hit, but the status effect will just be kinda waiting. If _you_ want to defend yourself against these effects, the simplest way is to pop a discipline inspiration and increase your resistance to 3, 6, or even 11 for the highest one in the line. Other powers that provide resistance to certain effects work the same way - they increase your resistance number.

But wait, 11 resistance? Don't magnitudes only go up to 3? Well, yes, individual magnitudes do. So now for the second rule of magnitude:

So long as the power remains active, further powers will stack magnitude. So that magnitude 3 hold that didn't affect a boss? It's still on him. And if you fire off another hold before the first one ends, that'll be magnitude 6, and the boss will be held - as long as both holds are in effect. Oh, and those powers (Barrage and Thunder Kick come to mind) that say they stun 'in conjunction with other attacks' but never seem to do it on their own? They're magnitude 1, and work really well for pushing a stun that doesn't quite hold (a mag 2 Energy Punch on a lieutenant or a mag 3 Stun on a boss) over to full dizzy goodness.

There's one last thing to explain about magnitude - why Rikti Rifles only stun sometimes, why Aberrant Eremites can punch through Discipline and hold you with only one attack. May as well make it rule three of magnitudes:

Magnitudes can have a percentage chance to take effect. Sometimes it _is_ just luck. Most controller holds/sleeps/stuns (like the ones the Eremites ape) have, in addition to the always-on magnitude 3, an additional magnitude 1 effect with a small chance of occuring (or a 50% chance for the AOE mind control sleep/hold) This extra magnitude stacks normally. Attacks like Energy Punch and Whirling Hands, but also simple Boxing, have a percentage chance to inflict their stuns - as do Rikti pistols and rifles.

So these are the basics of magnitude, without digging too deeply into the stuff you'll have to buy the Prima Guide for.

I hope it explains some of the things you see in game.

--GF

Ex_Libris · 07-02-2004 02:01 PM

Thanks, this is great info. I just want to point out that sleep doesn't break on a hit, but rather it breaks on attack. That is, the instant you start an attack, the sleep breaks, whether you actually hit or miss. This is very different than some of the others games out there, so people should be careful, especially around Mind Controllers.

GlaziusF · 07-06-2004 10:52 AM

Kicking this back up, since it can prevent a lot of frustration.

--GF

VoodooCompany · 07-06-2004 11:21 AM

The word stun is used, but a lot of other people use the word disorient. And as far as I can tell, this is one and the same.

In game, your character will have the word "stun" float above his head if he is effected. But there are no powers with a "stun" effect...there is only disorient.

I find that just odd.

I've already forgotten about most of you

GlaziusF · 07-06-2004 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The word stun is used, but a lot of other people use the word disorient. And as far as I can tell, this is one and the same.

In game, your character will have the word "stun" float above his head if he is effected. But there are no powers with a "stun" effect...there is only disorient.

I find that just odd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. The 'disorient' enhancements are filed alphabetically where stun would be. Seems there was a partial vocabulary change that didn't quite make it all the way across.

Disorient = stun. I can see why they might have called it 'disorient', though, because 'stun' is a more generic world that could legitimately apply to being held by a Tesla Cage, for example.

--GF

Ineffable_Bob · 09-29-2004 09:10 AM

Well written. Now if there was just a list of what magnitude all the powers the cause status effects use....

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Ineffable_Bob · 09-30-2004 09:42 AM

Geko posted some good info on how this works (quoted here so that it sticks around when that link gets deleted):

[ QUOTE ]
No change to Integration. NO Nerf. No bug. No change to CoTs.

You have a base value to each Mez/status effects of -1. If that number goes over 0, you are mezed (Hold, Sleep, whatever). Integration and similar powers give you -15 protection to each of these effects. A typical single target mez power (like fossilize, a Hold) adds 3 points to your base value. So Integration will protect you from 5 such attacks. A 6th will Hold you.

The higher level you are, the more protection Integration and similar powers offers you (they get better with level) you have. If the foes are higher level than you, they add more points and can mez you more easily (lower level foes will have a harder time mezzing you). Each type of mez effect (disorient, sleep, hold, etc) is calculated separately that is, a Sleep will not stack with a Hold, but all Holds stack. So, a Hold from a Block of Ice is the same as a hold from a Fossilize, so both stack towards Holding.

This works the same for villains vs heroes or heroes vs villains.

Check this out. This is a hypothetical example of what might happen (not the exact numbers at all, just an example). The numbers on the left is a time scale starting from 0 seconds:

0s : Hero Base Value for Hold is -1
1s : Hero turns on Integration. Base Hold value is now -16
2s : Hero is hit with a Block of Ice power for a Magnitude of 3. Hold lasts 10 seconds. Hero's base value is now -13 and is not held.
3s : Hero is hit with a Fossilize for a Magnitude of 3. Hold lasts 10 seconds. Hero's base value is now -10 and is not held.
4s : Hero is hit with a 2nd Fossilize for a Magnitude of 3. Hold lasts 10 seconds. Hero's base value is now -7 and is not held.
5s : Hero is hit with a 3rd Fossilize for a Magnitude of 3. Hold lasts 10 seconds. Hero's base value is now -4 and is not held.
6s : Hero is hit with a 4th Fossilize for a Magnitude of 3. Hold lasts 10 seconds. Hero's base value is now -1 and is not held.
7s : Hero is hit with a 5th Fossilize for a Magnitude of 3. Hold lasts 10 seconds. Hero's base value is now 2. The Hero is Held and Integration turns off.
8s : Hero still Held
9s : Hero still Held
10s: Hero still Held
11s: Hero still Held
12s: Hero still Held
13s: Block of Ice where off. Heros base value is now. Hero is still held.
14s: The first Fossilize wares off. Heros base value is now. Hero is still held.
15s: The 2nd Fossilize wares off. Heros base value is now. Hero is still held.
16s: The 3rd Fossilize wares off. Heros base value is now. Hero is still held.
17s: The 4th Fossilize wares off. Heros base value is now. Hero is still held.
18s: The 5th Fossilize wares off. Heros base value is now. Hero is free.

The above is also actually more complex because Integration also offers Resistance as well as Protection. While Protection reduces your Base value and make it harder for you to get Held, Resistance reduces the duration of a stacking Mez attack. So if you have 50% resistance to a Mez, Mez effects ware off in half the time. So while Integration is Active, all Hold Durations are at half. The initial Fossilize powers in the above example will actually ware off in 5 seconds instead of 10 until you are brought above 0, then you are Held, Integration is disables, and the remaining durations of the Holds return to normal. So the math does get a little more complex than in the example above, but the basic principal remains the same.

One last thing. If you have a question about a power, or think it is not working properly, please feel free to ask. We always do our best to address them. If not us, we have a great community that can often answer your question. But please do me a favor and dont title your post as So and so power was Nerfed. Its never a good assumption as we always do our very best to let you know when we change anything. It also just starts rumors, upsets people. In the end, it just makes it harder for us to sort through the boards to find any real problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume the last few numbers should be:

7s: After integration turns off, Hero base value is 17
13s: base value 14
14s: base value 11
15s: base value 8
16s: base value 5
17s: base value 2
18s: base value -1

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Kull_WarThorn · 09-30-2004 01:00 PM

Great post and combined with the information from dev starts to shed some light.

Does anyone know what the resistance modifier numbers are for the commonly used status effect protections like combat jumping, acrobatics, weave, US, Unstoppable, etc.?

Jade_Dragon · 09-30-2004 04:05 PM

An excellent post. Much needed around here.

Just to apply this to the problems people have been having with chain stunning lately, this should make it obvious that the problem is not being hit, but the NUMBER of hits. If you are hit just once by a Nebel Fist (for instance) it's not always going to stun you. But when you are hit by a barrage of stuns from an army of 5th column that surround you, you're chain stunned.

Many of the most problematic offenders (like Rikti) have a high enough "fire rate" to hit you a number of times.

And I know I'm guilty of using the word "stun" to refer to disorient. It seems to always be called Disorient in the Power Descriptions. I guess "stun" is just easier to type, though. I often call Immobilize "root" for the same reason.

BTW, is Snare slow attacks and Slow slow movement, or is it the other way around?

Jade_Dragon · 09-30-2004 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Great post and combined with the information from dev starts to shed some light.

Does anyone know what the resistance modifier numbers are for the commonly used status effect protections like combat jumping, acrobatics, weave, US, Unstoppable, etc.?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, as far as I know, Combat Jumping and Weave give NO protection from status effects. Only Acrobatics (out of the Power Pool) does. Stimulant allows you to raise the status resitance of someone ELSE.

However, it is obviously true that if you don't get HIT you can't get STUNNED. So Defense protections are some defense against status effects since you are hit less often, and thus have less chance to build up magnitude.

Psypunk · 09-30-2004 04:25 PM

Sleep does not break on an attack, it breaks on a hit. What you're referring to was changed in the last update.

Rakeeb · 09-30-2004 06:59 PM

As to Slow and Snare effects:

These are Debuffs. Debuffs differ from Magnitude statuses in that they take full effect immediately, scale with level, and do not stack upon themselves from the same ability.

Other Debuffs are -Def, -Res, -Recovery, -Regeneration, -Speed, -Recharge, -Dam. There are likely more, but I don't know them off the top of my head. Some of these are very rare but are in game -- -regeneration, for instance, is only in Malta hands.

Eponymous_Bosch · 09-30-2004 07:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great post and combined with the information from dev starts to shed some light.

Does anyone know what the resistance modifier numbers are for the commonly used status effect protections like combat jumping, acrobatics, weave, US, Unstoppable, etc.?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, as far as I know, Combat Jumping and Weave give NO protection from status effects. Only Acrobatics (out of the Power Pool) does. Stimulant allows you to raise the status resitance of someone ELSE.

[/ QUOTE ]

CJ adds resistance to immobilization. Weave does not protect against status effects. Acrobatics adds resistance to holds and allows avoidance of most knockbacks.

GlaziusF · 10-01-2004 07:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As to Slow and Snare effects:

[/ QUOTE ]
Right click on an effect icon and select "info". If it says -speed, then it just slows your walking down. -recharge makes your powers come back slower.

--GF

GlaziusF · 10-01-2004 07:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well written. Now if there was just a list of what magnitude all the powers the cause status effects use....

[/ QUOTE ]
Every controller effect has magnitude 3, often with a chance to critical to 4. The "dedicated-effect" blaster and melee powers that do very little damage also have magnitude 3.

Anything else that says it has a chance to stun is usually magnitude 2. This actually includes Barrage and Thunder Kick now, which is kinda a shame. I missed them back when they were guaranteed 1s and I knew I could stun a boss with them.

About the only effect that has a lower magnitude than it "should" is the Dark Pit of defenders, which is only a magnitude 2 stun.

Some extra trivia - spine scrappers do a magnitude 2/3 immobilize. Work the numbers on _that_.

--GF

Intangibility and fear also work this way, and most powers I know of that cause either are magnitude 3.

Jade_Dragon · 10-01-2004 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
CJ adds resistance to immobilization. Weave does not protect against status effects. Acrobatics adds resistance to holds and allows avoidance of most knockbacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

[makes mental note to use CJ on my Tanker more often]

You're right, though, I had completely forgotten that Acrobatics didn't protect against all status effects, but it had been split between the two. I don't know if either protects against stun or sleep. (It doesn't say that they do)

Rockefeller_NA · 10-01-2004 04:12 PM

So, do different types of magnitude stack. For example, if I hit a mob with a sleep, with a magnitude of 1, and then a hold with a magnitude of one is it now magnitude 2? Do they stack or is it type specific?

Deadgirl · 10-02-2004 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sleep does not break on an attack, it breaks on a hit. What you're referring to was changed in the last update.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sleep breaks on ANY change to hp. So if an ally is asleep, you can wake 'em up with a heal.

DG

GlaziusF · 10-02-2004 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, do different types of magnitude stack. For example, if I hit a mob with a sleep, with a magnitude of 1, and then a hold with a magnitude of one is it now magnitude 2? Do they stack or is it type specific?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's type specific. Otherwise Unyielding Stance would be absolutely useless considering it hits the user with a magnitude 100 immobilize effect...

--GF

ServantofRaKur · 10-02-2004 02:08 PM

Bit o Trivia to add... my Energy Devices blasters Web Grenade does a mag 2 Immob that also -recycle -speed when the immob wears off... it recycles in under 10 seconds with perma hasten so can be stacked highenough that I can immob permanatly a boss mob +3 levels with no problem. (well other then its still attacking me and kicking my butt cuz i'm a blaster with no defense)

So sometimes dropping 1 immobilize on a boss will be more effective then web grenade is ment to be. Since 1 attack of web grenade won't usually hold the boss he is slowed and his recycle time is lessened meaning he'll get in fewer attacks.

More effective then Caltrops

Nickinator · 05-16-2005 06:00 PM

Hey, great guide. I learned alot. Just one question - how can we judge the magnitude of an attack?

Teeth · 06-10-2005 10:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, great guide. I learned alot. Just one question - how can we judge the magnitude of an attack?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's yours, fire it at different mobs. If it consistently takes bosses and isn't the first power in a controller powerset, tell me what it is. If it takes Lt.'s in one shot but not bosses (most of the time), it's mag 3. If it takes Minions but not Lt.'s in one hit (most of the time), it's mag 2. If it takes two hits to hold minions most of the time, it's mag 1.

If it's an enemy's, about my only suggestion is to try confusing the enemy in question and repeating the above experiment with HIS moves. Really, though, I doubt it matters in that case .

GlaziusF · 08-31-2005 11:05 AM

Thread necroing a year later, because this is important for everyone to know. Since there are posts from over a year there's bound to be some inaccurate information, but as far as I know the basic mechanic hasn't changed.

A couple little clarifications. Fear and sleep break on damage. This means that, for example, being in the center of a roaring snowstorm won't wake anybody up or give them a burst of desparation out of their fear, but as soon as the freezing rain starts stinging all bets are off.

--GF

McBeast · 01-31-2006 09:50 AM

Great post, and vital for Mind Control Controllers to be aware of.

Khorne_NA · 01-31-2006 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
arch villians are somewhere around 100.

--GF

[/ QUOTE ]

I was on the moonfire task force, and all thorugh the battle, our 'troller kept trying to hold Arakn. She finally Mezzed her after 10 min of trying. =P