recalx

Originally Posted by MisterD

Was just arguing about this with a friend. If you look at stf vs rsf, in a bubble..rsf IS harder. The fact people still fail stf (and my friend said shes failed more) is more due to people being idiots and having NO idea of the type of team make up a smooth STF actually NEEDS. That and stupid people wanting to take out towers in the wrong order.

And how can you even compare the final fights? 8 Heroes, which you cant split up, and buff each other...vs ONE av that you can 'tank' with a jetpack?? Such an epic fight that.

Originally Posted by Eldagore

I want to comment on the OP with just a bit on the rest of this thread.

The tankers role needs to be evaluated based on the current game. History of the game and what tanks did 5 years ago is great, and should be considered when thinking about how players react to changes etc. But really, when you go to roll a new lvl 1 tank right now, what you did 5 years ago really doesnt matter anymore. the game evolved.

that said, the tanker roll as an AT is simple. To provide a playstyle different then that of scrappers, brutes and Stalkers. At this, the tank AT succeeds- on its face. No other AT is as easy to make into a very tough, takes a beating without a sweat character. it is true that specific IO bonus and build considerations can blur the lines, but, in general tanks can be made tougher still using the same methods.

Whether or not this is a "required attribute" for team play is largely irrelevent; no AT has a "required" attribute. They do have pro's and con's, and some do certain things better then others, but this is not Everquest in tights. A team of 8 tanks can beat pretty much whatever in the game, a team of blasters can, etc. Outside of content specifically designed to be extra difficult, or designed specifically for mixed teams. Usually, these require force multipliers to succeed.


Now then, that said i think there is something to be said as for "what do players feel a tank should do on a team" and also how that compares to "how do players actually play tanks".

to me, the tank is the extra durable point man. Solo, the tank is the AT used to make super tough characters that like to get in to the fray and throw punches. On a team, its pretty much the same thing really, with the added mechanic of being able to help protect your teammates. All the aggro gathering tools make it possible. the methods used and the varying degrees of success that follow are on the player.

the tank is the point man. A good tank drives the team- as such a good tank will have to gauge and trust his team mates possibly more then any other AT which is a little odd considering how durable the tank is. The tank will be the first one in, and will set the pace. The tank will use AOE and taunt to help manage aggro, and position enemies. This of course, is where the whole subject of "what do tanks need" gets its foundation.

because

"Brutes can do it too!! Scrappers do it almost as good and do tons more dmg!!" This is true...sort of. it is a matter of deciding how much gray area should be allowed. After all, a peacebringer can hit the res cap easily on a team, and there are enough buffs and debuff mechanics in this game a team full of defenders can make mincemeat out of hoardes of foes and laugh and eat cake while they do it. But, it takes some special circumstances or team composition etc to accomplish this. I think the biggest beef here, out of all the AT comparisons, is the gray area between brutes/tanks/scrappers is too big. The amount of "special circumstances" required to effectivley allow the non tank AT's to perform that roll of point man and aggro manager is too low.


now, that said, that isnt really a problem of itself. in fact, the idea that the dev team of City of could create such a situation in a game with such an unprecedented amount of force multiplying mechanics is really profound. City of really has pioneered this aspect of MMO mechanics and balance.

So then, what does one do to give the tank AT that little something special that makes the AT play differently enough from the other melee AT to make it feel more unique? IMO, the answer will not be found anywhere in the realm of AT modifiers. it used to be found in available powersets a long time ago, but proliferation and CoV has eliminated that. it used to be gauntlet and taunt effectivness, and AT modifyers and caps, but CoV to some extent, and IO's to a much larger extent removed that. So, they added bruising. Bruising was something, but not enough at all.

The answer falls in the AT inherent ability and how it has essentially been massively diluted by giving brutes so much taunt ability. Now, they can not take that away from them as the fury mechnic is balanced around it. They need to give tankers a new mechanic.

IMO, it needs to be some kind of mix of kheldian team based mechanics(honestly the peacebring AT inherent would fit tanks to a point except the mez part) and somthing else that yes I will say it, specifically affects dmg output- though mostly for solo purposes and AT uniqueness rather then team dmg output. For instance, once upon a time like 5 years ago i read a suggestion that tanks get a dmg bonus to objects or non-living entities like robots. because you know, superman would cut loose on stuff when he knew no one was going to actually die from it. Now I am not saying that is the right mechanic, BUT something to that effect, an outside the box AT mechanic is needed here.

This would solve the tanker woes. it is also going to be really difficult to get something going on these lines in a game that is this old and established. but it is possible. The tanker AT is old, and stuck in a game designed 7 years ago that doesnt exist anymore. The Tankr At needs a new inherent mechanic that brings it into the "new" game we have now. No more taunt bots, herd bots, or well, tank really. not by the Everquest standard anyway. We need a City of point man AT.


On that note, perhaps a new thread for brainstorming such new inherent mechanics is needed?

Originally Posted by Vox Populi

Melee ATs tend to solo better than buff/debuff ATs (yes, I realize there's exceptions), so I have no problem with the latter being more team-friendly.

Tankers are a nice balance in that they're a support AT that also solos well.

Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno

Your welcome.

Originally Posted by Daknah

If everyone had the def/res DR numbers as scrappers that would make it more interesting as well

Originally Posted by Rikti

Ok bro sorry I haven't kept up with this game like you have. I was under the impression that storms weren't nearly as effective as they once were and so were kins. Sorry if I was wrong, I haven't exactly played a million hours since i13. I would experiment with **** myself and form my own opinions, but it's kinda hard to win with anything when you're broke and have no means of farming PvP IOs (which seems to be the standard for anyone who has money - again, tell me in a non-dickish way if I'm wrong).

Edit: I guess I should stop posting here, since apparently anyone who quit the game for a lengthy period of time isn't allowed to talk lest they be wrong. God forbid you be like Katalyst or whoever else that is actually helpful with their posts without being an *******. I quit this game over 3 years ago and came back and moved a couple of characters to Freedom about a month ago. I feel I've been pretty humble whenever I lose a duel (which happens most of the time these days), yet whenever I ask a dumb question or make an incorrect comment you and the gang try to drive me away from this game again because people that don't know every detail of i13, i14, i15, etc. etc. are a waste of space or something. ****.

Originally Posted by Rikti

tbh I miss things like my storm controllers or kins being good in the arena more than I miss zone PvP w/o TS and HD, but I know I'm the minority there.

Originally Posted by Ironblade

Nah, at most I'll experience mild contempt at your rudeness.
You've already been modsmacked at least once in this thread that I've noticed.

Originally Posted by Rikti

I thought you were a laser.

Originally Posted by mauk2

Erm....

I'm pretty sure using third-party programs to play the game is pretty solid banning territory. But maybe I'm wrong?

Regardless, I sure as hell ain't gonna do it.

Originally Posted by Ironblade

Do your own research. Yeah, the self-rez breaks targeting. And this does not create the slightest hindrance to the farming.

Originally Posted by Rikti

^ This, plus reroll as a scrapper.

Originally Posted by lll Phoenix lll

Dude are you f*cking serious? You are asking them to nerf incarnates in pvp? omg

Originally Posted by Void

If possible, flag the uninterruptible version of AS to be PVE only. Have the pvp version still be interruptible so as to not mess with MY ASing while out of/in to hide. Problem solved.

Originally Posted by The_Masque

What I found funny, was how you went from trying to be so serious about getting a league going and a channel to where you stand now.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

It would be an either/or for the whole group.

If the consensus is Costume Code, I can do the Rula-Shin costume code.

As to competitive prizing, the goal of offering costume codes is to incentivize participation as opposed to rewarding only the winners. If you guys have prizing you want to award as the organizers of the event, more power. For Paragon's lot, we just want to show our appreciation for those who are participating in PvP.

In before "show us your appreciation by removing HD and TS."