Werner
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Posts
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Broad Sword if you don't want to go Katana. I prefer Katana, but it's not so superior that I'd let it get in the way of concept. You can get a rather insane level of survivability. As far as AV killing, I took out 11 Praetorian Archvillains in a row on my Katana/Dark pre I19 - no temps, no inspirations, no deaths. With inherent fitness, incarnate powers and a level shift, I should be much tougher now. Offensively, though, it's only so-so.
As far as the ITF, I ran him through last night I think it was. No deaths, no problems. In fact, after they took the woman to the pedestal, most of the team bailed, and I stayed on the opposite side of the map and took on probably an aggro cap in bosses for quite a few minutes. I used one inspiration - a purple when I got hit with some massive defense debuff.
You can do pretty well on a budget. You can do insanely well if you have insane amounts of influence. Here's my unlimited budget build:
Code:And here's a budget build by Ramia Angriffe with a few tweaks by Iggy Kamakaze. It still hits the highlights like soft capping defense to all positions with a single hit of Divine Avalanche, though there are some definite differences.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1446;719;1438;HEX;| |78DA6593EB6E125110C7CF7211B9B5A594DEE885DEB8968515BC1B9B6A35A92D49B| |5EA3743D6F614D622908598F69B2F6034D5E80B68D5C7F0294CD417F0D2EA0B189C| |9D99E2266C20BFB333E7FF3F67E6EC29EDAD048478BA2494BEEB35BDD52A6F6E997| |AB3294D7749AF185BA1E59ADC93462C1B5BD52EC66AC613E91142444E26954BB226| |A5BAA6B7F5BA1EED4657E48EACB7A4BAA29BBBE565F371C30CADD6ABD294F5B67A3| |2F06F341A35F566CDA854DB411A5B43A35EE9C7B775A96F4BB355359A8193F72624| |43379AC6967AADB1BD5F2EE9ADB634F747614369F83FB376864FC72DE20E2134E14| |8125208579A90419CFA04088B94A55258957362268F38AD11CE207C0544B6884883| |4A6195F21D8C2685EF0722F093F00BD1774438466440E52495CB59542CA3813C625| |C43CC14107367117E98EEA68284FB1B6EFA05843C8A031D3C57001EA718640E9D67| |3E12E8154193455078694DE11D51AC6D3C87909F7DFD9748E48558900B0AB2D1003| |90CFE15966A987630FA05B1F8159105593F36A2E3EEBF40B2F1CB989A18745AB289| |3B6832B549B88B380059888F2A44ED9BA2F6C5A87D316A5F8CDA3743ED534115A63| |D2A61DEE33053815C846B8A74E0114E888CF0EC91AB346B94F9127263BCFED80EB6| |6BAE42A822E60D02B5727E17910355941DA3E7C829FE190B72416A925393BCA538B| |5EF15A4A679AD69AA354EB526A8D604D59AA05A53546B0854B36C38CB8629320C43| |6A818F6AE12DF63AF50E913E24BC277CA093FA88180655920D936CB848869B70501| |9EE5D2683A51E06855079B67A0B0609919BC12F7F087CF23C39BF86A10957F7E2C1| |CFEAFDBA3D9245C70D175F3308293869DAD5BD799D0D9FB5128D1FD8C6BA6DFCD03| |6F60EC04D22B7CE91AF7B178532878B1DDB43490CFDF6D96EEC6DAC3B4B9F66963E| |CD1C7D9AB97B08ED3EE2CF7F954379838DD45E130E10F99EDAD33D11AD2752B447B| |C6854E899B4148638D7FB0FD2E6E811| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Not that other combinations suck, but for survivability, I'd go with Katana or Broad Sword.Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1428;704;1408;HEX;| |78DA6593ED4E13511086CF6EB7D67E534A2D9F6541B0B485A50BFC3728125130441| |2FF99BAD06DBB52DA665B13F9E70D180D9878038A7A19DE867A037E80DE80A9B3F3| |1E6A93366D9EED7B66CE3B33E7ECCEF38D88102F6E0A2576BB6EB5DBA5BD03D76AB| |56C37F0C0EA3C73ADFAD843EBC8B1F4F546D5752A155B2FE85BD5EAB17ED42C0784| |10A9CBF0D28E5DB76DE3BED5B11AD6444FDDB02B76A36D1B1B967B585A778F9A6E6| |2AB51B35DBBD1312E1F22BBCD66DDD8B6AD96D3A846F9CFA653AD75E85FFC72A96C| |BBED9AD30A63B5EE2D27EEB49C03E356B37C5CDAB1DA1DDB3D1EA58272F47BE955C| |69FAE5FD80453A865E00943DB675C39608C7C5685488A9C97A57096264C85035609| |53E2EA0A506431B4C6C80764349928DF552F40FBC108FD64447E01E78CD805A3405| |93E98081FF6BB46925F4AFEBFC28B7A4D52405178EFC03D96627719435B8C61F431| |9C612CA778A345CA0ACA8D82692E5925298C2245B84B1F9126250A45897E53BDBCA| |12F8C255A89C3D4171FF679E9A37120C618DFE43D4F282E211B4FA0F149343E89C6| |33683C83C64D346E505612C5F99321AE77248CFE234094311E63E871868FB252F24| |C52DEB8B2E2BA09AC00AB8CE5358646E169699286898EDD67E035039319982CC1E4| |94B2C6644363159EE85C9571A30638C05346F690F18AB226E468270A2C25489A92F| |653B0CFC05E87611E55E4E19B47316F286B5ADA4F639E59CC338B79E630C11CC69A| |C3588394350B2F75F62B1FA089E334719C2605CCF30DED8A79D4172669419EFD02A| |2969193A49582ACA1F08EA5C5F7C019F00177E423F089B147D7C290233060714677| |AB28EF60F111F737A9F5DE46FA7A77707B40D9D57A2F93505899D67A6F633738442| |F0D56BBE72192A581B2C49E17FDD2024BBFFBA57B7C37FEFC9754E584EB9F7B0B9C| |328A0355E507147340591B505607BB0B791347FD8FFB9EADBEE7FDBEE77F1B2AF12| |B| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:Hmmm, well, there was a classic thread on this sort of comparison, but it was before the Fury changes. It used to be a sticky, but we got it removed since it was out of date and no longer relevant. I'm afraid I don't have a specific thread to point to, and would just be searching.Originally Posted by Jakarr
Could ya point me to a thread about it kinda intrested.
As Hopeling indicates, your thinking/math isn't strictly wrong, but it's too simplistic for the "real world", applying directly only to completely unenhanced characters running no abilities that buff their damage beyond the very lowest base. So typically only very low level characters.Quote:Originally Posted by Jakarr
Way I look at it in 5 second I am normally 100% damage. Damage scale Scrapper is at a 1.125 while a Brute is at a .75. So 100 damage attack a brute will do 75 while a Scrapper does 115, Add in 5 seconds of combat for fury and ya get a easy 100% for 150 Damage. More combat time more damage, I in about 10s I can grab 150+%. Kinda just wanting to know if my thinking/Math is wrong here.
As a very rough rule of thumb, let's say that about 1/3 of the damage of an end game Scrapper is base damage (this will vary significantly by build). The rest comes from enhancements, procs, and other sources, like Blinding Feint's buff for a Dual Blades. So that Scrapper is doing 1.125 * 3 = 3.375. The Brute will be in a similar situation pre-fury, so .75 * 3 = 2.25. Now we add in Fury, but 100% damage from fury only affects the base damage, so that's just another .75 for a total of 3.00. At 150% damage from Fury, you finally break even. Very rough, but the basic idea is that end game Brutes will lag Scrappers by a bit on average. The gap, while small, will probably only get wider as we add on incarnate abilities, as I really doubt any of those abilities will increase BASE damage, but rather pile on additional buffs and the like that Fury will not affect. Fury will likely play less and less of a role in your total damage output in the future.
At a low level, all that goes out the window. Much more of the damage is base damage, much less of it other sources. So at a low level, the case is closer to what you're saying, and Brutes win that competition handily.
Also, some builds will certainly get much more of their damage from base damage, and could do more damage with a Brute than with a Scrapper. This isn't an always sort of situation. Just a chances are if you know nothing else about what you're comparing.
A high end Dual Blades/Super Reflexes will be getting a substantial amount of damage from sources other than base damage, perhaps more so than an average Scrapper. So as an educated guess, it's likely to do more damage on a Scrapper than a Brute. I'm not certain, and haven't run any numbers on any specific builds. But I think it's a reasonable guess. -
Quote:Discussed many times. Used to be arguably true. Not so much now after the Fury changes. I have not looked into it personally, just reporting the Scrapper forum consensus. (You will likely do better damage at a lower level. I'm talking about end game.)Originally Posted by Jakarr
I know I will probably get chopped up into little peices posting here on the scrappers forums but I'd go Brute instead of a scrapper for Dual Blades. While the starting damage is better but after 5 seconds in a fight a Brute will be dishing out more damage then a scrapper, along with more HP.
We don't have anything against Brutes. Many of us play Brutes too. We often discuss Brutes on the Scrapper forum. But you play Brutes for the better survivability or the better aggro control or what not, not for the damage. -
Quote:It's at least looser than it used to be now that we have inherent fitness.Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
The only major problem with taking SR as a secondary is that there isn't any 'skippable' powers outside Quicken and Elude. And in both cases those are very, very good powers to have.
Dual Blades, in my experience, also required a good number of attacks taken as you want to be able to use 2 combos in the set. All in all this will leave very little room for extras. -
I assume you can combine a synthetic with a regular? I have a toon with some 50s that I want to combine with. I can always respec them out, though.
Oh look, these things have all gone up in price since I last bumped my open bids on the market. I need to raise my bids again. Doh! I only have bids for the regulars! Why aren't I bidding on synthetics? This totally solves two of my problems - where to stash more of my influence, and how to get a better chance at getting the level "53" Hamios. OK, bumped up my bids and added some synthetics. I need to transfer more billions, though, and maybe bid on a few more types. That should solve my influence storage problem for a while.
Bidding 850,000,000 for yours, Chaos. -
Quote:Yeah, but I'm all about the repetitive ultra-violence.Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
The only thing I can say against it is it does tend to get a little boring after a while. You're a really one-dimensional character. Run in, Shield Charge, FSC, Fireball. You don't really do much else...
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Quote:I have several toons with an attack chain of this form (based on the numbers I map this pattern to):Originally Posted by John_Printemps
A value of three attacks is enough to cover that the chain has begun looping over itself
12321242
You'll note that attack #2 occurs four times in the chain. I doubt this is typical of the highest DPS chains, but it's typical for some of my mid range chains.
I agree that it doesn't solve the problem. It does make sure that these attacks get used as often as possible, but that won't necessarily be optimal. For instance, it might not find Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Siphon Life, because there are survivability chains that spam Siphon Life faster, like Siphon Life -> Smite -> Boxing.Quote:Originally Posted by John_Printemps
This is probably best corrected by adding an additional question when you input an attack. "Does this contain +Heal or +Dam, Y/N" so that when the power is input, selecting yes will add 100 to the DPA to insure that the attack is run first in the chain (this should, in most cases, be a sufficient additive, and if not, should put the attack into spot 2 in the DPA run). This doesn't readily solve the issue though. -
One exception I know to that rule is Broad Sword. In a certain range of recharge, the best chain seems to be this:
Head Splitter -> Hack -> Disembowel -> pause -> Hack
In a certain range of recharge, it is better to simply live with the pause than to stick in another, lower DPA attack. But as you said, "near-optimal", which I'll agree with. I also don't know of any other Scrapper exceptions, though it seems likely there are some out there at some level of recharge for some primaries. But they're probably few, and following the simple rule is probably still close to optimal. -
I enjoyed leveling my Broad Sword/Shield more, but I love my Fire/Shield all IO'd out. Mine's a concept build, so his DPS and survivability is medicore. Still, his AoE doesn't suffer, and his survivability was enough to do a Rikti War Zone challenge in 1 minute 40 seconds, and that's without the level shift. I could probably get it to 1:30 if I didn't make mistakes. (Yes, I know Iggy did it way faster on his Super Strength/Fire Brute.)
The video is terrible (no sound, no UI, sword doesn't show), but hey, I haven't redone it on the new computer, partially because Iggy beat my time by such a huge margin. -
Quote:I think it would too. Now, I ran one last night with my Katana/Dark and had no problems with cascading defense failure, but the keys here are probably "Katana" and "twelve billion in enhancements" and "level shifted". I loves me some Dark Armor, but no, I probably wouldn't make a Kinetic Melee/Dark Armor if I was shooting for maximum survivability and damage output.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I don't know quite enough about DA but I think it can suffer from -DEF on ITFs and other heavy def-debuff missions.
I've barely looked at Kinetic Melee, but it seems like Shield Defense is the answer, just like it's the answer to most combo questions. Since that's off the table, if it's damage you're after, go Fiery Aura, but I suppose that fails on your "unkillable" criteria. Might as well try Invuln or Willpower, then. They're both excellent secondaries. -
Quote:Ah, nice.Originally Posted by mauk2
SD does not have a self-heal or end power, and this gets both in the same package, assuming Mids is right.
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Apex softcap would be 59%, but since it's close, I assume it's achievable. So is this sort of like getting Shield Defense to the Apex softcap? That's fairly difficult, though doable.
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I know nothing about Energy Aura, so forgive my ignorance. What's surpising?
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Quote:*I* like playing with the cheat codes on.Originally Posted by John_Printemps
some people like playing with the cheat codes on.
Sometimes, I just want to SEE the game, like watching a movie instead of playing a game. So why not ghost it or play in god mode with unlimited ammo?
I used to unlock all the cars when I was into racing games. It's the driving I enjoy, not the points progression or fiddling with car setups in order to win.
I played Max Payne with unlimited bullet time. I felt like turning it into more of a game of tactics than one of twitch. If I felt like twitch, I didn't have to use bullet time, and lord knows if I played the whole game that way it would have taken forever. But sometimes, I just wanted a slow motion fight, all the way through.
I played No One Lives Forever 2 using "only" the katana. Guns... yawn. Having to sneak up on your enemies and slice them to bits before they blew your head off? Priceless fun.
The way I see it, a game isn't a finished product to be played only as the devs originally pictured it, but rather something I can adjust to make it more fun for ME and whatever mood I happen to be in at the time. -
Quote:And it's my belief that people are different and enjoy different things. And even if investing time and effort is something they'd find rewarding, build making isn't the only thing you can invest time and effort in in this game. It's an MMO. There are a VAST variety of things to invest time and effort in.Originally Posted by Syntax42
It is my belief that if you invest time and effort into something, it will be more rewarding to you in the end. If you just hand someone a level 50 character with a build, they probably won't have much fun with CoH and will likely quit soon. If someone takes the time to learn how to make their own build, they are more likely to keep playing.
Some people like role playing. Some people like leveling to 50. Some people just want to play their 50s. Some people like PvP. Some people like making builds. Some people want a cookie-cutter build. Some people are happy with SOs. Some people want to purple out. Some people like making costumes. Some people like to fiddle with spreadsheets. Some people like to play the market. Some people like to farm. Some people like to speed task force. Some people like to design bases.
People enjoy whatever they enjoy. You're being very naive if you think that everyone enjoys what you enjoy, or that they SHOULD enjoy what you enjoy, and should therefore be forced to play the game like YOU enjoy.
The world isn't made up of clones of you. It's made up of other people. -
Quote:Have you seen the most recent "perma" Elude thread? Elude downtime is low enough to be covered by Hibernate. The build is Spines/Super Reflexes, but might be adaptable. To Claws should be pretty easy. Less so to Dual Blades due to purple slotting issues, but if anyone can figure it out, you can.Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
It's funny... my original logic that got me playing /SR was that every time I ran into trouble in this game, a purple insperation (or 4) was the solution. And now, as they're throwing more challenges at us, even on my /SR toon, I'm still saying the same thing... pop a purple, and the red numbers stop showing up over my head. I haven't worked the build out to my satisfaction, but I may end up taking elude for the first time to help address the upcoming challenges.
I'd probably personally go with a lower recharge build with just significantly higher defense than 45% if it's a big concern. I wouldn't want to twiddle my thumbs for 30 seconds. But the build was at the very least thought-provoking. -
Quote:So????Originally Posted by Syntax42
That build was basically handing him the fish instead of teaching him to fish.
Seriously, so???
Someone asked for a build. Someone supplied a build. If they want to learn to fish, they can learn to fish. If all they want to do is eat a fish, there's nothing wrong with asking a fisherman if you can have one, and nothing wrong with the fisherman saying "sure".
Why should everyone have to learn how to make a good build? It's a GAME. People find their fun in different ways. I like making builds. Some people just like playing, but want a good build to play with. Nothing wrong with asking for one. Nothing wrong with giving one. -
OK. So it has some defense and resistance but no heal? So... Shield Defense without a shield? Super Reflexes with power pools? How will you distinguish it from other secondaries?
Edit: Also sounds like it goes best with a Tech origin, and not as well with others. Yes, your mutant power could be to create an exoskeleton. Yes, it could be a magic exoskeleton, but if you're magically creating an exoskeleton that magically boosts your dexterity, why have the middle man? Just magic up some dexterity. An exoskeleton just seems too specific. Though ultimately, the power set is about what it does, not how any devs explain it. Certainly Willpower doesn't seem to me like I'm using will power. It's the defense/resist/regeneration set. -
Yay! I'll have to give it a try. Loved your original. Curious to see the differences. I'm... not sure I'm up for getting repeatedly slaughtered tonight, though. Some other time.
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The game uses the higher of your positional and your typed defense. It does not add them. So you can safetly focus on either one or the other. On Shield Defense, you focus on positional defense.
Due to the way defense works, you'll get significantly more survivability if you can get to at least 45%, and preferably a little higher to handle defense debuffs. 45% is a "must" though. 43.4% might look close enough, and yeah, you'll be pretty survivable with it. But it's not actually all that close in survivability terms. -
Quote:My Katana/Dark is significantly more survivable than my Katana/Regen, though some of that is because the Katana/Regen is an I12/13 build, and the Katana/Dark is an I19 build. It was significantly more survivable on its I18 build too, though.Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Hmm. Well, I can certain throw a few billion at the poor guy and get that defense up. I know it will help I just don't know if it's worth the investment. Since it starts with no defense like any resist set wouldn't said resist sets with a heal be more effective in the long run? What can a bs/regen with high defense do that a bs/fire, /dark, or /elec can't? (Let alone a bs/wp or /inv with aid self).
I thought I could at least give you an excellent I16 build from Umbral that Val Blademaster used to solo four AVs at the same time with no temps no insps. Unfortunately, Mids' seems to be messing it up.Quote:Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
But those concerns are ultimately unrelated to the thread. Defense will indeed help out the bs/regen. Anyone have a build example? I've build enough high smash/lethal defense builds to know kinetic combats, weave, steadfast, maneuvers, and combat jump backwards and forwards but haven't played with the other defense types or untyped defense builds enough to know where to start.
Well, to give you a starting point, see the below. This needs a lot of help, because it's merely an in progress attempt to update my build. Looks like I hadn't started moving slots to inherent fitness yet, and I need to work on the recharge, and who knows what else is wrong with it. Probably a lot. It's also super expensive. But you can at least see some of the sets being slotted, and things like taking Shadow Meld. It does have over 30% defense, but on the whole, it's still a mess. Heh. Three slots in Brawl. Yeah, it's a mess. Please, please, please nobody try to build this or repost this as a good build. It is for reference only.
Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1392;688;1376;HEX;| |78DA65945B6F125110C7CFC20285022DE5565AEEA5944BBB85B689892F3ED8567B2| |1C1E2E5C990959EC25AB29005137DF30B184D35F10B78FD187E1AE3A5D5475F0CCE| |CE1C906437617F6767E63F3367F62CB5A7BB5EC69EDF6092FF66571D0C9A8D96A1F| |6FBDC70D4D4B6D6723EE086CE0D17632C3CF6346BBCCBB972A40E555D4D4CACBBFC| |8CEB03AE9CF03607893AD47A7AE040EF7083EB4365BC98ABF77A5DE598ABA7DC187| |4B4BE77FCDCD7F4B6071F1A7DCE4F7DB8DCD7DA9D2138627B7DADA534866AF71C2A| |357A4FBACD9A3A1872E3D922745680DF0BB345BC460E96B7315665DE02C25F44444| |A88C532E10B20C8764D95245469BBE9B1C50949849C40785288850C62CF25446C24| |4BF1E93827A966283C4419F721DC4E456CF6B7D4DA05229766265E428083F2498EE| |B00979D39055F81CF25D9B043D71986CFB4119E0E625E233C462C9C2302A0725349| |C91D964C53F51A258C806B5674334BAE4C08B1FE178C09760B027C1420FB68077ED| |A64923699A64DAED1266F43F89C18E1DC3D4C14BA83889C2096EE4B66DA78039F92| |771159500544838132F69C241C8027481E168CA254025398E6C3C24B18650753545| |48D6E61234B15CC1CAF22D2DB88DC0E22BF85780DAA983824311A669A8699A16166| |68982B34CC151AE621A89645F9656AF2C265F6458912DF6CE643FE3B62ED07A2F49| |37089D8B842BC01554AA852A4CA91AA48AA22A98AA4DA2455085459513E7B845B3D| |06D3AA3830ABF40E37A9B120780A622E857778C84A9F10EBEF091F111B1F089F115| |F216B5994288FE06232E451C4FB5144057180FEC0FF454514AF88535A158CCB93AF| |D0C630511EEF55BC1FFFF7C2F184CA7E5697279F129372B885943CF92647EE79F87| |4C83DAA7BCC8AB47E38B57E34B52E4D57C09A158BA56AB16C5B2C3B16CB255491C4| |B194D0F2CB62B9B2587E5B2CFF004868F24D| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:The damage / sec power graph, strangely enough, is exactly the wrong thing to look at if you want to understand how much DPS an attack contributes. I believe that stat includes the recharge time. You don't want to do that, because most most mid to high level builds, and probably many low level builds are not cycle time limited, but rather animation time limited.Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
Checked it in Mids. If both are 6 slotted with Crushing Impact then the DPS is damn near identical, at least as far as the Damage/Sec Power Graph goes. Slash hits harder, but Parry still recharges faster.
But there are some peculiarities of the game engine that mean there's an irreducible delay between attacks, which we refer to as ArcanaTime. You want to account for those delays, adding them to the cast time of each attack to properly represent how much time that attack will actually take when used in a tight attack chain.
To do all that in Mids', in options, configuration, under effects & maths, select "Use AracanaTime for Animation Times". Once you've done that, you then look at Damage / Anim in the power stats graph. Slash is 43.45 DPS and Parry is 36.49 DPS. Close, but not as close as the damage / sec graph seems to indicate.
Looking on the Damage / Anim graph, you'll also see that your three big hitters are Head Splitter, Disembowel and Hack. Everything else is a long ways back from those. So if you can afford to go without Parry, you can do a lot more damage using just those three attacks. Specifically, the Head Splitter -> Hack -> Disembowel -> Hack chain, and with an Achilles' Heel in Hack, and ideally a Fury of the Gladiator in Head Splitter. That takes a lot of recharge, though. -
Quote:Well, I guess John has made the point moot, but I really wouldn't worry about that. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that there are other things that will make your build obsolete before you have to worry about your 48% defense dropping to 45% defense. And if I'm wrong, 45% defense will be perfectly playable while you consider your next version of the build.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One potential problem with the build I just noticed is that it relies on Enzymes.
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Quote:Ten, but yeah.Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Nine 7.5% bonuses?
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Well, a while ago, we talked about what the worst Scrapper combo would be. We decided it would be Martial Arts/Fire. So I started one on principle. Then they totally buffed both Martial Arts and Fiery Aura. I haven't played mine much since. Now he's actually pretty good.
