OK. So it has some defense and resistance but no heal? So... Shield Defense without a shield? Super Reflexes with power pools? How will you distinguish it from other secondaries?
Edit: Also sounds like it goes best with a Tech origin, and not as well with others. Yes, your mutant power could be to create an exoskeleton. Yes, it could be a magic exoskeleton, but if you're magically creating an exoskeleton that magically boosts your dexterity, why have the middle man? Just magic up some dexterity. An exoskeleton just seems too specific. Though ultimately, the power set is about what it does, not how any devs explain it. Certainly Willpower doesn't seem to me like I'm using will power. It's the defense/resist/regeneration set.
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Sounds like bug armor to me.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
I think what you're looking for is an armored costume and super reflexes or invulnerability. (speed or dexterity) or shield, (think ascendant unlockable shield), no reason you cant have an armored shield incorporated (just like exoskeleton wing coverings, strong thick armor to protect the fragile wings beneath). Or from a mechanical perspective, it's just practical for a humanoid, especially if it's a weightless projected energy shield, on top of already decent armor.
Allow your imagination some freedom:
SR-> Speed, Defense enhancing armor
Invuln-> Dexterity(tohit), Defense, Resistance
Shield-> Defense, Strength, Resistance (teleportation in shield charge can be seen as teleportation directly, or the ability to immensely boost speed).
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I think the powered armor should give resistance, not defense. It should be the Scrapper version of Stone Armor (lower resistances of course), but fast instead of slow. Also a run speed + recharge power like Lightning Reflexes would be appropriate.
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The exoskeleton part of it, as said, could be done with costume parts.|
Originally Posted by TerribleTank
I saw this idea of a mechanical exoskeleton where it something that could one day increase speed dexterity and defense with armor on it. It be an odd power set but I was thinking it be a cool idea for scrapers as a secondary power set. Any takers or suggestions on this idea?
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But I can see how you want different options for secondaries.
I'd like a Position Defense set, with some S/L Resist and a self heal. Sheild comes close, but I'd rather have the self heal than the Shield Charge, but this is all for concept more than anything.
Ninjitsu comes close to this (and would be an acceptable substitute for me personally) but alas, Scrappers don't have it (hopefully that's a "don't have it yet")
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So what we're talking about is a CoH version of Iron Man
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If one could figure out the utility type of powers I think a scrapper version of /nin would be a good thing to add.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Ninjitsu comes close to this (and would be an acceptable substitute for me personally)
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Pretty much its gone be an iron man suit in the end but thats the thing like stone armor it have pieces that just keep building on one another and slowly moving up till your incased in a suit I was thinking like other powers thought you get to decorate the suit and design it in different ways it wouldnt be a one fits all it have many options for your imagination to run wild and yes there can be a healing power for this little cell sized computers perform first aid and give a healing boost there would be a shield generator to protect you further so you have enhanced mobility (mechanical workings make your arms and legs move faster) , strength (Mechanical workings enhances strength) , Deafens buff (Armor), Resist Damage buff (Shield) so in the end youre a pretty decked out scraper and yes this would be more suited for technology or sciences but then there already powers that do that so its kind of already there
I would love a positional defense set that didn't have click mez protection.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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There is a third avenue for protection that has not been explored in CoH, although I'm not even sure it's feasible, first from the tech point of view, second from the balance one.|
Originally Posted by Werner
OK. So it has some defense and resistance but no heal? So... Shield Defense without a shield? Super Reflexes with power pools? How will you distinguish it from other secondaries?
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Absorption.
No, not "you get healed by fire but are weak to ice" absorption, or "you reduce % damage", or "you're hit % times when attacked". I mean straight absorption: Can nullify up to X amount of damage per attack, and everything else above it comes in at full force.
The best example I can think of this was a niche playstyle from the Diablo days that was later expanded (but still niche) in Diablo 2. There was straight absorption of damage points (not % based, just plain -1, -5, etc.) in several places - armors had a fixed value per type (the heavier, the higher it was), there were magical affixes that could grant them. Full-blown dedicated absorption builds could in fact do surprisingly well in the end-game, with the tradeoff of having less available room to enhance the spells/skills/attributes.
It would mesh extremely well with an "exoskeleton" set concept. It is similar to both defense and resistance, without the randomness of the first or the scalability of the second, which could make it a bit of an oddball.
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As a general rule the game tends to steer away from functional costume pieces except where necessary. There are legacy ones such as granite armor, and special cases like Shields. But the devs would rather, most of the time, make power armor costumes and powersets with different unique effects that distinguish them significantly from other existing powersets and let players mix and match to the best extent possible.|
Originally Posted by TerribleTank
Pretty much its gone be an iron man suit in the end but thats the thing like stone armor it have pieces that just keep building on one another and slowly moving up till your incased in a suit I was thinking like other powers thought you get to decorate the suit and design it in different ways it wouldnt be a one fits all it have many options for your imagination to run wild and yes there can be a healing power for this little cell sized computers perform first aid and give a healing boost there would be a shield generator to protect you further so you have enhanced mobility (mechanical workings make your arms and legs move faster) , strength (Mechanical workings enhances strength) , Deafens buff (Armor), Resist Damage buff (Shield) so in the end youre a pretty decked out scraper and yes this would be more suited for technology or sciences but then there already powers that do that so its kind of already there
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Right now, there is no actual power armor powerset, but we have armor-like costumes and there are conceptual justifications for mimicing the (defensive) abilities with Super Reflexes (defense, recharge, movement speed), Invuln (resistance to physical damage, defense, enhanced health), or Shield (if you can incorporate an actual shield into the design of the character). Even Willpower might be a potentially valid choice.
If none of those really match your concept for an armored set, you should consider tackling the question of why none of the other options appear suitable, think about what *abilities* you want powered armor to have, make sure tat list is sufficiently different from all other mitigation sets, and propose that. That way, other players could take that powerset and realize other concepts besides powered armor, and in general that's a better way to provide options to the rest of the players.
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The mechanics of Invulnerability in Champions Online works this way. Invuln blocks a fixed number of *points* of damage per attack, and then a certain percentage of the rest.|
Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
There is a third avenue for protection that has not been explored in CoH, although I'm not even sure it's feasible, first from the tech point of view, second from the balance one.
Absorption. No, not "you get healed by fire but are weak to ice" absorption, or "you reduce % damage", or "you're hit % times when attacked". I mean straight absorption: Can nullify up to X amount of damage per attack, and everything else above it comes in at full force. The best example I can think of this was a niche playstyle from the Diablo days that was later expanded (but still niche) in Diablo 2. There was straight absorption of damage points (not % based, just plain -1, -5, etc.) in several places - armors had a fixed value per type (the heavier, the higher it was), there were magical affixes that could grant them. Full-blown dedicated absorption builds could in fact do surprisingly well in the end-game, with the tradeoff of having less available room to enhance the spells/skills/attributes. It would mesh extremely well with an "exoskeleton" set concept. It is similar to both defense and resistance, without the randomness of the first or the scalability of the second, which could make it a bit of an oddball. |
This means, and I think this is clever but tricky to balance, that a large number of things plinking weak attacks at you are far less dangerous than one strong target shooting a few really high damage attacks at you, which is a gameplay feature we don't currently have in CoX. It means defensive super reflexes is characteristically different than resistive Invulnerability in a way even average calculations cannot encapsulate. And I actually like it when things cannot be easily quantified and compared, forcing people to pick what they want, not what other people tell them is mathematically optimal.
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Ayup. I remember back in the D2 days we used to have charts of how "deep" in the game you could go depending on how dangerous the enemies were for a given amount of damage absorption. Of course you could always go deeper, but then damage would start to come in - quite fast at times - and how there were borderline areas where depending on the random spawns one could encounter groups of manageable enemies mixed in with things that would kill the character in seconds.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This means, and I think this is clever but tricky to balance, that a large number of things plinking weak attacks at you are far less dangerous than one strong target shooting a few really high damage attacks at you, which is a gameplay feature we don't currently have in CoX.
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There were some "staging" areas, where for a given amount of absorption one could safely "farm" gear with high enough ilvl to spawn the next step up of affixes in the magic items to progress further. Like the steppes of the expansion.
I also remember being terrified of multishot, lightning enchanted bosses with this particular character (a melee sorceress, at that, go go fast staff attack animations!), because I'd enter scrapperlock and forget to check what it was I was attacking at the time.
*Crack*
*BZZZZZZZZZZT*
x.X
Good times. I didn't know Champions had rescued the concept and used it in their Invulnerability set.
Maybe we could replace the paltry mez resistance set bonuses with damage absorption ones over here in CoH land. Oh, the possibilities that'd open.
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Power. CO has damage mitigation passive powers, not powersets. I believe they adapted some of the mechanics from the HERO system, although they were not allowed to actually use the HERO system directly (they didn't buy it or license it, they just bought the conceptual IP).|
Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
I didn't know Champions had rescued the concept and used it in their Invulnerability set
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Damage mitigation mechanics in CO is incredibly rich, and the powers that use them are balanced incredibly badly.
Incidentally, CO Invuln was bugged at release. It was supposed to mitigate a fixed amount of damage per attack, then a fraction of the rest. Instead it mitigated a fraction of the damage, and a fixed amount of the rest. That little mistake made Invuln, oh, about three times stronger than it was supposed to be vs all content except for Archvillains and Cosmics.
Someone pointed out that little mistake, but never got an acknowledgement about it, *or* the PFF blocking balance error, *or* the Defiance r^2 balance error, *or* the Regen strength calculation error. I can't imagine who would go to all the trouble to test damage mitigation powers like that with exactly zero feedback on whether their tests were even matching the power's design requirements. Sounds kinda stupid if you ask me. Now.
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BWAHAHAHAHA! Oh dear, that so... Awesome is the only word that comes to mind. When I was making the first post I was thinking of how the absorption mechanics would stack with resist/defense/regen in CoH. if your powerset is based on absorption, what second "layer" to build? Mitigation from resistance may not be all that great if all you do is take a % of the damage left after it goes through absorption, you may be better off with regen or, even better, plain +HP, if you have high levels of absorption.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Incidentally, CO Invuln was bugged at release. It was supposed to mitigate a fixed amount of damage per attack, then a fraction of the rest. Instead it mitigated a fraction of the damage, and a fixed amount of the rest.
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All the while thinking how of course it'd matter greatly in what order the layers get executed. Absorption first then the rest or... Yeah, that.
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| Someone pointed out that little mistake, but never got an acknowledgement about it, *or* the PFF blocking balance error, *or* the Defiance r^2 balance error, *or* the Regen strength calculation error. I can't imagine who would go to all the trouble to test damage mitigation powers like that with exactly zero feedback on whether their tests were even matching the power's design requirements. Sounds kinda stupid if you ask me. Now. |
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When Reflexes, Invuln, and Regen were first introduced to that game in the beta, they were just regular old powers. That you could take like any of the attacks. Meaning you could take all three. Its kind of hard to put this into perspective, because the two game systems have differences in the relative strengths of critters, and typing is totally different. My best estimate for the combined strength of those three at the time was imagine if there was a power pool available to blasters in City of Heroes, and one power offered 75% resistance, one offered 40% defense, and one offered 1000% regen, and they were all passives. How many blasters would you expect to take anything other than all three?|
Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
BWAHAHAHAHA! Oh dear, that so... Awesome is the only word that comes to mind. When I was making the first post I was thinking of how the absorption mechanics would stack with resist/defense/regen in CoH. if your powerset is based on absorption, what second "layer" to build? Mitigation from resistance may not be all that great if all you do is take a % of the damage left after it goes through absorption, you may be better off with regen or, even better, plain +HP, if you have high levels of absorption.
All the while thinking how of course it'd matter greatly in what order the layers get executed. Absorption first then the rest or... Yeah, that. |
This is why that game now has a passive slot: to force you to take one and only one. I had only one comment at the time: don't bother testing that, because there's no way we're getting it. Just have fun with it until they overhaul it. I still don't know how that got off the drawing board. Then again, I don't know how Gigabolt got off the drawing board either, and that made it all the way to live and beyond.
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I saw this idea of a mechanical exoskeleton where it something that could one day increase speed dexterity and defense with armor on it. It be an odd power set but I was thinking it be a cool idea for scrapers as a secondary power set. Any takers or suggestions on this idea?