Werner
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Quote:I have one. Agreed that it's not good for AVs, but it was lots of fun. Great burst AoE damage. Haven't touched him in a while. I can't remember what level I left him at, or if I leveled him all the way up, decided not to IO, and that's why I stopped.Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
I've been playing the reverse, an Electric Melee/Fire Armor scrapper.
Its not a durable build, despite Fighting and IO bonuses, and probably not suitable for AV's, but its packs ridiculous amounts of area damage, and has been a blast to play through 8 person missions with.
Its also quite a rare combination, I've yet to meet another one. -
Quote:Yep, easily, and before inherent fitness or incarnate powers:Originally Posted by eryq2
I've seen vids on youtube of a Katana/Dark scrapper solo'ing AVs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPJupcXuApk
But I think you can only argue for it being the best combination if speed is not a concern (my DPS is lowish). Also, the budget on that build is unreal, and it suffers somewhat at lower price points. And as Nihilii says, we can probably build any Scrapper combination into a no temps no insps AV soloer now. Some combinations lend themselves better to it, of course. I'd probably stick with the classic - Dark Melee/Shield Defense - if AV soloing was the purpose of the build. If it's just something you want to do every now and then, you might want more AoE than that combination will provide. -
It definitely goes in Gambler's Cut, and arguably ONLY in Gambler's Cut, given how frequently it is used in typical attack chains and the decreasing benefit of each additional chance to proc. More is always better, of course, but there are usually trade offs being made to get them.
I generally recommend against putting it in AoEs, which is also to say that I wouldn't normally use the Gladiator's Fury proc except in an AoE used in a single-target chain (like Golden Dragonfly). However, it is at least arguable that an Achilles' Heel is better than a regular damage proc in an AoE, and in some more rare cases, it's arguably better even than a purple proc. And again, it's always better than nothing, but usually there are trade offs involved.
I've never really cleaned this up, so it's a big wall of text with a bunch of revision notes to myself, and cut and paste from other posts, but here's my reasoning:
Quote:Lets say you're surrounded by five even level minions and you use a PBAoE with an Achilles' Heel proc in it. With a 20% chance of firing, on average it will hit one of those minions. Achilles' Heel is basically a buff – attacks on that minion over the next ten seconds will do 20% more damage. So we can consider that additional damage to be the “damage” that the proc does. A level 50 minion has 430 hit points. Let's say that the attack with the proc did 190 hit points of damage, leaving the minion with 240 hit points. And lets say that you DO manage to kill the minion in the next ten seconds. The 240 hit points of damage required to kill the minion can be considered to be 200 base hit points of damage, plus 40 hit points of damage from the proc. So what's the MAXIMUM damage that the proc can do? It would be in an AoE that does NO damage itself, so that the minion still has all 430 hit points of damage. And then you'd need to finish off the minion in the next 10 seconds, which pretty much means finishing off the whole crowd in 10 seconds since I don't think there's a way to identify who got hit with the proc, or at least not to do it quickly. You would then attack the minion for exactly 359 points of damage, and the proc would do the other 359 * 20% = 71 points of damage.
So the proc does 71 damage to an even level minion under nearly IDEAL circumstances –your AoE does no damage at all, and you finish off the crowd in the next 10 seconds.
What about a regular damage proc? That's a lot simpler. 20% chance of doing 71.8 damage.
So when fighting minions, even under nearly ideal circumstances, the Achilles' Heel proc basically only pulls even with a regular old damage proc. In practice, it'll be way behind.
What about lieutenants? Well, you won't be surrounded by just five lieutenants and nothing else, and good luck finishing five lieutenants off in 10 seconds except with an AoE monster, but sure, let's say that everything comes together just perfectly. A level 50 lieutenant has 805 hit points. So you're doing 671 damage, and the proc does 671 * 20% = 134 damage to finish off the lieutenant. Then yes, under these even more ideal circumstances, the Achilles' Heel proc will do somewhat more damage than a regular old damage proc. But taking into account that not everyone's level 50, that you won't often find yourself in this situation, that your AoE actually does damage, and that sometimes you won't finish off the guy that got hit with the proc in the next 10 seconds, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily better in practice. I'd probably still recommend a regular damage proc as being more likely to do more damage on average, and to do it sooner since it takes effect on that attack rather than on potential future attacks. But even if we take the 20% chance of 134 damage at face value, what about a purple proc? That's a 33% chance of 107.1 damage = 35.343 damage on average, compared to our 20% * 134 = 26.8 damage on average. So the purple proc is still significantly better than Achilles' Heel against lieutenants even under near ideal circumstances.
So we pretty much need to get up to boss level before the Achilles' Heel starts to really beat out the alternatives. And while you might be using AoEs on a boss farm, you're not going to be finishing off that crowd of bosses in 10 seconds unless you're on a big AoE team. So I suppose I could add a qualifier of “unless you're AE boss farming on a big AoE team” to my advice to skip Achilles' Heel procs on AoEs, but that's seems unnecessary, that being such an exceptional circumstance.
So the basic use of Achilles' Heel procs is for taking down single hard targets. It's a single target because you don't usually find or take out multiple hard targets fast enough (with some exceptions on some teams). And its a hard target like a boss or above because only those have enough hit points for the damage from the Achilles' Heel to add up.
Now, I DO see some logic in putting it in AoEs for another situation – attacking the boss, but using an AoE because there are other enemies around. The primary target is the boss, so it's pretty much like putting it in a single target attack at that point, which is to say that it is worthwhile. However, what percentage of time do you use your AoEs that way specifically, and what percentage of time do you use them on targets other than bosses? Generally speaking, I think AoEs are largely used as minion munchers. As such, the Achilles' Heel procs are usually going to be outclassed by other options, often significantly outclassed.
REVISION: If the AoE has a regular damage proc, it is all but guaranteed to do full damage, because most AoEs don't do enough damage to kill the minions in that one hit, even when the proc hits. You could always be finishing off something with an AoE, I suppose, in which case a regular proc wouldn't hit for full damage. But if you're finishing off something with AoE, the Achilles' Heel DEFINITELY isn't helping, since it just sets you up for future damage. So we're talking about that initial hit. With an Achilles' Heel, some of the extra damage buff will almost always be wasted on blowthrough damage. In other words, you're not going to do exactly 359 damage, and the proc does the other 71. You're just as likely to have your last attack do blowthrough damage, in which case the proc also isn't contributing as much.,
REVISION: For the AoE attack on bosses, not particularly useful because your single target chain should have a bunch of Achilles' Heels, and stacking makes each additional one less useful. Depends on primary, of course.
REVISION: More useful on teaming than I'd been thinking. Basically, yes, it's wasted on minions and to lesser extent lieutenants. But it's helpful on the bosses. And I suspect that on an average team, bosses are what live the longest. They're therefore the targets most in need of taking down more quickly to keep things moving. So even if the average damage of the resistance debuff is lower, if it preferentially targets bosses for extra damage, that can be a good thing. More details follow:
REVISION: Either I'm completely missing your point, or you're completely missing mine. So I'll try again taking a slightly different approach.
You and your full team encounter a full spawn with 2 bosses, 3 lieutenants and 5 minions. You get to the team first and launch your AoE, which does no damage of its own other than the proc. You and the team then wipe out the entire spawn in the next 10 seconds. This situation is the best possible scenario for the debuff compared to straight damage procs. Taking the average of the procs across many such spawns.
Achilles' Heel: 86 * 2 bosses + 27 * 2 lieutenants + 14 x 5 minions = 296 damage
Damage Proc: 14 * 10 mobs = 140 damage
Purple Proc: 35 * 10 mobs = 350 damage
That's your ideal. Now maybe this is what you mean when you say that looking at max damage (I assume you meant damage instead of usage) isn't the ideal. I would argue here that even though the purple proc does more overall damage, the Achilles' Heel is more useful, because it preferentially targets the bosses for additional damage. If bosses are what typically survive the longest in large spawns on large teams (as I assume to be the case), then this preferential damage will speed things up slightly on average. So I would argue here that the Achilles' Heel is better than the purple proc for this situation.
But this situation was an ideal situation. The first obvious deviation from this ideal is that your own AoE attack does damage. Just to have a number, I'm going to use my The Lotus Drops from my Katana/Dark. Looks like it does 277 damage under Build Up. That seems reasonable to use. Now everyone has fewer hit points for the proc to help with. Now it looks like this:
Achilles' Heel: 76 * 2 bosses + 18 * 2 lieutenants + 4 * 5 minions = 208 damage
Looking worse. Damage on bosses is still good, so maybe it's still better than a purple proc. But getting more realistic, hopefully the tank is leading the charge, and is probably using AoE to help get control of the situation. And others are probably itching to do damage as well, so you aren't likely first AoE every time. So on average, they'll have taken somewhat more than that 277 damage before your debuff kicks in. Let's say they've taken 600 points of damage - the minions are all dead, and the lieutenants are hurting.
Achilles' Heel: 66 * 2 bosses + 7 * 2 lieutenants = 146 damage
But maybe you're not fighting +0. Maybe you're fighting +2. Do normal teams carve through a +2 spawn with bosses in ten seconds? Eh, let's say they do. Your 600 points of damage is now only 480 points, and the other procs are at reduced damage:
Achilles' Heel: 70 * 2 bosses + 11 * 2 lieutenants = 162 damage
Damage Proc: 11 * 10 mobs = 110 damage
Purple Proc: 28 * 10 mobs = 280 damage
And so it goes. My general observation would be that the purple proc usually simply does more damage. A further advantage of this is that the damage is all up front, so is more useful for mitigation through such things as finishing off minions or lieutenants more quickly while you pound on the bosses. But the Achilles' Heel is useful for its preferential targeting of bosses for additional damage during the course of the fight. This is less useful up front, in mitigation, and does less damage overall. But if you can take the bosses out that much faster, you should be able to finish the fight that much faster, as bosses probably tend to last the longest.
Coming clean, my Fire/Shield has a Fury of the Gladiator proc in Fire Sword Circle. Why? Well, mainly because he already has the purple proc. But I'm also banking on the preferential damaging of bosses to hopefully speed my progress through spawns solo. And because the toon has serious AoE, so is more likely to get at least SOME damage from the proc on things other than his primary target (bosses). And because Fire Sword Circle is part of his "single" target attack chain.
Now, having covered all that, I perhaps still simply don't get what you're trying to say, but I'll try. I think you're trying to say that the average damage done, and when it is done, isn't what is most relevant. What is most relevant is how likely the proc is to save time/attacks/endurance.
You are correct! But that doesn't make the Achilles' Heel any better compared to its rivals. Ignoring WHEN the damage is done, the chance of some damage saving an attack (and thus time and endurance) down the line is basically a direct correlation with the damage done. This is all about the law of averages. Even ONE more point of damage might (though it's very unlikely) save an attack. Your AoE does 277 damage. Your teammate's AoE does 152 points of damage. The minion has 1 hit point left. A proc that does one hit point of damage may save an attack. How likely is this scenario? Not likely, but only because it's a single hit point. A proc that does 107.1 hit points, though, is MUCH more likely to save an attack. I'd say 107.1 times as likely on average as a first pass.
Now that's just minions. The Achilles' Heel is significantly more likely to save an attack on a boss if it fires, but that is already reflected in my numbers, in the way that I calculate significantly more damage for the Achilles' Heel on bosses than on minions.
Now what about the idea of damage NOW instead of damage in the form of a buff? Damage NOW is more likely to save an attack. The trivial case of this is when damage now finishes off the enemy. A buff would require hitting the enemy again. What about our boss situation, first part of the fight? Damage now will hardly make a dent. But so that we're comparing apples to apples, let's say the damage proc does 300 damage now as opposed to 300 damage in the form of buffs to later attacks. Well, damage now is damage in the bank. It applies even if the boss runs off around a corner. It applies even if the team doesn't finish the boss off in the next ten seconds. It may not be MUCH more likely to save an attack, but it is MORE likely, as long as the average damage (as I calculated above) is equal. Now, the average damage of an Achilles' Heel on a boss actually dwarfs the average damage of regular or purple procs. But THAT is the reason it is better on bosses, not some advantage to delaying damage. And that damage difference is already accounted for in everything I've calculated.
Jesus why did I write all that?
REVISION: What hasn't been quantified is what happens if the attack cycles again in less than ten seconds. Since the debuffs don't stack, the second attack gives you less damage. This is a point in favor of damage procs, not debuff procs. For example, lets say the attack cycles in five seconds. Every other attack's buff can be considered to do 0 damage. It's slightly better than that if we include the chance of missing, but doubling the attack rate doesn't double the average debuff, it barely changes it. (later edit: Wait, that sounds wrong. There's a very good chance that when your second attack procs on a target, your first didn't on that target. It won't double the average debuff, but it should be close?)And while we're on the subject of not stacking, my understanding is that the debuffs don't even stack from Achilles' Heels being used by your teammates. Straight damage from procs, of course, does "stack". Another point in favor of straight damage procs.
REVISION: Clarify that you aren't saying that the less damage an AoE does, the better. Obviously, the more damage it does, the better. But the more damage it does, the less the Achilles' Heel proc contributes.
REVISION: State clearly that this same argument applies to the Fury of the Gladiator proc. -
As others indicate, your build is basically in a scrap it and start over state. Here's Iggy Kamakaze's Katana/Willpower build, or at least the most recent version of it I have. It's I20 at least. I haven't looked at it carefully, but Iggy is one of the best, and has done insane things with earlier iterations of this build, like solo a master of ITF no temps no insps no deaths, or take down a pylon while surrounded by two RWZ challenge spawns, then finish off the spawns.
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Quote:Yes.Originally Posted by Microcosm
is FU>Focus>Slash the best chain?
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Quote:Yeah, I meant Geas for the recharge and going with Rebirth instead of Ageless. (Edit: Or heck, Barrier. Yeah, we don't need the defense, but since we have Aid Self on hypercharge, some resistance might come in handy. Probably Rebirth though.) But yeah, maybe Eye of the Magus is enough to replace Hibernate. One nice thing with Hibernate is the quick recovery. I'm not sure how well you'll be attacking right after an endurance crash anyway, but I guess that's what blues are for.Originally Posted by Microcosm
Hmm, well I don't think Geas would be necessary if you just did t9>burnout>t9>eye of the magus>t9>burnout. Everything should still be recharging in time, and you would have no period in hibernate doing no damage.
I seriously never use the click accolades, so I could easily be saying really stupid things and not know it. You can laugh in my face if you want. -
You should also be able to use Geas of the Kind Ones every other cycle. I didn't know about Burnout, and that's an interesting idea.
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As a fairly impractical alternative, you can "perma Elude" these days by cycling Elude and Hibernate on an extreme-enough build. And if you're about to say, "no way, that would take being at almost the recharge cap", you're right, but you can be at almost the recharge cap by discarding every normal idea about how a Super Reflexes is built (and spending vast sums of influence).
See the attached example based on Murdok's actual build with some tweaks by me. Defense is far over the 59% mark at 100% melee, 95% ranged and 94% AoE. You can probably do some pretty massive damage... at least when you aren't Hibernating. I wouldn't play it because of the down time, but it's so awesome that I'm glad SOMEONE is playing it.
This build is Spines, but I believe someone plugged in Claws, and it worked too. It might be more difficult on other primaries, but Ageless might fill in any recharge gaps.
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Quote:Having fiddled with top end Invuln Tanker builds, I'm sure you have drastically more survivability than my top end Scrappers will ever dream of, so I'm not poo-pooing your point of how awesome it can be.Originally Posted by Delerious
Not to brag, but a couple nights ago I was thinking of the scrapper challenge which I had never done and decided to try it out. I could literally stand next to a pylon with a full group of lvl 54 rikti and never use a single insp.....indefinitely.
Not sure how that rates nowadays, but without using incarnates or insp I'd call that pretty damn good.
But yeah, a pylon and level 54 Rikti doesn't really rate these days. I think it was Iggy Kamakaze that took a Katana/Willpower Scrapper pre Incarnate and pre inherent fitness, gathered two separate groups of level 54 Rikti for a total of 6 bosses, dragged them to a pylon, took down the pylon while they beat on him, then took out the Rikti. No temps, no insps, all other RWZ challenge rules in play. -
Quote:That's probably the easiest way.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I assume you do that by asking Iggy to make you a build that has all that.
If that didn't work, I'd consider accepting the loss of some damage for the extra survivability. -
Quote:On a Super Reflexes or on your Shield Defense? Doing it on a Shield Defense is pretty hard and involves a bunch of compromises. Like you might be looking at Weave, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers AND Hover, along with a million defense bonuses instead of the recharge the build is begging for. I don't think I'd bother, but if I did, I'd probably be doing it with Barrier and with a Gladiator's Armor.Originally Posted by Ghost_Ripper
So what do you take, to get to 59% defense?
Not that I've tried it, but on paper, I'm not a fan of Ageless. If I have endurance trouble, my preference would probably be to manage it with Cardiac so as to free up Barrier or Rebirth to add a whole lot of survivability. Of course for pure damage, I'd want Musculature. Then you either need to manage endurance the old fashioned way to get your extra survivability (Musculature helps a little), or you just go with Ageless and call it good. But seriously, you're not on a Dark Armor. You should be able to work something out.
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Quote:There is, but it's an ugly, ugly thread. However, it IS where I got the maths quote in my sig from. The specific post is December 4, 2010 at 1:10 PM, and describes in detail what the test and graph are all about. I suppose it might show different times in other time zones, though. Easy enough to scan down the page for the graph, of course.Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Is there a thread somewhere (on these forums or wherever) that explains the details of that graph?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=245914
Here's the follow up thread that I was banned from posting in since the first thread actually started getting to me (plus was taking me away from more important things):
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=246478
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Quote:Bingo. I'd be THRILLED if all of my stored influence suddenly turned into purchases. Well, as long as prices recovered from my lowball price, I guess, instead of continuing to go down.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
This is why I prefer to store inf as really low ball bids on expensive IOs
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Quote:OK, I have you at 194 DPS.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Here's the build I was running.
You're at 198 DPS while Hasten is up. Hasten should be down for about 15 seconds by my calculations. While it's down, Golden Dragonfly has about a 0.7 second gap, so DPS will go down quite a bit. Looks like about 165. Still, that's just for 15 seconds. So time averaged would only bring you down to about 194. You aren't taking time to heal because of regeneration. You don't have Practiced Brawler slowing you down. I assume you aren't using other clicks or inspirations or anything else that would take time.
So I'm not sure why I'm calculating almost 15 more DPS than you're seeing in game. It's certainly possible that I have something wrong in my calculations. -
Quote:Things the build has:Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I'd really want to understand what other +dmg effects and procs were running, either though IO bonuses or Assault etc. Because honestly how can maybe adding the Fury -RES proc make that much difference in dps? I mean, a chain is a chain -- if you can run the GC-SD-GC-GD chain, what could be causing a variance of +/- 40dps (assuming pre-incarnate).
- purple proc and debuff proc in both Gambler's Cut and Golden Dragonfly
- two regular damage procs in Soaring Dragon
- +22% damage from sets
- +10.5% damage from Assault
- Gaussian proc
- Build Up recharges in 26.09
It appears I didn't deduct for Practiced Brawler activation time, but did for Hasten. I'm sure that was intentional, but I'm not sure WHY. On brief glance I was consistent with that. That would probably drop it by maybe 4 DPS? It might have had something to do with my time frame, since I wasn't shooting for sustainable endurance, but then why would I deduct for Hasten? Anyway, that's arguably a calculation error, and would be for pylon soloing, say, which is what we're often comparing against these days. You'd also need to factor in healing time with pylon soloing, but not including healing time isn't a bug in the calculations, just something to keep in mind for some real world applications of the DPS. In others, like a Tanker-taunted AV, it wouldn't be a factor.
Edit: If you'd like, I could calculate the DPS for your build using my spreadsheet, and see how close I come. My guess is that if 180 DPS is your pylon DPS, I'd calculate something more like 190 DPS in the spreadsheet. It might give some idea not the margin of error, but the difference in the things being compared (theoretical max DPS vs. observed in the real world on real computers while healing damage, clicking Practiced Brawler, occasionally making mistakes in the chain, and so on).
Or maybe I'd see a surprisingly high number, and it might suggest that I have a problem somewhere. -
Quote:From a DPS perspective, we've seen that it's better to use the build up proc in Blinding Feint. Putting it in Tactics is a trade off for the set bonuses. You don't need to make that trade off here, so for a DPS monster build, I'd put it in Blinding Feint. For most other builds, I'd stick with completing the Gaussian set in Tactics or Focused Accuracy.Originally Posted by Ghost_Ripper
Is it better to have the build up proc in Blinding Fient or something like Tactics/Focused Acc?
Is it better to have same as above in a BU power like Focused Chi or Tact/FA?
With the introduction of Incarnate Trials, does extra defense pass the 45 threshold give you any value? If I'm using manuevers I have 47-Melee, 48-Ranged, and 47-AOE.
It is better to have the build up proc in a toggle than in Focused Chi. It has a chance to activate every 10 seconds in the toggle vs. 30 seconds or whatever in Focus Chi. The counter argument would be that when you use Focus Chi, that is EXACTLY when you will benefit most from the buff (unless you're just spamming it in an AV fight, say). I'd stick with a toggle, though.
With the incarnate trials, you may want to shoot for 59% defense on a Super Reflexes, though you may also find that with all the defense buffs flying around, that's normally wasted. I wouldn't really be satisfied with 45% these days, though.
No time to review the build right now. -
As already stated, the non-linear relationship between defense and survivability means that you can survive twice as much incoming damage at 45% defense as you can at 40% defense (in PvE). I tested this a while ago to help prove the point. The only reason the 45% observation isn't closer to theory is that I couldn't get the spawn to put out enough damage.
Now, you may be buffed, you could use purples and so on, so you can probably get away with less if you don't like pushing the envelope. But as already stated, 45% defense on a Super Reflexes is trivial. Here's an example of doing so by level 36 using only a single IO, and this was BEFORE inherent fitness.
Code:And I personally HATED Elude. I took it just so that I could comment from personal experience rather than just from theory, but I hated it as much as I expected. The necessary defense for most mobs is easy, and if you need more, purples can usually give it to you without the ugly crash at the end. But I don't PvP or tank Recluse. There was one build I saw where I thought Elude was used well, which was a "perma Elude" build that had the down time of Elude to approximately the up time of Hibernate. I don't want to play a character that's down for 30 seconds straight, but it would be interesting to have 100% defense running full time and oh the attacks you can spam with the absolutely insane recharge required to do that. If you think that soft cap defense is a big investment, though, that's way out of your league.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1091;429;858;HEX;| |78DA75925D4FC23018853B3E9CC8E744050444F1CE8B45A3F7267E25264C11BC270| |B149821635931E29D7FC35F8B2FED29895B68204F7BDED3F3965267F99063ECE796| |1985FB992BC4A03F0CDD20E061DA7127DE90998CB103AD0D1C3EE3DC26E397686DC| |4073EE6BEE076FF73BDEAF1F18C2FB9B09EFD290FB9BFB0F524D79DCF67F693B7F0| |B9106AD1E16EE0F9933C2A93E98256455D1AF1504CBDC07A0CBCA17D371F7D0F1C5| |72C78F85DA543B5E93B5D9F4E8E555A229564094D53913EFFB8033AEBBA21F75211| |35705713199E092BF53190BFA7094F4E13F905F085F424FA24915B004B9AD8FB414| |CA34F1AF9FB9AF01C5820F28FF4EFA2BAA9FA30B3A0B42E6919956764B0EF48936A| |59F8B33887495A1E5A7E4F696FA415959628C2578DD0208FA5FA306B4543DE5C19B| |BCA3BCA751C61923C87CA631C566852650DFDA7112BB8B40A9A9C4409EF2BB18656| |35D41AE0296891A78EBC7AA476A689BC3EB189BCE6166F8F3C2D5C54ABACB477D2D| |AE8D186EF3C4AF4586D1BF2E0B849E9629D98D24D6D5E2333A4D24A6DDEF2EAD792| |4E39BF88EDBD8C295731E53AA6DCC4944C895E35BAFC0136F3AD92| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:It's the normal DPS chain.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Given the best I could pull out of a Kat/WP running a chain of GC-SD-GC-GD with the -RES achilles (missing the Glad proc) was around 180dps while maintaining reasonable levels of survivability (which still weren't that great, but like 600% regen and maybe S/L softcap) on a build a ways back, is it really fair to be saying Kat can get 240dps? (pre musc)
Is that with some crazy chain like GC-SD-GD repeat that can't exist on "normal" builds?
The first post in the pylon thread was a Katana/Willpower doing 194 DPS while using Divine Avalanche. Assuming it was properly marked as a pre-incarnate time, BrokenPrey did 220 on his Katana/Super Reflexes in the pylon thread. I don't see 240 DPS on a non-incarnate Katana, but I believe it's possible based on the calculations. So unless you see an error in the calculations, yes, I think it's fair to say that Katana can get 240 DPS.
The build I used would probably get killed by the pylon since it has no heal. It's also pre-inherent fitness, so Aid Self could probably be added. In practice, I'd add Rebirth instead of Aid Self. Either would take away from DPS a bit, but by the time we're talking Rebirth, we're also talking Musculature and somewhat higher DPS instead of lower. -
Quote:With the Sweeping Strike slotting fixed and a damage proc instead of Gaussian proc in Blinding Feint:Originally Posted by Auroxis
I think the Gaussian's proc belongs in Tactics, but having 1 proc in Blinding Feint while having 2 procs in Soaring Dragon is wrong. Also, you have the purple Damage enhancement over the Damage/Recharge one in Golden Dragonfly, but you didn't do the same for Sweeping Strike. I think you should take Musculature into account anyway.
The shorter activation time for the DB chain also helps in terms of -res stacking and Reactive. As for Blinding Feint not lasting long enough, that's not the case with enough recharge.
246 DPS
Dual Blades IS faster, but only by the time it takes to use Build Up:
DB: 4 attacks in 5.434 seconds = 1.36 seconds per attack
Every little bit helps, of course.
Katana: 20 attacks in 28.38 seconds = 1.42 seconds per attack
As for not taking Musculature into account, as I said, this was all pre-incarnate. I'm not saying it shouldn't be there; I'm just saying why it isn't. Maybe I'll plug in the incarnate powers later. But wouldn't Musculature benefit Katana more since Katana is getting more of its damage from base damage? (Edit: very quick possibly mistaken Musculature calculation - DB = 270, Katana = 268)
As for Blinding Feint not lasting long enough, I'm talking about possibly losing 0.7 seconds, and there's only a couple 0.077 second gaps. You'd lose the double stack on itself regardless. And where are you getting more recharge from? Ageless? Not what I'd choose for sure except as a theoretical exercise. Anyway, I could be completely wrong about the activation thing anyway, which is why I kept the calculations as is with the double stack on all attacks. -
Quote:You're right. OK, that's a trivial change by moving the proc to Blinding Feint and with the saved slot, adding a Gladiator's Armor to keep the soft cap.Originally Posted by Microcosm
I can't look at the sheet on my phone, but I'm betting you aren't calculating the gaussian proc in blinding front. That makes a big difference, as otherwise db and kat can slot almost exactly the same things.
247 DPS
Now, endurance use has climbed a bit and accuracy has gone down, but for the sake of argument, we'll say it's good enough.
Any other suggestions? Katana or Dual Blades.
I will point out that I was not trying to make the ultimate builds here, but rather to compare top end damage with very similar builds. The Gaussian move seems in the spirit of the thing. But then, at this point, the Gaussian set is probably a poor use of slots, so we should do something else, but then I'm straying further and further from the template, so I'm not sure I should go further. I'm sure we could do similar optimizations on Katana if we're straying from template, though picking up a similar damage boost might be difficult. Or maybe it wouldn't be. I think I only picked up about a 7.5% damage enhancement with the Gaussian proc, and on a set already highly damage enhanced. Katana is less damage enhanced, so a couple more damage bonuses might do the trick, and we have a ton of recharge to trade. But trading that recharge isn't really in the spirit of what I was doing.
For that matter, adding incarnate powers will kind of invalidate my whole analysis. Since at the high end we'd be taking incarnate powers, these builds and analysis are really yesterday's news. We should really build some modern builds to compare. That's not really something I'm chomping at the bit to do, though. -
Quote:I should note that this is with just a single target for Soul Drain, like if you're fighting just the AV or Pylon. I have an enterable box for number of targets. I believe you can hit up to 7 targets. If you do, the DPS climbs to 253. Add in AAO and a survivable spawn, and that's how Dark Melee/Shield Defense tops the pylon charts (sans incarnate).Originally Posted by Ghost_Ripper
DM 217 DPS
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The Werner numbers being posted are from an old DPS comparison spreadsheet I made using a massive-recharge Super Reflexes template being applied as equally as possible to each primary. The slotting was not endurance sustainable, so they aren't sustainable DPS, though I believe I made sure they could all put out that DPS for at least a significant amount of time. I no longer remember my goal time. A couple minutes, perhaps.
I think of the spreadsheet as something around the top end of what is achievable without damage from your secondary (via aura or damage boost) or from incarnate powers. Basically, I was trying to compare primaries.
Quote:Originally Posted by Auroxis
As for that DPS list ghost posted, it isn't very representative of actual DPS potential. Katana being better than Dual Blades?Quote:Originally Posted by Auroxis
I don't have any question, I'm pretty certain the list isn't accurate in terms of DPS potential.It looks like the spreadsheet I had downloadable was as little out of date. My current version shows slightly different numbers. I think one problem I fixed was that I believed the gaps had to adhere to Arcanatime as well as the powers. I believe Arcanaville told me directly that that wasn't the case, but my memory is poor. I think the 237 Dual Blades figure was with longer gaps than required by our recharge. In any case, I currently have them dead even:Quote:Originally Posted by Auroxis
Purely because the top DB chain is better than the top Katana chain. Nothing else.
242 DPS Dual Blades (burning 4.18 EPS)
Think I'm wrong? Then have a look at the current spreadsheet. If I'm failing to employ some trick to boost Dual Blades' DPS, please let me know. If I'm calculating wrong, please let me know. I've found mistakes in the past. There may still be some. But saying what amounts to "That's wrong because it's wrong" isn't a very convincing argument, or really an argument at all.
242 DPS Katana (burning 4.24 EPS)
One thing I suspect is wrong is exactly when the Blinding Feint buff takes effect. I have it at the completion of the animation time, but I thought I remembered something like it being at the 1/2 second mark. If so, that would lower DPS due to less stacking of Blinding Feint, Achilles' Heel and Gladiator's Fury.
Since I didn't individually optimize builds, we might expect some minor DPS improvements were the builds to be fully optimized for their primaries. But I would expect this to benefit Katana more since it's the one swimming in much more recharge than it needs for its chain. That might give it the flexibility to pick up more damage bonuses, say. -
Quote:Veteran builders make intentional trade offs. That's a very different animal than basic build mistakes. If you consider low damage in and of itself a build mistake, then choosing a Tanker instead of a Scrapper or Brute is a similar mistake. I notice you're working on a Tanker.Originally Posted by esseff1
New builders? I see veterans do this and swear their toons are the greatest because of their sky high defense. Great, but you can't do damage for ****.
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If you need more voices in the chorus, it's been a long, long time since Invulnerability was weaker than other sets. It's now a great secondary, arguably the most survivable of all. About all the secondary is missing is a heal, but that can be addressed on your Fire/Shield with regeneration set bonuses, Aid Self, or Rebirth. Well, or just the occasional green against pretty much any normal content.
The psionic hole is still there, but you'll be fine if you're careful. It's noticeable but not a death sentence. The hole is just to remind you of how awesome you are against everything else. -
Quote:Hmmm, I know I ran the numbers for Rebirth on my Katana/Dark, and that it wasn't as good as Barrier. I think you're right about the reason - Dark Regeneration is HUGE, just absolutely mind-bogglingly huge. Rebirth is amazing too, and in practice it might be nice to have two healing powers for when you get hit with a spike of damage even faster than your Dark Regeneration recharge, but it's just really hard for me to argue against Barrier on a Dark Armor.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'm not surprised at all that rebirth is great for regen, actually. How does it look for dark armor? My intuition is that dark regen causes it to be less relevant than it is for most other sets, but I don't have anything to back that up at the moment.
Ah, found the numbers:
5481 for 64% to hit, Rebirth
So, Rebirth is marginally ahead at normal to hit, probably because I'm already soft capped. But it falls noticeably behind when you crank up the to hit. Since cranking up the to hit is a passable simulation of getting hit with defense debuffs, I'd pick Barrier even at normal to hit.
6673 for 64% to hit, Barrier
8436 for 50% to hit, Rebirth
8381 for 50% to hit, Barrier
I love ridiculous, pointless survivability on Scrappers, so I personally wouldn't, but I don't think you're crazy at all for planning that way. If you have enough survivability, if you don't touch Dark Regeneration very often in practice, why keep pushing your survivability further? Time to work on damage. And with Martial Arts, chances seem likely that you'll get something more like a 15% damage boost from Musculature. I keep acting like that isn't much, but I'm sure it's enough to notice, and it doesn't sound like you'd much notice Barrier, so why not go for it? If we have a job on a team, it's generally damage output. Besides, probably most people are taking Barrier or Rebirth, so someone spamming endurance for the team will probably be useful.Quote:Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I confess that I've been discussing the incarnate boosts with my own new ma/da scrapper in mind, which I guess I could have noted earlier. Soon as I hit 50 I'll be sitting on 44% s/l, 32% e/n and 100% global recharge. It's from that perspective that I've been advocating musculature and ageless, because for that combo with those bonuses barrier seems not all that necessary as I hardly use dark regen in the first place. It's also one big luck away from softcapping every relevant damage type in trials. I've yet to do any trials, of course, so I suppose we'll see how it works out. The biggest issue is absolutely endurance and I'm not convinced that even cardiac is going to be quite sufficient, though ageless certainly will.
Trying to work out if I'm crazy for planning things this way by proxy, I guess.