Yes, you can have more than one, but not in the *Same* power. It just increases the likelihood of the (one) Achilles Heel Debuff, ie the likelihood of it being applied stacks from different powers.
No, they do not stack even in different powers or different players. If you have enough inf or time for Fury of the Gladiator proc (PvP), they would stack, tho.
Edit: removed power opinion as it is too subjective.
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Correct they do not stack, I think most players put it in multi target attacks. I for one have it in all my Katana attacks but that was due to concept not functionality.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
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Maybe in Flashing Steel or Lotus Drops since those 2 powers are acr'ing powers and hit multiple baddies?
SOP is to put the Achilles in GC.
Optional Fury of the Gladiator in GD. It seems this one is skipped most often.
I'd slot an achille's in Gambler's Cut for sure, since you use it the most out of all of your attacks in just about any Katana attack chain. You can slot it in more than one attack to try and get it to proc more often, but like others have said it does not stack with itself.
I think people with cash put the Fury of the Gladiator proc in their Golden Dragonfly to increase their single target DPS since it stacks with the achille's proc for a total of -40% resistance to your target.
I personally don't put -resistance procs in the AoEs since cannon fodder usually dies anyway even without the -20% resistance. There is also the problem of whether or not you will even take advantage of the debuff in an AoE. If the proc gets one out of the five guys you hit with Flashing Steel, there is no guarantee that you will even be attacking that same guy again in order to make use of the -resistance. That is a personal opinion though; I'd rather increase the efficiency of the power through recharge, endurance, accuracy, and damage or save the slot for another power. My Katana build is also more single target oriented, with the AoE is just slotted normally. Others may build their Katana guys differently.
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I understand your theory but at the moment i have the proc in Flashing Steel and can see it in Lotus Drop, simply because i also run Death Shroud which in my mind, means less end, which for a /DA can only be a good thing. I might have this all wrong but i'd rather hit bigger groups with more damage and less end. |
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
I'd slot an achille's in Gambler's Cut for sure, since you use it the most out of all of your attacks in just about any Katana attack chain. You can slot it in more than one attack to try and get it to proc more often, but like others have said it does not stack with itself.
I think people with cash put the Fury of the Gladiator proc in their Golden Dragonfly to increase their single target DPS since it stacks with the achille's proc for a total of -40% resistance to your target. I personally don't put -resistance procs in the AoEs since cannon fodder usually dies anyway even without the -20% resistance. There is also the problem of whether or not you will even take advantage of the debuff in an AoE. If the proc gets one out of the five guys you hit with Flashing Steel, there is no guarantee that you will even be attacking that same guy again in order to make use of the -resistance. That is a personal opinion though; I'd rather increase the efficiency of the power through recharge, endurance, accuracy, and damage or save the slot for another power. My Katana build is also more single target oriented, with the AoE is just slotted normally. Others may build their Katana guys differently. |
Opinons always appreciated
Sorry to add another quick question but does Death Shroud crit?
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Nope.
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Originally Posted by Breth
Sorry to add another quick question but does Death Shroud crit?
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It definitely goes in Gambler's Cut, and arguably ONLY in Gambler's Cut, given how frequently it is used in typical attack chains and the decreasing benefit of each additional chance to proc. More is always better, of course, but there are usually trade offs being made to get them.
I generally recommend against putting it in AoEs, which is also to say that I wouldn't normally use the Gladiator's Fury proc except in an AoE used in a single-target chain (like Golden Dragonfly). However, it is at least arguable that an Achilles' Heel is better than a regular damage proc in an AoE, and in some more rare cases, it's arguably better even than a purple proc. And again, it's always better than nothing, but usually there are trade offs involved.
I've never really cleaned this up, so it's a big wall of text with a bunch of revision notes to myself, and cut and paste from other posts, but here's my reasoning:
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Lets say you're surrounded by five even level minions and you use a PBAoE with an Achilles' Heel proc in it. With a 20% chance of firing, on average it will hit one of those minions. Achilles' Heel is basically a buff – attacks on that minion over the next ten seconds will do 20% more damage. So we can consider that additional damage to be the “damage” that the proc does. A level 50 minion has 430 hit points. Let's say that the attack with the proc did 190 hit points of damage, leaving the minion with 240 hit points. And lets say that you DO manage to kill the minion in the next ten seconds. The 240 hit points of damage required to kill the minion can be considered to be 200 base hit points of damage, plus 40 hit points of damage from the proc. So what's the MAXIMUM damage that the proc can do? It would be in an AoE that does NO damage itself, so that the minion still has all 430 hit points of damage. And then you'd need to finish off the minion in the next 10 seconds, which pretty much means finishing off the whole crowd in 10 seconds since I don't think there's a way to identify who got hit with the proc, or at least not to do it quickly. You would then attack the minion for exactly 359 points of damage, and the proc would do the other 359 * 20% = 71 points of damage. So the proc does 71 damage to an even level minion under nearly IDEAL circumstances –your AoE does no damage at all, and you finish off the crowd in the next 10 seconds. What about a regular damage proc? That's a lot simpler. 20% chance of doing 71.8 damage. So when fighting minions, even under nearly ideal circumstances, the Achilles' Heel proc basically only pulls even with a regular old damage proc. In practice, it'll be way behind. What about lieutenants? Well, you won't be surrounded by just five lieutenants and nothing else, and good luck finishing five lieutenants off in 10 seconds except with an AoE monster, but sure, let's say that everything comes together just perfectly. A level 50 lieutenant has 805 hit points. So you're doing 671 damage, and the proc does 671 * 20% = 134 damage to finish off the lieutenant. Then yes, under these even more ideal circumstances, the Achilles' Heel proc will do somewhat more damage than a regular old damage proc. But taking into account that not everyone's level 50, that you won't often find yourself in this situation, that your AoE actually does damage, and that sometimes you won't finish off the guy that got hit with the proc in the next 10 seconds, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily better in practice. I'd probably still recommend a regular damage proc as being more likely to do more damage on average, and to do it sooner since it takes effect on that attack rather than on potential future attacks. But even if we take the 20% chance of 134 damage at face value, what about a purple proc? That's a 33% chance of 107.1 damage = 35.343 damage on average, compared to our 20% * 134 = 26.8 damage on average. So the purple proc is still significantly better than Achilles' Heel against lieutenants even under near ideal circumstances. So we pretty much need to get up to boss level before the Achilles' Heel starts to really beat out the alternatives. And while you might be using AoEs on a boss farm, you're not going to be finishing off that crowd of bosses in 10 seconds unless you're on a big AoE team. So I suppose I could add a qualifier of “unless you're AE boss farming on a big AoE team” to my advice to skip Achilles' Heel procs on AoEs, but that's seems unnecessary, that being such an exceptional circumstance. So the basic use of Achilles' Heel procs is for taking down single hard targets. It's a single target because you don't usually find or take out multiple hard targets fast enough (with some exceptions on some teams). And its a hard target like a boss or above because only those have enough hit points for the damage from the Achilles' Heel to add up. Now, I DO see some logic in putting it in AoEs for another situation – attacking the boss, but using an AoE because there are other enemies around. The primary target is the boss, so it's pretty much like putting it in a single target attack at that point, which is to say that it is worthwhile. However, what percentage of time do you use your AoEs that way specifically, and what percentage of time do you use them on targets other than bosses? Generally speaking, I think AoEs are largely used as minion munchers. As such, the Achilles' Heel procs are usually going to be outclassed by other options, often significantly outclassed. REVISION: If the AoE has a regular damage proc, it is all but guaranteed to do full damage, because most AoEs don't do enough damage to kill the minions in that one hit, even when the proc hits. You could always be finishing off something with an AoE, I suppose, in which case a regular proc wouldn't hit for full damage. But if you're finishing off something with AoE, the Achilles' Heel DEFINITELY isn't helping, since it just sets you up for future damage. So we're talking about that initial hit. With an Achilles' Heel, some of the extra damage buff will almost always be wasted on blowthrough damage. In other words, you're not going to do exactly 359 damage, and the proc does the other 71. You're just as likely to have your last attack do blowthrough damage, in which case the proc also isn't contributing as much., REVISION: For the AoE attack on bosses, not particularly useful because your single target chain should have a bunch of Achilles' Heels, and stacking makes each additional one less useful. Depends on primary, of course. REVISION: More useful on teaming than I'd been thinking. Basically, yes, it's wasted on minions and to lesser extent lieutenants. But it's helpful on the bosses. And I suspect that on an average team, bosses are what live the longest. They're therefore the targets most in need of taking down more quickly to keep things moving. So even if the average damage of the resistance debuff is lower, if it preferentially targets bosses for extra damage, that can be a good thing. More details follow: REVISION: Either I'm completely missing your point, or you're completely missing mine. So I'll try again taking a slightly different approach. You and your full team encounter a full spawn with 2 bosses, 3 lieutenants and 5 minions. You get to the team first and launch your AoE, which does no damage of its own other than the proc. You and the team then wipe out the entire spawn in the next 10 seconds. This situation is the best possible scenario for the debuff compared to straight damage procs. Taking the average of the procs across many such spawns. Achilles' Heel: 86 * 2 bosses + 27 * 2 lieutenants + 14 x 5 minions = 296 damage Damage Proc: 14 * 10 mobs = 140 damage Purple Proc: 35 * 10 mobs = 350 damage That's your ideal. Now maybe this is what you mean when you say that looking at max damage (I assume you meant damage instead of usage) isn't the ideal. I would argue here that even though the purple proc does more overall damage, the Achilles' Heel is more useful, because it preferentially targets the bosses for additional damage. If bosses are what typically survive the longest in large spawns on large teams (as I assume to be the case), then this preferential damage will speed things up slightly on average. So I would argue here that the Achilles' Heel is better than the purple proc for this situation. But this situation was an ideal situation. The first obvious deviation from this ideal is that your own AoE attack does damage. Just to have a number, I'm going to use my The Lotus Drops from my Katana/Dark. Looks like it does 277 damage under Build Up. That seems reasonable to use. Now everyone has fewer hit points for the proc to help with. Now it looks like this: Achilles' Heel: 76 * 2 bosses + 18 * 2 lieutenants + 4 * 5 minions = 208 damage Looking worse. Damage on bosses is still good, so maybe it's still better than a purple proc. But getting more realistic, hopefully the tank is leading the charge, and is probably using AoE to help get control of the situation. And others are probably itching to do damage as well, so you aren't likely first AoE every time. So on average, they'll have taken somewhat more than that 277 damage before your debuff kicks in. Let's say they've taken 600 points of damage - the minions are all dead, and the lieutenants are hurting. Achilles' Heel: 66 * 2 bosses + 7 * 2 lieutenants = 146 damage But maybe you're not fighting +0. Maybe you're fighting +2. Do normal teams carve through a +2 spawn with bosses in ten seconds? Eh, let's say they do. Your 600 points of damage is now only 480 points, and the other procs are at reduced damage: Achilles' Heel: 70 * 2 bosses + 11 * 2 lieutenants = 162 damage Damage Proc: 11 * 10 mobs = 110 damage Purple Proc: 28 * 10 mobs = 280 damage And so it goes. My general observation would be that the purple proc usually simply does more damage. A further advantage of this is that the damage is all up front, so is more useful for mitigation through such things as finishing off minions or lieutenants more quickly while you pound on the bosses. But the Achilles' Heel is useful for its preferential targeting of bosses for additional damage during the course of the fight. This is less useful up front, in mitigation, and does less damage overall. But if you can take the bosses out that much faster, you should be able to finish the fight that much faster, as bosses probably tend to last the longest. Coming clean, my Fire/Shield has a Fury of the Gladiator proc in Fire Sword Circle. Why? Well, mainly because he already has the purple proc. But I'm also banking on the preferential damaging of bosses to hopefully speed my progress through spawns solo. And because the toon has serious AoE, so is more likely to get at least SOME damage from the proc on things other than his primary target (bosses). And because Fire Sword Circle is part of his "single" target attack chain. Now, having covered all that, I perhaps still simply don't get what you're trying to say, but I'll try. I think you're trying to say that the average damage done, and when it is done, isn't what is most relevant. What is most relevant is how likely the proc is to save time/attacks/endurance. You are correct! But that doesn't make the Achilles' Heel any better compared to its rivals. Ignoring WHEN the damage is done, the chance of some damage saving an attack (and thus time and endurance) down the line is basically a direct correlation with the damage done. This is all about the law of averages. Even ONE more point of damage might (though it's very unlikely) save an attack. Your AoE does 277 damage. Your teammate's AoE does 152 points of damage. The minion has 1 hit point left. A proc that does one hit point of damage may save an attack. How likely is this scenario? Not likely, but only because it's a single hit point. A proc that does 107.1 hit points, though, is MUCH more likely to save an attack. I'd say 107.1 times as likely on average as a first pass. Now that's just minions. The Achilles' Heel is significantly more likely to save an attack on a boss if it fires, but that is already reflected in my numbers, in the way that I calculate significantly more damage for the Achilles' Heel on bosses than on minions. Now what about the idea of damage NOW instead of damage in the form of a buff? Damage NOW is more likely to save an attack. The trivial case of this is when damage now finishes off the enemy. A buff would require hitting the enemy again. What about our boss situation, first part of the fight? Damage now will hardly make a dent. But so that we're comparing apples to apples, let's say the damage proc does 300 damage now as opposed to 300 damage in the form of buffs to later attacks. Well, damage now is damage in the bank. It applies even if the boss runs off around a corner. It applies even if the team doesn't finish the boss off in the next ten seconds. It may not be MUCH more likely to save an attack, but it is MORE likely, as long as the average damage (as I calculated above) is equal. Now, the average damage of an Achilles' Heel on a boss actually dwarfs the average damage of regular or purple procs. But THAT is the reason it is better on bosses, not some advantage to delaying damage. And that damage difference is already accounted for in everything I've calculated. Jesus why did I write all that? REVISION: What hasn't been quantified is what happens if the attack cycles again in less than ten seconds. Since the debuffs don't stack, the second attack gives you less damage. This is a point in favor of damage procs, not debuff procs. For example, lets say the attack cycles in five seconds. Every other attack's buff can be considered to do 0 damage. It's slightly better than that if we include the chance of missing, but doubling the attack rate doesn't double the average debuff, it barely changes it. (later edit: Wait, that sounds wrong. There's a very good chance that when your second attack procs on a target, your first didn't on that target. It won't double the average debuff, but it should be close?)And while we're on the subject of not stacking, my understanding is that the debuffs don't even stack from Achilles' Heels being used by your teammates. Straight damage from procs, of course, does "stack". Another point in favor of straight damage procs. REVISION: Clarify that you aren't saying that the less damage an AoE does, the better. Obviously, the more damage it does, the better. But the more damage it does, the less the Achilles' Heel proc contributes. REVISION: State clearly that this same argument applies to the Fury of the Gladiator proc. |
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No, powers in scrapper secondaries will not crit. |
Originally Posted by Breth
Sorry to add another quick question but does Death Shroud crit?
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The only damage aura available to a scrapper that WILL crit is Quills in the Spines set, because it is in a scrapper primary.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Do you think an Achilles' Heel proc would be better than a damage proc in Soaring Dragon, if one is already slotted into GC?|
Originally Posted by Werner
It definitely goes in Gambler's Cut, and arguably ONLY in Gambler's Cut, given how frequently it is used in typical attack chains and the decreasing benefit of each additional chance to proc. More is always better, of course, but there are usually trade offs being made to get them.
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It seems significantly better than a damage proc with my rough calculations. Enough to match a top DB/SR build with Reactive in DPS, if not surpass it.
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I'm too tired/busy this evening to do any math, but I'd guess that you're right, particularly if you're running the DPS chain instead of a defensive chain (so that Soaring Dragon represents a larger percentage of your attacks). I seem to always end up with a Mako's Bite set in Soaring Dragon which makes the question moot for me, but then, I build and play defensively instead of offensively. Offensively is probably better most of the time.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Do you think an Achilles' Heel proc would be better than a damage proc in Soaring Dragon, if one is already slotted into GC?
It seems significantly better than a damage proc with my rough calculations. Enough to match a top DB/SR build with Reactive in DPS, if not surpass it. |
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Hey Scraps,
got a question about the Achilles Heel -Res proc. I've just rolled a Katana/ Dark and realised that Kat takes the proc in most powers, my question is this... Can you put the proc in more that one power? (i'm guessing yes) but does it stack from the same caster?
Thanks in advance for your knowledge.
Also any general must take, must avoid build advice would be appreciated.
Cheers
Breth