Super Reflexes: is hitting the soft-cap that crucial? (and other questions)
Hitting 45% def is trivial on a SR. Pick CJ, Weave, Maneuvers, slot a steadfast +3 def and a Gaussian set and there you go. In these days of inherent fitness and incarnate powers I'm having a hard time coming up with a SR build for which not being softcapped would help to attain some specific other goal.
As most of your mitigation is from defense and you also have capped DDR, getting to 45% def is rather important. I personally went for 59% def and don't even feel like I made any unreasonable sacrifices. If I stayed at 45%, I would have slightly more recharge, which would end up being slightly more damage - that's about it.
Elude is in my opinion a good choice. The crash is annoying to deal with (mostly the retoggling part), but you've listed the pros pretty well. Indeed, most forumites seem to be down on it. I don't think all the advice given around here should be listened as gospel. This game is complex enough that varieties of playstyle and goals will make certain build strategies at the same time optimal for some players and useless for others.
Hit 45%+ and if you need more pop a purple. I don't have Elude on my IOed out Kat/sr and I have yet to know of a situation where I would be better off with it considering I would have to give up a power to fit it in. I see no need to deal with the crash from Elude. The benefits don't counter the annoyance.
(You don't need Manuevers to hit soft cap. Steadfast, Gaussian's, Weave and Combat Jumping are all you need with good defense slotting in your /SR powers.)
Everything that Elude provides in normal play good builds already have. Because it's relatively easy to soft cap /SR, many builds are already run zero sum endurance and have Quickness + Sprint + Hurdle + Combat Jumping even with no travel power. No one wants to deal with Elude's crash for a movement boost.
Now, if you are going to be doing a lot of trials then one strategy is to use Elude to jump up to the trial soft cap for a while if things get hairy. But you still have to deal with the crash.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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That doesn't quite work for Scrapper Super Reflexes. It does work for Tanker Shield Defense, though. You would need one more set for every defense category to hit the soft-cap.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Hitting 45% def is trivial on a SR. Pick CJ, Weave, Maneuvers, slot a steadfast +3 def and a Gaussian set and there you go.
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Nobody has explained the significance of 45% defense to the OP. What is boils down to is that it gives most mobs the smallest possible chance to hit you. The base to-hit is 50% and the smallest chance to hit is 5%, before accuracy modifiers which are calculated after defense. That means you need 45% defense to give mobs the smallest possible chance to hit you.
Why isn't 40% defense good enough? Well, if you get hit 5% of the time at the soft-cap, you will be getting hit 10% of the time at 40% defense. That means you are taking double the damage by neglecting only 5% defense.
A build strategy that I frequently suggest is aiming for 32.5% defense. This works because one small inspiration gives 12.5% defense and puts you at the soft-cap from 32.5%. Small inspirations can be bought at vendors before you start a mission or TF, and you can rely on having enough if you keep combining. Before using that strategy, I was NEVER using my inspirations on several of my characters.
Here is a skeleton build to show how easy it is to reach 45% defense on Super Reflexes. This can be adapted to work with any primary set.
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As already stated, the non-linear relationship between defense and survivability means that you can survive twice as much incoming damage at 45% defense as you can at 40% defense (in PvE). I tested this a while ago to help prove the point. The only reason the 45% observation isn't closer to theory is that I couldn't get the spawn to put out enough damage.
Now, you may be buffed, you could use purples and so on, so you can probably get away with less if you don't like pushing the envelope. But as already stated, 45% defense on a Super Reflexes is trivial. Here's an example of doing so by level 36 using only a single IO, and this was BEFORE inherent fitness.
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And I personally HATED Elude. I took it just so that I could comment from personal experience rather than just from theory, but I hated it as much as I expected. The necessary defense for most mobs is easy, and if you need more, purples can usually give it to you without the ugly crash at the end. But I don't PvP or tank Recluse. There was one build I saw where I thought Elude was used well, which was a "perma Elude" build that had the down time of Elude to approximately the up time of Hibernate. I don't want to play a character that's down for 30 seconds straight, but it would be interesting to have 100% defense running full time and oh the attacks you can spam with the absolutely insane recharge required to do that. If you think that soft cap defense is a big investment, though, that's way out of your league.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I think you are thinking Shield Defense? Super Reflex scrappers, with Gaussian's and Steadfast +3% Defense, will cap with Combat Reflexes and Weave, assuming good defense slotting in all your defense powers.
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
That doesn't quite work for Scrapper Super Reflexes. It does work for Tanker Shield Defense, though. You would need one more set for every defense category to hit the soft-cap.
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
yes
Thanks for all the suggestions guys. 
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For me that is an investment. You're taking 2 other pool sets to supplement your secondary and need to take a couple powers just to get to weave, you've taken practically the entire secondary already. Not to mention the slotting. Do you not take aid-self as well? Why would a build not take aid-self with SR? Are small purples not as useful if you hit the soft-cap?|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Hitting 45% def is trivial on a SR. Pick CJ, Weave, Maneuvers, slot a steadfast +3 def and a Gaussian set and there you go.
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For the crash in elude wouldn't just a properly timed blue inspiration prevent your toggles from coming down? I mean you have 3 minutes to work with and go crazy with elude. If the threat survived it probably deserved to lol.
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Is there a thread somewhere (on these forums or wherever) that explains the details of that graph?
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Originally Posted by Werner
As already stated, the non-linear relationship between defense and survivability means that you can survive twice as much incoming damage at 45% defense as you can at 40% defense (in PvE). I tested this a while ago to help prove the point. The only reason the 45% observation isn't closer to theory is that I couldn't get the spawn to put out enough damage.
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Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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That is true, but 5% hit difference is still only 5%. Getting hit 10% of the time is still not getting hit that much. The question I was wondering does that 5% difference actually make a significant one for survival (hospital visit or not) that often, especially when you have other layers of protection?|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Nobody has explained the significance of 45% defense to the OP. What is boils down to is that it gives most mobs the smallest possible chance to hit you. The base to-hit is 50% and the smallest chance to hit is 5%, before accuracy modifiers which are calculated after defense. That means you need 45% defense to give mobs the smallest possible chance to hit you. Why isn't 40% defense good enough? Well, if you get hit 5% of the time at the soft-cap, you will be getting hit 10% of the time at 40% defense. That means you are taking double the damage by neglecting only 5% defense. [/code] |
Some higher level AVs even with the soft cap can hit you more than 5% because of accuracy bonus. If they hit 20% at soft cap def level would they hit you at 25% just under the soft cap?
Is 45% defense simply not needed for the majority of the game and a bit of an overkill?
Thanks!
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No - that's why it's called the soft cap: It's the point at which, although technically you *can* add more defense, any extra will not benefit you. Enemy mobs always have a minimum 5% chance to hit you; that's just the way the game is designed. More defense won't change that. Unless you're being defense debuffed, or the enemies have +to hit, that purple won't do anything.
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Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
Are small purples not as useful if you hit the soft-cap?
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It's been awhile since looking at Elude but it used to be that when it crashes, endurance drops to zero and is unrecoverable for 10 seconds. No amount of blue inspira would replenish your end. Have they changed that?
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Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
For the crash in elude wouldn't just a properly timed blue inspiration prevent your toggles from coming down? I mean you have 3 minutes to work with and go crazy with elude. If the threat survived it probably deserved to lol. |
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Post i7 defense revamp, or I think it was i7, maybe it was i9. look it up.|
Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
...Some higher level AVs even with the soft cap can hit you more than 5% because of accuracy bonus. If they hit 20% at soft cap def level would they hit you at 25% just under the soft cap?...
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Using the spreadsheet I saved back then, and not reinventing the wheel or double check any calcuations. Feel free to look it all up, double check it, create your own spreadsheet, and post any corrections.
An even con AV @45 Defense will hit 7.5%, @40 Defense that's 15.0%. If that same AV puts out 1000 dps of damage, that's 75 dps after defense with 45 defense, and 150 dps with 40 defense.
A +4 AV @45 defense will hit 10.9%, @40 defense that's 21.8%. If that same AV puts out 1000 dps of damage, that's 109 dps at 45 defense and 218 dps at 40 defense.
math ad nauseum, 40 defense is going to result in you taking Double Damage on average long term at 40 defense vs 45 defense. The last 5% DOES matter a great deal.
PS:
- I like Elude and other T9s, but I understand many players do not.
- I also use builds that use small purples to cover the gaps.
- I sometimes use the 32.5 Benchmark, especially on squishie types.
- On my higher end builds I like 46.5 such that I cover the iTrial cap with a small purple.
- I also like to have Vengeance slotted such that I can hit 70 defense on the high end builds in order to cover defense debuffs since most of my builds don't have DDR. Note: SR has DDR.
- It's your choice: 32.5, 45.0, 46.5, 59.0, or 70.0.
PPS:
Link - Defense i7: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115184
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I missed that Nihilii mentioned Maneuvers in his first post. That is equivalent to the set bonus needed to soft-cap with CJ + Weave + Steadfast 3% + Gaussian's. I posted a build that does it without Maneuvers.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I think you are thinking Shield Defense? Super Reflex scrappers, with Gaussian's and Steadfast +3% Defense, will cap with Combat Reflexes and Weave, assuming good defense slotting in all your defense powers.
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Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
That is true, but 5% hit difference is still only 5%. Getting hit 10% of the time is still not getting hit that much. The question I was wondering does that 5% difference actually make a significant one for survival (hospital visit or not) that often, especially when you have other layers of protection?
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The difference between 45% defense and 40% defense is literally double the damage taken. Accuracy modifiers are multiplied by the final to-hit result, so an AV with 100% accuracy bonus will hit the soft-capped character 10% of the time and the 40% defense character 20% of the time, which is still double the damage taken.
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Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
For me that is an investment.
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| For the crash in elude wouldn't just a properly timed blue inspiration prevent your toggles from coming down? I mean you have 3 minutes to work with and go crazy with elude. If the threat survived it probably deserved to lol. |
In the end, it is your build. If you don't want to soft-cap even though it is easy, that is up to you. However, realize that this game is designed with team-based content. If the people around you expect you to survive without the attention of a healer or buffs and you don't, they will likely remember it. Do that enough and people on the server will remember your name and avoid teaming with you, leaving only people with bad builds for you to team with. Trust me. Don't be the guy with the bad build that doesn't meet people's expectations.
Yeah, I absolutely want more than 3 attacks lol, that would be a very boring-dry build for me if I only had a 3 attack chain. I mean I'm a scrapper, I want to maximize damage and have some variety as well! It seems like a rather large investment in my secondary compared to everything else. I would like to take focused accuracy, conserve power, perfection as well.
Aid-self (pretty powerful self-heal) is an absolute must for me to reduce downtime and an extra layer of protection, it saves my *** many times. I think the issue with 40 vs. 45% is that it is potentially taking double damage over time (if you're going solo using no purples, never use elude, etc) but not doubling the actual survivability and when I die it is usually because of overwhelming burst damage where even popping a purple, elude, aid-self doesn't always save me. (The AV number-comparison is very appealing) 
Basically, I have to decide if I want a little bit more offense and situational options or to invest in weave and go over 45%. Is it possible to get the cap without taking weave? Thanks for the speedy responses.
Here is a softcap plan that only requires the fighting pool, 1 added fighting pool slot, and a total of 11 added slots to the secondary.
Plenty of room for more attacks, slots, sets, etc to do whatever you want.
Skipping the fighting pool makes softcapping much harder because you get 3% defense to all from Tough and up to 5.5% to all from Weave. So you'd need to find 8+ defense somewhere else.
45.3/45.3/45.1 Defenses.
I used Martial Arts, but you could use any Scrapper primary.
Level 48 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Martial Arts
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Fighting
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Storm Kick
- (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
- (3) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
- (3) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
- (5) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (5) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (7) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (17) Defense Buff IO
- (19) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage
- (7) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance
- (9) Touch of Death - Damage/Recharge
- (9) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (11) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (11) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (19) Defense Buff IO
- (21) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
- (13) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (13) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
- (15) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
- (15) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
- (17) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (21) Defense Buff IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (23) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Empty
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (23) Defense Buff IO
Level 20: Weave
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (25) Defense Buff IO
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: Dragon's Tail
- (A) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage
- (27) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance
- (27) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge
- (29) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge
- (31) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (31) Scirocco's Dervish - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (29) Defense Buff IO
- (31) Defense Buff IO
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: Evasion
- (A) Defense Buff IO
- (36) Defense Buff IO
- (36) Defense Buff IO
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Level 2: Swift
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Code:
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One thing about Weave: You'll end up taking Tough to get to it, but Tough is often well worth the investment on its own, as it will add another, different layer of mitigation on top of your defense and self-heal.
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I have no interest in Aid Self since Rebirth +regen is an option, as Aid Self eats up animation time. YMMV.
| For me that is an investment. You're taking 2 other pool sets to supplement your secondary and need to take a couple powers just to get to weave, you've taken practically the entire secondary already. Not to mention the slotting. Do you not take aid-self as well? Why would a build not take aid-self with SR? |
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Focused Accuracy is probably not worth the endurance cost. Even enhanced, it can eat more endurance than Physical Perfection gives you. Tactics gives more to-hit and costs less endurance.|
Originally Posted by Speed Slasher
Yeah, I absolutely want more than 3 attacks lol, that would be a very boring-dry build for me if I only had a 3 attack chain. I mean I'm a scrapper, I want to maximize damage and have some variety as well! It seems like a rather large investment in my secondary compared to everything else. I would like to take focused accuracy, conserve power, perfection as well.
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I wasn't suggesting you would only have three attacks. You obviously need an AoE. However, if you want to maximize damage, you need to run an attack chain. Otherwise, you will be using inferior attacks for the sake of "variety". If that's what you want to do, go right ahead.
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Aid-self (pretty powerful self-heal) is an absolute must for me to reduce downtime and an extra layer of protection, it saves my *** many times. I think the issue with 40 vs. 45% is that it is potentially taking double damage over time (if you're going solo using no purples, never use elude, etc) but not doubling the actual survivability and when I die it is usually because of overwhelming burst damage where even popping a purple, elude, aid-self doesn't always save me. (The AV number-comparison is very appealing)
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| Basically, I have to decide if I want a little bit more offense and situational options or to invest in weave and go over 45%. Is it possible to get the cap without taking weave? Thanks for the speedy responses. |
Why not just tell us what your primary is and we can make a build to show you that you can have your cake and eat it too with Super Reflexes? It won't even be expensive cake because Super Reflexes is that good of a set.
Thanks for the input guys. I think I might scrap body mastery power set to pick weave because I'm not sure I really need focused accuracy, kind of worried about end issues but I will have to slot for it.
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Of course I want an optimal attack chain to be available, but I don't want to spam the same one endlessly for the sake of "maximizing" damage all the time. Thanks for the posts.
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
Focused Accuracy is probably not worth the endurance cost. Even enhanced, it can eat more endurance than Physical Perfection gives you. Tactics gives more to-hit and costs less endurance.
I wasn't suggesting you would only have three attacks. You obviously need an AoE. However, if you want to maximize damage, you need to run an attack chain. Otherwise, you will be using inferior attacks for the sake of "variety". If that's what you want to do, go right ahead. |
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I'm using DB with the option to use all the combos lol(for fun). It isn't purely a min/max build, but I still want it to be highly functional.
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
Why not just tell us what your primary is and we can make a build to show you that you can have your cake and eat it too with Super Reflexes? It won't even be expensive cake because Super Reflexes is that good of a set.
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Focused Accuracy is valuable because of the high amounts of ToHit Debuff resistance it gives you, which Tactics doesn't. You can click FA on when you suck a large ToHit Debuff (CoT Spectrals, carnie Dark Servants, etc.) You can use it on demand in which case you kill the offending enemy and then click it off. In this case End isn't generally an issue.
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
Focused Accuracy is probably not worth the endurance cost. Even enhanced, it can eat more endurance than Physical Perfection gives you. Tactics gives more to-hit and costs less endurance.
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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If you're going to take either on /SR I'd rather have Tactics for the Fear resistance.
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Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Focused Accuracy is valuable because of the high amounts of ToHit Debuff resistance it gives you, which Tactics doesn't. You can click FA on when you suck a large ToHit Debuff (CoT Spectrals, carnie Dark Servants, etc.) You can use it on demand in which case you kill the offending enemy and then click it off. In this case End isn't generally an issue.
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SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
Hi guys, I'm an old player coming back. I'm trying to make a speedster character.
Is hitting 45% defense really that important for super reflexes? It seems like a huge investment and only a few situations in which it would actually save my character. (unless I don't have aid-self or a small purple)
Wouldn't taking elude provide a more diverse-thrilling character? (PvP options, to-hit buff opponents, Recluse, better mobility, endurance, etc) I see a lot of people on the forums post that taking elude is a bad thing. Also, why not slot up elude's defense as well? Many guides focus on the recharge potential, which makes sense, but if you face something with mad to-hit bonuses don't you want to do all you can to combat this?