All of your objective are achievable. I've posted a build to illustrate a slightly different approach. It has a tad less global recharge but uses more recharge in the individual attacks.
As for Incarnate powers, I strongly recommend Cardiac Core Alpha, Reactive Destiny, and Pyronic Judgment. I opted for -resistance options over damage in both Pyronic and Reactive, it seems to more than make up for the frequently resisted S/L of Claws attacks. Best part is each tick of Death Shroud had a chance of applying it.
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Desangre I19: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Swipe -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(7), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Slash -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Death Shroud -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Dmg(15), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(17), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(17), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(23)
Level 6: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(19)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-ResKB(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(19)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(23), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(25)
Level 12: Murky Cloud -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(27), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(27)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(29), Theft-+End%(31), Nictus-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 18: Follow Up -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 20: Spin -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(21), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Oblit-%Dam(36)
Level 22: Focus -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(37), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Apoc-Dam%(39)
Level 24: Cloak of Darkness -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(29)
Level 26: Eviscerate -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(40), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(42)
Level 28: Cloak of Fear -- SipInsght-ToHitDeb(A), SipInsght-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SipInsght-Acc/ToHitDeb(42), SipInsght-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SipInsght-Acc/Rchg(48)
Level 30: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Shockwave -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(43), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 35: Tough -- GA-3defTpProc(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(39), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(46)
Level 38: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(40)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(43), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 47: Energy Torrent -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(50), Posi-Dmg/Rng(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Cardiac Core Boost
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(9)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(46)
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1432;700;1400;HEX;| |78DA65935B4F1A4114C767D8A508A282A2A0A05CBC02B280DA8B6D13534B9BD8488| |3627C6BC816A74045D8EC9AB4BEF57BB4CFFD02BD7D997E8126B5ED7B2FF4CC3923| |92B0017E33E7FCE7DC9629BF2EF9197BB3C3F8F8C3B6E938B56ADD362D4BD8EEB2D| |968D5FD25E1989D862D127BC56D0F632C74E5AF95455B08030EBD72A27D6349BC10| |1D471825D33EAD3DB0CFBA7670AFD314B6E89C1B578B894AB7DB36F68579226CA7D| |9B2FC577BABD5698CE1E671ABD13C879D0F77554B8893E023AB553776BB2717B5B2| |E99C0BFB2202E564E1DB9475E1D3D359059062AE03C22142AF12EA80224B4B3947B| |9C652B0986737160871C44812F1D2A3641096CBB0F3CC77403844F8AB843A220372| |8DC2BAB54B97348D7F237C4704DAA80B9C2166BA88209C72D329EE9EE6B2BEC9DBB| |0D33536032E8F7279BE62884952AC83C7AB3AF0520733D441844A8F502359D08D2A| |DD28E942249823F91CE9C2A01BA34ED91865CA81698273EC6622A849532C8058982| |484094FB1A2C411A20DA78238B49E1EA491256864091A59924696A4919D827C8AF2| |BAA77EBB6484D01F44F22F62F11FA187352D324DEE3A706A5ABD97E91C0A960C421| |EB15220141106C8C36A8C619A5F4C4DB80BAE591569F60EAA57B7097711E97B84FB| |883CC8A314498F7AB096A551447A0491F121F25E04F7C8A269AAF33D78980596B8C| |A17DFC098994DC4FA16E126E1164203798AF2B9521B38EE9508BEB05C18A1836059| |B5B64CADADAAD68E40BE46A95C6B6F5D72CE9977885C126FC17B78E1593ACBB2093| |41DC3194395677C4053FE23E10BA2F889F0199182EC0595BD90250F21A6F72F247C| |64E7FB7AFFCE3196435145EF5F2FC65114BF16F52A3E1996D6CF06D6E6C0FAF9C0D| |A1B60F2DF81EB4BB073958C53B21F83A63534FDBC3671FE842EFE31E2D7A0874693| |2314861ACB0C598A4396AD21CBE69045FEF476E032145543FF014CD7E193| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Speaking only of the incarnate stuff, while dark armor is of course a poster child for cardiac, it seems like an equally valid way to go is musculature and ageless. Of all the armor sets, no set needs rebirth or barrier less than dark armor. Clarion? Heh. So, why not ageless? Tons of recharge, tons of endurance, and possibly tons of debuff resistance. What's not to like? This also frees up your alpha, as cardiac is definitely second fiddle to ageless when it comes to endurance. Of the options, the next most attractive alpha is probably going to be musculature. Claws only needs crazy rech if you're after the top chain, and let me assure you that you will do plenty good damage without the top chain. Musculature compounds the heck out of the damage you'll do. Its bonus could be compared to running triple stacked assault, but for zero endurance. Additionally, it allows you to underslot damage slightly, for example slotting four kinetic combats and not having to make up for it with an additional enhancement.
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I think folks misunderstand the value of Cardiac. While yes, it does simplify endurance management, freeing you to pursue other IO set bonuses, it's not actually what makes Cardiac the superior choice over other Alpha Choices. It's the Resistance enhancements that really seals the deal. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Speaking only of the incarnate stuff, while dark armor is of course a poster child for cardiac, it seems like an equally valid way to go is musculature and ageless. Of all the armor sets, no set needs rebirth or barrier less than dark armor. Clarion? Heh. So, why not ageless? Tons of recharge, tons of endurance, and possibly tons of debuff resistance. What's not to like? This also frees up your alpha, as cardiac is definitely second fiddle to ageless when it comes to endurance. Of the options, the next most attractive alpha is probably going to be musculature. Claws only needs crazy rech if you're after the top chain, and let me assure you that you will do plenty good damage without the top chain. Musculature compounds the heck out of the damage you'll do. Its bonus could be compared to running triple stacked assault, but for zero endurance. Additionally, it allows you to underslot damage slightly, for example slotting four kinetic combats and not having to make up for it with an additional enhancement.
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I find Musculature to vastly over rated for the scrapper alpha slot. It's only useful if you primarily solo, and even then quickly runs in to damage cap limits. This is what makes - resistance of Reactive and Pyronic so appealing. It's not encumbered by the damage cap.
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Well you can certainly make that case, but I prefer to look at this situation from the angle of the destiny slot. What destiny does the most work for dark armor? I have a hard time imagining the answer being anything but ageless. In the same way as you can look at the best alpha, cardiac, and build on it from there, you can also start from destiny.
Cardiac does indeed do more than just endurance, but it would be hard to say that ageless' recharge and either recovery or debuff resistance bonuses are somehow insignificant compared to that +res. The other thing is that if you go ageless not only do you not need cardiac, you also don't really need spiritual as you are already getting a huge if less constant recharge buff. In that light, what's wrong with musculature? You may not be impressed with its damage bonus applied to already well-slotted powers, but consider this example. My most recent scrapper is almost 50 and is about ready to slot the purples I've amassed and start the ol' incarnate grind. I was thinking of taking char, melt armor and fireball because what's better than melt armor with just one slot in it? Well, it turns out that fire blast with just one level 50 damage IO in it and musculature, 100% global rech and some ungodly number of global acc bonuses is pretty amazing for a situation like blue mitos. That's a type of value that you don't get from other incarnate combinations.
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A valid argument. Not the route I would chose to go since I favor the consistency the Cardiac Alpha approach offers, but I see the merit of the Ageless Destiny approach.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Well you can certainly make that case, but I prefer to look at this situation from the angle of the destiny slot. What destiny does the most work for dark armor? I have a hard time imagining the answer being anything but ageless. In the same way as you can look at the best alpha, cardiac, and build on it from there, you can also start from destiny.
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| In that light, what's wrong with musculature? |
There are scenarios where Musculature is the superior choice. I switch to Musculature for Hamidon Raids since all my resistance and defense values are meaningless anyways. With 1 toggle running (Obsidian Shield) endurance simply isn't an issue.
For the majority of end content, I simply find Cardiac to be superior Muscualture, even more so during Incarnate Trials.
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Survivability numbers for my Katana/Dark when facing incarnate to-hit:
3976 for no incarnate powersSo 56% better survivability from Cardiac + Barrier compared to something like 10% more damage output from Musculature + Ageless. That's kind of how I look at it.
4265 for Musculature + Ageless
6637 for Cardiac + Barrier
That IS ignoring the defense debuff resistance, Musculature + Ageless is perhaps a bit better than I make it look. But then, all the defense from Barrier is ALSO defense debuff resistance, in the sense that the enemy needs to hit me to debuff my defense. And if it's looking like cascading defense failure, a quick hit of Barrier should put an end to that. So I think Barrier isn't all that bad on the defense debuff protection front.
Numbers will, of course, very significantly with different primaries and different builds. And once you have "enough" survivability, you may well value 10% damage output more. But I really don't think Musculature + Ageless is competitive on the survivability front.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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I think Musculature + Ageless is a decent option, but I don't agree that Ageless is the best choice for DA.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
What destiny does the most work for dark armor? I have a hard time imagining the answer being anything but ageless. In the same way as you can look at the best alpha, cardiac, and build on it from there, you can also start from destiny.
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I'll cover why below.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Cardiac does indeed do more than just endurance, but it would be hard to say that ageless' recharge and either recovery or debuff resistance bonuses are somehow insignificant compared to that +res.
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Ageless' recharge is a nice back end boost of 10%.
The other part is an upfront boost that is like a super Force Feedback proc.
Except I have the forcefeedback proc, and once you already have a high end build, its pretty much just a little bit of gravy on top as opposed to any significant benefit.
The other option, Debuff resistance, let's look at what it does.
Ageless Radial Epiphany: +100% end, +70% rech first 10s, 30% next 20s, 20% next 30s, 10% last 60s (120s total), +85% debuff RES first 22.5s, 42.5% next 22.5s, 21.25% last 45s (90s total), 60ft radius
First, the debuff Res only lasts 90s.
Second, you get an up front 22.5s of 85%
Then 22.5s of 42.5%.
Beyond that it's an irrelevant amount.
22% Debuff RES vs. any significant Debuff threat (like Cimerorans or -Regen situations) is not going to do anything for you.
You might try to disagree here, but try playing an SD without HOs in Active D and see how far that gets you against Cimeroran Def Debuffs (They will cause cascading def failure easily, even vs. 50% DDR)
The first chunk, 85%, is great.
But is it really greater than suddenly having 90% RES/DEF to all damage types ... for an entire league?
I don't think so.
For one thing, as DA you already have little to fear from END drain.
Once you have that covered, I can't think of any situations where I would rather have 85% debuff resistance for 20s, vs basically being invincible for 30s.
Even the second phase of 30 DEF/RES for 20s for Barrier is huge for DA which has Dark Regen and high enough resistances to be capped vs. SM/L Res.
You can be at negative 45% defense or resistance or both, and one application of barrier will suddenly see you DEF capped and capped or nearly capped RES.
On top of that, you get a back end buff of 5% DEF and 5% Res.
Combined with Cardiac, a DA scrapper is looking at a 10% overall improvement to SM/L Resistance if you assume something like 4 Reactive Armor Pieces - plus almost as much defense as Weave.
I think Musc + Ageless is a fine combination if you are going for the ultimate pylon time, or you play a build like Elm/SD which is really amazing with Musc.
Otherwise I would go with Cardiac + Barrier for DA.
Advice: Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT ignore Energy defense on this build.
Dark Armor has comparitively little resistance to Energy damage, and pure Energy atatcks are the third most common damage type in the game, especially in the Incarnate trials.
What that means to you is that Energy attacks will have an easy time hitting you, and they're going to HURT.
It's unlikely that you'll be able to hit soft cap on S/L AND E/N, so I would actually adjust my goals to be more like 32.5% defense to S/L/E/N instead. That puts you a small purple away from soft capped to all 4, and doesn't leave a gigantic Energy damage hole in your build.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
And the derail continues, sorry Vman!
Werner, I admit I am not very familiar with your (or someone's) survivability rating system, so I would have two questions - how well do those numbers stack up to what other sets achieve in the same circumstances, and how does it look against normal tohit? I couldn't even make a guess on the former but I suspect that the difference is a good deal less stark in the more general case.
Deus, you do know that the "for an entire league" part applies to ageless, rebirth and clarion as well, right? But yes, I'm well aware that barrier is impressive. Apologies if I seem to be goalpost shifting, not my intent, but I think if we're talking about "enough" survivability and permanent vs time limited benefits we should absolutely consider inspirations in the mix.
I find musculature and ageless attractive because basically you get a medium red all the time. When is it not desirable to have a 30% damage buff? Never. In addition, you get infinite endurance when you want it, some recharge that you don't necessarily need and certainly didn't ask for but why not, and better DDR than willpower gets 75% of the time if necessary. You also go from being highly resistant to endurance debuffs to basically immune, stronger against tohit debuffs which dark has no other way of countering, and I believe you also get some resistance to regen debuffs? Now that we're on the subject of trials, can you think of any of these debuffs making an appearance on the trials?
On top of this, you still have your insp tray. You don't need blues, you don't need greens, you don't need yellows (most of the time), you definitely don't need light blues, and you don't need break frees. Left to my own devices as I often sadly am, I end up filling the space with big purples and big oranges. Here's where I see the best case for barrier - if you could stomach carrying nothing but big reds, you might get the best of both worlds. I can't do that, as it bothers me to go through inspirations as fast as that would entail. However, if instead you go the easy path of loading up on on-demand mitigation, does barrier really compete with that?
When on a lambda do you need barrier? Well, it'd be awfully handy during the initial assault, but the problem, if you can call it that, is that the significant buff lasts for thirty seconds (which is still clearly great) at which point I assume you're going to want to hit a luck anyway unless you somehow built your dark armor character to have more than 45% of s/l/e/n. The other place where it would be handy is the collection phase, but by design that phase lasts for less than fifteen minutes and in my experience usually closer to five. Half of the phase is spent running to the next objective so I find that I get good results in general just by hitting a big purple when I'm starting in on the next couple crates, and why shouldn't that remain true with dark armor?
BAF is so easy I can't really imagine you ever need to hit barrier. Maybe if you're mopping up the spawns during the last phase? Maybe if you're going for Keep em Separated and are main tanking more than usual with fewer buffs on you than usual? Even there I have to imagine you're within somebody's bubble, or leadership, or 30' clickies now. I don't know anything about Keyes Island because I am still waiting for the general populace to get it through their heads that you do NOT kill Antimatter early before I can be bothered to try it again. From the couple runs I did, though, it didn't seem like it had anything as damage-intensive as the collection phase of lambda. Could be horribly wrong.
I absolutely see the advantages of barrier in theory, but in practice, with the trials we have today, do you need it? Why not just use big purples?
Thank you all your responses. ( i love the scrapper forum !)
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Thank you Desmodos this build is gives me a few ideas, i was actually thinking about going for more individual rech instead of global being that claws is a pretty fast set already. | All of your objective are achievable. I've posted a build to illustrate a slightly different approach. It has a tad less global recharge but uses more recharge in the individual attacks. |
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| Advice: Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT ignore Energy defense on this build. |
As far as the Alpha and Destiny slots, I'll have to explore that further in game as I am still pretty inexperienced with incarnate stuff. But thank you for all your advice in that matter it is more then helpful.
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That is quite alright. I'm learning from these posts lol and any other build advice would be great as well.
| And the derail continues, sorry Vman! |
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They apply to the league, but my point was that Barrier will make your entire league suddenly invincible.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Deus, you do know that the "for an entire league" part applies to ageless, rebirth and clarion as well, right?
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Neither Clarion nor Ageless have that level of "saving the day" in terms of their effects.
Rebirth comes close, but I think Barrier is the stronger choice when considering Squishier league members and their general lack of resistances and lesser overall benefit from % based regen. With barrier they get both the DEF to avoid nearly all incoming attacks as well as the resistance to reduce any attacks that actually get through.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
But yes, I'm well aware that barrier is impressive. Apologies if I seem to be goalpost shifting, not my intent, but I think if we're talking about "enough" survivability and permanent vs time limited benefits we should absolutely consider inspirations in the mix.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I find musculature and ageless attractive because basically you get a medium red all the time. When is it not desirable to have a 30% damage buff? Never.
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But its not a 30% damage buff in a vacuum.
Its a 30% damage buff at the sacrifice of more potential overall resistance, endurance efficiency and the sacrifice of what is effectively a godmode power vs. an endurance recovery tool.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
In addition, you get infinite endurance when you want it, some recharge that you don't necessarily need and certainly didn't ask for but why not, and better DDR than willpower gets 75% of the time if necessary.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
You also go from being highly resistant to endurance debuffs to basically immune, stronger against tohit debuffs which dark has no other way of countering, and I believe you also get some resistance to regen debuffs?
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Yeah, it protects you vs. all kinds of debuffs and that is nice about it.
Although for any buffs that actually have to hit you to function, Barrier is nearly as effective IMO.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Here's where I see the best case for barrier - if you could stomach carrying nothing but big reds, you might get the best of both worlds. I can't do that, as it bothers me to go through inspirations as fast as that would entail. However, if instead you go the easy path of loading up on on-demand mitigation, does barrier really compete with that?
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), so for me barrier is an addition to my arsenal of large oranges & purples.From a Scrapper perspective, you might be right. You might just be better off loading up on those, popping when needed and getting the most out of musculature.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
When on a lambda do you need barrier?
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The rest of your points make a good case, I don't disagree with them overall.
To be perfectly honest, I'm not really in the boat of choosing a single T4 Destiny for my characters, and most of my "main stable" have 2 T4s (Barrier/Rebirth for my Brutes & Scrappers, Rebirth/Ageless for my NW & Clarion/Rebirth for my Corr - all of them switch to Rebirth for KIR) and i tend to swap as needed.
I don't look at large inspirations as a way to do what Barrier does, I look at them as something to cycle in between usage of Barrier, Archmage/Demonic, SoW, OWTS, Self heals, Etc.
Having Barrier generally means I can save all of those large insps for the big fights for spike survivability, rather than use them on a consistent basis to keep me going.
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I agree with most of this comment... but I think it's worth pointing out that nearly all energy attacks have a smashing component... making smashing defense not as important as the above post may imply.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Advice: Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT ignore Energy defense on this build.
Dark Armor has comparitively little resistance to Energy damage, and pure Energy atatcks are the third most common damage type in the game, especially in the Incarnate trials. What that means to you is that Energy attacks will have an easy time hitting you, and they're going to HURT. It's unlikely that you'll be able to hit soft cap on S/L AND E/N, so I would actually adjust my goals to be more like 32.5% defense to S/L/E/N instead. That puts you a small purple away from soft capped to all 4, and doesn't leave a gigantic Energy damage hole in your build. |
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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That's typically true, but the IDF/Warworks have a high amount of pure energy based attacks.|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
I agree with most of this comment... but I think it's worth pointing out that nearly all energy attacks have a smashing component... making smashing defense not as important as the above post may imply.
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Imperial Defense Force
If you go through that list, you'll see that all (or almost all) of the Ranged Energy attacks are all pure Energy.
You make good points too, Deus. Especially about being able to take cardiac and musculature and ageless and barrier all on the same character! Would you believe I've never picked two boosts in the same category on anyone before? Always forget that's an option.
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pimpin' ain't easy
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
To be perfectly honest, I'm not really in the boat of choosing a single T4 Destiny for my characters, and most of my "main stable" have 2 T4s
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Yeah, it's my system, though it's roughly based on Arcanaville's old "immortality line" analysis. John Printemps tried to clean it up and make it usable here, but I haven't actually used his version of it.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Werner, I admit I am not very familiar with your (or someone's) survivability rating system, so I would have two questions - how well do those numbers stack up to what other sets achieve in the same circumstances, and how does it look against normal tohit? I couldn't even make a guess on the former but I suspect that the difference is a good deal less stark in the more general case.
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Yes, the survivability difference is smaller when facing normal to hit. Against 50% to hit:
6524 for Musculature + AgelessHOWEVER, the reason that the difference has decreased so much is that I have 45% defense to all positions without Barrier, so the extra defense from Barrier then isn't doing anything. Still, you could consider that representative of what happens when you chug a constant supply of purples if that's your plan. It is STILL a significant difference though, amounting to a 28% increase in survivability just from the resistance (compared to faster recharge on the heal). So basically, half the survivability increase was defense, half was resistance.
8381 for Cardiac + Barrier
I'm not sure quite what you mean by how those numbers stack up to other sets. Like "how does that look on a Fire/Shield?" Or just other primaries like the Claws/Dark we're talking about for this thread? Honestly, I've done very little analysis of incarnate builds. The only other thing I've calculated was a whole list of Katana/Regen builds as we tried to work out what the absolute top end looks like these days. Again, just calculating with the Alpha and Destiny powers:
6406 for 50% to hit, Spiritual + RebirthNow, you may be thinking to yourself, "Why would you take Rebirth on a Regen???" I thought the same thing until we ran the numbers. My starting point was a soft capped build with near perma Hasten that could incarnate soft cap nearly full time by cycling Moment of Glory, Shadow Meld and Barrier. Turns out it wasn't as good as dropping the ranged and AoE defense down into the lower thirties, cranking up the recharge and regeneration a bit, and using Rebirth. It caught me by surprise, but it is what it is. Anyway, that's my only real point of comparison with incarnate builds.
5470 for 64% to hit, Spiritual + Rebirth
As a more relevant point of comparison, maybe I should calculate for the Claws/Dark that Desmodos posted.
1431 for 64% to hit, Musculature + AgelessThe difference here is a bit more stark, 91% more survivability at 64% to hit, 71% more survivability at 50% to hit. That said, this is all "enough" survivability, particularly if you pop inspirations when there's a problem. So you could easily argue for Musculature on the grounds that you already have enough survivability and you'd like more damage, but it's very hard to argue for it on survivability grounds.
2727 for 64% to hit, Cardiac + Barrier
3677 for 50% to hit, Musculature + Ageless
6300 for 50% to hit, Cardiac + Barrier
And on damage grounds, even a 45% damage buff doesn't work out to be a whole lot of extra damge. I'm too lazy to figure out the chain for Desmodos's build, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that Follow Up is double-stacked, as it often is on high-recharge Claws or Dual Blades builds. Let's add in Reactive as well. Now let's take a simple basic attack like Swipe. It does 195.73 damage according to Mids'. Now let's add Musculature. Now it does 212.6 damage. That's a 9% increase. That's nice, to be sure, but to me it's just not in the same league as the difference in survivability. Are the Lore pets buffed by Musculature? I'm guessing yes, in which case the damage difference would probably be a lot more significant while they're up, so that might improve the damage-based argument.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Thanks. This basically summed up my position, literally.
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Originally Posted by Werner
And on damage grounds, even a 45% damage buff doesn't work out to be a whole lot of extra damge. I'm too lazy to figure out the chain for Desmodos's build, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that Follow Up is double-stacked, as it often is on high-recharge Claws or Dual Blades builds. Let's add in Reactive as well. Now let's take a simple basic attack like Swipe. It does 195.73 damage according to Mids'. Now let's add Musculature. Now it does 212.6 damage. That's a 9% increase. That's nice, to be sure, but to me it's just not in the same league as the difference in survivability. Are the Lore pets buffed by Musculature? I'm guessing yes, in which case the damage difference would probably be a lot more significant while they're up, so that might improve the damage-based argument.
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Good point about claws getting less from musculature due to follow up. Musculature does indeed boost both lore and judgement powers, so even a claws/da is getting something out of it, but it does look more marginal for them.
I'm not surprised at all that rebirth is great for regen, actually. How does it look for dark armor? My intuition is that dark regen causes it to be less relevant than it is for most other sets, but I don't have anything to back that up at the moment.
I confess that I've been discussing the incarnate boosts with my own new ma/da scrapper in mind, which I guess I could have noted earlier. Soon as I hit 50 I'll be sitting on 44% s/l, 32% e/n and 100% global recharge. It's from that perspective that I've been advocating musculature and ageless, because for that combo with those bonuses barrier seems not all that necessary as I hardly use dark regen in the first place. It's also one big luck away from softcapping every relevant damage type in trials. I've yet to do any trials, of course, so I suppose we'll see how it works out. The biggest issue is absolutely endurance and I'm not convinced that even cardiac is going to be quite sufficient, though ageless certainly will.
Trying to work out if I'm crazy for planning things this way by proxy, I guess.
Quote:
Hmmm, I know I ran the numbers for Rebirth on my Katana/Dark, and that it wasn't as good as Barrier. I think you're right about the reason - Dark Regeneration is HUGE, just absolutely mind-bogglingly huge. Rebirth is amazing too, and in practice it might be nice to have two healing powers for when you get hit with a spike of damage even faster than your Dark Regeneration recharge, but it's just really hard for me to argue against Barrier on a Dark Armor.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'm not surprised at all that rebirth is great for regen, actually. How does it look for dark armor? My intuition is that dark regen causes it to be less relevant than it is for most other sets, but I don't have anything to back that up at the moment.
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Ah, found the numbers:
5481 for 64% to hit, RebirthSo, Rebirth is marginally ahead at normal to hit, probably because I'm already soft capped. But it falls noticeably behind when you crank up the to hit. Since cranking up the to hit is a passable simulation of getting hit with defense debuffs, I'd pick Barrier even at normal to hit.
6673 for 64% to hit, Barrier
8436 for 50% to hit, Rebirth
8381 for 50% to hit, Barrier
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I confess that I've been discussing the incarnate boosts with my own new ma/da scrapper in mind, which I guess I could have noted earlier. Soon as I hit 50 I'll be sitting on 44% s/l, 32% e/n and 100% global recharge. It's from that perspective that I've been advocating musculature and ageless, because for that combo with those bonuses barrier seems not all that necessary as I hardly use dark regen in the first place. It's also one big luck away from softcapping every relevant damage type in trials. I've yet to do any trials, of course, so I suppose we'll see how it works out. The biggest issue is absolutely endurance and I'm not convinced that even cardiac is going to be quite sufficient, though ageless certainly will.
Trying to work out if I'm crazy for planning things this way by proxy, I guess. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Quote:
When it comes to my favorite characters, ain't no half steppin'|
Originally Posted by Rad_Avenger
pimpin' ain't easy
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werner
Hmmm, I know I ran the numbers for Rebirth on my Katana/Dark, and that it wasn't as good as Barrier. I think you're right about the reason - Dark Regeneration is HUGE, just absolutely mind-bogglingly huge. Rebirth is amazing too, and in practice it might be nice to have two healing powers for when you get hit with a spike of damage even faster than your Dark Regeneration recharge, but it's just really hard for me to argue against Barrier on a Dark Armor.
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Vman, you still live in Seattle?
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The defense debuffs I worry about most never miss me; debuffs from Tarantula Widows, Carnie bosses and some DA mobs. I believe they are autohit or at least typeless.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
As Werner already mentioned, the DEF from Barrier works in a similar fashion to protect you the way DDR would.
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Thread necro.
After routinely hitting 100% defense debuffs in incarnate content, and now that Ageless has either changed or we had the numbers wrong, and it's a full 120s of DDR, I now suspect that Ageless will be better for me. Outside of extreme defense debuffs, survivability is rarely an issue. The majority of my deaths are from extreme defense debuffs over a long enough period of time that Barrier and my healing rate simply can't keep up with them. I suspect Ageless will keep up with them better.
No actual experience to back that up at this point, just simplistic numerical analysis that suggests that Ageless wins when the defense debuffs get extreme.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Hello my fellow Scrappers, I have recently come back to the game after about a year break and I wanted to try something that I have never tried in the past; for the primary I chose claws and secondary dark armor. I was initially going to make this a budget build but I've decided to strip my ss/sd brute to make this scrapper a crowd diving maniac ( well hopefully with some help from the great minds on the scrapper forum!). I do not have any experience with either class so I'm afraid my build might not be up to par. Some things that concern me are: under slotting my attacks with the kin combats, focusing to much on capping s/l def and overlooking other important details, not slotting certain powers right such as dark regen or death shroud as well as some others, also some of my ancillary pool power selection( i only picked up veng to slot an extra LOTG +rech) . Everything is open to change and any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Some build goals:
--S/l cap and around around 50% s/l res and as high rech as possible
--Budget: basically anything besides glad proc or the panacea proc (I have the LOTGs n the Armageddon and Ragnorak sets already) also a hecatomb that could be incorporated
--I want to be able to handle +3/x8 on most content and i also want to be able to run incarnate stuff easily ( there is nothing better then jumping into a crowd and just ripping faces off even after your tank has fallen)
-- If its possible, I would like to get some more recharge with out sacrificing s/l cap
-- Perhaps a more viable recover/end drain rate( unless juggling conserve would work with too performance procs firing and the theft of essence proc in dark regen to manage the end situation)
-- Any suggestions on which Incarnate abilities would be
awesome
--I don't if i could give up Body mastery for soul mastery but that would be cool for some more damage
I know this is a tall order but I'm just glad to be back and i think claws/dark has alot of potential.
Here's my build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strike -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(5), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(9)
Level 2: Slash -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(11), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Death Shroud -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Oblit-Dmg(15), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(15), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), EndRdx-I(17)
Level 6: Spin -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(19), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(21)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(21), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 10: Murky Cloud -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(25), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(25), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 12: Follow Up -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 14: Obsidian Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(29), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(29), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Theft-+End%(A), Theft-Heal(27), Theft-Heal/Rchg(31), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 18: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 20: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A), ResDam-I(36)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(37)
Level 24: Cloak of Darkness -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(37), HO:Enzym(39)
Level 26: Eviscerate -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg(39), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(40), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(40), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 28: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(42)
Level 30: Focus -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 32: Shockwave -- Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Ragnrk-Dmg(43), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(45), FrcFbk-Rechg%(46)
Level 35: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
Level 38: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(46)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(48), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(48)
Level 47: Tactics -- ToHit-I(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- KntkC'bat-Knock%(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(50), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(50), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(48)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(9), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(31)