Turbo_Ski

I say FF and Sonic are the same level because of how differently +res and +def cap. FF has pretty much zero value on teams/league well into the softcap of Defense, because it has really crappy filler powers. Sonic suffers the same problem which has much worse filler powers, but it takes a lot more to make the +res/-res it brings redundant even on leagues.

So on one side you have Sonic with a stat that isn't easily capped off and in both buff and debuff flavors, but it has the worst designed filler powers in the game (see Sonic Repulsion). On the other hand you have FF, which caps out way faster, comes in only the buff variety, and filler powers that are terrible but no where near as bad as sonic's. Either way they are both in bad positions because of those crappy filler powers.

Trick Arrow specializes in -res AoEs and the crazy damage from oil slick, but everything outside of that is very pathetic. They need to combine FA and PGA together into a single power and improve all the debuff values in FA, PGA, and GA, you can even keep the sleep in PGA since it doesn't even work most of the time and if it does gets immediately broken by AA.

Sleet doesn't make not having BIB for 10 levels any less painful I assure you. Also benumb doesn't increase damage in any fashion.

at 50, Corruptors outclass defenders as I've already mentioned previously in the thread.

Which deals more damage, Ice/Rad Corr doing Ice Bolt->Ice Blast->Bitter Ice Blast-> or a Rad/Ice defender doing Ice Bolt->Ice Blast? The Corruptor because they get BIB WAY sooner.

higher damage modifier has a way bigger impact than higher support modifier. Just ask yourself how many times you activate a support power versus activating an attack power? Probably looking at 5 damage power activations for every single support power activation in an attack cycle. Point is comparing raw modifier percents between the two ATs doesn't mean anything, unless we're talking very specific power comparisons.

Anyway, allow me to elaborate more on my "Always" statement. Early game corruptors trump still for the single reason of power order picks. Blast sets are consistent, you can reliably get your core powers well before 20. The same does not hold true for a good majority of support sets, I've never heard of a blast set labeled as a late bloomer as support sets regularly are called. Also damage pretty much trumps everything in this game in usefulness since there is never a situation where damage isn't useful. There are variety of support powers that simply are mediocre or totally ineffective against certain enemies, slows for example have zero effect on War Wolves. Likewise -Tohit/+Def solo are very weak solo in the early game since you need a lot of it to see impact. Again blast sets are consistent, support sets aren't.

Mid-game really depends on the build, though most defenders won't see the same damage output as corruptors solo for a good 10 levels or so because of how late they get their strong single target blasts. For the most part they are pretty even in usefulness like all ATs in the 25-40 range.

Post-40 Corruptors and Defenders have all the same tools, every AT is getting Epic pools to round out their weaknesses. Solo against minions and lts. feels about the same, the Corruptors pull way ahead though against boss and above because of scourge and higher damage caps (which is easy to with 20 inspiration slots available...). Support however doesn't have any AT specific caps, it simply caps out at the same values, and it doesn't help that it is very common both in temp buffs and epic/pool powers. You quickly get to the point on teams where the Corruptor is pulling out the same effective support job as the defender with more damage in addition. Because of this the corruptor is better in the late-game, you have a lot more room to grow and that matters a lot when you get into larger teams like Leagues.

So if Corruptors are better for 2/3rd of the game and only equal with defenders 1/3rd of the game, that still sounds like Corruptors are always a better choice to me.

Go back and read the post he was responding to, and you would clearly see I mention exceptions like Kin and Rad having higher values that aren't calculated by the support modifier like shields and benumb are.

Ice/Cold and Cold/Ice isn't the only corr and def build I've played into the 40s either, I've also done varations of Rad, Kin, Dark, Thermal, and TA and pretty much comes out to be a pretty miniscule difference on the support overall. Rad and Kin are the only sets I felt like I could match corruptor damage because of the higher than norm values.

The margin between support values is a lot smaller than the margin between damage values. There are exceptions of course like Kin and Rad where the values are tweaked up to higher than they normally would be for defenders, but for the most part the difference is miniscule overall on the support side.

It really comes down to the order you take your powers and whether you like /Pain or /Empathy for most I would assume. End game though, Corruptors > Defenders easily since balanced builds always do better in the late game, since most support values simply cap out too early and it's everywhere in the 40-50 range.

Excluding IOs in any argument about sets is totally fair since they only balance sets around SOs.



Funny how you are ignoring the other 3 teammates that going entirely unprotected by the empath, but are protected by the Thermal. Empathy is less effective once you go past that 5 player team size, a fact that is blatantly obvious on 16+ man Trials. Also resistance yields itself more suitable for a healing set since damage doesn't nearly spike as hard when even +Def fails, saying Def is doubly effective shows a gross lack of understanding of how Thermal works.

You're not going to be keeping fort on that many with just SOs, best you can hope for is 4 at most. Even then the focus on empathy built around supporting individuals, you're not going to be effectively keep an 8 man team alive without additional tank/support mitigation. Thermal doesn't have that problem because its shields scale to any team size, which makes it easier to heal on an 8 man team than it would on an empath. Which is the point, empathy is a great set but it doesn't scale well with larger team sizes as other sets.