Illusion/Radiation vs. Illusion/Cold

I have a 50 Ill/Rad with perma PA and it is a great and versatile character. Even though he isn't mowing down packs of minions/LTs like an SS/Fire brute, the Ill/Rad shines in the long, hard battles (AVs). However..after reading a bit more about the debuff resistance of AVs, I'm not so sure. Conventional wisdom says that the "holy trinity of debuffs" (RI, LR & EF) basically neuter any foe, but reading up on AV debuff resistances, it seems my RI is doing little to none in terms of actually debuffing ToHit (which is probably the most important thing to debuff on a tough foe, -DMG is probably next).

Text from paragonwiki:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Archvillain

"So, for example, while it might seem as though a Defender's Radiation Infection should be valuable against Captain Mako's extremely high defense bonus in the Statesman Task Force, the Infection's debuffs are heavily resisted. Optimally enhanced, Radiation Infection applies a -61% Defense penalty, which should cripple Mako's defense rating, but as it's against a +4 enemy it is at half strength due to the Purple Patch (-61 * .5 = -30.5), and as it's against a level 54 Archvillain a further 87% of that is resisted (-30.5 * (1 - .87) = -3.965%), leaving the net effect approximately half as useful at counteracting Mako's high defense as using a single Insight inspiration for a +7.5% ToHit bonus. Similarly, even against an equal-level AV, a level 50 Defender's mighty Lingering Radiation Regen debuff will be dropped from its usual -500% to -75%. "

And these are Defender numbers! This makes me

RI does -ToHit (resisted) and -DEF (resisted)
EF does -DMG (not resisted) and -RES (not resisted)
LR does -Regen, -Recharge, and -SPD (all resisted)

Is EF the only "good" power for Rads for tough targets? As crazy as that sounds, it is starting to seem like it... say it ain't so!

So I started looking at Cold. I have not played a Cold toon yet but the debuffs seem absolutely excellent when looking at what actually "gets through" and works on the tough targets.

Benumb does -DMG, -special
Sleet does -RES
HL does -RES
(I just listed what AVs do not resist, of course the powers do more "stuff")

I don't have the numbers in front of me for how much -RES you get nor do I have experience playing /Cold, so I was wondering how the numbers/play experience compares. On paper Ill/Cold looks like an absolute beast. Is Ill/Rad officially "little brother"?

Best,
-MT

If you are only concerned with battling AVs, then Ill/Cold is better. The powerful single target debuffs combined with the large amount of -Resistance in both Sleet and Heat Loss really helps to take an AV down quickly. The Cold set has a lot of great things going for it, but it really shines in taking down hard single targets.

Where I feel Ill/Rad is a bit more flexible than Ill/Cold is due to: an AoE Heal that is also a self-heal -- Cold has Ally shields, but no self or AoE heal; an AoE buff that also buffs yourself, including Recharge for you and your teammates; a quickly-cast AoE Resistance and Damage debuff (Enervating Field) that is virtually always available because it is a toggle that recharges very quickly when the anchor is defeated -- compared to Sleet and Heat Loss which are on somewhat long timers; a ToHit and Defense AoE Debuff that may not be hugely effective on AVs, but is hugely effective on everything else around the AV. Rad also provides some great utility powers, like a Rez and a huge PB AoE Hold that stacks with Flash. Rad has a huge amount of flexibility that Cold lacks.

When evaluating the "good" powers in Rad against hard targets, you can't forget the huge amount of -Regen and -Recharge and Slow in Ling Rad, plus the -Regen in EM Pulse. The Cold set has more Slow and -Recharge, but not as much -Regen. It is pretty easy to make Ling Rad perma, so that debuff is usually available. While the -Regen is resisted by AVs, Rad puts out so much of it that it still has a big impact.

I have played both sets extensively, both solo and on a wide range of teams. Both are great characters -- My Ill/Rad is my favorite overall character, but my Ill/Cold isn't far behind. The game has changed a bit recently to make the Cold Shields a little less needed -- making Ill/Cold not quite as team-focused as an Ill/Rad in the upper levels since so many people are already soft-capped on Defense. Ill/Cold has several single target buffs and debuffs, while Ill/Rad is more focused on AoE.

i personally love my ill/cold and with almost 210% global rech i have sleet ready for every mob and it has some procs in it to help deal dmg

i really like the ice shields because they help keep the phantasm alive some as well as teammates who are not completely IOd

i also like my ill/cold because perma heat loss means i have 0 end issues with only hitting 1 target all the time where AMs +dmg will not affect PA and the end recov bonus is minimal

I certainly wouldn't make an ill/cold just because of feeling some sort of "inferiority complex" for an ill/rad. If you want to make an ill/cold to have an ill/cold, by all means do so. If you want one because you no longer feel like you're "the best" then don't bother. If we accept that ill/cold is better at some aspect of the game, it's not going to be that much better than rad to merit ditching your existing toon. I say this as a guy that prefers Cold to Rad, in general.

I wouldn't fret over the Rad def vs troller numbers too much, most of that set is preset and doesn't scale off support modifiers. So it's very out of the norm in that regard, however what controllers do bring is plenty in the numbers and most would argue that */Rad controllers are always better for teams than a Rad/* defender. You are bringing heavy amounts of control in addition to your support set, something a defender simply can't compete with in terms of mitigation.

That said, I feel that */Cold is easily the superior set in the mid and late game, simply because 8/9 powers are just insanely good tools (obligatory Frostworks sucks). Rad gets all it's toys early and those toys remain fantastic throughout, but the set lacks the variety of tools because of mediocre filler powers like Fallout and Choking Cloud. Despite that Rad is a consistent and great set and protects just as well as cold, but it simply just has less to play with. Rad also has a lot more debuff variety in it's few powers, this allows it to stack better with other supports, so think of it as support for support.

If you're interested in */Cold numbers you can check out the guide in my sig, the corruptor values are the same as controllers.

Do NOT use the guide referred to above for Controllers. The numbers most certainly are not the same across the board and that guide is not to be used for Controllers as it's wrong on 1/3 of the entire powerset for Trollers. Use City of Data instead.

I doubt there's anything a /Cold can solo that /Rad can't. I try to make it simple and think of Ill/Rad as an all-round beast and Ill/Cold as steamrolling beast. It eases my mind.

And while we're at it, what makes those combos beasty is not the secondary.

I think Cold is better.

Does anyone have a decent ill/cold build? Just hit 50 and trying to figure out slotting. Mids is making my poor eyes bleed.

One of the things to remember is that AVs don't really have an incredible amount of regen (IIRC, 100% base?). They do have a TON of HP, though. So, you're still cutting off a lot of the AV's regen with Lingering Radiation or Benumb, even though a huge chunk of it is resisted.

Rad has AM, which makes perma-Hasten and perma-PA much more accessible. Cold lacks the easy perma-Hasten & perma-PA, but has better team buffs and better debuffs. If you've got the budget, then you can make an Ill/Cold that will outperform an Ill/Rad.

Be careful of affording much, if any, value to defense debuffs. Unless you're fighting something with stacked Vengeance or a godmode power your teammates will likely have plenty of accuracy and to-hit. For AVs & GMs, I think you're pretty much down to Captain Mako as a -Defense candidate. Regen, Recovery, Endurance, Damage, and To-Hit are the key debuffs.