TonyV

Screenshot Spotter Feb-10-2010
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  1. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
    1. Of course "exhausted all options" means "exhausted all reasonable options." Do we really expect NCSoft to consider a leveraged buyout from Lord Xenu? And there's no indication that the Save CoH community actually understands what a reasonable option is. J.Random.Person sending an email to NCSoft saying that they want to buy CoH isn't a reasonable option for NCSoft. For it to be worth NCSoft's time to even evaluate an offer (even just an offer to talk), it needs to be credible. Aside from the talks with the former Paragoners, I haven't heard of anything that could be considered a credible offer. TonyV reaching out to NCSoft isn't a credible offer. If you're going to walk in off the street and expect to be able to sit down and talk, you're going to need a business plan and financial backing. And legal counsel in very short order.
    In NCsoft's Mission Statement, their goal is "To make people in this world happier." As it is right now, the City of Heroes property is worthless, sitting on a shelf earning the company exactly KRW 0. If their mission is really to make people in this world happier, then really, almost any offer would be considered reasonable, "almost" being selling it for enough to cover the legal expenses of transferring the property and covering any indemnification and/or license fees that might be outstanding on the game.

    I'm certain that the offers that have been made are for considerably more than that amount, which means that even if you ignore their mission statement and just define reasonable as making a bundle of money off of it, then yeah, still reasonable.

    It seems to not be about money, though. Otherwise, they would never make a blanket statement like, "exhausted all possibilities." If it were monetary, someone could always come along and offer you a bigger number. No, what NCsoft is doing is deliberately killing off the game even though they don't have to, even though we have spent a lot more money on it than they have (not even counting the value of our time and effort), and costing 80 people their jobs. Transactions such as selling City of Heroes take place every day in the business world, yet they're telling us that with two months left until the servers shut down, they have exhausted all options? By pretty much any definition I imagine, this is completely unreasonable.

    As for the "but there are complicated legal issues!" argument, I'm well aware of that and I specifically addressed that in my post. NCsoft itself worked through these very same issues when it acquired complete ownership of the game from Cryptic. If anyone has experience working around those issues, this is the company that has it. Their unwillingness to do so tells me that it's not a matter of whether they can or can't, but they just don't want to. They'd rather sacrifice 80+ jobs, a crapton of our time, effort, and money, and the goodwill of our community because they just don't want to bother.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
    2. He keeps going on and on that CoH was profitable. I've yet to see any proof of that, but even conceding the point, there's no way that CoH was significantly profitable. The idea that CoH was a part of what made Aion and GW2 possible is pretty ludicrous. Saying that GW2 was made possible by CoH profits is a joke. If CoH never existed, GW2 would still have been made. On the face of the numbers, it appears that the profit from CoH was what was sustaining new products development at Paragon. New products development at Paragon didn't actually produce any new products.
    I have had private conversations with people who have firsthand knowledge that CoH was significantly profitable. If the amount was only enough to sustain new development efforts at Paragon, I assure you that they would have cut the secret project that they were working on long before now. If you choose not to believe me on this point, fair enough, that's your prerogative. I'll only speak for myself when I say that I'm convinced it is true.

    However, I will put this forth to you and others who are hung up on the financials. We've had confirmation that the former management of Paragon Studios--who we are damn sure had access to financial data and who not only saw the numbers, but probably personally wrote the numbers--were in talks with NCsoft to acquire the property. If the game weren't significantly profitable, why would they have bothered? Why not just walk away and be done with it once and for all? The fact that they were the first ones in line to get the game indicates to me that it was in fact significantly profitable.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
    3. The community hasn't invested money in CoH. Paying for a service is not an investment. There is no "ethical onus" on NCSoft to deliver anything to us just because we paid subscription fees in the past. Paying for lunch at McDonalds doesn't make you an investor. And no matter how many McRib sandwiches you buy, there's no "ethical onus" on McDonalds to continue to provide them after the limited offer time expires.
    Paying for a service most certainly IS an investment. It doesn't carry the legal weight of, for example, buying stock in a company, and I specifically noted that in my post. You seem to be stuck in thinking that the profit we expected to derive would be monetary; this is not necessarily true. You can invest time or money into something with the expectation of deriving recreational use of it later.

    To extend your metaphor, it's more like working up a deal with your local McDonald's manager that if you can drop by once a week for a McRib, you'll create some works of art to hang up on the walls. A few months pass with everything going well, and then the corporate McDonald's overlords decide to close the restaurant, fire all of its staff, and burn the building down, including your paintings that you really kind of like and are proud of. You try to work with them to get the paintings back, even offering to pay for them, but they just smile, tell you how proud they are to have had them hanging up, then toss the lit match in to set the place ablaze. Can they do it? Legally, probably. Should they do it? Again, I'll only speak for myself when I say that I think it's unethical. It's not the closing of the restaurant that has me so riled up, though I have to question the sanity of doing it. It's the needless deliberate act of destroying something of value that someone else created when there are viable options on the table not to.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
    4. Yeah. Reverse engineering is illegal. Tell me again why NCSoft should listen to anything coming out of Save CoH? On the one hand, you're supporting an effort to steal their work, and then you're complaining they they don't want to talk with you?
    Sorry dude, but you're 100% wrong on this. Reverse engineering is most emphatically, unequivocally, not illegal. It occurs extremely frequently in the software world. We are at worst breaking the EULA, and even that is legally disputable. Emulators have been upheld as legal as well, as long as you are not infringing on someone's copyrights or trademarks--which is why we've stated that any public release of a server emulator would be with alternative content not utilizing the background, names, or stories currently in the game, unless we acquire a license for the IP from NCsoft.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
    From the beginning, TonyV and Save CoH have done a great job of mobilizing the community and reaching out to the media, and a terrible job of pretty much everything else. Or to put it another way, you can be a businessman or a revolutionary, but you can't be both.
    If you want to volunteer to be one or the other, step up to the plate. Until then, I'm doing the best job that I can.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Angelxman81 View Post
    Dont come and tell us u saw it coming, Brillig... Not even the devs saw it.
    I think he "saw it coming" about like anyone who has said, "That's it, the game is done," in the past eight and a half years. They're all coming out of the woodwork now to say, "See? I told you so."
  2. This needs to be validated. If I'm not mistaken, he said a little later that he got the dates confused, and that people would indeed be able to play on November 30.
  3. Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocArcus View Post
    The BBB is little more than a membership club to make it's members look better. It was a good place to get info on companies at one point, but no longer. You can pay for a better rating. There is no way a system like that can be called unbiased.
    This is true. I can't dig up the info right this second (day jobs suck), but I could swear I've seen articles and/or television segments in which the BBB has gotten in trouble for upping some members' ratings after they paid the BBB off. I've also seen this firsthand on at least one occasions with a company I used to deal with in Alabama.

    In fact, that's a major factor in why Angie's List has taken off--they have put it in writing that companies paying them money cannot affect ratings.

    As far as I'm concerned, the BBB is more of a scam than anything else. It might have started out as a good organization and in the distant past it might have been more-or-less accurate, but they are considerably less than trustworthy now.
  4. Having access to the reverse engineering crew, I'm almost certain that it will continue in some fashion. The only questions are details around how, and exactly how much functionality it will have. I'm still hopeful that we won't get to the point where this is our only option, though.
  5. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    And I think this is why I prefer face to face talk.
    My Skype name is tonyv.paragonwiki.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    cool stuff but always thought the CEO of NCSoft was Taek Jin Kim, since 2010. But hey something must pf changed recently.
    The CEO of NCsoft is Taek-Jin Kim. Dr. Song-Yee Yoon is the Chief Strategist and, as far as I can tell, the head of North American operations. She also happens to be the wife of Taek-Jin Kim, and apparently something of a prodigy. If I recall correctly, I think she earned her PhD in engineering from MIT at 24 and within a few years was running the largest telecom in South Korea. Not to discount Taek-Jin Kim as CEO, but the reason Mercedes Lackey reached out to Dr. Yoon is because they are both successful women in their respective fields, which gives them a starting thread of common ground. Plus, Dr. Yoon is one of two people who definitely has the power to override anything anyone else in the company says and tell them, "Make this happen."
  6. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
    ...which is why I'm admittedly disappointed by the news that the Titan Network has decided not to get behind a City of Heroes emulator.
    Wha--!!? Who told you that? It wasn't me, and it wasn't the guys who have been working their butts off precisely on this! Granted, this isn't our preferred resolution to this mess, but not only is it on the table, it is very actively being worked on. I said that there are issues to be worked through before it could be publicly released, not that it's not happening.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
    The Titan Network's Plan Z, on the other hand, is also admirable, and achievable. But it is also extraordinarily awesome in scope, and would be even for an already established studio. The idea that a group of players--some who couldn't agree on the most basic gameplay mechanics during their years on these forums--could get together and...eesh, it's a heavy order, even for an Optimism Incarnate like me.
    We have a secret weapon that we're hoping comes through on this front. It would still take a long time (at least two years, even under the most optimistic of circumstances), but we wouldn't be starting from square one with a bunch of people wondering "anyone know how to start a game studio?"

    And hey, in what capacity have you been working on the emulator for Earth and Beyond? We might want to tap some of your experience on this front. In any event, I wanted to say that I personally really appreciate your support. I've always enjoyed your posts; they're smart, level-headed, and funny. That kind of positivity is exactly what the community needs right now.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Leandro View Post
    Clarification: I'm not "with" the Titan Network. The site www.savecoh.com was a request from TonyV (and Altoholic Monkey bought the domain), but other than that, I just throw stuff online and see what sticks. Nothing I say is endorsed by the Titan Network guys and I probably say plenty of things that they don't like.
    Pfff, I'll endorse you. I think the stuff you've been doing is amazing. And for the record, I've had Leandro on Skype for what, about two years or so now? Certainly way before all of this stuff hit. It's not like you've just now made my radar.
  7. TonyV

    The situation

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    So are they not particular effective for what reason might I ask? Because they are pursuing their own path and not the one you or TitanNetwork members laid out? Or are they doing something that is not such a bright idea, that is besides striking out on their own accord?
    You can ask, but I can't answer. It has nothing to do with whose path is being followed; it has to do with what is being done. I provided an option that I know would be more effective for what they're trying to do. I never said, "Don't do what you're planning."

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    I'm truly interested in the answer because it's quotes like these that make it seems that the only way is your way.
    To be blunt, this is your problem, not mine. I have repeatedly said that people are free to do whatever they want to try to save the game; they don't have to get my permission or approval. And indeed, a lot of people have taken the initiative to do a lot of things--things that have been very constructive and useful. I might offer my opinion or my advice based on stuff I might know that they don't, stuff I can't explain or expound on, but I can't make them do (or not do) anything. If someone trusts me, great! If they don't, hey, no hard feelings, and good luck. If I'm wrong and you end up singlehandedly saving City of Heroes, I'll be more than giddy at your success.

    I'm not sure what you expect. For me to actively work on getting people not to trust me? For everyone to just split up and work on everything individually? For me to sit back and let people do things that I know are ineffective or even destructive without saying anything about it and trying to nudge them in a more productive direction? If that's what it will take for you to think I'm not some sort of egomaniacal dictator, I guess you're going to have to think I'm some sort of egomaniacal dictator. It's a shame, because I really think that I am a pretty nice guy that's easy to get along with.
  8. TonyV

    The situation

    Methinks that you're making a lot more of this whole "anyone who disagrees is a troll" attitude than is actually there.

    You seem to have seriously mistaken a couple of posts of mine in which I said that it's poor taste and trollish to come here and post that you don't care about the game to mean that anyone that cares about it less than I do isn't doing enough. I've tried to correct that perception a few times, but you seem to have gotten it stuck in your head so firmly that I can't budge it. That's a shame, and I'll say it yet again so that hopefully you'll go back and re-read the posts that you have so grossly misinterpreted and get what I actually said.

    Here it is in a nutshell: I have never demanded that anyone has to do X, Y, or Z to be a "loyal enough" fan to join our movement. I have consistently said that we'll take whatever level of dedication you're willing and able to give.

    I've also never said that you have to 100% agree with me or what I'm doing. I won't name names, but I've already run into someone who I suspect thinks that I'm just way off track and has decided to pursue their own path. I've sent some messages basically saying, "I don't think that would be productive, I think this other way is the best of course of action," messages I think have pretty much been ignored. But hey, more power to 'em. I don't think they're being particularly destructive, just not particularly effective.

    Also, one of the things that I've been really impressed with is how so many people have done things on their own initiative. Right now, I count my main accomplishments as: 1) rallying support for saving City of Heroes and getting people on board with the notion that it can be done, 2) giving them a place not controlled by NCsoft where they can gather and discuss what's going on, 3) helping to organize the Unity Rally, and 4) generating a fair measure of publicity, again with significant help of others. But creating graphic banners? I didn't ask anyone to do that. Creating videos? I didn't ask anyone to do that, either. I also wasn't the one who got retweeted by Neil Gaiman, Sean Astin, or Felicia Day. I didn't reach out to John Kovalic, Mercedes Lackey, or Scott Kurtz. I've used some of those efforts for publicity, but all of that stuff was other people taking initiative and filling in spaces where they saw a gap. If you really think that I perceive myself as the be-all and end-all of the Save City of Heroes movement, I don't know what else I can say to convince you that you are WAY off. I have consistently done my best to ensure that the credit for all of our accomplishments goes where it is due: to the community that is participating in these activities and making their voice heard. If we're successful, years from now I highly doubt that the world will remember my name, but I'm pretty sure that they'll remember the City of Heroes community that stood up and said, "Not like this."
  9. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Larcen3 View Post
    ...so I can set up my private server using Google Fiber?
    I hate you.

    (Help us Google-Wan, you're our only hope!)
  10. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen View Post
    I'll still think TonyV and his cadre are self-aggrandizing, pompous fools who reinforce stereotypical views of nerdrage.
    You know, I'm okay with this. If I didn't convey that impression to at least a few people, it would have been a clear sign that I was not emphatic enough and that my post was an utter failure for what it is designed to do: evoke a sense of exigency strong enough to call people to action.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen View Post
    By putting forth this silly slogan, he's implying that it's the game, not the community, that is worth saving. It's not.
    Actually--and hold on to your socks because I'm about to blow your mind--it's both. Saving the community is easy. I can keep the Titan Network forums running indefinitely, post a few "Hey everyone, let's just convene over there!" messages, and mission accomplished.

    If we stopped there, though, then 80+ people would still be out of a job and the labor of their love, their pièce de résistance, their Mona Lisa, would be destroyed for no good reason.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen View Post
    This game could be blown up and remade from scratch for all I care, so long as the community remained a part of it.
    Believing that is your prerogative. Some people think that if the Mona Lisa were thrown into a bonfire and destroyed, hey, no worries. It's just a thing, and it was really kind of ugly anyway. Others fall somewhere in between the two extremes on the spectrum. Different people are coming at this from different angles, and believe me, the community is a major consideration of why I have been fighting so hard.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen View Post
    We the community are not heroes. We pilot fake heroes in a fake game. That's not heroic. It never has been, is not now, and will never be. Implying otherwise is insulting to the memories of real heroes. Real heroes give their lives for a just and worthy cause, or at least come within mortal peril. That's how I define a hero. A hero is not some dude with an obviously wrong yet catchy slogan. Those are called politicians, and most of them aren't revered as heroes.
    So that's your cutoff? You have to put yourself in mortal peril? So someone who fights a company who is dumping waste and destroying environmental resources, they're not a hero? After all, there's very little risk of mortal peril in a courtroom with metal detectors and all. A football player who is a great sportsman and role model in convincing kids to pursue high standards of academic excellence instead of just worshiping his physical prowess isn't a hero? When John F. Kennedy was piloting his PT boat, I suppose that was pretty heroic since he could have been shot and killed, but when he was navigating the tricky minefield that was the Cuban Missile Crisis, that wasn't particularly heroic since he'd probably be pretty safe and sound in the event of an actual nuclear strike?

    To me, a hero is someone who fights for a noble goal, who clearly goes above and beyond the call of duty to set right things that are wrong. Are people who put their lives on the line to do so heroes? Oh, hell yes they are. Do you have to put yourself in mortal danger to be a hero? Absolutely not. And in that spirit, I really do think that we are heroes.

    What NCsoft is doing is wrong. Destroying years of hard work and creativity when there are viable options in which everyone can benefit is wrong. Laying off 80+ people instead of spinning off Paragon Studios and keeping those people employed is wrong. Needlessly destroying a large chunk of a strong community without warning after helping to build it up is wrong. To me, fighting against this injustice is a noble goal, and the people doing it aren't just piloting fake heroes in a game, they deserve every ounce of support, appreciation, and respect that people have to offer.

    Incidentally, if you still insist that lives have to be saved, people have told us that City of Heroes has quite literally saved their lives in some way by helping them through hard times and allowing them to make friends that they wouldn't have otherwise met. Maybe you think they're just being melodramatic, but I think they are serious. Maybe it's not as striking an image as running into a burning building and rescuing a child, but I think that it is worthwhile, and I'm extremely proud of every person here who has helped out in any capacity.
  11. Congratulations! Funny enough, I found out earlier today that I'm going to be an uncle again. My little sister is having a baby, her first. Excitement all around!
  12. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    Seems to me he was just sharing how he felt and his experience.
    I'll quote it again. READ IT.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BricksTown Thug15 View Post
    Me...am not upset at all. [sic]

    [A] majority of people that played on my server (freedom) just farmed and a majority of the toons were lvl 50 meaning less teaming during the lower levels which was a huge PIA. The people that did play lower level toons were either complete noobs and didn't know how to play or snobbish vets who were playing an alt and felt superior thanks to their vet status. Thats a terrible player balance.

    [D]oes anyone else feel the same? When I heard the news it really didnt bother me at all.
    And I'll say yet again, this is not just someone happily reminiscing about the game wistfully wishing it weren't over. It it someone insulting us and telling us how little it means to them.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    "I care more than you." "You should care more."..."the way I feel is right. The way you feel is wrong."
    I never said or implied any of those things, and I never will.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    "If you dont care just leave." "Why are you here?".
    When people come here and insult us and actively solicit people to express how little they care about the game, damn straight.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    If they are doing nothing that also means they are not trying to stop your efforts. Let them do nothing.
    If someone chooses to do nothing, I'm okay with that. Hopefully we will eventually pull them to our side. If not, hey, that's your prerogative, and I'm not being facetious. I never demanded that this game mean anything to anybody, and I have actively and repeatedly prevailed upon people completely outside our community to get involved knowing that the vast majority won't. I'm not mad or upset at them, and I'm not mad or upset at anyone else who chooses to do nothing. How many times and in how many ways do you want me to say it? Because if you think that I'm demanding that people get involved, we have a serious breakdown in communications.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
    That would be the respectful thing to do even at a funeral or visiting one that is on life support arguing over who cares about dying Uncle Jim more
    No, it's more like someone showing up at the hospital while Uncle Jim is lying there with a terminal prognosis and telling his wife and kids, "You know, Uncle Jim never meant that much to me. I really don't care if he dies." (starts looking and gesturing around to people in the hall...) "He was never fun to play games with. Does anyone else feel that way? Am I the only one?"

    So being one of Uncle Jim's kids, how does that make you feel? If someone says, "Dude, stop being an a**," do you still think that person is just espousing an "us vs. them" mentality?

    I've already spent too much time in this troll bait thread. Like I said, if you don't want to be involved in our efforts, I'm cool with that, no hard feelings. If you fire off an e-mail here and there but don't have time to send in capes and masks or take part in task forces, whatever time and effort you're willing to give, I really do appreciate it, whether it's a little or a lot. I don't even fault people who express that they think we won't succeed; I think they're wrong, but I'm well aware that the odds are against us. But if you come in here kicking people while they're down, don't be shocked or surprised if I kick back.
  13. Quote:
    Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
    I have had to deal with a barrage of (well intentioned perhaps) people giving false hope to far too many people in their time of need already to also put up with your guilt-mongering, not to mention calling me pathetic for being a realist.
    As someone else pointed out, I never said you're pathetic for being a "realist". I called people who came here to post how little the game means to them and trying to incite others to do so pathetic. Do you disagree? Do you think it's perfectly normal for someone to go around posting in other people's forums how trivial what they care about is to you?

    I tried Tabula Rasa when it came out. I didn't hate it, but I also didn't care for it very much. When they announced they were shutting it down, I didn't go to their forums posting messages about how little this meant to me, that I didn't really care for the game anyway. Do you know why I didn't do that? It wasn't because that's not how I felt; I really didn't care very much. It's because I'm not a total tool who likes going around kicking people in the emotional nads. (Though now, I might very well post in forums of people going through this letting them know that I do care and support them.)

    But as long as we're talking about being a "realist," try this on size. On August 31, no one--not even Paragon Studios themselves--thought that there was any hope that this game could be saved. People cleaned out their desks and went home thinking, "Well, I guess that's it." Not surprisingly, you seemed pretty ready to pack it in yourself. In response, I didn't blame you, but I did tell you then that I understood but thought you were wrong.

    That night, we found out that there were talks going on about keeping the game alive.

    Real enough for you?

    So now, a few more things have happened. Zwillinger posted some sunset information. Matt Miller answered some questions. Once again, the "realists" are telling me that that's pretty much it, we're done.

    If I didn't give up on August 31 when NCsoft and Paragon Studios said in no uncertain terms, "This is over, thanks for the memories," and I didn't give up on September 4 when you told me what the "realists" believe and we had had no sign that our efforts were doing anything, what makes you think that I'm going to accept your brand of "realism" any more now than I did on September 4 after you'd thrown in the towel then? What makes you so 100% certain that there still aren't talks going on? That even if there aren't, there won't be next week?

    "Realists" have been telling people throughout history what is and isn't possible. I'm sure that there were plenty of "realists" lining up at the door to tell the Beatles that a scruffy little cover band out of Liverpool could never hit the big time. I'm sure that there were plenty of "realists" helpfully telling Martin Luther King Jr. that colored people will never have the same rights as white people. Living in the Bible Belt South, I've had "realists" telling me all my life that society would never accept gay being normal, yet here we are today with many states recognizing gay marriage and even an institution like the military allowing people to be openly gay.

    I'm not trying to draw any kind of moral equivalency here to imply that we're the Beatles or Martin Luther King Jr., but in their spirit, I do not accept your brand of "realism". I know what the score is, and I know that what we're trying to do isn't easy and that we might fail in our efforts. On August 31, it seemed impossible. Now, thanks to the thousands of people involved in this, it's pretty well accepted that our hope is and was not false. If you really think it is, then more power to you but with all due respect, you are wrong yet again.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
    After that post, there is absolutely no way I would help you in any way, shape or form.
    Am I supposed to be disappointed or mad or something? I think you made that perfectly clear, and it's dampened my determination today exactly as much as it did three weeks ago: zilch. Or is this some thinly veiled attempt to convince other people who have witnessed our progress that they should follow your "realist" ideas? If so, good luck with that. Hopefully it will work just as well today as it did on September 4.

    I'd like to have your help and support, there's always room for one more. If I can't have that, then I'd like to at least have you not actively working against us; I understand that not everyone has the time or energy to do things they regard as tilting at windmills.

    If I can't at least have that, then you should really be careful putting your reputation as a "realist" out there like that. If you're right, you really don't have anything to gain by these types of posts because no one will be around to care. If you're wrong though, history doesn't judge kindly the "realists" who kept telling the people with drive and determination to make things happen that what they were trying to achieve was impossible.
  14. True story:

    I was in the secret focus group a year ago May, in which a small group of players were invited to provide feedback regarding City of Heroes: Freedom, Paragon Points, the Reward Bush, etc. Among the people there, four of us were from WAY out of town, flown in from other regions of the country.

    Andy hung out with us a lot during those two days we were in town, including taking us to some local places to eat, hanging out at the hotel until something after 2:00am (that's Pacific time--WOW was I tired but enjoyed the hell out of it), and taxied us around from place to place in his own personal car.

    I've seen him posting at all hours of the day, and he's always been incredibly nice and respectful no matter how people were trolling him and the staff of Paragon Studios. Frankly, I don't know how he keeps it all bottled up inside. I like to imagine that he has a room at his house with fist holes all over the walls where he just lets it all out.

    But I have never seen anyone so smart, engaging, caring, and dedicated to the community he has watched over. We've always had a fairly interactive bunch, but to borrow a phrase, he really took it to the next level. He championed Paragon Studios and City of Heroes blooming out onto Facebook, Twitter, Ustream/Twitch.tv, and Google+. His Freedom Fridays, Coffee Talks, and other unprecedented looks behind the curtains of our favorite game allowed us to feel more a part of the process than ever.

    Andy, man, wherever you end up, I know you're going to be putting the "fan" in fantastic, and for that, you're always going to be a key member of your team and an invaluable asset to your company. Anyone would be lucky to have you, and it's been an honor to talk to you over the years. If you ever need a reference, you could probably shout out to anyone here and they'd step up to the plate for you, and you can certainly count me among the people whose trust and admiration you've earned.

    Take it easy, and keep in touch. Let us know where you're going, because that's a community I'll probably definitely want to become a member of. And tell your wife and kids a huge "Thank you!" for letting us borrow you for a while.
  15. Quote:
    Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
    Because saying that we're not as invested as the passionately commited doesn't mean we're trolls or downers or anything else.
    Re-read the OP. He's not saying he's "not as invested as the passionately committed."

    The thread is titled, "Am I the only one not upset?"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BricksTown Thug15 View Post
    Me...am not upset at all. [sic]

    [A] majority of people that played on my server (freedom) just farmed and a majority of the toons were lvl 50 meaning less teaming during the lower levels which was a huge PIA. The people that did play lower level toons were either complete noobs and didn't know how to play or snobbish vets who were playing an alt and felt superior thanks to their vet status. Thats a terrible player balance.

    [D]oes anyone else feel the same? When I heard the news it really didnt bother me at all.
    Frankly, I don't know how you can read that and think it's not demeaning, and finishes on basically a call for people to post how little the game means to them.

    So yeah, when a bunch of us are working our butts off to save something we care about, I might get a little testy when someone comes in telling us how we're "complete noobs" and "snobbish vets" and calling for people to stop caring about it.

    I have never asked people to be as passionate about the game as some of us are. But when you come into our house, insult us, and kick us while we're trying to get back up, I find that in extremely poor taste. There are a lot of things that I'm just not into but other people are passionate about. If those things are in real danger of permanently being shut down or otherwise going away, I'll be damned if I go into their discussion forums telling them how little I care about it and asking, who's with me!

    If you think that I was saying that you don't give a flip if you're not busting your butt for our cause, then I apologize and hope that you will re-read my post, because that is not what I was conveying. I'm saying that IF you don't give a flip, then I don't care* and don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you. I still stand by that.

    *Clarification: I do care in the sense that I think that people who don't give a flip about the game should have a vested interest in helping us to save it just because it's the human thing to do, help other people in trouble out even when you don't have anything to gain from it. But if all you (the reader of this post, not SuperOz) want to do is come here and tell us how little you care, that's really pathetic.
  16. I've said all along that this game means different things to different people. I am upset because, as someone above mentioned, 80+ people were laid off. "It happens all the time," you say? Well, that's true, but it's also pretty sad. These people have been busting their butts, some of them for more than 10 years, working all sorts of crazy hours and being really good at what they do. I guess that it always bothers me when someone works really hard, does a great job, and their big fat reward is a swift kick in the a** out the door. You know how your mom always told you that if you work really hard and are really smart that you'll do well? Statistically speaking it might work out that way in aggregate, but this is just evidence that on an individual level, sometimes you're completely at the mercy of people who do not have your best interest at heart, and there's a steep price to pay for it.

    Nevertheless...

    I get it, I really do. To some people, this is "just a game." It shuts down, you move on to something else, ho hum. I've never demanded anything else from people who really don't care that much.

    But even if to you it's "just a game," surely you can empathize with those to whom it is more. Have you ever been in one of those bases that, when you walk in, you think, "Holy sh**, someone spent hundreds of hours designing this"? That's passion. Me, I'm not a base builder, and I've never spent more than a couple of hours or so on a base to make it look at least passable. If some program glitch came along and destroyed any of my bases, I'd be like, "Meh. Whatever, I'll just throw a new one together later, no biggie." That's how you sound about the game in general.

    However, if that same glitch destroyed the work of art that some people's bases are, places into which they've poured hundreds of hours of their creative effort (and it shows!), then even though I'm not into base building, that would absolutely rip me apart emotionally. Not because I'm personally affected, but because the product of someone's creative energy has been destroyed, and that's a shame.

    I've tried to convey to people that it doesn't really matter much how you feel about the game. It doesn't really matter if you even play the game. I see the detail that some people put into their characters. I see the intricate storylines that people have created in Architect Entertainment. I see the awesome pieces of art that people have commissioned in honor of their characters. And yes, I see how incredibly hard the writers, artists, coders, designers, and other staffers at Paragon Studios have worked to create the framework in which that stuff exists. And when I think about some company flipping a switch and turning it off because of some organizational realignment, it really makes me feel queasy inside.

    Do you like football? Anyone who knows me well knows that I'm a huge Atlanta Falcons fan. I've followed them for years. I went through the ups of the 1998 Super Bowl season, through the downs of Michael Vick's dog fighting conviction and Bobby Petrino's 4-12 "lost" season. With their schedule and talent this year, I really think they could go all the way. The past four years have been great--after 43 years without back-to-back winning seasons, they've now put together four in a row, started 2-0 in their fifth, and gone to the playoffs three of the last four seasons. In other words, they're doing pretty well.

    So what do you think fan reaction would be if all of a sudden Roger Goodell announced that he's really proud of the Falcons, but they're just not in the league's long term goals? Thanks for the support, but the team will be shutting down operations after the November 29 game against the Saints, and the front office staff are all being laid off. They're not going to be selling any more tickets to the games, but if you already have season tickets, you can still go. And don't worry, they'll refund season ticket holders what they paid for the unused tickets. The team isn't moving, it's simply vanishing into oblivion. You might be able to keep watching Matt Ryan when he moves to Oakland or Julio Jones when he moves to Miami, but you'll probably lose track of most of the players as they go their separate ways.

    People would at first be stunned, then they'd likely go nuts. Even people who have no interest in football would likely--hopefully--say, "That's just wrong." Does the NFL have the right to do such a thing? I'm pretty sure they do. Do the fans have the right to be upset about it? Oh, hell yeah. Would people saying, "I don't understand what the big deal is, you can always just watch other team" help alleviate the frustration and anger? Not a chance.

    How do you think fans would feel when some people say, "Am I the only one not upset by this?" The answer is simple, because it's the same way we feel. We're not asking you to like our game, but please don't trivialize how we feel about it. And even if you don't like our game, please at least have the respect for us to support what we're trying to do, quietly if you prefer, or out in the open by doing things like signing the Save City of Heroes petition. You don't have to be an avid member of a community to have the bare decency to not want to see it go away.

    If you're thinking, "I didn't say that I want it to go away," you might think that, but by posting threads like these, hopefully you can understand how demoralizing it is to us who are trying very hard to fight for it to continue. You may not mean to convey that, but that's definitely what is being conveyed. Other people who are fighting but tired see this post, and it might be the one that tips them over from, "I'll support them and see how it plays out" to, "Why am I doing this when other people think it's a waste of time?"

    So are you the only one who's not upset? Of course not. But please, I see no purpose in advertising your apathy to us. If you want to go, then go, and let those of us who are continuing to fight continue to fight. If you're right, come December, it's no skin off your teeth. But if you're wrong and there is a way to save this game but you convinced the people we need to stop supporting our effort, then you've needlessly done a heinous disservice to our community.
  17. Ooh, I got pictures! Here are some of mine:

    Infinity heroes waiting (mainly on me) to start task force:



    My first team. Most of them stuck around for part 2, but there was a little bit of shuffling between parts:



    Another shot of my first team, on our way to save Atlas Park:



    We took a few screenshots between part 1 and part 2. This seemed appropriate:







    And this was my team on Infinity facing off against the big baddie himself. I tried to convince them that maybe Dr. V isn't so bad, that his ideas might have merit, and I think that being an Eidolon wouldn't be so bad, but unfortunately, they wouldn't have any of that.

  18. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Winterminal View Post
    I've been trying to get on the Titan Network forums, but there's been a problem with my account. Sent in for help, but was informed that most of the guys capable of fixing the problem were pretty busy with #savecoh stuff (understandably). So I've only been able to lurk, but the lurking has been done!
    Sorry, things have been crazy. Please do the following:

    1) Clear all cookies from cohtitan.com or any subdomain thereof. (This is really important; we've had a lot of users over the years have issues because of stale cookies. It's definitely on our radar to fix.)

    2) Try logging into cohtitan.com.

    3) Try logging into www.cohtitan.com/forum.

    4) If one or both of those don't work, send me an e-mail at tonyv@cohtitan.com. Make sure you let me know which (or both) aren't working, and if you're e-mailing from an address that's not registered when you first signed up, let me know what that e-mail address is so I can find you in the database. If I need any other validation information, I'll reply and ask. Otherwise, I'll log into the database, sync everything up, and I might reset your password in the process since we store a salted hash in the back-end database, not the password itself, and can't reverse it.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
    Am I wrong in thinking that there's separate accounts for cohtitan.com and the forums that exist there?
    In the back end, they are separate accounts, but when you change your password on the Titan Network site, our code changes it in the forum back-end as well. Likewise, when you sign up on the Titan Network, it creates a forum account for you at the same time.
  19. Hey all, as probably most of you know, I'm one of the administrators at the Titan Network. This post might come off as a little self-serving, but the fact is that this web site and these forums are owned by NCsoft, run on NCsoft equipment, maintained by NCsoft (referring to the back-end, not front-end moderation), and paid for by NCsoft. As such, it's simply inevitable that along with the game, they are going to be sunset--possibly sooner rather than later.

    The practical situation is that whatever happens, we need a way to keep in touch if all of a sudden the site goes dark. (Been to Tabula Rasa's old home page lately?) Please don't take away from this that I know something is imminent; I don't. They could be up for months. But they could also be shut down any minute.

    Accordingly, you need to bookmark at least these three sites:
    • Titan Network forums: Once these forums go dark, this will probably be the primary hub of discussion among the player base. We'll be posting news and information as we have it, as well as asking opinions and engaging in discussions on our next steps in keeping City of Heroes alive. You can register and account on our home page.
    • Save City of Heroes and CoH Alumni: A couple of Facebook groups set up for players to connect to each other, post stuff for public consumption, and keep in touch. I know that there are more groups, and at some point we'll probably put a page up dedicated to links to those groups, but those are the two main ones I've been monitoring and posting on.
    • @TheTitanNetwork (Twitter): The Titan Network's Twitter feed. Eabrace is doing an awesome job maintaining this. Truth be told, he's doing a lot better job of keeping up with the latest and greatest of everything than I could possibly hope to. You'd do well to add it to your usual rounds of browsing for news and info.

    Hopefully at some point we'll all be able to kick back and laugh at that time that we thought the forums might go down. Realistically, I think it's not a matter of if it happens, but when. I just don't want people to be left out in the dark. If they do go down, please be sure you publicize to everyone where they can go to contact us and get the latest (or as much of the latest as we know).
  20. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Matthew_Orlock View Post
    Was this more "we were heard" or "We were told to piss off" type deal? It seems more likely to me that the latter is more likely.
    It was neither. They asked me to remove the e-mail addresses, and I voluntarily complied since I felt that its purpose had been served and leaving them up longer would likely mostly incur more troll e-mails than legitimate communications.

    Also, please note that I received another update today, which I've posted in the top post. We now have an e-mail address set up specifically for us to use to communicate without interfering with company operations.
  21. TonyV

    Confessions

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid View Post
    CoH was not my first MMORPG.
    My first MMORPG was The Realm sometime around 1997 or 1998. I quit it after getting temp-banned.

    What happened (and keep in mind this was a long time ago, so I might be misremembering some details) is that people I considered griefers would camp areas around mission entrances waiting for lowbies to come by. They'd ambush them and kill them. They didn't get any reward for doing so, but the lowbies would lose all of their equipment. Of course, they'd all claim, "Hey, that's just part of the game. Don't be such a QQ carebear."

    So I figured okay, if that's the way it is, then my character is the "sheriff" of this place. I took one of my uber level-capped characters and I'd park him where they couldn't see me. When they ambushed a lowbie, I'd join the fray, defend the lowbie, and kick their a**es. Of course, then the gnashing of teeth started. It was okay for them to camp a main route and attack lowbies, but if I camped the route and attacked them while they were attacking lowbies, well, that was unfair, waaaah! Typical bullies--as long as they have the upper hand, they're all bad and tough, but when someone bigger comes along, the story changes.

    One of them reported me for griefing, and even though I never talked to these idiots in chat, I guess for some reason I was just on the bad side of a GM that night because I got kicked out of the game and couldn't log back in.

    So I jotted off an angry e-mail to the support people, who nicely said my account had been reinstated, but by that point, I was sick of it anyway and never went back. That silly game is still running today, same 2D graphics. I guess there are still people who play it. More power to 'em.
  22. Quote:
    Originally Posted by moe4871 View Post
    I thought we were heroes? This is a really sad way to think. We lose a game, and then people want the company responsible for it to be harmed so OTHER people can lose their game?
    I stopped reading here, because this is exactly right. Let's just pretend for a second that I could snap my fingers and have Guild Wars 2 just disappear and NCsoft to go bankrupt because of it's stake in it. I wouldn't do it. You know why?

    Because I wouldn't have wanted an avid Tabula Rasa fan to have done it to us.
  23. TonyV

    Events calendar

    Hey all, Leandro was kind enough to set up a Google event calendar for us to use to coordinate our events. Right now, we have the Positron's Ally even coming up Thursday and Saturday on there, and a few other events he's culled from the forums. I'm going to be getting one of our coordinators to look around the forums and on Twitter for events to add as well. Hopefully this calendar will help you find events that suit your fancy that you'd like to attend and make it easier for you to keep track of what's going on.

    If you want, you can browse directly to the calendar using the following URL:
    http://tinyurl.com/savecohcal

    Alternatively, if you have a Gmail account, you can add the calendar to your personal Google calendar by following these easy steps:

    1) On your Google toolbar (which should show up whenever you're logged into Google and on any of their service pages), click Calendar.



    2) On the left side of the calendar page, click on the little arrow to the right of "Other Calendars," and on the popup menu, select "Add by URL".



    3) Copy and paste this URL into the URL: field, and click Add Calendar:
    Code:
    http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/o9p03krp81dmv3ardijljvifds%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics


    4) That's it! You should now see event entries for SaveCoH events on your calendar!