Sarrate

I know you've been around for a long time, but this strikes me as very odd. You're complaining about the end cost of Sprint, yet you leave Super Speed (which consumes 55.5% more endurance) on in combat? Not to mention that the stealth effects of both SS and Stealth IOs suppress in combat anyway, so keeping them running while fighting won't help you not get seen.

The highly simplified equation can be found either on ParagonWiki:

Or City of Data (Digest):

I say highly simplified because the game doesn't use a straight up formula like that - it's a long, complicated piece of code that does the computation.

I haven't played the set, but I'd strongly suspect KM becomes one of the aggro kings. Damage (and by the same rationale, resistance) debuffs are 8 different debuffs at the same time, after all. (Smash, Lethal, Energy...)

I suspect it's the real reason why AAO is such an obscenely strong taunt aura.

I bet 1.6 defaulted to having PvP Mode turned on and 1.8 defaults to PvP Mode off. It's the only way you were hitting 70.5% psi res.

So, the answer is no. Sorry!


[edit: To be clear, even with 1.6 you couldn't get those values in PvE.]

Note: Counting the number of attacks used isn't a good indication of whether things have changed. It's possible to hit a target with more attacks but kill faster due to higher dps/dpa. Do I know if that happened in your specific case? No, just saying that's a flawed metric.

You know, just because an AT is "dps" doesn't mean their role has to be easy. Other games have content that can win or lose based off the performance of their dps. If their damage output is too low, the encounter will defeat them. If they play poorly (stand in fire, steal aggro) they waste another class's resources (ie: healer's mana) and/or could die (leading to a wipe due to lack of dps).

Do "dps" characters here have less responsibility currently? Yes.
Does it have to be that way? No.
Would people welcome such a change? Most likely not.

For example, there are circumstances where that happens now where low dps can cause problems (can't out damage Ghost Widow's heal, Reichsman's regen while phased/Unstoppable, etc), and people find that quite frustrating.

The side problem is that buffs/debuffs in CoX are much stronger than they are in the other games I spoke of. Don't have enough "dps"? Buff/debuff until what you have is adequate. Group too squishy? Buff/debuff it until survival is trivial.

Of course, tweaking a game to be difficult like other MMOs would do irreparable damage to non-min/maxed builds. Am I saying CoX should be designed like other games? No, just pointing out that "dps" doesn't have to be an easy role.

Of course, there is always the "end game content" looming in the horizon. Who knows what that will bring...

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On a completely different note, just because someone is playing a Tanker doesn't mean they're playing any harder than a Brute. I've seen more than my share of Tankers who don't play any differently than a Scrapper or Brute.

From the looks of CoD, SoW looks fine to me, on all four ATs:

Brute
Scrapper
Stalker
Tanker
Compared to Unstoppable / FoN:

Brute
Scrapper
Tanker
Blaster

Castle while you're looking at FoN, you may want to look at its (and Unstoppable's) Recovery boost. It's currently flagged as unenhanceable even though the power accepts End Mod enhancements. It's been this way since at least the Combat Attributes window was added, if not release.

They can do neither of those things.

A Brute with 0% Fury and not using BU is still dealing ~61.2% the damage of a Scrapper with a 10% crit rate (non-minions) and using BU. Or to put it another way, the Scrapper is dealing ~163.38% the Brute's damage, still less than twice.

A Brute is always more survivable than a Scrapper because they have 12% more hp. They also have higher res/hp caps, so sets like Elec, Invuln, etc really benefit. Finally, Scrappers can't "tank" as well as Brutes because Brutes have far more taunt capabilities (taunt auras on all sets sans EA, Gauntlet-lite, and Taunt instead of [edit: Challenge]).


Note: I'm not saying you have to like the change, just what you're saying is wild hyperbole.

Yeah, that too. I didn't have the time to find the link to that when I posted.

This is expected. The Scrapper was generating exceptionally high threat (taunt from AAO while dealing damage) and the only threat you were generating was through Taunt. While it has a long duration, that alone won't let you pull agrro. (Keep in mind that there is a range modifier for threat, too. Generally, the farther away you are, the lower the mod.)

Nope. Chilling Embrace, while one of the stronger auras, isn't good enough all by itself to counteract Brutes and Shield/Invuln Scrappers. Using this equation:

Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)

Tanker
Threat = 0.8 * 2 * 4 * (AI Mod) * (Range Mod) * (13.5 * 1,000)
Threat = 86,400 * (AI Mod) * (Range Mod)

Scrapper
Threat = 1.2 * 2 * 3 * (AI Mod) * (Range Mod) * (16.875 * 1,000)
Threat = 121,500 * (AI Mod) * (Range Mod)

This is a very simple example, but illustrates why 'DPS' ATs with taunt effects will steal aggro from a Tanker without Taunt. With Taunt:

Threat = 0.8 * 2 * 4 * (AI Mod) * (Range Mod) * (80 * 1,000)
Threat = 512,000 * (AI Mod) * (Range Mod)

The Scrapper would have to be dealing roughly 4.2 times as much damage as you were. (So if you did 47.6 dps, the Scrapper would need to deal 200 dps - which may be easier than I originally thought since the Romulous fight has plenty of AAO fuel).

(Btw, good luck if you run into a Taunting Brute. Assuming 50% Fury and an 80s Taunt, they'd be pumping out 723,000.)

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Actually, I did think of one other possibility - were you buffed by any stealth effects that include a -threat mod (de)buff that the Scrapper didn't have (ex: Super Speed)? If you did, that'd be giving up your threat mod advantage, lowering you from ~512,000 to ~384,000. The Scrapper would only need ~3.16 times your dps to out threat you.


NOTE: These are simple examples/calculations, and likely not entirely accurate. I don't know it debuff threat multipliers stack, this doesn't count threat generated by CE's faster pulse rate, threat decay, etc. They'll give you a ballpark idea, not high precision results.

Well, a single debuff can double threat generation, so if debuff threat multiplications stack (2x for one debuff, 4x for two debuffs, etc), then the Scrapper would've had to be dealing 2 to 4 times as much damage as BrandX.

[edit: If debuff threat multiplication doesn't stack, then they were even in that regard.]

The taunt on Shield Charge is inconsequential - Against All Odds has a longer duration, so that's the one that would be used in the equation. BrandX's Taunt duration should be in the 77-81 second range. (That's 4.5 to 4.8 times the threat multiplication.) Not only that, but Scrappers have a lower threat mod than Tankers too.

I've seen Shield Scrappers steal aggro from Tankers all the time, but it's usually ones who a) don't have Taunt b) aren't using it enough or c) don't have it slotted well enough. This is the first case I've heard of someone using a very well slotted Taunt, dealing damage (even if at Ice Melee standards), and failing to hold aggro.


BrandX, out of curiosity, whats Taunt's recharge in your build?

That's very peculiar, indeed. I've held aggro off Tankers, Brutes, and Scrappers using a similar tactic on my WP/Fire (heavily slotted Taunt, used on cooldown and dps in between.) In fact, I've held aggro off all four Patrons on the STF against a Shield Scrapper before.

There are only two possibilities I can think of:

1) The Fire/Scrapper's damage output (being Fire/Shield of all things) was just outstripping yours (being Ice Melee and dropping an offensive attack for the hold) by a larger amount than your threat multipliers could compensate for... but you had far more debuffs being applied than the Scrapper. (Not sure if debuff threat multipliers stack or not.)

2) He was using Confront.

Very peculiar...

As of the last time I checked, you're correct. End Mod enhancement does nothing for Unstoppable. It's a bug. I think it's been like that since release, but I confirmed it back in the beginning of 2008.

[edit: To be clear, the error is that the recovery buff is unenhanceable, not that you can slot for it.]

The lower magnitude of the aura really isn't the real issue - it has surprisingly little to do with holding aggro. For taunt effects, MAG works just like it does for holds: it determines whether the mob is effected by them or not. Once you have MAG higher than their protection, any more is superfluous. Since the MAG from auras, Gauntlet, and Taunt stack, besting a mob's protection is trivial. The main reason WP requires more work to hold aggro is the duration.

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(I realize you didn't ask for tips on how to hold aggro, Gloryboy, but I habitually wrote the below before realizing it. I'm including it anyways, since I figure a casual observer might see it and find it useful.)

There are a few tricks I have for holding aggro over others with taunt effects:

1) Get to the spawns first, preferably 5-10 seconds before everyone else. (I try to leave the current fight while the team is cleaning up the stragglers.) Not only is it easier to hold aggro than it is to take it (you need double the current threat leader), but it also gives you time to set a nice long taunt duration on 5-10 foes via Taunt, with 5 more soon after.

2) Make sure your Taunt is well slotted. The default slot in Taunt isn't enough for heavy duty tanking these days. I like a good mix of both taunt and recharge enhancement, favoring taunt. (I personally use 5 Mocking Beratements, for ~95% taunt and 75% rech.)

3) Taunt often and different targets. If you just Taunt your primary target, then you'll only be hitting the same 5 or so targets over and over again. Imagine being surrounded by 15 mobs. The goal is to try to taunt 5 targets, taunt 5 different targets, taunt 5 different targets, then refresh the taunt effect on the first group of 5. With a well slotted Taunt (#2) the effect lasts long enough to do this and keep the duration high on all of them (60+ secs).

4) Don't skimp your attacks. This cannot be stressed enough. A big component of threat is damage output. The less damage you deal, the less threat you generate. The less threat you generate, the harder it is to keep (or take) aggro. For example, I don't consider 4 Kin Combats adequate. Also, when in a group of mobs, AoE your heart out. You may want to spread the AoE love a bit (similar to Taunt) to keep your threat generation up on all targets, rather than mostly those in front of you (from Cleave / Pendulum).

5) Don't give up. As mentioned in #4, damage is important. If someone has aggro on something nasty and Taunt alone didn't do the trick, start dealing damage to it. If you're Taunting and dealing damage but they're not turning to you, it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something wrong. Remember, you have to beat the current threat holder by a significant amount, which (depending on who has aggro and how long they've been engaged with the mob) can take time.


To the best of my knowledge, it was included to be WP's Achilles Heel, so to speak. I can't remember if that was explicitly stated or not.

Does that make it absurd that spiders make my skin crawl? I'd say I'm pretty much invulnerable to the variety in my area (small, non-venomous). There are lots of irrational fears like that - logically they make no sense, and yet...

Of course, most of the fears our characters face in game aren't natural - they're forcefully induced. We're talking Prof Xaviar entering Juggernaut's mind and stopping him in his tracks, kind of scared. They could be anything - reliving warped past events to vivid images of C'thulhu (and all the effects he is meant to instill).

To me, it's not hard to imagine someone who is invulnerable to be feared in that context.

I've managed to out-tank pretty much everything I've stumbled across in the game sans a Taunting Brute, which I've never run across. In the case of a Taunting Brute, I'd loose aggro anyways because of how threat mechanics work. (Damage is a large portion of it, and a Brute has the same threat mod, taunt duration/mag, and deals substantially more damage.)

The biggest factor in aggro generation isn't a Tanker's aura - it's Taunt. A stronger aura can make things easier against allies w/o taunt effects, but it will be quickly overwhelmed by allies that do.

That'd be true if the aggro aura was the only tool a Tanker had at holding aggro, but it's not. As mentioned above, Taunt trumps auras, and not by a little.

Don't misunderstand, I said that to ensure we weren't talking about different things (ie: SO vs IO), and adjust what I was saying if we were. If we're talking about SOs, then all "corner cases" become much larger. Sure, s/l may be a bigger deal when WP only has 13% s/l def (HS + Weave), but exotic damage becomes more an an issue (not insurmountable, mind yoU) on Invuln.

I'm not saying you need IOs - I've tanked on an Ice Tank in the 18-22 range in SOs before the I7 critter accuracy change (ie: higher lvl/rank mobs got tohit buffs instead of accuracy). I won't lie and say it was entirely smooth sailing, but doable. I've even tanked Lord Recluse on a (not-defensively built) DM/Invuln back in I9/10 before we knew the specifics of all the towers.

To be honest, if we include team buffs/inspirations/etc, most of these corner cases are easily mitigated.

You know what this reminds me of? GearScore in WoW. Players there can't always rely on a player's skill, so they opt to grade people based on their gear instead. They hope that, in the absense of skill, the gear will carry the person through the fights.

In this case, you can't rely on skill to hold aggro, so instead you rely on super powerful threat auras. I can't really blame you, since the number of people who really get threat mechanics is pretty small. To be honest, the people who lose aggro on WP Tankers are the same ones that lose aggro to Brutes and (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers.

I can regularly hold aggro over other Tankers, (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers, and Brutes on my WP - including fights like the STF where I herd all four Patrons - without worry. I'm fully aware that I'm the minority and not what you'd expect if you invited a random WP to your group.

I have two things to say about this:

1) The afk Tanker can hold aggro on a maximum of 10 mobs (compared to the 17 cap) and only if they're all within the radius of his aura (possible, but not guaranteed).

2) I don't think a Tanker should be able to take a bio break mid combat and hold aggro. That's a ridiculous assertion. A Blaster can't be expected to wipe out mobs while afk. a Controller can't control mobs while afk. Etc. You don't find it at all depressing that you're holding aggro on up to 10 mobs by just being there?


The more I get involved in threat discussions, the more absurd CoX's threat mechanics appear to me. (I should write a longer post about it, sometime..)


Ahh, I see. In that case, I'd say that's the same for any Tanker, then. Throw in some Psi damage (especially if you're using MA as a metric) and you'll be able to drop Invulns and Granites easier than you'd drop WP due to burst s/l. Again, it can be at the the 90% cap 2 min out of every 5 min. (I'm assuming we're talking about IOed builds here.)

What I'd say is a more real weakness for WP is def debuffs mixed with exotic damage. Pure s/l def debuffs (like Cimeroran's) aren't scary. Cimeroran's and Nicti though? That's where things get interesting!

WP requires a much more active approach at holding aggro, but it can be done - even over Brutes and (Invuln/Shield) Scrappes so long as they don't use Taunt. I won't argue that most don't know how to do it. (They'd likely be losing aggro against Brutes and (Invuln/Shield) Scrappers on a different set, anyways.)

Are you insinuating that WP isn't survivable enough because it doesn't have 90% s/l res? That's hardly a fair metric because a) most Tanker primaries would fail under that criteria and b) if SR Scrappers are soloing +4/x8 content, then I think a Tanker with "just" 70% s/l res, soft capped (or close to it) defense, 50%+ more hp, and a healthy dose of regen will be able to manage.

Seriously, alpha strikes stopped being a concern after adding Tough/Weave to my build in SOs.


By the way, WP can hit the res cap while under the effects of SoW, which is up 40% of the time.

There is no easy answer to this question. Unlike SO builds where the slotting of each power could stand on its own, IO builds are very interdependent upon the slotting of all powers. The power may sound like it's slotted fine on its own and still be suboptimal within the context of the whole build.


For what it's worth, I wouldn't put more than 4 LotGs into a defensive power. Four pieces should pretty much max out defense enhancement and the last two set bonuses (5th: hold res, 6th: 3.13% psi res) are throw away / mediocre.