One reason I heard, not from the Devs or anything, but that the reason its not on par with all the others is because.......
It would be overpowered. Every set has a weakness, and if WP had an equal taunt magnitude, it would probably be hands down the best set out there.
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The magnitude is not the real issue; it only comes into play when you have a scrapper or brute with a taunt of equal magnitude and longer duration. |
Originally Posted by GloryBoy
So, I have been playing my character for a while now; he is a WP/BA. I love the toon, he has become my main over the past two or so years despite being around since i2 or i3. Now, my question is why is it that Willpower has such a weak aggro aura? I haven't really ever seen an explanation to this and was simply curious. I do realize Willpower has a significantly high survivability and is pretty reliable in most incidents and blooms fairly early. I was just curious why the magnitude of taunt on WP's Rise to the Challenge is mag 3 as opposed to the usual mag 4, along with having a much lower taunt duration (1.25 as opposed to 10-15+seconds of most tanker taunt auras). I dont mind losing/having to fight for aggro when on a team with a tanker or even a brute, but my issue is when a /Shield or any other reliable/substantial taunt aura using scrapper tends to out aggro me. I admit, if I am throwing out my Taunt reliably and everytime it is up, then yeah, I have full aggro of the mob or that AV. However, if I say forget to toss taunt out on the AV then I am going to lose the aggro after a few swings by the scrapper.
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With WP, it's a matter of choosing priority targets and using skill. The team doesn't need you to taunt everything constantly, and if you know there's one big target or a couple of bosses it's not difficult to keep that one occupied.
Having lots of AoE and slotting for taunt helps. This guide may be of some help.
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"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I guess I could kind of see that. But I always thought the true weakness to Willpower that it never excelled in one particular field, that it was more of a jack of all trades...like, a mix of regen/res/def as opposed to strictly one the other or a duo of the two. I mean, arguably it might have not been a major weakness as it is reliably survivable but just made it more fun in my opinion. If thats the case also, I wonder why the drop off in mag, I figure that at normal mag with the drop off in duration being at what it is would be more then substantial of a debuff in regards to tanking, no?
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Heraclea,
I've read your guide recently today actually; it was my first time reading it and it is a nice little guide, but to be fair I think I had come to most of those conclusions already on my WP/Axe.
The only reason why I asked I guess was that I was noticing a few issues specifically running with scrappers that have a taunt aura, which is one of the issues you mention. It was more so an issue on my WP/DM who completely lacks the AoEs that this was mostly apparent (much more frequently then say my main WP/Axe whom only loses say AV aggro when the /shield or invul scrapper is wailing away and I havent dropped a taunt on him/her)
But again, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see in your guide as to why WP has such a lower mag. *shrug*
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Two things here...|
Originally Posted by GloryBoy
WP/Axe whom only loses say AV aggro when the /shield or invul scrapper is wailing away and I havent dropped a taunt on him/her)
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1. Maintaining positive aggro on AVs requires taunt.
2. Roughly... Damage Dealt x Arbitrary Taunt Aura Factor (ATAF) = Aggro Willpower has a low ATAF and Shield has a high one. Magnify that by the damage disparity and you get the picture. Taunt from your secondary helps you increase your ATAF substantially.
Heh, again, I know why/how to manage aggro (how it works for the most part) and do it fine; I was just hoping for an answer as to why the disparity between the mag i guess x.x
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The lower magnitude of the aura really isn't the real issue - it has surprisingly little to do with holding aggro. For taunt effects, MAG works just like it does for holds: it determines whether the mob is effected by them or not. Once you have MAG higher than their protection, any more is superfluous. Since the MAG from auras, Gauntlet, and Taunt stack, besting a mob's protection is trivial. The main reason WP requires more work to hold aggro is the duration.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
The magnitude is not the real issue; it only comes into play when you have a scrapper or brute with a taunt of equal magnitude and longer duration.
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(I realize you didn't ask for tips on how to hold aggro, Gloryboy, but I habitually wrote the below before realizing it. I'm including it anyways, since I figure a casual observer might see it and find it useful.)
There are a few tricks I have for holding aggro over others with taunt effects:
1) Get to the spawns first, preferably 5-10 seconds before everyone else. (I try to leave the current fight while the team is cleaning up the stragglers.) Not only is it easier to hold aggro than it is to take it (you need double the current threat leader), but it also gives you time to set a nice long taunt duration on 5-10 foes via Taunt, with 5 more soon after.
2) Make sure your Taunt is well slotted. The default slot in Taunt isn't enough for heavy duty tanking these days. I like a good mix of both taunt and recharge enhancement, favoring taunt. (I personally use 5 Mocking Beratements, for ~95% taunt and 75% rech.)
3) Taunt often and different targets. If you just Taunt your primary target, then you'll only be hitting the same 5 or so targets over and over again. Imagine being surrounded by 15 mobs. The goal is to try to taunt 5 targets, taunt 5 different targets, taunt 5 different targets, then refresh the taunt effect on the first group of 5. With a well slotted Taunt (#2) the effect lasts long enough to do this and keep the duration high on all of them (60+ secs).
4) Don't skimp your attacks. This cannot be stressed enough. A big component of threat is damage output. The less damage you deal, the less threat you generate. The less threat you generate, the harder it is to keep (or take) aggro. For example, I don't consider 4 Kin Combats adequate. Also, when in a group of mobs, AoE your heart out. You may want to spread the AoE love a bit (similar to Taunt) to keep your threat generation up on all targets, rather than mostly those in front of you (from Cleave / Pendulum).
5) Don't give up. As mentioned in #4, damage is important. If someone has aggro on something nasty and Taunt alone didn't do the trick, start dealing damage to it. If you're Taunting and dealing damage but they're not turning to you, it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something wrong. Remember, you have to beat the current threat holder by a significant amount, which (depending on who has aggro and how long they've been engaged with the mob) can take time.
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Originally Posted by GloryBoy
Heh, again, I know why/how to manage aggro (how it works for the most part) and do it fine; I was just hoping for an answer as to why the disparity between the mag i guess x.x
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As to why, I don't know; it's a design decision by the devs. Willpower was designed to have to work for aggro, and was given the tools to do that; it's a set that relies on offense as well as defense, similar to Shields and Fire. |
Originally Posted by GloryBoy
The only reason why I asked I guess was that I was noticing a few issues specifically running with scrappers that have a taunt aura, which is one of the issues you mention. It was more so an issue on my WP/DM who completely lacks the AoEs that this was mostly apparent (much more frequently then say my main WP/Axe whom only loses say AV aggro when the /shield or invul scrapper is wailing away and I havent dropped a taunt on him/her)
But again, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see in your guide as to why WP has such a lower mag. *shrug* |
And those scrappers with a taunt aura aren't probably characters you need to worry a lot about. If they want to leapfrog you, let 'em. It's their game too. Unless it's a master run of some kind, the worst that could happen to them is that they get over their heads, and it's up to them to learn their limitations. You are not to blame if they run past you, no matter whatever happens to them.
Again, you have to pick priorities, and if scrappers want to tank let 'em. They can. You'd be better off minding the back row and keeping Taunt available for breakaways. This too is a useful service.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Eh, I am not much of a backrow kind of tank 
But I do understand what you're getting at and agree it is a service one can provide.
It seems the consensus is that it is the intentional "achille's heel" and if that is the case, I am fine with that; I was simply curious as to the reason for the numbers. As everyone has mentioned and from my personal experience, it is possible to hold/out aggro other tankers (and scrappers) with WP and there are many methods and such to do so. I was just hoping for some clarification as to why the mag+duration were so low and although there was no Dev response you guys make it seem like its an intentional weakness to a great set (which makes sense) and that is a good enough answer for me, so thank you 
And in response to Heraclea, you're right about not really having to worry about the scrappers with the taunt auras. I admit there is only a handful of scrappers I have been having issues where I really had to "work" for my aggro. Although, many times, is it necessary/do i need that aggro? No, those scrappers that can occasionally steal my aggro tend to be those that are decked out in the flashiest of IOs and already have survivable secondaries. My only real concern is when running a MoSTF/LGTF and they're being a bit too aggressive or incidents such as Ghost Widow, where my Gauntlet use is usually limited; even then still not majorly concerned as I have figured ways to deal with this (a la jousting). Usually leap frogging doesn't occur on any of my tanks, just because after 5 or so years I have simply developed a pace that keeps up with or trumps the almighty scrapper-lock :P
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I was under the impression that WP's intended weaknesses were that, with such low Def/Res/Regen values it "couldn't handle alpha strikes" as well as other sets (though with the combined values it can easily survive the standard, sustained dps of most enemies) and it was defensively "underpowered" versus a single, hard foe compared to other sets, due to the nature of RttC. It also lacks end drain and -recovery protection, and I'm not sure how much other debuff protection it has.
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Originally Posted by Absorber_NA
One reason I heard, not from the Devs or anything, but that the reason its not on par with all the others is because.......
It would be overpowered. Every set has a weakness, and if WP had an equal taunt magnitude, it would probably be hands down the best set out there. |
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My original impression was more or less this; that it had lower res/def numbers (wouldn't go as far to say low regen, as I was always under the impression it was more of a regen tanker) and was less an alpha tanker then the others but maybe had slightly less holes then others. So to say the "fight for aggro" is a intentional hole if you will, then I guess it makes sense; but the reasons you did mention were my original impression and why I was curious as to why there would be a need for such a hole.
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Originally Posted by AllYourBase
I was under the impression that WP's intended weaknesses were that, with such low Def/Res/Regen values it "couldn't handle alpha strikes" as well as other sets (though with the combined values it can easily survive the standard, sustained dps of most enemies) and it was defensively "underpowered" versus a single, hard foe compared to other sets, due to the nature of RttC. It also lacks end drain and -recovery protection, and I'm not sure how much other debuff protection it has.
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Originally Posted by AllYourBase
I was under the impression that WP's intended weaknesses were that, with such low Def/Res/Regen values it "couldn't handle alpha strikes" as well as other sets (though with the combined values it can easily survive the standard, sustained dps of most enemies) and it was defensively "underpowered" versus a single, hard foe compared to other sets, due to the nature of RttC. It also lacks end drain and -recovery protection, and I'm not sure how much other debuff protection it has.
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then you've never played a WP tanker.
my current one is at 40% def across the board, regens 60hps/sec standing still out of combat, and with just 4 foes around her is hitting 180 hps/sec, topping out at 240/sec with a larger group... throw in the 70 s/l res, 30-40 in all others. it's basically unkillable. (she so rarely uses her teir 9 power, i forgot what it's called, i just use it to recover her end when fighting an end draining sv)... and i wouldn't say she's optimized... she's still about 3 billion inf away from optimizing.
and yes it's solo tanked StF a number of times without dying... so the "single foe" weakness is not really a weakness (she's still regening 90hps/sec vs a single foe)
as for agro... WP is hard to manage agro. if you have people on your team dishing real damage it's a challenge to keep the agro on you. It basically takes keeping taunt on auto-cast and spend a good chunk of your time finding stranglers who are not targeting you and taunting them, in between attack chains.
its not easy but you can do it...
So, I have been playing my character for a while now; he is a WP/BA. I love the toon, he has become my main over the past two or so years despite being around since i2 or i3. Now, my question is why is it that Willpower has such a weak aggro aura? I haven't really ever seen an explanation to this and was simply curious. I do realize Willpower has a significantly high survivability and is pretty reliable in most incidents and blooms fairly early. I was just curious why the magnitude of taunt on WP's Rise to the Challenge is mag 3 as opposed to the usual mag 4, along with having a much lower taunt duration (1.25 as opposed to 10-15+seconds of most tanker taunt auras). I dont mind losing/having to fight for aggro when on a team with a tanker or even a brute, but my issue is when a /Shield or any other reliable/substantial taunt aura using scrapper tends to out aggro me. I admit, if I am throwing out my Taunt reliably and everytime it is up, then yeah, I have full aggro of the mob or that AV. However, if I say forget to toss taunt out on the AV then I am going to lose the aggro after a few swings by the scrapper.
Not so much complaining here either, to be fair, I have worked my main's playstyle around for the most part so the whole losing aggro thing rarely happens but yeah, have always wondered this and simply was really reminded of it when playing a wp/dm and how I was almost always losing aggro (lack of AoEs obviously hurts the gauntlet) anyways...I love my tanker... I was just curious why my taunt aura was inline with Scrappers and severely lower then other Tankers. (I was never a forum reader or anything when WP was released so I am sure I missed the reason for this at one point or another.)
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