Samuel_Tow

The reason I say this is I equate level shifts with levelling. I know that they're not, you don't have to correct me. But, as you said, we're in it for the level shifts. And levelling in the rest of the game isn't considered "the good stuff." It's considered the stuff everyone is supposed to be doing.

If the worry is that no-one would bother going past Uncommon without appropriate bait - and I can see that as a legitimate concern, mind you - then I will have resurrect my old Hamidon argument. If people cannot be expected to bother with a task or an achievement, then just tossing in a larger reward is not the right solution to it. If people are unwilling to bother past Uncommon if not for the level shift, then I dare say the powers themselves aren't good enough. Either that, or they're too much of a bother to achieve.

And that's not me fabricating things, either. That's me going off your argument. If people would not bother with Rare and Very Rare Incarnates were it not for the level shift, there's a bigger problem with the whole structure than just where you put said level shifts.

*edit*
But if the level shifts are determined to stay as exclusive content, then that just means I'll have have to do without them, in much the same way I've done without Set Inventions. Pity.

Yeah, I don't dispute the truth of that fact, and it's a situation I can accept, provided there are options and alternatives. As I said before, it's easy to get the "my story" feeling solo, and it's quite doable to achieve that on a small-ish team. It's when you get into large teams and multi-team encounters that this breaks down, and I don't really think there's anyway to avoid that.

That's why I'm not suggesting we avoid it, so much as supplement it. I'm often seen as arguing for soloable story arcs because I'm an anti-social ****. While that may be true, this isn't why I argue for them. I simply recognise that multi-group content isn't the place to look for personal glory. However, I don't want to argue for removing it, as that would be stupid. So instead, I ask for an alternative that's perhaps somewhat less "epic" (for the "large-scale event" definition of the word), but a lot more personal than open warfare. It shouldn't take away from the zeal of fighting in a giant conflict. It should instead supplement the experience with a more personal focus that we can more easily pretend is our own little spotlight.

I think I spoke about it upthread, but even just one Incarnate story arc per Incarnate Trial would be enough to keep me off the forums, and enough to keep my suspension of disbelief strong and lasting.

I agree with the rest of your post in general, but this particular argument I want to comment on, because it kind of bugs me when I see it. I don't discount that that's what the intention behind the Incarnate system was, but I'm not sure if 24-man raids are the right way to make one feel any less like a second-stringer. Yes, we take on the Praetorians (who I'm told are supposed to be a lot more awesome than they actually are), but we're still second-stringers to them, because it takes a dozen of us to take on one of them.

To my eyes, what made me feel like a main character far more than this was the Mender Ramiel arc and, hell, even the revamped Maria Jenkins arc. In those arcs, it's usually the bad guys who are ganging up to defeat me, personally, rather than me ganging up on single ones of them.

Yeah, I know it's standard MMO procedure, but that in itself is making me lose my taste for Trials and TFs right quick. Even the Admiral Stutter TF is losing its lustre now, and I actually like that one. The cheapness that is the two Durays is just too annoying.

Oh... I must have misread what you meant Yeah, that's kind of in the spirit of what I was talking about, but when it comes to melee weapons, at least, I've always been more a fan of a large cone rather than a PBAoE. Maybe I'm biassed, in that Shaman King was one of the first decent animes I saw, but I've always wished for a power that's kind of like Yoh's Celestial Slash. We kind of sort of get something like that in Dual Blades' Sweeping Strike. I'm talking about something like that, but even bigger.

That said - no, I would not be picky if I were given the hurricane of melee weapon power you suggested. I would be thrilled, in fact

These two are easily my favourites so far. Both of them have a 50 of mine who would benefit from them greatly, and both sound really cool.

Love your description of the graphics and effects, by the way. They aren't always what I'd have pictured, but you do a very good job of describing events on-screen, in a way that's actually inspiring to read. Thank you.

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Are we still on for a "per weapon" based Incarnate power?

Maybe the fact that I actually took the time to make a reasoned argument which was met with "lol its your fault lol" perhaps? I had the mistaken impression that Valgrisk was genuinely interested in an argument on the subject, when he was clearly interested in telling me how much I'm wrong. I know, stupid me. Why do I let that surprise me any more.

Because, after all, MMOs can never make us feel like the protagonist of the show like City of Heroes story arcs do, no sir! And, as we all know, City of Heroes was most certainly not an MMO before it got end game, so that statement remains true - no MMO can make any one single player feel special without doing so at the expense of other people on the team. That'd be just silly.

After all, what did I expect? That people would care to actually read what I wrote and make a reasoned argument based on how it relates to game precedent and personal opinion? Yes, I clearly have a lot to learn. Why bother with such a thing when you can just handwave another person's argument AOL speak and basically laugh in his face. That's so much easier and takes so much less effort to put together. Why can't I ever think to do something like that, myself?

See, even now that I'm writing unnecessary snark and needless sarcasm, I can't keep myself from looking for an actual argument to tie into my mess of a post. Why can't I simply respond with a Golden Girl one-liner? It'd be just as insulting to people's intelligence while requiring far less work.

You had me fooled that you had an actual argument there for a second. Lesson learned.

I'm with the Uber Guy on this one. This is one reason why I've been so adamant about speaking my mind and why I've encouraged others to do so, even in the absence of logic and even in the absence of supporting arguments. Because sometimes how people "feel" and what they get out of a product is in itself useful information to a development team that knows how to interpret that and what might be causing specific reactions.

This in no way means I expect anything any of us say here to be taken as-is and implemented onto anything, that's not the point of feedback. The point of feedback is to give back impressions and experiences. What the team actually makes of those is entirely out of the players' hands. As it should be.

*edit*
Rather, as I'd like it to be.

I think it's getting high time we got a voting system in place. So I say when the minimum number of people for a Trial is reached, let them all vote to start. Then add more and more weight to each vote the more people you get. Off-the-cuffs example:

With a Trial 12/24 people, require 11 votes to start. With a trial that's 23/24 people, require just three. League Leader would always get the option to veto any voting decision, of course, as well as make executive decisions without need for approval.

The reason for this is so that players control when the raid starts, rather than an arbitrary timer.

And I happen to detest these stories every time they crop up. The "crossover event" is easily one of my least favourite storytelling devices, and considering how many things I hate, that's saying something.

The thing is, I don't want to compete with people. Like I said before - I don't want to be "the star" if that comes at the expense of making other people feel inadequate. Let me explain:

When I team with friends of mine, most of the time it's me on a high-level character with a low-level character SK. You'd think this would make me feel like the big hero against the backgrop of a much weaker character, but instead it just makes me feel bad for my team-mate. In part because I've been there and I know how it feels, in part because said team-mate often comments that "Yeah, but you kill them before I have chance to get my debuffs out" or, the other day "I can't even target them!" This doesn't make me feel like a hero. It makes me feel like a bully, like I'm taking advantage of another person.

Long story short - I want to feel super and special and like the hero of the story, but NOT at the expense of other people. We all paid for this game, we all have an equal right to be "the one," ideally all at the same time. It sounds like a conundrum, but it doesn't have to be one.

There really aren't many other ways that are interesting. I've watched plenty of movies, played plenty of games, read and written a lot of stories, and the one thing I've come to realise is that unless the narrative lets a character shine, this character never will. Yes, said character can be given consolation prices, but it's a hollow experience overall. You need to give everyone their own personal chance to shine, and there just isn't the opportunity to do so with 24 people.

Less so to concept and more so to how generic pool powers are. Take THE most basic super power of all: Flight. Fly is a power that makes you fly. End of sentence. Even its combat text is "You are flying!" with an exclamation point. It doesn't imply AT mechanics, it doesn't imply a specific element, it doesn't imply anything, really, other than the ability to fly, which can come from probably the genre's widest set of backstories.

Judgement powers, especially, can be a bit more difficult to explain. But like I said, I'm not sure I want to argue that angle because you DO have a point. If everyone can share the same pool powers, I need a better reason why everyone shouldn't share the same Incarnates.

Speaking purely for myself, ANYTHING to do with a sword would be fine by me, so long as it did damage primarily. I've never been the kind of snob who looks down on single-target attacks because "the game is all about AoE," and I've actually campaigned for signature powers of that nature, back when that's what we were calling them. I envisioned a really long melee "combo" type power that lasted for a good 5-6 seconds, which nevertheless did ABSURD levels of damage to a single target.

I mean, AoEs are cool, but I learned my lesson early - you very much CAN have too much AoE and not enough single-target. My AR/Dev Blaster showed me that beyond a shadow of a doubt. AoE is good for mowing down legions of minions and cackling like a little kid, but once you face that particularly tough EB, all that AoE is worth about as much a sack of dead rats. It does crap damage for an obscene cost, it recharges too slow and it's mostly wasted. Now, I know Incarnate AoEs deal serious damage even to single targets, but just imagine if the damage it does to just, say, three or four targets were consolidated into one single-target attack?

Marauder, here I come! Please use your 90% resistance power so that I may test you!

All's I'm sayin' is there's room in the game for everything.

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To harken back to the original topic - having nuke surrogates available to all ATs gives me one less reason to reconsider deleting all my Blasters. I HATE the balancing on their existing nukes, and now I can get a similar effect on my Scrappers. Why would I bother with a squishy Blaster, then?

Rare Incarnate powers are about as "hard" to acquire as rare Inventions, which is to say "not very." But that's not the point. They're still rare, and they're still one step beyond the mdeian. After all, the Rare Alpha Incarnate powers require a NotW, whereas the Uncommon ones do not. To my eyes, that's a clear separator between those who want "just enough" and those who want the good stuff.

Look at it from my perspective - I don't use Inventions Sets (one Steadfast Protection notwithstanding) because I consider them to be too much of a bother. And for the most part, I accept that my characters are weaker for it. However, I can still earn my "levels" independent of said sets. That's all I want to see with Incarnates, myself.

The powers I can live with not having the best of, but the level shifts strike me as integral to the system's feel of progress. I merely feel they should be available before the rarity divide.

Someone calling for me?

Yes, of course. Why would anyone take people questioning their sanity, their psychological health, their intelligence and their personal integrity, err... Personally. Those are just words on a computer screen. Forget socialising with people. They're just pixels on the screen, there for me to achieve my goals. They don't have goals, because they don't matter and I suspect they aren't actually real people. Just names on a screen, you know? Why should I care about anything they have to say, or how they feel, or what they care about.

I mean, it's not like this is a social game or anything. It's not like being part of a greater community is a big selling point. Yeah, people have been saying that for years now, but that doesn't make them right. After all, who gives a toss about them? They're just words on a computer screen. It's not like there are real people behind them or anything, hell no!

What other people say, think or do doesn't matter. Except when it does. Curiously, it seems like we can have it both ways. I'm still not sure how that goes, but maybe I'm just not intelligent enough to decide when other people matter and I should socialise with them, and when they don't matter and I should feel proud to ignore them without being branded an anti-social pariah, not that I'm bitter or anything.

But I'm learning. You live and you learn, right?

Which isn't what I said, but I'm OK with being that guy who's famous for saying things he never actually said.

I consider Common and Uncommon Incarnate abilities to be the bread and butter of the Incarnate system, with Rares being "special" and Very Rares being exclusive. As such, I prefer to put the level shift on the far end of the bread and butter of the system, rather than treating it as a reward for the more exclusive portion of it.

In short, let people have their level shifts earlier, but keep the awesomeness of the actual powers where they are.

Not to mention that this time scale is very skewed from what I'm seeing. To get a new power in the 40s takes "a week" if you're doing it alone. Once you join a team, things drop significantly, to the point where I can earn "a power" over the span of one 90-minute ITF unless the team is anal about stealthing every damn mission.

I don't buy it. There's no reason player names could not have been written in white like they are in the new system, or why the green background couldn't have been the much darker shade that was in the classic menu.

To my eyes, the "classic" team menu is a botched rush job, and it looks terribly unprofessional of what is supposed to be a professional development team.

So, basically a Shield Charge clone but with a swinging sword? Yeah, that would be a perfect solution, actually, and it's not unfeasible to implement, either. I like it!

There's no such thing as "so powerful it's boring" in my book

Personally, I'm waiting for pet customization, or alternately a "space soldiers from the future" Mastermind set, because right now Robotics is the only reasonably futuristic set we have access to.

I have no non-melee characters. Period. Well, not counting Masterminds, but I'm not sure what they can be classed as. And while I'm sure that's probably the source of my problem, seen as many melee sets are weapon-based, I just prefer how those play.

Tell me about it. I got a Dark/Dark Scrapper to 40 just last night, and he has Dark powers which recolour based on his costume, all in vivid bright colours, like blue, yellow and red. The Dark Mastery powers, however, are the same old black/purple. I'm at a loss for options.

Though, to be fair, having discovered that Dark Mastery for Scrappers sucks strawberries through a drinking straw, I've decided to do the sensible thing and get him Body Mastery, instead. It should help with his end AND it won't ruin the visual aspect if I keep off the energy blasts.

*edit*
And I listed my 50s in another thread, but I'm shocked to discover that over half of them are weapon users with no "projectable" powers. Sword, sword and shield, axe and shield, that sort of thing.

I did log into my Axe/Shield/Energy Brute, who is currently my highest along in Incarnate progression, and I had the sudden urge to put her through the Incarnate game. But then I realised there wasn't anything to get that would fit her and that killed my enthusiasm dead right then and there. That's kind of why I've been arguing for alternate visuals.