The backwards nature of required teaming
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 09:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The threats we face get tougher as we level up - so we need a little extra help, even when we become more powerful 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I have the impression that it's supposed to create an epic sensation. "Stars and garters! We'll need THREE teams to defeat this menace!!"
I don't know how well it works vs just annoying people but I suspect you'll need less people as more folks have Incarnate Shifts and the additional powers. Out of the gate, it was more like having a six man ITF where the leader is 50 and everyone else is lvl 35. Once everyone is 50, a six man ITF ain't nothin' special.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The threats we face get tougher as we level up - so we need a little extra help, even when we become more powerful
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Exactly! Now they changed Posi but if you were around back before it was split into two shorter TFs it was the only task force that had no AV. The thing took hours to complete back then since no one had a travel power before 14, raptor packs didn't exist, and neither did mission teleporters. Some people actually split it up over two days and there were times when a single team member would log on and do missions by him or herself just to speed things along. It WAS actually possible for one person to complete the TF solo.
Now between IOed out builds and purpled out builds there are players out there soloing even the hardest TFs but back when the best you could hope for were SO enhancers no one was even thinking about trying to solo a Maticore and facing Hopkins solo.. now he's pretty much the wimpiest AV we see. LOL Hey I have an 50 level IO in every slot of my MAIN and I don;t think I'd even want to consider doing a STF solo
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part 1 of the new posi still has no AVs lol
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Exactly! Now they changed Posi but if you were around back before it was split into two shorter TFs it was the only task force that had no AV. The thing took hours to complete back then since no one had a travel power before 14, raptor packs didn't exist, and neither did mission teleporters. Some people actually split it up over two days and there were times when a single team member would log on and do missions by him or herself just to speed things along. It WAS actually possible for one person to complete the TF solo.
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As you advance in your power, you become aware of greater and greater threats-- thing you'd never have been powerful enough to take on yourself, and things that are STILL well beyond your capabilities...|
Originally Posted by Adelie
This is something that has always struck me with City of Heroes, right from the start. Why does the required number of heroes to run a TF go up as the level requirement goes up, even though there are more players at the lower levels (this has become less true has time has gone by but still the point stands, especially since higher level characters can examplar).
Now with the raid content, we are expected to find not just a full team of players to start it but multiple full teams of players. Thank goodness for the new team formation que thing. Without this this would fail completey on all but the busiest servers. It still may as time goes by and the novelty wears thin. I always thought it was kind of odd that Positron can be done with so few heroes and yet all (or most) of the level 40+ TFs require 8 players. Should you not feel MORE super as your career progresses and not less so? You get more powers and get better rounded, etc. Controllers get pets later on in their careers for example and would be more able to solo or small team content, and yet the solo or small team focussed stuff is designed for the low level characters? It just all seems very backwards to me. |
... but in your adventures, you've made allies with their own diverse powers. Where any single one of you wouldn't stand a chance against some threats, working as a team you can face and overcome even these immense challenges.
And it isn't a sign of weakness at all. If anything, its another sign of your accumulation of power. True power doesn't just lie within. A mage may put to use the energies around him to cast spells. A power-armored super uses the technologies at his disposal. A martial artists uses every bit of his being to become the ultimate fighting machine. All of these ALSO have the ability to harness the unique talents of the allies they accumulate along the way, making them much more powerful than if they tried to go it alone.
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Funny you should mention Manticore. I actually did solo Manticore's TF on my Kin/Sonic Defender back before IOs were introduced (To this day, she still doesn't even have any IOs since I got burned out on her after hitting 39). Started out as a pretty full team, but the first mission totally owned us. I'm still not sure exactly what was going wrong; I assume that some members of the team were just not pulling their weight. So, a bunch of people quit and some just logged out. I logged out as well. I logged the character back in the next day and saw that I was still in the TF... So I figured, why not, I'm pretty good solo on this character. Ran through all the missions with no problem. When I got to Hopkins, I busted out a Warwolf, Amy, and a snowman. So, I didn't technically solo him by some standards, but pretty much I did.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
...back when the best you could hope for were SO enhancers no one was even thinking about trying to solo a Maticore and facing Hopkins solo...
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That said, I'm not really sure how I feel about the large team requirements. Yeah, it feels more epic to take on full spawns and AVs by yourself; but if there's nobody else around, it loses its appeal. I haven't run the new trials yet, so I can't really comment on those. I do typically prefer small teams of good players rather than large teams of indeterminate skill levels though. I do agree that it feels a little backwards that low level TFs have smaller team requirements than high level. If I can take out an AV with two teammates at level 15, why do I need seven others at level 50? I know, the level 50 AVs are far more powerful than Doc Vahz; but I'm a whole lot more powerful at 50 too.
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False. |
Originally Posted by Adelie
Now with the raid content, we are expected to find not just a full team of players to start it but multiple full teams of players. Thank goodness for the new team formation que thing. Without this this would fail completey on all but the busiest servers. It still may as time goes by and the novelty wears thin.
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I ran 2 completely full pre-formed BAFs last night on Pinnacle. Pinnacle is far from the busiest of servers.
And there were more forming when I logged out for the night.
Saying it would fail without the queue is just silly, since it takes 3-4 times longer to get in one through the queue than it does by figuring out which zone people are forming them up in and going there. (Usually Pocket D or RWZ, because the trials are co-op)
From what I've seen, the queue is where the majority of the fail lies in this system.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
From a pragmatic standpoint, as I am trying to bring a realworld friend into the game, I would never start her on the trials. This is someone who is a novice when it comes to video games and pretty much uninitiated with MMOs entirely. The trials are just too hectic in this regard and it is a bit too easy to fail them (or at least miss out on badges and astral merits) if even 1 player loses the program.
Meanwhile, the original game is much more sedate and calm by comparison. A good place to learn and ramp up. I know this doesn't solve the narrative conundrum described by the OP but it is a very real pragmatic concern, one easily overlooked if you've been playing the game long enough to have a few incarnates already.
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This.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
From what I've seen, the queue is where the majority of the fail lies in this system.
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I just hope it isn't all wasted development time and that the underlying foundation is one that they can use to improve how the queue works in terms of the social impact.
i.e.--
- let us enter missions and get zapped out of them if in the queue.
- let us join trials already in progress--but maybe give a trial leader the option to "lock" (and subsequently "unlock") a trial so no-one new can join it--one extra button for the league leader to manage
- reconsider the social engineering of the queue so it is more likely to create some 12-16 person Lambdas and closer to full BAFs when it draws from players queueing
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I think it's getting high time we got a voting system in place. So I say when the minimum number of people for a Trial is reached, let them all vote to start. Then add more and more weight to each vote the more people you get. Off-the-cuffs example:|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
i.e.--
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With a Trial 12/24 people, require 11 votes to start. With a trial that's 23/24 people, require just three. League Leader would always get the option to veto any voting decision, of course, as well as make executive decisions without need for approval.
The reason for this is so that players control when the raid starts, rather than an arbitrary timer.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And you did that while this was shiny and new. Try going that again a year from now when this has gone the way of AE and PvP.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
False.
I ran 2 completely full pre-formed BAFs last night on Pinnacle. Pinnacle is far from the busiest of servers. And there were more forming when I logged out for the night. Saying it would fail without the queue is just silly, since it takes 3-4 times longer to get in one through the queue than it does by figuring out which zone people are forming them up in and going there. (Usually Pocket D or RWZ, because the trials are co-op) From what I've seen, the queue is where the majority of the fail lies in this system. |
In the replies above nobody addressed the core of my OP. Why the matching of higher level requiring more people on all TFs? Why can't we have some high level content built for small teams, and more low level content built for big ones (The hollows trial is the only one I can think of)? It is easier to build groups at lower levels since people can examplar. It is harder to build groups at higher levels, especially for casual or semi-casual players on smaller servers.
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Ah, your initial complaint framed things in an "thematic" way (why does this make sense to a hero) rather than a "design" way (why this makes sense from a game), so many of your responses were framed similarly. |
Originally Posted by Adelie
In the replies above nobody addressed the core of my OP. Why the matching of higher level requiring more people on all TFs? Why can't we have some high level content built for small teams, and more low level content built for big ones (The hollows trial is the only one I can think of)? It is easier to build groups at lower levels since people can examplar. It is harder to build groups at higher levels, especially for casual or semi-casual players on smaller servers.
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This is a gripe of mine as well-- I often duo's with my wife and we have one high-performance PC and one rather anemic one. Small groups work best for us. Many of the larger-group task forces just don't run well for us.
Let's not forget, though, that this is REALLY a small subset of content. Practically all of the story arcs are solo-capable, and the total number of arcs is far more than the total number of task/strike forces and trials. That's a sizable chunk of content that's still VERY solo-friendly. I also suspect that we'll see a new zone for the upper levels that'll be virtually all solo-based content soonish(tm).
As for why: well,
1)there's a limit to how well you can autoscale content and keep it balanced. At the lower levels, you generally try to have wide margins of error, as the players are often still learning and builds aren't fully realized or optimized. At the higher levels, you're preparing content for more experienced players and more complete builds. As they're more tightly-defined, you need more tightly-defined encounters to have a chance at challenging them. A group of foes that is a viable enemy for a group of 4 heroes isn't necessarily viable when you double it for a group of 8... and sometimes it can be scale to be too much. By making a mandatory team size, you're reducing that variability and making it more likely you can strike that critical balance.
2) You're also increasing replay-ability, in theory. Encouraging more players encourages more variety in potential archetype combinations that can be used to take on the challenge. You may need entirely different tactics to take on the challenge without a solid brute... or an all-illusion-controller team... or a team with only bubblers (nobody with a dedicated heal) or no strong debuffer. Each comes with its own challenge. (Sure, doing it with fewer teammates would also increase variations, but see above about assuring a specific margin of challenge).
3) Finally, MMO designers have a 'retention' goal, and studies have shown that one of the biggest reasons for sticking with an MMO is 'community' -- this was a bit of a bigger factor than 'new stuff to do.' They want you to stick around, so it's in their interest to get you engaged with others. Part of that can be from teaming with other people, part of that can be in socializing during downtime... and assembling larger teams for task forces often requires a bit more "downtime" than running solo. By putting larger team requirements near the end of the game-- where players are getting close to having consumed much of the "new stuff" you have-- you're involved in a last-ditch effort to engage that person in the community and keep them as a paying customer long after the "newness" is gone.
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Yeah, it's a right shame that nobody ever runs the ITF anymore since it's a year old.
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Originally Posted by Adelie
And you did that while this was shiny and new. Try going that again a year from now when this has gone the way of AE and PvP.
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I know what you mean. I really miss the Mothership raids... they were so fun... so memorable. I did so many of them back in the day.... Makes me feel like Issue 10 was just last week.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yeah, it's a right shame that nobody ever runs the ITF anymore since it's a year old.
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Originally Posted by Adelie
In the replies above nobody addressed the core of my OP. Why the matching of higher level requiring more people on all TFs? Why can't we have some high level content built for small teams, and more low level content built for big ones (The hollows trial is the only one I can think of)? It is easier to build groups at lower levels since people can examplar. It is harder to build groups at higher levels, especially for casual or semi-casual players on smaller servers.
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The idea that there are more lower level characters at this stage in the game's life is becoming obsolete. For example, I have more 50's than everything else put together, and I'm far from the only one. It's very easy to go steaming through the lower levels as you gain XP, so you're not hanging around those low levels as long unless you choose to, whereas there are more people in the 40s because it takes longer to level at that range.
There are also plenty of folks that are running high level TFs with small groups, duos, or even solo. You don't need a full team, just a full group of fillers, which isn't that hard to find, comparatively.
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Same here |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
I have more 50's than everything else put together
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
You don't count, GG.
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This is something of a psychological pitfall, in that if handled irresponsibly, it can do more damage than good. Allow me to explain.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
MMO designers have a 'retention' goal, and studies have shown that one of the biggest reasons for sticking with an MMO is 'community' -- this was a bit of a bigger factor than 'new stuff to do.' They want you to stick around, so it's in their interest to get you engaged with others. Part of that can be from teaming with other people, part of that can be in socializing during downtime... and assembling larger teams for task forces often requires a bit more "downtime" than running solo. By putting larger team requirements near the end of the game-- where players are getting close to having consumed much of the "new stuff" you have-- you're involved in a last-ditch effort to engage that person in the community and keep them as a paying customer long after the "newness" is gone.
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A large part of "social" retention does indeed centre around making friends and seeking to be with friends. After all, we want to be with the people we like, even if they aren't always doing the things we'd want to do. The person, in thee cases, is more important than the activity.
I feel that an equally large part, however, also centres around the need to belong to something larger than yourself. I'd call it "herd instinct," but that's insulting and I don't want it to be. I don't want to call it "community instinct" since that's a bit more credit than I want to give it. In general, people need to feel that they're accepted, that they're "normal" and that there are others like them out there. MMOs are a great tool to foster that kind of emotion.
However, it's very important to foster that emotion without assuming that this is a MANDATORY part of social interaction. An MMO which gives you the tools and opportunities to belong is a great thing. An MMO which treats you as an outcast unless you belong to "the community," on the other hand, is a very alienating thing in the long run, especially for people who - like me - are by nature much more private than that.
There's this idea that if you FORCE people to cooperate, they will grow a sense of camaraderie and grow fond of each other, when in fact the opposite is also very possible - that people will resent each other and be turned off the game as a whole. I know a thing or two about how easy it is for a series of bad interaction events to make one view "the community" as horrible, unfriendly and unpleasant, and all it takes two or three persistent jerks.
I feel that MMOs which seek to retain players solely or even primarily on the quality of the personality of other players are making a mistake. In my eyes, a "live and let live" approach is much more profitable. We've seen time and again how people say "If I have to solo for more than a few missions, I go find another game to play," so we know there will always be a drive to team even absent of circumstances. Encouraging taming, even mandating it from time to time, is indeed a good thing, but leaving an out for people who don't want to "belong" and don't really need the company of others so much as they need a decent game is a definite must.
To give some context, City of Heroes' 1-50 game has about the right balance. If one were so inclined, one could do almost everything alone. Missions can be soloed, there are plenty of ATs that can play by themselves without much trouble, most rewards are there for the taking. There really is nothing to worry about. But if one were to hop on a team, then everything is easier, everything is faster, the dynamics of the game become more complex and many other things are improved. Incentive exists, but not in the form of mandate. In short, perfect balance.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sure. |
Originally Posted by Adelie
And you did that while this was shiny and new. Try going that again a year from now when this has gone the way of AE and PvP.
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There will ALWAYS be people with level 50 characters that want to get Incarnate abilities on them.
Are you suggesting that a year from now no one will have a new level 50 to get Incarnate abilities on?
Or are you suggesting that the end game people have been waiting on for 7 years will fizzle out after a few months?
You seem convinced that the Incarnate trials are just a fad and people will stop doing them after a while. I emphatically disagree with that. I think there will always be people willing to run these, especially if it is set up in such a way that you need to run these 2 to unlock the 4 slots we got in I20.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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There's a bit of a difference. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yeah, it's a right shame that nobody ever runs the ITF anymore since it's a year old.
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I'd say the person complaining is a bit off - because, unless the devs introduce a new "currency" for the last five slots (they'd never do THAT, now, would they... nah, they hate introducing new currencies....) people will still be working on them - and having a few more trials in rotation could keep them fresh.
Plus, of course, we don't have a finite supply of 50s. Even if everyone today filled out every slot - let's call it a server glitch, every 50 has every tier of every power available to slot and all the slots unlocked - there'll be more 50s.
On the other hand... the ITF gives a very generic currency (reward merits) that can be indirectly traded by turning them in for recipes and the like. Incarnate "rewards" are tied solely to the character earning them. Once I have my Omega Supreme Zomg Uberpower, what use do I have for the trials any more? I can't run it on a character that's strong on them to give a "weaker" character a boost. I can't put Threads on the market. So there's more reason to keep running an ITF, even for someone who's not an altaholic.
I do see their point, though. The devs chase after new shinies like a dog after a rubber ball, and I do expect to see attention on this fade. It's the big thing now. Remember when AE was the big thing? We'd only have a few slots, but it didn't matter because the devs would pick arcs and free up slots, etc, etc, etc? When's the last time that happened? And there's the statement from War Witch herself about essentially not wanting to deal with "old" stuff to add to or revamp (like Dark Astoria) and just keeping adding "new" - which leaves the game really fractured and leaves systems behind to rot.
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In the same way that praetoria isn't crowded like it was on opening weekend.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Are you suggesting that a year from now no one will have a new level 50 to get Incarnate abilities on?
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Hmm.... The perception of emptiness in one of three starting areas for alts, consisting of three zones that can be completed in under 20 hours of play.... and most of that time is in instances... compared to two trials, accessible regardless of the zone you're in, that are the only path to advance level 50's, with said advancement potentially taking much more than 20 hours (even more, if you want to unlock multiple options in your incarnate and have the flexibility to take on different threats).|
Originally Posted by rsclark
In the same way that praetoria isn't crowded like it was on opening weekend.
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Not the best comparison.
This is something that has always struck me with City of Heroes, right from the start. Why does the required number of heroes to run a TF go up as the level requirement goes up, even though there are more players at the lower levels (this has become less true has time has gone by but still the point stands, especially since higher level characters can examplar).
Now with the raid content, we are expected to find not just a full team of players to start it but multiple full teams of players. Thank goodness for the new team formation que thing. Without this this would fail completey on all but the busiest servers. It still may as time goes by and the novelty wears thin.
I always thought it was kind of odd that Positron can be done with so few heroes and yet all (or most) of the level 40+ TFs require 8 players. Should you not feel MORE super as your career progresses and not less so? You get more powers and get better rounded, etc. Controllers get pets later on in their careers for example and would be more able to solo or small team content, and yet the solo or small team focussed stuff is designed for the low level characters?
It just all seems very backwards to me.