Oedipus_Tex

Just about every world domination strategy game ever. If you let the enemy conquer too much territory, you're dead.

I doubt it would be the graphics causing server side lag. If Destiny is the culprit, it's probably the fact that it has "tiered" levels of effect. Some of the Destiny powers cause somewhere around 30-50 effects to be placed on every player and pet in the area.

IMO if Destiny is the culprit, the powers probably should be "my team only" like the Leadership-type powers now are.

I have mixed feelings about whether it's "broken" or not. Using the target character's ToHit roll is weird but not necessarily awful. I personally don't have a problem with some low level enemies still being dangerous, perhaps sometimes even more dangerous to very high characters than low ones by "tapping into the power of the target and reflecting it back at them" or what have you. Most of the game does try to keep enemies on a very predictable leveling ladder, but leveling ladders lead to deadlands once the mobs turn gray.

Harsh penalties for death were the original status quo for RPGs in general, whether it was tabletop or electronic. In part this was because earlier games were often more concerned with creating "adventures" than a "combat game" like most MMOs have evolved into. Tabletop games also had a GameMaster to directly mediate them, and "combat" was much less frequent. (You can see this at work in some of the older electronic RPGs that converted tabletop rules--1 minute in, you get flattened, because what would take 10 minutes to resolve in a table session flies by when the computer takes over. You also end up fighting more enemies in electronic games--the usual XP conversion rate from table to elec is around 5-10% of the table version's value for the same enemy.)

Over the years death penalties have gradually rolled further and further back. There is a lot that could be said about this, but one thing I think that we have to keep in mind that when you create a harsh death penalty you are making a statement about the fairness of character balance. A very punishing system puts pressure on power designers to get their powers exactly right, because players who fail are going to often blame that first. In a game like City of Heroes were the design goal is essentially to keep players at it by giving them tons of choices, harsh penalties could partially work against that.

I just got out of another brawl about a powerset that was "overall superior" to another, so I'm not keen to go back to battle just yet. I will say though that I agree with Local Man. There is no "overall superior" APP (or powerset for that matter). They are too different from each other to measure heirarchaly.

Sorry, not being flippant. Something about the way I write comes off that way. I wish I could say it's because English is a second language, but I actually have an undergrad degree in English, so no dice there. I don't mean to be disrespectful. I actually sort of enjoy these sorts of debates. I apologize if I came across too harshly.

Anyway, if you ever want to team with me on Virtue and meet the various Ice and Earth (and Elec and Mind and Fire and all those others) send a tell my way. I promise I'm a lot milder in person.

Fixed that for you.

I am pretty much done talking about this. I don't know what to say at this point except that I will try to suck more with my Ice characters in order to meet expectations. No harm done in any case.

Are you talking about "slow" or -Recharge? Or both? If it's -Recharge, this is a very complicated topic. Suffice it to say that tanking Recharge and keeping it tanked are two different things. You are also assuming that every enemy is going to be kind enough to stand conveniently in your auras.


I was talking about Arctic Air.


This is why I didn't compare VG to Glacier. VG and Glacier have almost nothing in common except that 1) they are both technically holds and 2) they have the same recharge. VG is essentially an immobile version of AA on a 240 second timer, with some tweaks here and there. The one specific thing VG does not do well is break an alpha, exactly like AA. Glacier, in contrast, is a perfect alpha breaker if you are confident enough to use it that way. It is not as available as Stalagmites but VG is not as available as AA.

And to point out a specific advantage of AA: there is no lost opportunity cost. There is never a group where you will say "Maybe I should save this for the next group," because it is always there. I do not think that this makes Ice "better" or "superior" or whatever else. It is just a fact about the set.

[PS I wonder if at some point we will end up bringing up Electric Control. If Ice Control is significantly underperforming it, IMO buffing it and leaving Electric where it is would probably just create new fodder for argument. I also wonder whether Ice would be rated better if you could see enemy recharge tanking like you can their endurance bar.]

Do you mean the statement about people trying to use Shiver in place of Arctic Air? That wasn't meant to be a dig. Many people try to replace Arctic Air with Shiver. When Ice characters join my team, there are usually about 50% odds they don't even have AA. To me this is like a Fire Controller without Flashfire.


No insult implied. I don't think either set is superior. Both characters do things the other can't.


This is not how I look at it. IMO the relationship between the two sets is a lot more complex. Roughly speaking, though, you can eyeball it like this:

Ice Slick <----> Earthquake
Arctic Air <----> Volcanic Gasses
Glacier <----> Stalagmites
Shiver <----> Quicksand
[-Recharge, Slow] <----> [-Defense]
Jack Frost <----> Stoney
LOLFlash Freeze<---->LOLSalt Pilars

Now, you can say that "Earth's Stalagmites is up more than Ice's Glacier, that makes it better."* But Ice can say "Arctic Air is up more than Volcanic Gasses, that makes it better." Of course this isn't completely heirarchal. Volcanic Gasses is at its best when you can stand in one place for a while and Arctic is at its best when you are defeating groups faster than VG's recharge. Arctic is a confusion power that adds to your damage and VG is a hold that stacks easily. AA is endurance intensive and tends to drop when mezzed, and VG is immobile. AA can slot a ridiculously powerful Confusion proc and VG can slot damage procs. It goes on and on.

[Note that Shiver, to me, is a bit of a fringe power. I have never viewed it as a replacement for a mezz. It is basically a cone version of Quicksand, used as a utility debuff. If a preponderance of Earth trollers were skipping VG for Quicksand, I'm guessing there'd be a lot more dead Earth characters. FWIW most of my Ice characters do not keep Shiver at high levels, though it's a power I'm always a little hesitant to drop.]

I also don't see Ice's slows as redundant. What I see them as is a bonus you get just for bothering to show up. The slows are a big part of why I can often spend less time controlling than blasting at stuff. They more or less take care of themselves automatically. That said, it takes about -150% Recharge to tank a +4 enemy's recharge rate at x4 slower than normal, so it's not quite as redundant as it may seem, especially as you are leveling up.

Anyway, I think at this point we've successfully thread jacked the original intent. I didn't think the original conversation was supposed to be around whether Ice needed a buff or not but whether the OP should continue playing his/her Ice character. I say yes, its worth it, others say the set is too poor. We all have our own experiences with the set. Mine have been generally positive. The only set I have some reservations about is Gravity. If I upset anyone with my frankness, just know that I think slower than I type.


[*Addendum: I realize I am probably jumping into a pit by saying Glacier is comparable to Stalagmites due to the recharge differences in these powers. It is worth noting, however, that Earth doesn't have a standard AoE hold, having traded it for VG. Ice dropped it's "Stalagmites-like" power to get both a VG-like pulse patch and an AoE hold in one set. Glacier (like Cinders) is a monster of a power with an enormous size, covering over 1000ft more area than comparable ranged holds. It is not an "every spawn" power, but with the right build it is up every 60 seconds. I am not saying they are exactly comparable, because they aren't, but I also see this as a Seeds of Confusion <> Mass Confusion situation where the whole story is not told on a power by power basis, particularly due to Ice's debuff secondary effect.]

Ok, I understand. I apologize if I was too reactionary. I think we are both right in our own way.

I don't believe IOs are irrelevant. I believe that sets should be "balanced" without them, but also that when discussing the "actual" performance of a powerset that they are at least a partial consideration. It's not possible to play a powerset as the developers intended them, only as they are. I don't think developers intended Illusion Control to solo GMs. But many of them can, and that's a relevant observation to me. I still don't feel like Ice Control is in dire shape outside of IOs, but I at least see where you are arguing from.




If what I posted came across as "I'm the best Ice player ever and everyone else sucks" then you are correct, that is not what I meant to say. However, I don't really know what alternative I have available than to report my actual experiences with the set. If someone says they think Ice is weaker than Earth, but I feel like I get the same performance from both of them, I don't feel like saying that is overstepping a boundary. If I am guilty of painting with a broad brush as you describe, then I feel that so is everyone else who has said that Ice Control is unarguably one of the worst control sets. I don't feel that it's controversial to say that one's opinion of a set depends on the actual experiences you've had with it.

FWIW, I don't think Ice is "superior" to Earth Control. I think it is different, but still effective. Earth and Ice are the only two control sets that even get an every-spawn knockdown patch and a mezz patch with unbreakable mezz type (Electric gets the sleep mezz patch but it is broken easily). Ice is also one of only two sets that gets a secondary effect relevant to control (Electric being the second; the -Defense is Earth is helpful but not a "control"). The competition is not "vertical," it's "horizontal," meaning that each does its thing differently enough that it's easy to find situations where any of them are among the best or the worst.

As to the thread I posted asking whether the set needed a buff, it is worth noting that the set received a virtual one from the wide availability of mezz protection and recharge (to make it perma) that came with incarnate content.


EDIT: Also should add that Electric is as much a sister set of Ice as Earth is. Both have a secondary effect that is a form of control, both spend a deal of time in melee, both require a bit of set up time to break an alpha, and both have a somewhat questionable pet (although this is pretty much true of all the control sets except Earth and maybe Fire).

I agree that Earth and Ice are sister sets. My first serious Controller was an Earther, and I played him to around level 36 or so. Then I rolled an Ice sometime later. I ended up posting a rant on the boards at that time about how bad Ice was and how it didn't live up to Earth. I was going to abandon the character.

But something happened. I started paying more attention to what was going on with the powers, using Glacier more aggressively, and pushing the character into situations the Earth character kept dying. And then suddenly the Ice character was level 50, my first character to get there. And now here I am with 3 Ice Control characters at 50, and 2 Earthers, plus the Earther I am leveling up now. If everything that is said about Ice Control were true, the current Earther should be stomping the Ice's performance, but that just isn't happening, just like it didn't before once I figured out what to do.

I mean, if Ice Control suddenly gets buffed I wouldn't say no to it. God knows someone outdid themselves finding ways to make that sleep power suck. But I also think at least part of the problem is the players. The sheer number of people I see trying to use Shiver in place of Arctic Air is Exhibit A.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here. For what its worth, I think you are overvaluing what defense bonuses will do for you. Having IOs does not make any powerset "more or less irrelevant for most content." You are not going to strap on IOs and go solo at x8 without additional damage mitigation. In the case of Ice Control specifically, extra defense is synergistic in the sense that it lets you traipse through melee range more easily. I apologize if I am misreading your argument, but you seem to be saying either "IOs fix everything" or "IOs boost all characters exactly equally," and I don't agree with either statement.


I have three Ice Control characters. The Ice Dominator is a recent addition. He ended up passing up my Plant Dominator because he was just generally more effective for me. The other Ice characters are two and two and half years old or so, one of them being my first 50. The Ice/Rad troller and Ice/Fire Dom are among the characters I chose to make incarnates, partly because few other people seem to play Ice, and partly because they get the job done just as well as any other character I have, and both of them outperform my Scrapper in various ways.

In any case, the specific level range that is most difficult for me to play Ice is around 30-40, where enemies are loaded with mezzes and Dominators don't have perma-dom, and Controllers don't have Indom Will. Getting mezzed really is a serious irration, but a fixable one. I do think it's maybe a bit over the top, which is why the one major change I suggested was dropping the recharge on AA in recognition of the fact that it will get detogged.


This is a real head scratcher for me. Maybe one time in three years have I ever used a pet as an alpha breaker. Maybe I will make a video some time showing how to survive with Ice Control. Charging in like a canon ball isn't the way to do it (unless Glacier is up).

If you mean the rationalization that splitting the player base into two factions that never see each other was a huge mistake, then you are correct. Pretty much everything that has come over the past few years has been more or less working toward undoing the state of affairs that City of Villains ushered in.

I think this is true only if you build in a misguided way. Your IO choices should complement your power choices. That means lots of recharge and accuracy to boost your actual powers, not just +defense. My specific build goals have been enough recharge to achieve perma mezz protection, coupled with capping to at least one defense type (preferably Ranged, supported by Slash/Lethal resistance armor and Tough). You don't "need" IOs necessarily, but they are not just a side show. They are an intricate part of building the character, and Ice Control, like any other set, responds uniquely to certain configurations.


I don't think alpha control is something Ice Control is likely to get. As it is, solo, most of this is solved by corner-casting Ice Slick or racing in and popping Glacier, especially once you reach higher levels.


IMO like most of the control sets, Ice Control is simply different on a Controller, not really better or worse. It's hurt less by lacking Domination because -Recharge and knockdown ignore boss level protection, but it also has no mezz protection at all until the 40s. The damage is also outrageously low early on, easily among the lowest in the game prior to acquiring epic powers. There is also a conflict between Containment from immobilizes and knockdown in Ice Slick.


Domination is incredibly useful to Ice Dominators. Domination dropping is probably the #1 source of deaths on my Ice dom simply because I rely on it for mezz protection to keep AA running. AA makes a ridiculous difference in survivability. They could make Domination effect the mag of the Confusion in AA... but they'd be insane. That power is mostly what allowed me to get from level 47 to 50 in about two hours solo. Let me put it this way. What other power has no real target cap, no cast time (unless you get detoggled), makes enemies hit each other, and will reaffect enemies almost instantly if they die and rezz?

With the right timing, you can also "chain knockup" someone. You'll sometimes see it happen with groups of Mind or Gravity characters spamming Levitate and Lift, sending the enemy flying two or three times higher than expected.

It sounds like what you are saying is people are imagining that their characters don't die and the powers that contribute to that outcome. IMO that's a very bold statement and not really supported by my experience. I have other Dominators and Controllers I can compare my 3 lvl 50 Ice Control characters to. The Ice characters have some weaknesses, but also some significant strengths. Among them is something you touched on but didn't extrapolate: because AA moves with you, if the fight really does "only last a few moments" it becomes a total freebie, because you didn't waste any cast time on it.


No, you are playing your Ice Controller/Dominator, who you happen to be able to build for those things and take advantage of whatever powers you have available.

I wouldn't argue against some tweaks to Ice Control's performance, but IMO you are taking it too far.

I agree with you about spamming Frostbite. I just want to add that I consider the power very important for two reasons:
- It's how you set up AoE Containment
- It keeps enemies in place so that you can more safely use Arctic Air for its confusion properties

The knockdown protection in Frostbite lasts just 12 seconds. If you slot the power for range, you can get durations approaching 50 seconds, where the enemies can't move, you get containment, but they still fall.



IMO Arctic Air and Shiver have little in common with each other. They are each comparable to Quicksand and Volcanic Gasses from the Earth set in terms of function. I tend to feel that an Ice Control character who stays exclusively at range is working against the strengths of the set. IMO the reason to consider taking Shiver is to have an option for moments when you are forced back out of pole (not so much "melee") range for safety reasons or when the enemies cover too wide an area to keep all of them in Arctic Air. IMO a pure ranged build bypasses significant opportunities, including the ability to add to its own solo damage with Arctic Air.

[EDIT: In addition, it should be noted that -Recharge has a LOT more utility when used with a Confusion power. That's because -Recharge has little function until enemies use their powers. If you can make most of them use their attacks on each other, you significantly decrease how many shots make it in your direction.]

Note that being that close also puts you into range for Glacier, a power many players use as an "emergency button" that IMO they should as a "because it's up on a fresh spawn" power. Glacier's has a 30ft radius, which is 10ft larger than the ranged holds in other sets. This sounds less impressive than it is until you do the math on it; a sphere with a 30ft radius actually has than three times the volume as a 20ft one, which is why Glacier is able to catch entire spawns in one shot. If you ever get your global accuracy and recharge high enough to have the power up every 60-70 seconds it becomes one of the best powers in the game, both for its size, and for the fact that even on 24-person leagues, the graphic is very communicative and easy to see, unlike any other AoE hold.

The one I posted uses Cardiac and Ageless. However it is very very very very safe in normal content. Not a fast killer, but faster than you might initially think. +2x8 Rikti spawns are cake, albiet cake you take your time to eat.